JA-12

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's more that imbalance is not inherently detremental to enjoyment to some people.

[Balabanto]

I love the JA-12. Yes. The weapon is powerful. Yes, the weapon does a lot of damage. Yes. The weapon is nice.

But.

Invulnerabiity. Impervious to Energy. Whoops. Not that exciting anymore.

Because the same statement can apply to ANY handheld weapon, it's not really a viable argument.

I love this gun because it is out of scope with many of the other rifles in the game and I had to sit down and think about who made it, what it was designed to do, and why. And now that I have my in-game reasons, I am content with the result.

So, basically you're content with the result of a weapon that does 20-65% more damage than every other rifle out there, including plasma casters, has the range of a power-armor or vehicle-scale weapon, and comes with a grenade launcher, great ammo durability, and a pimpin scope....

'just cause?

There's literally no reason that every single infantry guy wouldnt use this weapon. That's a sure sign of imbalance if there ever was one.

Sure there is.

1) This weapon is illegal in the coalition states.

2) Maybe there's a plot point behind it that the players are meant to investigate, discover, and/or pay attention to.

3) Rifts isn't fair. That's right. Rifts...isn't...fair... Says it right in the main book. Not everyone gets their hands on a JA-12. Some do. Some of my players have pried their JA-12s from the cold dead hands of the people who used them against the party. That's fine, too. You need to relax.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

That's fine, too. You need to relax.

You need to check your attitude and assumptions about my state of relaxation.

Sure there is.

1) This weapon is illegal in the coalition states.

What you're deliberately ignoring is that this weapon is so good (literally twice as good in every aspect) that the CS would be using it too.

2) Maybe there's a plot point behind it that the players are meant to investigate, discover, and/or pay attention to.

So the concoction you're trying to sell is there some super-special secret "story" behind a weapon that has its entire backstory laid out in the flavor text?
Not buying.

3) Rifts isn't fair. That's right. Rifts...isn't...fair... Says it right in the main book. Not everyone gets their hands on a JA-12.

What possible reason can there be for that? Its freely available on the open market, produced by just about every manufacturer that isn't the CS.

Some do. Some of my players have pried their JA-12s from the cold dead hands of the people who used them against the party. That's fine, too.

As a guy who actually writes game systems, this excuse is garbage through and through. There's no viable excuse for this thing other than CJ had no grasp of game balance and Kevin's editing practices practically guaranteed it slipped through. If there exists something in a game system that literally is so good that no one ever wants to use, or does use, anything else, it's an imbalance that undermines the integrity of the entire system. Not that Palladium really needed more help in that regard.

[Sureshot]

Like which weapons? Rail-guns that can two-shot players even in post-power-creep body armor? (Enforcer Railgun and its NG equivalent) Rail-guns or main weapons that instantly kill players (this was before the superhero rule) in a single shot (Boom Gun, NG-V7 Hunter Mobile Gun); or heavy missile armaments? Not to mention that every single instance of weapon systems like that has 2-8x the range of anything a PC can carry other than a mini-missile launcher.

If you just going to pick some of the more stronger weapons in the game and then go "see nothing wrong with the damage values" well let me show you a few that are nerfed. The Ultimax Rail gun which is listed as being "one of the more powerful long range rail guns in the world. It has good range yet imo poor damage 1D6 x 10. The size of that railgun it should be at least 2D6 X 10. The Black Night a 35 foot tall robot that has a has a ion cannon that does only 1D6 x 10. The first version of the Triax Devestor a 50 ft tall robot whos main gun does a 1D6 x10. That thing should be doing at least a 4D6 x 10. At least the super cannon on it's back does 2d4 X 10. The enforcer Rail gun considering it's size and that for the longest time was a frontline unit for the CS should have done at least a 2D6 x 10. You are correct that in some instances those weapons can kill a person in body armor in one shot. If a good damage is rolled on the dice roll. I'm not saying everything is out of whack in terms of vehicles and robots. Too many imo just don't make sense to me. I never had trouble with the ranges of weapons. Even if occasionally the ranges are off. It was certain damage vlaues of giant sized weapons that bothers me.

Only later; in the early-game, the few hand-held weapons that did "heavy" damage (1d4x10 - 1d6x10) were short-ranged compared to anything mounted on a vehicle and had bad ammo efficiency. Later, however, yes, the power-creep-splosion proliferated heavy damage man portable weapons, many of which also suddenly got great range and ammo efficiency. Youll notice that they dont really appear in Kevin's work, though - mostly those of others authors. Even the stuff in CWC, while it brought the average damage up (mostly to match/compete with the sudden explosion of super-awesome tech from other authors) kept the original prohibitions against man-portable weapons being awesome damage dealers AND having great range, etc. Most of the CS rifles still have a range under 1600ft, for instance. I attribute this to the way books got/get written at Palladium (reading the horror stories from Coffin and the like, i can now picture quite clearly how this crap happens - particularly how the rules became such a jumbled, unplayable mess) - essentially, there is no "writers bible" available to freelancers/employees, so stuff winds up all over the place and the editing process ("Kevin edits by hand") doesn't catch it reliably.

This we can agree on. Still wish they had implemented some sort of quality control from the start. I like new toys like the next rofts fan. Except I rather not get new toys just for the sake of getting new toys.

I just cant jive the "otherwise the game would slow to a crawl" with the statistics as presented in just about any book. Armed appropriately with decent weapons, most PCs are probably capable of killing 2-3 similarly armored baddies in a single, 15 second round. Robot vehicles are capable of killing players and enemies in one to two actions. That seems quick to me.

Well for me imo the problem with battles taking so long sometimes is that no way to do a critical strike unless a person has the right level in hand to hand. Imo being able to do doulbe dmage should just be a regular feature in the rules. In my games critical strikes can be done at first level. Or if a group fights something with a lot of MDC and they get bad rolls it does take a long time.

I can see it dragging if you were running a Robot/Vehicle-scale Rifts game (I.E. something more like Robotech-a-la-Rifts where all your players are pilots in a mechanized company/platoon/whatever).... because i will agree that most Robots are terribly slow at killing each other.

Again we agree. They made it worse imo with the new edition. More MDC added to almost everything yet weapons did not get a power boost. I'm glad many things carry missles because imo as much as I like Robotech it's not a good fit for a anime style game imo. Most things in anime take 1 or 2 maybe 3-4 hits to blow up. Unless a gm houserules it the weapons are too weak.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

If you just going to pick some of the more stronger weapons in the game and then go "see nothing wrong with the damage values" well let me show you a few that are nerfed.

Just for clarity - 'nerfed' means they were more powerful at some point and then changed to be less powerful. Im a stickler for proper usage. =P

The Ultimax Rail gun which is listed as being "one of the more powerful long range rail guns in the world. It has good range yet imo poor damage 1D6 x 10.

WIth 50% better range than any competing rail gun (i dont consider the Glitter Boy to be a viable portion of any argument, as it is the clear outlier in pretty much the entire game, even higher-power settings like Phase World/TG), i'd say it is exactly as advertised. I dont consider 1d6x10 to be weak - especially when the Ultimax was printed. Average PC body armor back then was in the 55-70 range, meaning that even on average rolls, thats a 2-shot kill... with 50% better range than anything in the field against it.

The size of that railgun it should be at least 2D6 X 10.

Why? And, honestly, it really isn't even that big - not a lot bigger than a C-40R - just a longer rail (and, ergo, longer range). Even if it is bigger, these aren't traditional cannons; bigger does not automatically mean "more damage". Its not like the difference between a 8" deck gun and a 16" battery gun on a Battleship, or anything.

The Black Night a 35 foot tall robot that has a has a ion cannon that does only 1D6 x 10.

Again, with a range that puts every other Ion canon on the market to shame (4000ft!); Size doesnt automatically equate to more damage.

The first version of the Triax Devestor a 50 ft tall robot whos main gun does a 1D6 x10. That thing should be doing at least a 4D6 x 10.

Why, just because it is big? 1d6x10 from a single blast is pretty freaking impressive damage. Couple that with its absurd range (8000ft!) and it is still a good weapon. Had i written it, i might have written at 2d4x10, but no higher. We're stuck on the "its bigger, so it must do much more damage" trope; energy weapons have virtually nothing in common with big-bore slug guns. Bigger doesnt always (or even mostly, it seems) mean way more damage.

The enforcer Rail gun considering it's size

Marginally bigger than a C-40R and mountable on a truck? The Enforcer is tiny for a robot, remember. Its even got a foot soldier for scale. It is maybe.. .30% bigger than the C-40R, and does 50% more damage. I think we're good.

and that for the longest time was a frontline unit for the CS should have done at least a 2D6 x 10.

Remember that even as of RMB, the Enforcer was an aging design, that they had been using for decades.

You are correct that in some instances those weapons can kill a person in body armor in one shot. If a good damage is rolled on the dice roll.

For a lot of the weapons i listed, like the NG Railgun on the Hunter Mobile Gun, for instance, it isn't even a "good roll" - its like 40% of the time against PCs of the era (80 MDC heavy armor, remember). Less now, but that was bound to happen when the mudflation set in.

I'm not saying everything is out of whack in terms of vehicles and robots. Too many imo just don't make sense to me. I never had trouble with the ranges of weapons. Even if occasionally the ranges are off. It was certain damage vlaues of giant sized weapons that bothers me.

You just have to accept that energy weapons are nothing like, not even remotely similar, to the universally shell-based weapons we use now. Railguns arent very similar either (dont even get me started on how goofy Rifts Railguns are anyway - bursts? the whole design of rail guns is heavy damage, high-speed, dense slug single shots). Mass of the projectile and available power matter WAY more for a railgun than its size. Power most of all. I'd say that Rail Gun damage in Rifts is probably held back by the power needs of the guns - they simply cant afford to juice them up higher without massive power installations (edit: and FAR better heat dissipation - both on the rails and the capacitor/electromagnet rings).

Energy weapons... have even less. Whereas in a shell-based cannon, the bigger the bore/gun, the more propellant you can use (and therefore more range), and the bigger the shell you can fire (and thefore, can pack more explosive/warhead into it) the more range and damage it does. Energy weapons... all of that is meaningless. its all about available power, mostly, and being able to efficiently transfer that power into the desired energy form. While some laser weapons put out equivalent damage per character action, almost none put out the damage per shot of that super-laser on the Devastator, making it provably a far more powerful weapon. It isn't until we see the CS using a similar weapon (and one they might even have received FROM Triax) on their tanks and robots that anyone fielded anything similar. I attribute the huge size of the gun to the energy storage (50 shots of 1d6x10 per shot + 8000ft of range) and massive lensing apparatus required to make that thing shoot 8000ft before the beam loses cohesion.

Well for me imo the problem with battles taking so long sometimes is that no way to do a critical strike unless a person has the right level in hand to hand. Imo being able to do doulbe dmage should just be a regular feature in the rules. In my games critical strikes can be done at first level. Or if a group fights something with a lot of MDC and they get bad rolls it does take a long time.

For me, its late and im heading to bed, so i cant check this..... but a natural twenty is ALWAYS a critical strike, as far as i can remember. Maybe i was taught wrong when i first learned palladium way back when, but im as sure as i can be without looking it up.

Edit: nvm, i found it in like 10 seconds. RUE, page 343 "A roll of a natural 20 is always a hit and a critical strike unless the defenders also rolls a natural 20 to dodge or parry" - which is exactly how i remember reading the text from the combat section in HU: Revised when i learned Palladium like .. 18 or 19 years ago.

I'm glad many things carry missles because imo as much as I like Robotech it's not a good fit for a anime style game imo. Most things in anime take 1 or 2 maybe 3-4 hits to blow up. Unless a gm houserules it the weapons are too weak.

Well disagree there - what Robotech does is show the difference between the hero (the players) and the extras and illustrates how game mechanics dont exist in-game. Most of the extras get blown away with as little as a single shot from a Battle Pod.. but Rick's VF-1 gets shot full of holes multiple times, as does Max's, and Rick even loses limbs a few times. The MDC values for things are based on Heroes piloting them; it is why i wouldnt hesitate to say to my players (lets say theyre piloting a Skullsmasher, in formation with a few other robots) "The Skullsmasher next to you gets hit head-on by a pair of missiles and is destroyed" - the game stats may not support that unless those were heavy long range missiles, but NPCs dont get the benefit of being PCs. Sometimes they just get shot and die when appropriate.

[Giant2005]

Damage isn't everything but neither is range. Situationally, both are useful.
The problem in Rifts is the tech nations don't seem to realize damage is important and ALWAYs build for range. More reasonably, a Robot should be outfitted with weaker, long range weapons and short-range powerful weapons. They seem to miss that last aspect and don't often build anything more damaging than infantry weapons.

[Sureshot]

honestly the wonky damage values would never prevent me from playing Rifts. Just would love to get some in game reason as to why its all about range with the Rifts tech nations. Usually weapon designers try to design a weapon that has both good damage and range. Not all the time yet most of the time. Just feels like its all about range. For me railguns will always look like this when firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCeCVZqcpnE .

[Zamion138]

honestly the wonky damage values would never prevent me from playing Rifts. Just would love to get some in game reason as to why its all about range with the Rifts tech nations. Usually weapon designers try to design a weapon that has both good damage and range. Not all the time yet most of the time. Just feels like its all about range. For me railguns will always look like this when firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCeCVZqcpnE .

basicly how i see them also....just wish i could get that scope

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

honestly the wonky damage values would never prevent me from playing Rifts. Just would love to get some in game reason as to why its all about range with the Rifts tech nations. Usually weapon designers try to design a weapon that has both good damage and range. Not all the time yet most of the time. Just feels like its all about range. For me railguns will always look like this when firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCeCVZqcpnE .

The military holy grail is the ability to kill/shoot/neutralize your enemy without them being able to reply in kind, thats why range seems like a priority.

Being defeated without being able to respond is a form of defeat in detail.

[Sureshot]

Hey CT if I may ask which products have you published? I know Balabanto has published stuff for Hero Games. Which while I am fan of have not bought his books. I'm asking because it's always good to know about new rpg material on the market

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Hey CT if I may ask which products have you published? I know Balabanto has published stuff for Hero Games. Which while I am fan of have not bought his books. I'm asking because it's always good to know about new rpg material on the market

I've never turned my hand to professional tabletop work. I got out of tabletoping regularly almost 15 years ago in favor of re-enactment and LARPing. I've worked on (and games are being run with) four different LARP systems. Oddly enough, the one i personally played for the better part of 17 years, is also the one im least proud of. Now that i'm out of the LARPing and re-enactment fields (lets hear it for back surgery!) ive been spending more time going back over all of my old tabletop RPG systems.



But ive spent hundreds to thousands of man hours analyzing rules systems, particularly the differences between how a rule looks on paper and how it will actually work when real people are using it. That's the hardest thing for a designer to grasp, in a lot of cases, and usually you have to do all your work and then hand it to someone who never worked on the project -at all- to actually find any problems. You become blind to them when you work on them for so long, and a rule that is very clear to you may be completely unclear to everyone else - since you wrote it, of course you understand it.

I always handed my work to someone who had no experience LARPing at all for an almost-final edit. When an 80 page comes back with multiple notations on every single page, it helps you learn how to critically analyze your own work and that of others.