SLAP rounds in Rifts...

[MurderCityDisciple]

I noticed that you can use High Energy Armor Piercing rounds in Robotech which turns a regular SDC firearm into a hard hitting MDC one...well not that hard hitting, but able to penetrate MDC armor.

Anyway I'm definitely going to be using them in my Rifts game, how about you?

Do you think using HEAP rounds will change the power curve or game dynamics?

I do actually, but in a good way.

[kaid]

I noticed that you can use High Energy Armor Piercing rounds in Robotech which turns a regular SDC firearm into a hard hitting MDC one...well not that hard hitting, but able to penetrate MDC armor.

Anyway I'm definitely going to be using them in my Rifts game, how about you?

Do you think using HEAP rounds will change the power curve or game dynamics?

I do actually, but in a good way.

There are a already MDC ammo upgrades like ramjet rounds and other explosive rounds already in the rifts system. It won't shift to much mainly because if one has the option between an energy weapon or something you need to buy ammo for most will wind up going with the rechargable energy weapons and just use ballistic weapons for specialty uses such as targets immune to energy.

[glitterboy2098]

actually in robotech the terminology is SLAP.. saboted light armor penetrating.
somehow what just boosts the SDC damage a bit in rifts (see the new navy's AP ammo of WB7), inflicts 1D4md per bullet in robotech.

since this makes it way more potent than ramjet ammo, which is more complex, it is best if the the tech remains a robotech exclusive.

[MurderCityDisciple]

I only have a few rifts boks, so I don't have too much to go on. I'm going for all the core books and spreading out from there.

I don't like the idea that if a guy in mdc armor goes into a small town or hamlet, that the locals have no chance against him. A few mdc damage capable townies will make things a big less lopsided.

Thanks for the info.

[glitterboy2098]

ramjet ammo does 3D6x10 sd per round for anything under .30cal, or 1D4md for .30cal and .50cal.

which means an AK47 or M16 can do 3D6x30 on a long burst of 5 rounds, or about 1D4md. at the cost of a couple hundred credits. while 1D4md isn't a lot, it's cheap enough the town could arm most of its people with them, and the combined damage could do quite a bit. for the cost, you can equip an entire squad with AK's plus several magazines of ramjets for the cost of just one cheap MD laser rifle.

[Killer Cyborg]

I only have a few rifts boks, so I don't have too much to go on. I'm going for all the core books and spreading out from there.

I don't like the idea that if a guy in mdc armor goes into a small town or hamlet, that the locals have no chance against him. A few mdc damage capable townies will make things a big less lopsided.

Thanks for the info.

Most wilderness communities have a militia with MDC equipment or some other means to protect themselves from threats (otherwise they wouldn't live very long).

Most wilderness communities have a mega-damage defender of some kind.
This might be a militia.
It might be a champion like a Cyberknight or Glitterboy, or a team of champions.
It might be a monster that the town makes regular sacrifices to, in exchange for mercy and/or protection.
It might be any number of things.
It might be a monster or group of monsters that actively enslaves or rules over the town.
It might be a bandit or a group of bandits that chase off competition in order to prey on the town.
And so on.

[Subjugator]

ramjet ammo does 3D6x10 sd per round for anything under .30cal, or 1D4md for .30cal and .50cal.

which means an AK47 or M16 can do 3D6x30 on a long burst of 5 rounds, or about 1D4md. at the cost of a couple hundred credits. while 1D4md isn't a lot, it's cheap enough the town could arm most of its people with them, and the combined damage could do quite a bit. for the cost, you can equip an entire squad with AK's plus several magazines of ramjets for the cost of just one cheap MD laser rifle.

Um, an AK-47 is .30 cal.

/Sub

[glitterboy2098]

just repeating the Mercenaries distinction. but there is a difference in size between a 7.62x39mm and the rounds used by a .30cal

the 7.62x39mm is also known as .30cal-short, because it's smaller, both in bullet and casing.

pretty sure the .30cal the book meant was actually .308 cal, or 7.62x54mm, which was the caliber the old M1919 machineguns of WW2 were rechambered to fire in the 50's. prior to that they were firing .30-06, or 7.62x63mm.

so the AK has a slightly shorter round.. and the NATO rounds use a bigger casing with more propellant.


comparison
(Note: From left to right 7.62x39mm, .308 Caliber (7.62x54mm), 7.62x54Rmm, .30-06 (7.62x63mm)


the distinction does mean a M-14 would be firing the 1D4md rounds, and could thus perform almost as well as a MD laser rifle at a tenth the cost..

[Snake Eyes]

Two side questions, 1) which book has the ramjet rounds.....

Second question, how do these compare to the microjwt rounds in Aliens Unlimited?

[glitterboy2098]

Ramjet rounds were introduced in the Mercenaries book, https://palladium-store.com/1001/produc ... aries.html

they're basically bullets with hollow tubes inside filled with solid rocket fuel. when fired the fuel ignites and accelerates the bullet up even faster, till they are moving as fast an railgun rounds. since this occures after firing, the recoil doesn't increase much, but it means regular guns can do low amounts of MD on a burst.

[flatline]

For comparison, an APRJ for a shotgun is $20 and does 2D6MD.

--flatline

[Zamion138]

I think i have a new game idea im going to try to float to my table where its rifts where energy weapons are about as common as tank and ramjets and golden age weapon smiths stuff is the norm, ulta low mdc game.

Anyhow. I dont belive we need anouther sdc gun round to do light mdc with ramjets and du/u rounds out there.

[Snake Eyes]

Thanks glitterboy2098.....

[Shark_Force]

For comparison, an APRJ for a shotgun is $20 and does 2D6MD.

--flatline

is that the one from the NG sawed-off gun?

those are nice and inexpensive, and i can't really find any reason it *couldn't* work with a regular shotgun (possibly with some minor tweaks), but there's nothing indicating it can be used other than for that one gun.

still, i'd give good odds that paying an operator to modify a standard shotgun (or a combat shotgun) to be able to fire those rounds isn't too expensive, and they're both inexpensive and versatile, given there's also some nice explosive rounds if you need something to hold off a group of enemies as well.

but yeah, definitely some of the least expensive MD rounds out there, for what they do. about the only way it gets less expensive is if you're using TW weapons and recharging them yourself...

edit: oh, and if gear with no fluff to explain where it comes from is fine, i recommend just picking up the game master's guide. contrary to what the name might have led you to believe, only a small portion is game master advice. there's a section on skills, a section on psionics, a section on equipment by category, like personal weapons, body armour, vehicles, bionics, etc. there's also a listing of OCCs as well. at most, i'd say 25% of the book is GM advice, the rest is full of the other stuff i mentioned.

edit (quoted from the next post)

As I recall the NG shotgun is bored for standard 12 gauge and nothing in the flavor text implies that the gun is made out of any special materials so I don't even require any modification to standard shotguns to use the ammo.

(and back to me)

true, but there's nothing that says it can, either. there could be some special firing method. either way, it can't be too expensive (the whole gun only costs 4k), and is obviously reverse compatible (since the sawed-off can fire standard shotgun shells etc). should probably have a bit more range in standard shotguns though.

[Shark_Force]

edit: bah. waiting for this to get nuked.

(if a mod is wandering by, please delete it).

[Faceless Dude]

For comparison, an APRJ for a shotgun is $20 and does 2D6MD.

--flatline

I don't have books at my fingertips. How does range for the APRJ shotgun rounds compare to the ramjet rifle rounds?

[MikelAmroni]

I use this concept in my own CS games.

Basically the CS SLAP round has a penetrator made of an alloy of Tungsten and Depleted Uranium, with slightly more efficient gun powder to basically match the firepower of ramjet rounds, but give them a relatively hard to reverse engineer ammunition that can only be effectively used by the CS. My game is set 104 PA, so we needed an answer to Immunity to energy that didn't involve railguns (which are not all that common in your average platoon - 8 railguns max, and all of that is in your power armor units). So I had the CS develop a 9.4 x 51 round (based off a big game round), and a 9.4x63 sniper round, with those same advances. The 9.4x51 round does 2d4 MDC per round, 4d6 MDC per 3 round burst for the SLAP version. I have this starting in 103. By mid to late 104 it's reached the standard ToE of army bases everywhere and it's starting to see traction in naval bases. By 105 when the new upgrades roll out, it's right there, standard issue with the energy weapons. In my own internal narrative, this is why the CS was actually able to match Tolkeen's use of immunity to energy. But then I use the CS as I think it was intended, an ultra modern combat force capable of taking down any supernatural threat out there. I don't allow silver versions of the SLAP rounds, however, but the standard rounds (which do 1d4x10 SDC per round, 3d4*10 per 3 round burst) can be made silver like any other ammunition.

http://mastermikel.deviantart.com/art/C ... 7973&qo=16

I also developed stats for what I call the CM-457AR - it's basically a m-4 with a AR457 reciever and uses SLAP and regular versions of 5.7x28mm rounds
http://mastermikel.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d5pf5ge

[Shark_Force]

For comparison, an APRJ for a shotgun is $20 and does 2D6MD.

--flatline

I don't have books at my fingertips. How does range for the APRJ shotgun rounds compare to the ramjet rifle rounds?

not so good*. think it's around 500 feet.

which is actually quite good for a shotgun, never mind a sawed-off shotgun... but nothing near the range you can get with a decent rifle in rifts. still, i don't think you'll beat that cost anywhere.

* i realize that in RL terms, a 500 foot range is nothing to sneeze at, particularly given you'd be looking at accurate range, and especially with a weapon used like a pistol which doesn't even appear to have iron sights, let alone a scope. but of course, this is rifts... your average freshly trained infantryman has a pretty good chance at hitting things between 1500 and 2000 feet away with many weapons, and never you mind just how questionable that is...

[MurderCityDisciple]

I use this concept in my own CS games.

Basically the CS SLAP round has a penetrator made of an alloy of Tungsten and Depleted Uranium, with slightly more efficient gun powder to basically match the firepower of ramjet rounds, but give them a relatively hard to reverse engineer ammunition that can only be effectively used by the CS. My game is set 104 PA, so we needed an answer to Immunity to energy that didn't involve railguns (which are not all that common in your average platoon - 8 railguns max, and all of that is in your power armor units). So I had the CS develop a 9.4 x 51 round (based off a big game round), and a 9.4x63 sniper round, with those same advances. The 9.4x51 round does 2d4 MDC per round, 4d6 MDC per 3 round burst for the SLAP version. I have this starting in 103. By mid to late 104 it's reached the standard ToE of army bases everywhere and it's starting to see traction in naval bases. By 105 when the new upgrades roll out, it's right there, standard issue with the energy weapons. In my own internal narrative, this is why the CS was actually able to match Tolkeen's use of immunity to energy. But then I use the CS as I think it was intended, an ultra modern combat force capable of taking down any supernatural threat out there. I don't allow silver versions of the SLAP rounds, however, but the standard rounds (which do 1d4x10 SDC per round, 3d4*10 per 3 round burst) can be made silver like any other ammunition.

http://mastermikel.deviantart.com/art/C ... 7973&qo=16

I also developed stats for what I call the CM-457AR - it's basically a m-4 with a AR457 reciever and uses SLAP and regular versions of 5.7x28mm rounds
http://mastermikel.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d5pf5ge

HARDCORE!!!

I'm stealing your ideas bro.
Love 'em.
Plus I'm adding some of my own. I might make my version with caseless or semi-caseless ammo.

[flatline]

but of course, this is rifts... your average freshly trained infantryman has a pretty good chance at hitting things between 1500 and 2000 feet away with many weapons, and never you mind just how questionable that is...

It should be easy using laser weapons. Not easy at all with projectile weapons where you have to lead the target, account for the drop of the bullet, and pray that wind doesn't deflect the bullet in flight...

Honestly, I'm not aware of any game system that really accounts for the differences between beam weapons and projectile weapons.

--flatline

[kaid]

It would be interesting to see a system that treated energy and ballistic weapons a bit differently due to how much easier it normally is to hit with an energy weapon as opposed to a ballistic weapon. That said its probably a fun value thing where you would not gain much in the way of fun for the extra complications. Also most of the rifts ballistic weapons are things like ramjets or rail guns. Both are traveling at such high velocity that over 1k-2k feet most have for a range you would have no drop or leading really necessary. Most weaponized rail guns you are looking at muzzle speeds 5 or more times faster than even the fastest high velocity rounds.

So with comprable futuristic ballistic weapons over the short ranges involved with rifts there probably is not much effective difference in difficulty to hit between an energy weapon and the railguns/ramjets.

[camk4evr]

It would be interesting to see a system that treated energy and ballistic weapons a bit differently due to how much easier it normally is to hit with an energy weapon as opposed to a ballistic weapon.

Mekton Z. Ranged energy weapons default at a +1 bonus to hit.

[wyrmraker]

What Robotech book are the HEAP rounds in? All I found were missile warheads.
Unless you're actually talking about LEAP and SLAP rounds.

[MurderCityDisciple]

What Robotech book are the HEAP rounds in? All I found were missile warheads.
Unless you're actually talking about LEAP and SLAP rounds.

Shadow chronicles, or maybe the macross saga book.

Yeah my bad..I got HEAP and SLAP mixed up.

I should fix thread title.

[wyrmraker]

Ah, gotcha.
For the record, SLAP rounds are for regular rifles, from 5.56mm to 14.5mm. LEAP, or Light Explosive Armor Piercing, is for auto-cannons in the 25mm to 78mm variety.
And I don't see any reason why they can't be in Rifts, but that's me.

[green.nova343]

I actually look at the new Robotech SLAP rounds as being roughly equivalent to ramjets; although they're more powerful, they represent a multiplier for the regular round (in this case, x20 for SLAP, x5 for ramjet), with the ability to do Mega-Damage with a single round as well as a burst. LEAP rounds seem to be the same thing, just as explosive/HE rounds in Rifts Mercenaries are as well, but more powerful (again, x20 for LEAP, but only x3 for explosive/HE).

However, if someone thinks that is kind of unfair (especially given that SLAP rounds are nothing more than rifle-sized sabot rounds (like those used on the M1 Abrams' 120mm main gun), you could always change out the multipliers: make HE rounds x5 damage (available for any round, but lighter rounds require a burst to do Mega-Damage), with ramjet rounds doing x20 damage (certain to inflict light Mega-Damage for a single round, but limited to the listed calibers).

So, for example, a 9mm explosive (2D6 S.D.C. base) could now do 1D6x10 S.D.C., with a short -- or, more likely, a long burst -- able to inflict 1 M.D.; a 9mm ramjet could now do 1D3 M.D. for a single round, 1D6 M.D. for a short burst (x2), or 2D4 M.D. for a long burst (x3). The .50-cal, OTOH, would be truly awesome; base 1D6x10 S.D.C. becomes 3D6x10 S.D.C./1 or 1D2 M.D. per round, 1D4 M.D. for a short burst, & 1D6 M.D. for a long burst as explosive round, 2D6 M.D. single/4D6 M.D. short burst/6D6 M.D. long burst as a ramjet round.

Of course, these rounds are much more expensive than standard ammunition, will tend to vaporize most S.D.C. targets, & will most likely get you a short walk to the local detention center at the entrance to Chi-Town, so handle them with care...

[glitterboy2098]

Ah, gotcha.
For the record, SLAP rounds are for regular rifles, from 5.56mm to 14.5mm. LEAP, or Light Explosive Armor Piercing, is for auto-cannons in the 25mm to 78mm variety.
And I don't see any reason why they can't be in Rifts, but that's me.

mostly game balance issues. they offer performance as good as a typical energy Rifle, but at 10 to 100 times less cost. if you put them into RIFTS, there is never a reason for anyone to buy energy weapons.
(heck, you face this same issue in robotech,where the SLAP equipped assault rifles of the UEDF, ASC, and UEEF are much better weapons than most of the non-heavy ASC weaponry.. and the UEEF weapons only have a niche because their protoculture power systems give them absurdly large payloads.)

with Ramjets, the performance is low enough that while they have a niche as a low cost source of MD weapons, there is still a reason to buy the more expensive energy weapons, since they represent a more effective individual weapon.

[Zamion138]

Ah, gotcha.
For the record, SLAP rounds are for regular rifles, from 5.56mm to 14.5mm. LEAP, or Light Explosive Armor Piercing, is for auto-cannons in the 25mm to 78mm variety.
And I don't see any reason why they can't be in Rifts, but that's me.

mostly game balance issues. they offer performance as good as a typical energy Rifle, but at 10 to 100 times less cost. if you put them into RIFTS, there is never a reason for anyone to buy energy weapons.
(heck, you face this same issue in robotech,where the SLAP equipped assault rifles of the UEDF, ASC, and UEEF are much better weapons than most of the non-heavy ASC weaponry.. and the UEEF weapons only have a niche because their protoculture power systems give them absurdly large payloads.)

with Ramjets, the performance is low enough that while they have a niche as a low cost source of MD weapons, there is still a reason to buy the more expensive energy weapons, since they represent a more effective individual weapon.

I suppose you could make them cost more as they "cost more to make in rifts earth" or make them only available in a few place at the normal price and smuggled esle where.

[MikelAmroni]

HARDCORE!!!

I'm stealing your ideas bro.
Love 'em.
Plus I'm adding some of my own. I might make my version with caseless or semi-caseless ammo.

I suggest against using caseless ammo. There's a reason it's not used more often real world

[flatline]

HARDCORE!!!

I'm stealing your ideas bro.
Love 'em.
Plus I'm adding some of my own. I might make my version with caseless or semi-caseless ammo.

I suggest against using caseless ammo. There's a reason it's not used more often real world

For those of us who know little about the pros and cons of caseless ammo, could you please give a brief description of the issues?

--flatline

[MurderCityDisciple]

I would think that in a couple hundred years the issues that caseless ammo have would've been resolved.

Hell, the space marines in Aliens use caseless...that's how they could squeeze 100 rounds into a modified tommy gun stick clip. Yes if you look close enough the pulse rifle is a Tommy-gun.

[glitterboy2098]

HARDCORE!!!

I'm stealing your ideas bro.
Love 'em.
Plus I'm adding some of my own. I might make my version with caseless or semi-caseless ammo.

I suggest against using caseless ammo. There's a reason it's not used more often real world

For those of us who know little about the pros and cons of caseless ammo, could you please give a brief description of the issues?

--flatline

not counting things like cleaning (which is universal for firearms) or the need to eject misfired ammo..

Pro's..
Lighter - brass or steel casings add weight to the complete round, which can really add up in large amounts. caseless ammo tends to be lighter as a result.
size - most caseless ammo uses what is called 'telescoped' ammunition, meaning the propellant is fornmed into a block that surrounds the bullet, instead of just being behind it like with cased ammo. this reduces the overall size of the ammunition, letting you fit more into a given magazine.
shape - since the propellant of caseless ammo is compressed into a block, it can be made into various shaped. rectangular blocks being typical. this lets you more efficiently use magazine space, and lets you use some ammo feeds that don't work with cased ammo as effectively.
power - the telescoped design and optimized shape of the propellant block lets you fit a little extra propellant with the round, letting you gain a bit of extra speed and thus kinetic energy for the bullet. this translates to minor range and/or stopping power advantages. (which many real world designers used to let them fire smaller bullets at the same performance as larger cased ammo)

Con's..
sensativity - the propellant blocks are sensitive to moisture and temperature, far more so than cased ammo. too much humidity or moisture, or too hot or too cold and the ammo will be more likely misfire or not combust completely.
storage - the sensativity to enviromental conditions means the ammo needs to be completely sealed away until it is loaded into the weapon, and once unsealed and loaded it has a lifespan for use. this also means that you hand loading your weapon or magazines greatly increases the chance of misfire or incomplete firing.. since even fingerprints and sweat can cause minor issues. most caseless ammo weapons in real life have used sealed magazines you had to unseal before inserting into the weapon. removing a partially used magazine for a fresh, fully loaded one usually means having to throw the partially used magazine away, since the ammo will have started to absorb moisture once removed, and may be degraded by the time your ready to use it again.
Heat - firing a bullet generates a lot of heat, and in cased ammo most of that is absorbed by the casing that is ejected. in caseless ammo, it's the firing chamber and barrel that absorbs all of it, which can build up quickly and cause internal damage to the weapon. this tends to put limits in the rate of fire, either directly to reduce heat build up, or indirectly due to the need to stop and cool off when it gets too hot. caseless ammo tends to reach these points faster than cased ammo weapons. if you don't deal with the heat, you can end up with ammo cooking off from the heat of the firing chamber as it gets loaded. usually ruining the weapon, and possibly killing the user.
residue - depending on the propellant used and any filler used to help turn it into a solid block, there may be residue left behind from firing. usually this means you just have to clean it more often, but if that residue is still burning or is hot enough, it can cause the next round to ignite as it is loaded. see the above point about harming the user.

there are some ammo types caseless needs special engineering to use with, such as shotgun like ammo, but those aren't really pro's or con's..

hmm.. did i miss anything?

[flatline]

HARDCORE!!!

I'm stealing your ideas bro.
Love 'em.
Plus I'm adding some of my own. I might make my version with caseless or semi-caseless ammo.

I suggest against using caseless ammo. There's a reason it's not used more often real world

For those of us who know little about the pros and cons of caseless ammo, could you please give a brief description of the issues?

--flatline

not counting things like cleaning (which is universal for firearms) or the need to eject misfired ammo..

Pro's..
Lighter - brass or steel casings add weight to the complete round, which can really add up in large amounts. caseless ammo tends to be lighter as a result.
size - most caseless ammo uses what is called 'telescoped' ammunition, meaning the propellant is fornmed into a block that surrounds the bullet, instead of just being behind it like with cased ammo. this reduces the overall size of the ammunition, letting you fit more into a given magazine.
shape - since the propellant of caseless ammo is compressed into a block, it can be made into various shaped. rectangular blocks being typical. this lets you more efficiently use magazine space, and lets you use some ammo feeds that don't work with cased ammo as effectively.
power - the telescoped design and optimized shape of the propellant block lets you fit a little extra propellant with the round, letting you gain a bit of extra speed and thus kinetic energy for the bullet. this translates to minor range and/or stopping power advantages. (which many real world designers used to let them fire smaller bullets at the same performance as larger cased ammo)

Con's..
sensativity - the propellant blocks are sensitive to moisture and temperature, far more so than cased ammo. too much humidity or moisture, or too hot or too cold and the ammo will be more likely misfire or not combust completely.
storage - the sensativity to enviromental conditions means the ammo needs to be completely sealed away until it is loaded into the weapon, and once unsealed and loaded it has a lifespan for use. this also means that you hand loading your weapon or magazines greatly increases the chance of misfire or incomplete firing.. since even fingerprints and sweat can cause minor issues. most caseless ammo weapons in real life have used sealed magazines you had to unseal before inserting into the weapon. removing a partially used magazine for a fresh, fully loaded one usually means having to throw the partially used magazine away, since the ammo will have started to absorb moisture once removed, and may be degraded by the time your ready to use it again.
Heat - firing a bullet generates a lot of heat, and in cased ammo most of that is absorbed by the casing that is ejected. in caseless ammo, it's the firing chamber and barrel that absorbs all of it, which can build up quickly and cause internal damage to the weapon. this tends to put limits in the rate of fire, either directly to reduce heat build up, or indirectly due to the need to stop and cool off when it gets too hot. caseless ammo tends to reach these points faster than cased ammo weapons. if you don't deal with the heat, you can end up with ammo cooking off from the heat of the firing chamber as it gets loaded. usually ruining the weapon, and possibly killing the user.
residue - depending on the propellant used and any filler used to help turn it into a solid block, there may be residue left behind from firing. usually this means you just have to clean it more often, but if that residue is still burning or is hot enough, it can cause the next round to ignite as it is loaded. see the above point about harming the user.

there are some ammo types caseless needs special engineering to use with, such as shotgun like ammo, but those aren't really pro's or con's..

hmm.. did i miss anything?

Thank you! That was far more informative than the wikipedia page.

--flatline

[MurderCityDisciple]

I would think that in a couple hundred years the issues that caseless ammo have would've been resolved.

Hell, the space marines in ALIENS use caseless...that's how they could squeeze 100 rounds into a modified tommy gun stick clip. Yes if you look close enough the pulse rifle is a Tommy-gun.

[Akashic Soldier]

I don't like the idea that if a guy in mdc armor goes into a small town or hamlet, that the locals have no chance against him. A few mdc damage capable townies will make things a big less lopsided.

Neither do they but that is just one of the many horrors of living on Rifts Earth. They can always try overpowering the guy or capturing him in a net (don't laugh, nets work great!). However, short of that he might as well be a god to them (until he needs to get out and go to the gentleman's room - I imagine a lot of bandits die on the toilet in Rifts for that very reason).

I wouldn't worry if something "doesn't seem fair."
As a GM I have learned that sometimes nothing is fair. The trick is just making sure the players can see that happening in game in front of them. Sure you can blow off his head... you could also rape his children and beat his grandmother but the fact is, right now he's fighting to protect his family with that kitchen knife (you can see them cowering in the living room)... what do you do?

[MurderCityDisciple]

I don't like the idea that if a guy in mdc armor goes into a small town or hamlet, that the locals have no chance against him. A few mdc damage capable townies will make things a big less lopsided.

Neither do they but that is just one of the many horrors of living on Rifts Earth. They can always try overpowering the guy or capturing him in a net (don't laugh, nets work great!). However, short of that he might as well be a god to them (until he needs to get out and go to the gentleman's room - I imagine a lot of bandits die on the toilet in Rifts for that very reason).

I wouldn't worry if something "doesn't seem fair."
As a GM I have learned that sometimes nothing is fair. The trick is just making sure the players can see that happening in game in front of them. Sure you can blow off his head... you could also rape his children and beat his grandmother but the fact is, right now he's fighting to protect his family with that kitchen knife (you can see them cowering in the living room)... what do you do?

Oh I already understand KS and Palladium doesn't subscribe to the FOX-ish concept of 'Fair and Balanced' gaming, unbalanced makes total sense. If you had balance you couldn't have the Justice League. There's a huge power gap between Superman and let's say Aquaman.

Lucky for me, my players aren't mad power gamers. In fact completely the opposite, one is playing a Rifts Bard out of one of the Rifters and the other is playing a barmaid who was ripped limb from limb and disemboweled by a special unit of Hunter-Killers and turned into a cyborg against her will. Between the two of them they only have one actual weapon. The girl cyborg isn't a big war-borg, in fact she can pass for human...she's just heavier and faster and has gizmos (totally based on Alita Battle Angel, a 90's manga). The first set-up for my adventure is straight up vengeance. Pure, Simple, Brutal.

[flatline]

Oh, and that same vented plasma makes your position REAL obvious, so no sniping with this weapon either.

You could still snipe with it. Of course, after your first shot, they probably know where you are...

--flatline

[ShadowLogan]

Anyway I'm definitely going to be using them in my Rifts game, how about you?

No, because Rifts has equivelents (Ramjet, Explosive Rounds: Triax Pump Rounds, "Big Bore", etc). The HEAP/LEAP rounds are just explosive rounds (potent for their size) and SLAP really don't have a counterpart in Rifts and as glitterboy2098 suggested, should really stay a RT exclusive. If you need an explanation as to why: Protoculture enhanced materials (explosive or propellant).

I don't like the idea that if a guy in mdc armor goes into a small town or hamlet, that the locals have no chance against him. A few mdc damage capable townies will make things a big less lopsided.

A guy in MDC armor is still vulnerable to certain types of non-MDC attacks and traps. Even falls/impacts can injury someone in MDC Armor. It really requires one to be smart about it.

What Robotech book are the HEAP rounds in? All I found were missile warheads.
Unless you're actually talking about LEAP and SLAP rounds.

HEAP Rounds:
TSC Main Book (pg is Manga, may be different for full-size)
-pg183-184 (M-35, M-37, M-46)
Macross Saga SB:
-pg46/67-8 on the GU-11
-pg83-4/92 Gsh-30-4A1
-Regult/Gluag Battle Pods 22.3mm cannons are HEAP-Z, and not listing each Regult version pg

LEAP Rounds:
Macross Saga SB:
-pg 31/44 on the TZ-IV guncluster
-pg69 LAC-20 20mm Auto-Cannon
-pg81 M-65
-pg118/133-4 M-227
Masters Saga SB:
-pg176-6 M-37, M-35 Ferret, M-33 Tayra

SLAP Rounds:
Macross Saga SB:
-pg 92 GshG-762D
-pg95 GAU-20A1
-pg130 M-21 Assault Rifle
-pg132-3 M-223, M-225, M3A2M
Masters Saga SB:
-pg126-7 M-35 Kodiak .50cal
-pg157-8 HRC-25 Cannon
-pg160 LRC-7 Cannon
-pg183-4 M-25 Wolverine