Silhouettes as a base "race" to be combined with a class???

[Thinyser]

So I love the Silhouette race and was wondering how you treat them when combining them with a class... or if you do not allow that why?

Specifically with a magic using class of some sort, be it a LLW or a Temporal Warrior/Wizard or whatever, do you allow them to have their full compliment of shadow spells and also get the full compliment of spells from the class?

How do you handle starting PPE and PPE increase by level when combined with a magic using class?

Also, on a related but more general note, how do you handle the mixing of RCC and PCC skills?

[Failgoat]

So I love the Silhouette race and was wondering how you treat them when combining them with a class... or if you do not allow that why?

Specifically with a magic using class of some sort, be it a LLW or a Temporal Warrior/Wizard or whatever, do you allow them to have their full compliment of shadow spells and also get the full compliment of spells from the class?

How do you handle starting PPE and PPE increase by level when combined with a magic using class?

Also, on a related but more general note, how do you handle the mixing of RCC and PCC skills?

i think the race is set up pretty well to work without a class. you have 18 skill selections. pretty much gives you the freedom to create a custom class in my opinion and was definitely one of the strongest selling points that got me to make one.

bu if you wanted to combine it with an O.C.C., id replace those 18 skills with the skill set of whatever O.C.C. your taking, not mix or combine. i'd also keep the shadow abilities and replace their small spell repertoire with the spell knowledge of the O.C.C.

iv been wondering if their 1D4x100 starting P.P.E. was a typo or something, seems aweful high.

[DhAkael]

So I love the Silhouette race and was wondering how you treat them when combining them with a class... or if you do not allow that why?

Specifically with a magic using class of some sort, be it a LLW or a Temporal Warrior/Wizard or whatever, do you allow them to have their full compliment of shadow spells and also get the full compliment of spells from the class?

How do you handle starting PPE and PPE increase by level when combined with a magic using class?

Also, on a related but more general note, how do you handle the mixing of RCC and PCC skills?

i think the race is set up pretty well to work without a class. you have 18 skill selections. pretty much gives you the freedom to create a custom class in my opinion and was definitely one of the strongest selling points that got me to make one.

bu if you wanted to combine it with an O.C.C., id replace those 18 skills with the skill set of whatever O.C.C. your taking, not mix or combine. i'd also keep the shadow abilities and replace their small spell repertoire with the spell knowledge of the O.C.C.

iv been wondering if their 1D4x100 starting P.P.E. was a typo or something, seems aweful high.

Not a typo...that's why they are an "OPTIONAL" player class.
Silhouettes are half-elementals so it just stands to reason they'd have an enormous magic reserve. Spells available? not so much, but definately have potential to be kick-bootux spell slingers once they put forth the effort to LEARN and not just evolve their spellz

[Thinyser]

So I love the Silhouette race and was wondering how you treat them when combining them with a class... or if you do not allow that why?

Specifically with a magic using class of some sort, be it a LLW or a Temporal Warrior/Wizard or whatever, do you allow them to have their full compliment of shadow spells and also get the full compliment of spells from the class?

How do you handle starting PPE and PPE increase by level when combined with a magic using class?

Also, on a related but more general note, how do you handle the mixing of RCC and PCC skills?

i think the race is set up pretty well to work without a class. you have 18 skill selections. pretty much gives you the freedom to create a custom class in my opinion and was definitely one of the strongest selling points that got me to make one.

bu if you wanted to combine it with an O.C.C., id replace those 18 skills with the skill set of whatever O.C.C. your taking, not mix or combine. i'd also keep the shadow abilities and replace their small spell repertoire with the spell knowledge of the O.C.C.

iv been wondering if their 1D4x100 starting P.P.E. was a typo or something, seems aweful high.

Not a typo...that's why they are an "OPTIONAL" player class.
Silhouettes are half-elementals so it just stands to reason they'd have an enormous magic reserve. Spells available? not so much, but definately have potential to be kick-bootux spell slingers once they put forth the effort to LEARN and not just evolve their spellz

So what I do since they are "magical beings" is to give them their base 1d4x100 PPE and their shadow spells as inherent abilities and use that as the jumping off point if they want to take a class (I like them as a Temporal Warrior so they have a smattering of shadow spells, time based spells, and combat ability) and then override their RCC skills with the OCC skills since they have trained in that OCC to get their magic and skills. I then use the better PPE progression (which with the Temp Warrior is 10/level and the Silhouette is 3d6/level so its about the same but I just go with the sure thing of 10 PPE /level)
Silhouette+Temporal Warrior= Assassin Extraordinaire

[the Captain]

Silhouette + temporal wizard/warrior gets my vote, a great combo.

[Giant2005]

They are already essentially Ley Line Walkers but if you wanted to change their magical orientation, I don't see an issue with it.
Just remove the Ley Line powers, spells and skills and replace them with the O.C.C. Abilities, spells and skills of whatever O.C.C. Is your preference.
I would personally alter their PPE somewhat too - I'd have them roll their Silhouette PPE, then LLW PPE and then the PPE of whatever O.C.C. They chose. I'd subtract the difference between the LLW PPE and the chosen O.C.C.'s PPE from the base Silhouette PPE (Assuming the LLW has higher base PPE than the chosen O.C.C., if the chosen O.C.C. is higher, add the difference).

Choosing an O.C.C. in such a manner is actually a good move imo, even if you just choose the LLW and don't change much - it fills holes in the character write up which are important like Spell Strength bonuses and starting equipment for one. A character with a PB of 3D6+6 who walks into a rowdy tavern while naked is just begging for trouble.
If you are the GM, you should be very careful about what you allow the player to choose - such a system is very easy to abuse. Using something like the Ninja Techno Wizard so he can double his PPE is an obvious exploit.

[the Captain]

They are already essentially Ley Line Walkers but if you wanted to change their magical orientation, I don't see an issue with it.
Just remove the Ley Line powers, spells and skills and replace them with the O.C.C. Abilities, spells and skills of whatever O.C.C. Is your preference.
I would personally alter their PPE somewhat too - I'd have them roll their Silhouette PPE, then LLW PPE and then the PPE of whatever O.C.C. They chose. I'd subtract the difference between the LLW PPE and the chosen O.C.C.'s PPE from the base Silhouette PPE (Assuming the LLW has higher base PPE than the chosen O.C.C., if the chosen O.C.C. is higher, add the difference).

Choosing an O.C.C. in such a manner is actually a good move imo, even if you just choose the LLW and don't change much - it fills holes in the character write up which are important like Spell Strength bonuses and starting equipment for one. A character with a PB of 3D6+6 who walks into a rowdy tavern while naked is just begging for trouble.
If you are the GM, you should be very careful about what you allow the player to choose - such a system is very easy to abuse. Using something like the Ninja Techno Wizard so he can double his PPE is an obvious exploit.

I kinda think you are over complicating the PPE.

The way I have always run things is that the character just takes whichever is better, ignore the rest. In this case the racial PPE would probably win. All the LLW abilities are racial and would carry over to whatever OCC that player chose. That is precisely why the Silhouette are "optional" and players need to work with their GM when selecting an OCC. GMs that don't pay attention are inviting disaster.

[flatline]

They are already essentially Ley Line Walkers but if you wanted to change their magical orientation, I don't see an issue with it.
Just remove the Ley Line powers, spells and skills and replace them with the O.C.C. Abilities, spells and skills of whatever O.C.C. Is your preference.
I would personally alter their PPE somewhat too - I'd have them roll their Silhouette PPE, then LLW PPE and then the PPE of whatever O.C.C. They chose. I'd subtract the difference between the LLW PPE and the chosen O.C.C.'s PPE from the base Silhouette PPE (Assuming the LLW has higher base PPE than the chosen O.C.C., if the chosen O.C.C. is higher, add the difference).

Choosing an O.C.C. in such a manner is actually a good move imo, even if you just choose the LLW and don't change much - it fills holes in the character write up which are important like Spell Strength bonuses and starting equipment for one. A character with a PB of 3D6+6 who walks into a rowdy tavern while naked is just begging for trouble.
If you are the GM, you should be very careful about what you allow the player to choose - such a system is very easy to abuse. Using something like the Ninja Techno Wizard so he can double his PPE is an obvious exploit.

I kinda think you are over complicating the PPE.

The way I have always run things is that the character just takes whichever is better, ignore the rest. In this case the racial PPE would probably win. All the LLW abilities are racial and would carry over to whatever OCC that player chose. That is precisely why the Silhouette are "optional" and players need to work with their GM when selecting an OCC. GMs that don't pay attention are inviting disaster.

Why is high PPE inviting disaster? With the new rule that you can absorb and hold 2x your max PPE (for a total of 3x your max PPE), any mage can cast talisman with a little effort by mid level. The GM's control over PPE isn't how they prevent disaster, it's accounting for high level spells in their campaign design that prevents disaster since no campaign was ever ruined by a caster with high PPE repeatedly casting low level spells...

--flatline

[Giant2005]

I kinda think you are over complicating the PPE.

The way I have always run things is that the character just takes whichever is better, ignore the rest. In this case the racial PPE would probably win. All the LLW abilities are racial and would carry over to whatever OCC that player chose. That is precisely why the Silhouette are "optional" and players need to work with their GM when selecting an OCC. GMs that don't pay attention are inviting disaster.

Fair enough on the PPE but I most certainly wouldn't let someone change the magical orientation of a Silhouette and keep the Ley Line Walker powers. That is pure munchkinism.
That is giving them everything that a LLW has in addition to whatever OCC they choose when by default, they only get one. If there is no opportunity cost, a Silhouette would be stupid to take their default LLW training when they can have the best of both worlds.

[Nightmask]

I kinda think you are over complicating the PPE.

The way I have always run things is that the character just takes whichever is better, ignore the rest. In this case the racial PPE would probably win. All the LLW abilities are racial and would carry over to whatever OCC that player chose. That is precisely why the Silhouette are "optional" and players need to work with their GM when selecting an OCC. GMs that don't pay attention are inviting disaster.

Fair enough on the PPE but I most certainly wouldn't let someone change the magical orientation of a Silhouette and keep the Ley Line Walker powers. That is pure munchkinism.
That is giving them everything that a LLW has in addition to whatever OCC they choose when by default, they only get one. If there is no opportunity cost, a Silhouette would be stupid to take their default LLW training when they can have the best of both worlds.

Going a bit overboard to call it munchkinism, pure or otherwise. Not like the LLW natural abilities are anything you can call a game breaker by any stretch of the imagination. Also it's only from a meta-game perspective to insist that a Silhouette would be stupid to not take both if the option was available. People don't grow up thinking 'oh gee how can I get the maximum benefits out of life, I know I'll learn this and this!', and lots of people for one reason or another don't chose to get the best combos like that either.

[Thinyser]

I kinda think you are over complicating the PPE.

The way I have always run things is that the character just takes whichever is better, ignore the rest. In this case the racial PPE would probably win. All the LLW abilities are racial and would carry over to whatever OCC that player chose. That is precisely why the Silhouette are "optional" and players need to work with their GM when selecting an OCC. GMs that don't pay attention are inviting disaster.

Fair enough on the PPE but I most certainly wouldn't let someone change the magical orientation of a Silhouette and keep the Ley Line Walker powers. That is pure munchkinism.
That is giving them everything that a LLW has in addition to whatever OCC they choose when by default, they only get one. If there is no opportunity cost, a Silhouette would be stupid to take their default LLW training when they can have the best of both worlds.

Going a bit overboard to call it munchkinism, pure or otherwise. Not like the LLW natural abilities are anything you can call a game breaker by any stretch of the imagination. Also it's only from a meta-game perspective to insist that a Silhouette would be stupid to not take both if the option was available. People don't grow up thinking 'oh gee how can I get the maximum benefits out of life, I know I'll learn this and this!', and lots of people for one reason or another don't chose to get the best combos like that either.

I have to agree. They are powerful but not munchkin and the LLW abilities are due to their magical nature same as their natural spell knowledge. IMO they are like dragons and fairies in that way and certain magical abilities and even spell knowledge are innate and instinctual not learned.
I go with the higher of the two PPE scores (usually racial) and allow them to learn spells from study by taking magical Character Classes while keeping their innate LLW abilities shadow powers and initial spells as they get these no matter what their course of study in life is.

[the Captain]

I kinda think you are over complicating the PPE.

The way I have always run things is that the character just takes whichever is better, ignore the rest. In this case the racial PPE would probably win. All the LLW abilities are racial and would carry over to whatever OCC that player chose. That is precisely why the Silhouette are "optional" and players need to work with their GM when selecting an OCC. GMs that don't pay attention are inviting disaster.

Fair enough on the PPE but I most certainly wouldn't let someone change the magical orientation of a Silhouette and keep the Ley Line Walker powers. That is pure munchkinism.
That is giving them everything that a LLW has in addition to whatever OCC they choose when by default, they only get one. If there is no opportunity cost, a Silhouette would be stupid to take their default LLW training when they can have the best of both worlds.

Personally I was never impressed with the LLW abilities, as they are really only useful on or near a ley line. I have even seen LLW not make full use their abilities. I don't think it is any more munchkin than when someone wants to play a True Atlantean RCC. Taking the abbreviated LLW abilities away would only make sense to me if the rest of the party was normal humans with weak sauce OCCs.

I have had two players run Silhouettes over the years, one as temporal wizard, he put the LLW abilities to pretty good use. The other as a Space Pirate OCC... Probably THE MOST wasteful use of that RCC or any, sometimes you got to go with the player's concept.

[Thinyser]

As a concept the Silhouette Space Pirate is appealing in an odd way. But I agree its a "waste" of a Silhouette's talents. But they can't all be Temporal Warriors! haha

[Giant2005]

I kinda think you are over complicating the PPE.

The way I have always run things is that the character just takes whichever is better, ignore the rest. In this case the racial PPE would probably win. All the LLW abilities are racial and would carry over to whatever OCC that player chose. That is precisely why the Silhouette are "optional" and players need to work with their GM when selecting an OCC. GMs that don't pay attention are inviting disaster.

Fair enough on the PPE but I most certainly wouldn't let someone change the magical orientation of a Silhouette and keep the Ley Line Walker powers. That is pure munchkinism.
That is giving them everything that a LLW has in addition to whatever OCC they choose when by default, they only get one. If there is no opportunity cost, a Silhouette would be stupid to take their default LLW training when they can have the best of both worlds.

Going a bit overboard to call it munchkinism, pure or otherwise. Not like the LLW natural abilities are anything you can call a game breaker by any stretch of the imagination. Also it's only from a meta-game perspective to insist that a Silhouette would be stupid to not take both if the option was available. People don't grow up thinking 'oh gee how can I get the maximum benefits out of life, I know I'll learn this and this!', and lots of people for one reason or another don't chose to get the best combos like that either.

But what does a LLW get as an OCC? LLW abilities and magic spells.
Letting them keep the LLW abilities and take the spells from another magic OCC isn't changing their OCC, it is giving them a second one.
I guess the term munchkinism is debatable but I'm sure you can see it would very likely lead that way. If all the RCCs are allowed a second, stacked OCC on top of their generic one without losing their abilities, it breaks the system even more. Why play a Demigod Battle Magus when you can play a Godling Battle Magus?

[Nightmask]

Going a bit overboard to call it munchkinism, pure or otherwise. Not like the LLW natural abilities are anything you can call a game breaker by any stretch of the imagination. Also it's only from a meta-game perspective to insist that a Silhouette would be stupid to not take both if the option was available. People don't grow up thinking 'oh gee how can I get the maximum benefits out of life, I know I'll learn this and this!', and lots of people for one reason or another don't chose to get the best combos like that either.

But what does a LLW get as an OCC? LLW abilities and magic spells.
Letting them keep the LLW abilities and take the spells from another magic OCC isn't changing their OCC, it is giving them a second one.
I guess the term munchkinism is debatable but I'm sure you can see it would very likely lead that way. If all the RCCs are allowed a second, stacked OCC on top of their generic one without losing their abilities, it breaks the system even more. Why play a Demigod Battle Magus when you can play a Godling Battle Magus?

Considering that the vast majority of spells are in the LLW list, along with being where you can generally find all the most destructive spells, you're exaggerating how much it's changing things for a Silhouette to have its LLW abilities and a second spell-casting class on top of that. There are very few spells that aren't in some fashion replicated in the LLW lists, and they aren't likely to create a game-breaker character by any stretch of the imagination.

On the other point, I would imagine the nature of the Battle Magus would not make it possible to be a demigod or godling as well without special approval of the GM. Also it's entirely doable already for a demigod or godling to have two completely separate magical classes if they choose. All RCC also are not made alike, of which some do indeed make it possible to effectively have what seems like 2 classes. Without some specific statement to the contrary no RCC should be losing what's considered a racial ability because it has a non-standard area of training. Dragons don't train to shapeshift and Silhouette's don't train for their natural LLW abilities, it's just part of what they are.

[Giant2005]

Going a bit overboard to call it munchkinism, pure or otherwise. Not like the LLW natural abilities are anything you can call a game breaker by any stretch of the imagination. Also it's only from a meta-game perspective to insist that a Silhouette would be stupid to not take both if the option was available. People don't grow up thinking 'oh gee how can I get the maximum benefits out of life, I know I'll learn this and this!', and lots of people for one reason or another don't chose to get the best combos like that either.

But what does a LLW get as an OCC? LLW abilities and magic spells.
Letting them keep the LLW abilities and take the spells from another magic OCC isn't changing their OCC, it is giving them a second one.
I guess the term munchkinism is debatable but I'm sure you can see it would very likely lead that way. If all the RCCs are allowed a second, stacked OCC on top of their generic one without losing their abilities, it breaks the system even more. Why play a Demigod Battle Magus when you can play a Godling Battle Magus?

Considering that the vast majority of spells are in the LLW list, along with being where you can generally find all the most destructive spells, you're exaggerating how much it's changing things for a Silhouette to have its LLW abilities and a second spell-casting class on top of that. There are very few spells that aren't in some fashion replicated in the LLW lists, and they aren't likely to create a game-breaker character by any stretch of the imagination.

I wasn't referring to the spellcasting abilities because they are universal and the same either way. I am referring to the O.C.C. abilities of a Ley Line Walker that make them unique in conjunction with the O.C.C. Abilities of whatever other O.C.C. They choose. They are gaining without cost and effectively dual-classing. I'm not exaggerating anything - I'm not the biggest fan of the LLW abilities (in fact I have never played a LLW, the other magic O.C.C. abilities have always interested me more) but if a Silhouette could have the abilities of a LLW and another magic O.C.C., what possible reason could there be for the generic LLW Silhouettes to exist? They need opportunity cost.

On the other point, I would imagine the nature of the Battle Magus would not make it possible to be a demigod or godling as well without special approval of the GM.

Sorry, I just picked Battle Magus at random - it is actually a pretty poor choice too and doesn't offer a lot of synergy but try not to get hung up on the details. Substitute any O.C.C. with the same situation.

Also it's entirely doable already for a demigod or godling to have two completely separate magical classes if they choose.

That is kind of the point I was making. A Demi-God can take the Godling power of magic and then choose an O.C.C. A Godling can take the power of magic twice. Letting the Silhouette take an O.C.C. without losing anything from his first, is akin to allowing a Godling his two realms of magic in addition to taking another Magic O.C.C. and losing nothing in return.

Without some specific statement to the contrary no RCC should be losing what's considered a racial ability because it has a non-standard area of training. Dragons don't train to shapeshift and Silhouette's don't train for their natural LLW abilities, it's just part of what they are.

To be fair, such a statement is an impossibility due to this entire discussion revolving around house rules. The book won't have any statements reinforcing house-rules. You are referring to the LLW abilities as natural abilities when I believe they are trained. I tend to compare it to the differences in disciplines of the Amazons. If they take the Psionic route, they lose the O.C.C. abilities of being a Mystic. Changing a Silhouette's discipline should have the same effect - they lose the LLW abilities but gain whatever their new training gives them.

Keep in mind that the Silhouettes are not dragons. they are not born with Genetic knowledge, they train to learn their magic just like anyone else. Think about this situation, if a Silhouette was not trained in magic, would you expect him to keep his Ley Line Walker abilities? Are there any other races out there that have the LLW O.C.C. abilities without magical training?

[Nightmask]

Considering that the vast majority of spells are in the LLW list, along with being where you can generally find all the most destructive spells, you're exaggerating how much it's changing things for a Silhouette to have its LLW abilities and a second spell-casting class on top of that. There are very few spells that aren't in some fashion replicated in the LLW lists, and they aren't likely to create a game-breaker character by any stretch of the imagination.

I wasn't referring to the spellcasting abilities because they are universal and the same either way. I am referring to the O.C.C. abilities of a Ley Line Walker that make them unique in conjunction with the O.C.C. Abilities of whatever other O.C.C. They choose. They are gaining without cost and effectively dual-classing. I'm not exaggerating anything - I'm not the biggest fan of the LLW abilities (in fact I have never played a LLW, the other magic O.C.C. abilities have always interested me more) but if a Silhouette could have the abilities of a LLW and another magic O.C.C., what possible reason could there be for the generic LLW Silhouettes to exist? They need opportunity cost.

I've already pointed out why they exist: because not everyone thinks like they're a character someone's created for their entertainment. It still leaves you exaggerating the impact of someone having LLW abilities combined with another magical class as well.

On the other point, I would imagine the nature of the Battle Magus would not make it possible to be a demigod or godling as well without special approval of the GM.

Sorry, I just picked Battle Magus at random - it is actually a pretty poor choice too and doesn't offer a lot of synergy but try not to get hung up on the details. Substitute any O.C.C. with the same situation.

Either way mixing up any magical classes in a two-fer deal isn't going to give a character some exceptional advantage or slant the game his way excessively.

Also it's entirely doable already for a demigod or godling to have two completely separate magical classes if they choose.

That is kind of the point I was making. A Demi-God can take the Godling power of magic and then choose an O.C.C. A Godling can take the power of magic twice. Letting the Silhouette take an O.C.C. without losing anything from his first, is akin to allowing a Godling his two realms of magic in addition to taking another Magic O.C.C. and losing nothing in return.

Sorry but that's a poor comparison. Silhouettes are hardly equivalent to a Demi-God and having another magical class along with their natural LLW abilities again is hardly game-breaking or providing some kind of unfair advantage.

Without some specific statement to the contrary no RCC should be losing what's considered a racial ability because it has a non-standard area of training. Dragons don't train to shapeshift and Silhouette's don't train for their natural LLW abilities, it's just part of what they are.

To be fair, such a statement is an impossibility due to this entire discussion revolving around house rules. The book won't have any statements reinforcing house-rules. You are referring to the LLW abilities as natural abilities when I believe they are trained. I tend to compare it to the differences in disciplines of the Amazons. If they take the Psionic route, they lose the O.C.C. abilities of being a Mystic. Changing a Silhouette's discipline should have the same effect - they lose the LLW abilities but gain whatever their new training gives them.

Keep in mind that the Silhouettes are not dragons. they are not born with Genetic knowledge, they train to learn their magic just like anyone else. Think about this situation, if a Silhouette was not trained in magic, would you expect him to keep his Ley Line Walker abilities? Are there any other races out there that have the LLW O.C.C. abilities without magical training

Sorry but that would be incorrect, Silhouettes are explicitly stated to be quasi-elemental creatures of shadow AND magical beings without exception so it's a house rule to insist that they have to train in those magical abilities that they're said to have. Their write-up makes it clear that their LLW abilities are natural and in-born to them as a result of their magical natures therefor they do not have to train in them they just are.

[Myrrhibis]

I currently have 2 Silhouettes in our gaming group... One is a LLW I believe, the other dumped most of those skills/abilities for chosen OCC (worked w/ GM to create, and don't recall what he is).

We have a fairly liberal GM & gaming group, in that if we have a reasonably logical concept, you can tweak OCCs & RCCs to make what you want. Hence my Unprincipled->Scrupulous Assassin who is an alien based off my favorite SF book series (there are strict rules about assassination from her native world, but otherwise would be Unprincipled-Scrupulous). Aside from the alignment, she's a "Master Assassin" from the orig Mercenaries book, with some agreed skill/stat OCC updates (init bonus, HF, Percep).

[the Captain]

I re-read through the books to check my opinion against them, I like me some opinions... Not just humble opinions either, I go for the fancy kind.

Here is how I would let a Player make a Temporal' Silhouette, as an example.

The PPE would come from the RCC, no stacking.
LLW and shadow powers are racial and carry over.
Any OCC powers, talents and abilities are added.
RCC spell selection is replaced in favour of OCC spell selection.
RCC skills are replaced with OCC skills and bonuses.
The rest is just book keeping.

It's pretty clear to me that the Silhouette RCC is basically just a Vagabond with some shadow powers and LLW abilities. It's also clear that they only get 6 spells to choose as a vagabond RCC. I can't see how you would give a player the LLW spell selection, unless your feeling really generous. It is not one of the LLW abilities beyond being a formatting error in the RUE(I didn't check the old RMB). The Silhouette clearly has its own spell selection under magical abilities. Now even if Kevin came on here and told me I was wrong and stupid, I would still not allow a player to take the LLW spell selection, UNLESS he was a playing one. To do otherwise is just munchkineering in my fancy opinion.

To be blunt about the LLW powers they are pret..ty.. Yawn... Zzzzzz.. Oh, yeah sorry about that I started reading about them and got really sleepy, I think those ley line powers just induced narcolepsy. I personally have never had a use for the Ley Line Wizard, they make for a good ol' fashion mage, the powers are kinda meh, and I am getting WAY off the subject, sorry.

Now a Silhouette and a non-magical OCC, wouldn't be much different. You would basically apply the skill template to the RCC and call it a day. Being that the Silhouette RCC is basically a vagabond. Usually the professionalised OCC has a focused/narrow skill set with bonuses like 10% the vagabonds don't get. This is representing a professional specialisation as opposed to the vagabonds generalisation. I keep wanting to type Unskilled in front of vagabond, I miss the misdirecting title.

Saying you can only have the Silhouette RCC seems counter intuitive to the fact that there will be Silhouette Turbo Jockeys(sounds like undershorts) assassins, space pirates or what have you. Because the Shadow and LLW abilities are racial, the character would retain them regardless of OCC. Some RCCs are limited to selecting OCCs for game balance or story reasons, but the Silhouette really doesn't need to be one. They are a cosmopolitan race from a galactic civilisation, there certainly would be specialists and professionals amongst their ranks.

Lastly, I wish we could get a little more details about the Silhouette and the Machine People, both RCCs are the best in the Three Galaxies. I get really enthusiastic when players select them, unlike with some of the newer "jungle book" and "lion king" flavoured RCCs that are showing up in the more recent books.

[say652]

no occ. maybe a psionic rcc with a valid arguement maybe. Yes to super abilities using the conversion book limitations and restrictions and only the powers listed in that book. so with magic and natural abilities is three major powers and two minor powers worth half your skills? cant read but i can turn to steel, dont know how to cook but i can control gravity, see.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Level 2 edit.
As they are written in the PW book, the Silhouettes are a Race and Class Combined, with no option to separate the two. Thus every Silhouette with their racial powers Has To Start Off with the Racial Char Class published in the PW book.

I see no problem with a Silhouette taking a Non-magic, Non-mystic, non-psi basic OCC with out any class abilities.

[Thinyser]

As they are written in the PW book, the Silhouettes are a Race and Class Combined, with no option to separate the two. Thus every Silhouette with their racial powers Has To Start Off with the Racial Char Class published in the PW book.


The two ways to start off a char without the silhouette RCC are 1) Strip out ALL the racial powers along with the class skills along the lines that "since the person did not have the normal powers of the race they were not trained up as everyone else so got pushed into some sort of "Non-magic" OCC (note: this option should be exceedingly rare) or 2) it is an experienced char that changed to a difference class because of life choices. Both of these options are non-canon within the concerns of the Published PB Rules, and require a GM to allow ether of them.

Opinions differ, and yours is not applicable to all games. These are certainly NOT the only two options that a GM can approve. Mine approved intermingling them very much as I had outlined. Canon or not people do marry Races and OCCs.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Level 1 Edit.

snip...Canon or not people do marry Races and OCCs.

And the Silhouettes as presented in the PW book are an example of in canon Race-Class Marriage.

Never said that people don't ignore canon to make char like they want.

To let the char have both the racial powers and another class you should ask..."Do I really want this to be a Demigod like char?"

[Thinyser]

snip...Canon or not people do marry Races and OCCs.

And the Silhouettes are an example, in canon, of a Race-Class Marriage.

Never said that people don't ignore canon to make char like they want.

Maybe I should of prefaced the options with "To stay as close to published canon there are two ways......".

To let the char have both the S RCC powers and another class you should ask..."Do I really want this to be a Demigod like char?"

While I agree that certain Silhouette OCC hybrids are very powerful certain games are played with powerful characters. If the group has a godling or demigod, a dragon hatchling, a nightbane, or other such higher powered characters then a Silhouette OCC combination my be very appropriate. To each their own.

[Thinyser]

Since the silhoutte is an OCC, I don't allow them to change classes. I do however let them learn the spells of other classes, if they get the oportunity. And yea, a silhouette with the right temporal magic is serious bad news......

99.999% sure they are an RCC. Dont have my books handy to verify. Even then giving an RCC an OCC is completely up to the GM.

[Nightmask]

Since the silhoutte is an OCC, I don't allow them to change classes. I do however let them learn the spells of other classes, if they get the oportunity. And yea, a silhouette with the right temporal magic is serious bad news......

99.999% sure they are an RCC. Dont have my books handy to verify. Even then giving an RCC an OCC is completely up to the GM.

He probably just typoed and meant RCC, as far as replacing an RCC skill selection with a different OCC that does end up individual choice and whether the race in question has something about it that locks it into a specific package of skills. Dragons for example due to having that 'racial memory' deal that sticks them with basic skills upon hatching, Silhouettes though while having inherent magical abilities don't really have anything about them that would suggest that they can't learn a different skill selection with the right background.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Level 1 edit.

Since the silhouette is an OCC, I don't allow them to change classes. I do however let them learn the spells of other classes, if they get the opportunity. And yea, a silhouette with the right temporal magic is serious bad news......

99.999% sure they are an RCC. Don't have my books handy to verify. Even then giving an RCC an OCC is completely up to the GM.

To be fully accurate As presented the Silhouette in the RDB2:PW is a Race-RCC combination.

[Nightmask]

Sorry, I did mean to say RCC. And like the hachling, or godling, or any other RCC, I DON'T let them multi-class freely. Hell, I don't even let ordinary humans multiclass freely.

The Silhouette gets most of the LLW abilities - to allow them to pick an OCC and get it's powers AND the Silhouette's racial LLW abilities sounds like pure munchkinism to me. (Which is actualy just fine if you are running a powerhouse munchkin style campaign) If a player came to me with the idea, it would be a very hard sell, but I suppose I could allow one to have an OCC - at the cost of all their LLW abilities (I'd leave them the PPE, since I'm not sure how much of that is because they are supernatural and how much is because they are LLW's)

The term you mean is twink or twinking, not munchkin and you really aren't approaching a power-house let alone a twinked out character if a Silhouette had its normal racial abilities and also ended up say a Techno-Wizard or Temporal Wizard. Silhouette's also aren't Ley Line Walkers, they're supernatural beings with some natural abilities similar to the Ley Line Walker. The two are quite distinct, one is inherent due to the nature of their race the other is a result of training to become. You don't train to become a Silhouette you just are.

[KLM]

Hi there!

The Silhouette gets most of the LLW abilities - to allow them to pick an OCC and get it's powers AND the Silhouette's racial LLW abilities sounds like pure munchkinism to me. (Which is actualy just fine if you are running a powerhouse munchkin style campaign) If a player came to me with the idea, it would be a very hard sell, but I suppose I could allow one to have an OCC - at the cost of all their LLW abilities (I'd leave them the PPE, since I'm not sure how much of that is because they are supernatural and how much is because they are LLW's)

OK, just a little mind game.

Whipping out DMB2, pg 80, Silhouettes colonized a dozen planet using rift-drives. Ssssooo, how would a silhouette R-drive engineer's character sheet look like?

Adios
KLM

[drewkitty ~..~]

Hi there!
...snip...
OK, just a little mind game.

Whipping out DMB2, pg. 80, Silhouettes colonized a dozen planet using rift-drives. Ssssooo, how would a silhouette R-drive engineer's character sheet look like?

Adios
KLM

At L1 they would have 18 skill picked out to be similar to a Techno-Smithy.

They might exchange their LLW powers for those of the TS. But that would be a different Silhouette RCC from the standard silhouette RCC

[flatline]

If the LLW abilities are natural abilities to the Silhouette, I don't see why they would be lost. That would be like saying that a human loses color vision if he decides to train in a particular field.

Unfortunately, the racial write-up doesn't give any indication that I'm aware of if the LLW abilities are inherent to the race or a trained ability.

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

If the LLW abilities are natural abilities to the Silhouette, I don't see why they would be lost. That would be like saying that a human loses color vision if he decides to train in a particular field.

Unfortunately, the racial write-up doesn't give any indication that I'm aware of if the LLW abilities are inherent to the race or a trained ability.

--flatline

They are in the natural abilities.


However,
when the PW book was written the LLW was the only common magic spell caster in the Rifts books. So if you expand from the LLW magic class only, to any generalized magic user then you add in the Wizard (PF), the Mystic Study (HU), Arcanist (BTS) and Sorcerer (NB) to the possible class types that a silhouette can be.
Or if you open the possible classes to be any that have abilities "copied" from the LLW class, then it opens up a lot of the Rifts magic classes to being available to silhouette.

I would like to see this aspect of the silhouettes to be rewritten so they can have the powers from any of the mage types.

[flatline]

If the LLW abilities are natural abilities to the Silhouette, I don't see why they would be lost. That would be like saying that a human loses color vision if he decides to train in a particular field.

Unfortunately, the racial write-up doesn't give any indication that I'm aware of if the LLW abilities are inherent to the race or a trained ability.

--flatline

They are in the natural abilities.


However,
when the PW book was written the LLW was the only, and still is, the only generalize spell caster in the Rifts books. So if you expand from the LLW magic class only, to any generalized magic user then you add in the Wizard (PF), the Mystic Study (HU), Arcanist (BTS) and Sorcerer (NB) to the possible class types that a silhouette can be.
Or if you open the possible classes to be any that have abilities "copied" from the LLW class, then it opens up a lot of the Rifts magic classes to being available to silhouette.

I would like to see this aspect of the silhouettes to be rewritten so they can have the powers from any of the mage types.

What do you mean "the only generalize spell caster in the Rifts books"?

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

"Common Magic" user, non-specialized magic user, Incantationist.

Like as if the Silhouette was written for the PF world then the natural abilities would of copied the Wizard magic class. The PF world's common magic/incantation user class.

However, with the coming of RUE they are no longer a non-specialized magic class. Since they now specialize in the LL specialty magics, along with their access to 'common magic'.

[KLM]

when the PW book was written the LLW was the only common magic spell caster in the Rifts books.

Khmm... Aside from techno-wizards, shifters, mystics, temporal classes and a few more.

[Nightmask]

when the PW book was written the LLW was the only common magic spell caster in the Rifts books.

Khmm... Aside from techno-wizards, shifters, mystics, temporal classes and a few more.

Wouldn't matter in any case, since the ability to detect ley lines and the like are pretty common even with so many more classes of spell-casters added since then so no reason to think a Silhouette wouldn't have them as natural abilities even if they'd been written up more recently. Just as there's no reason to think they'd lose those natural abilities if one trained as a Techno-wizard or even a Special Forces sort.

[drewkitty ~..~]

when the PW book was written the LLW was the only common magic spell caster in the Rifts books.

Khmm... Aside from techno-wizards, shifters, mystics, temporal classes and a few more.

And you are ignoring the examples of other common magic users that I gave. So go back and read and think about the concepts I am talking about.

Each of the magic user you listed are specialists in some sort or another.

[KLM]

when the PW book was written the LLW was the only common magic spell caster in the Rifts books.

Khmm... Aside from techno-wizards, shifters, mystics, temporal classes and a few more.

And you are ignoring the examples of other common magic users that I gave. So go back and read and think about the concepts I am talking about.

Each of the magic user you listed are specialists in some sort or another.

Mystics aren't specialists, however Ley Line Walkers are. They have many abilities other spellcasters do not have.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Mystics are specialist in their own way. Of 'just knowing magic' w/o having to learn it. Besides 'Mystics are not mages', even if they are magic users.

Yep, the RUE LLW are which is why I edited my org. comment to just be the RMB LLW. I am correct in what I said, when you consider that the LLW the PW book is talking about is the RMB LLW. If people actually READ "what I wrote" and consider things before firing off something, then half the things I post and are argued about would not be argued over. Yes, I am sort of sick of it.

[say652]

well in that case I want to be a cosmo knight sea inquisitor warrior of Valhalla with lots of bioborg upgrades

[Tor]

the new rule that you can absorb and hold 2x your max PPE (for a total of 3x your max PPE)

I remember this but keep forgetting which books mention it. Would everyone happen to remember them all? Is it only the book of magic? Is it somewhere in FoM or RUE or elsewhere? The FAQ?

any mage can cast talisman with a little effort by mid level

Ignoring the 'above max' thing, the PPE boost the walker/shifter got in RUE, along with the ridiculously fast regeneration rates at ley lines (hours to melee rounds it seems) also make this so.

I most certainly wouldn't let someone change the magical orientation of a Silhouette and keep the Ley Line Walker powers. That is pure munchkinism.

No it isn't. Their Ley Line Walker abilities are their natural abilities, they would not lose them if they learned another magical OCC.

That said: if they learned a magical OCC, it would advance separately from their inborn RCC skills and abilities. So if you chose to remain a level 1 silhouette(w/LLWstuff) and get 3 levels in 'warlock' to become a level 1 warlock (via OCC changing rules) you could level up to be a level 10 warlock, but you'd still have merely level 1 LLW abilities unless you switched back to level up your RCC.

I might prevent a Silhouette from switching to the Ley Line Walker OCC though. Just because that's a bit confusing and seems like a way to get a lower experience table. Let'm become a Ley Line Rifter, sure (insanity is fun) but not a Walker, since they already are one.

It'd be like a Demigod with 'earth warlock' as a Godling power choosing earth warlock as his OCC.

There are no rules I'm aware of allowing this RCC to start off with another OCC though, so to get them you'd need to switch to them, putting you a bit behind the curve of others who can start off with other OCCs.

Silhouettes are hardly equivalent to a Demi-God.

Oh? Do you really want to do a comparison here? About the only advantage I see to demi-gods is their regeneration abilities.

how I would let a Player make a Temporal' Silhouette, PPE would come from the RCC, no stacking.

But Inglix the Mad and Alistair Dunscon seem to be poster boys for PPE stacking

Do we even have one NPC in PB with multiple magic OCCs and low PPE? Interested.

I see no problem with a Silhouette taking a Non-magic, Non-mystic, non-psi basic OCC with out any class abilities.

It seems a bit unfair if it ends up making them better than the default RCC skills without making them require more experience to level.

If the LLW abilities are natural abilities to the Silhouette, I don't see why they would be lost. That would be like saying that a human loses color vision if he decides to train in a particular field.

Unfortunately, the racial write-up doesn't give any indication that I'm aware of if the LLW abilities are inherent to the race or a trained ability.

They'd be kept the same way a LLW switching to a new OCC would keep their magic, but they would need to change from the RCC. Advancing concurrently as a LLW and Warlock for example, shouldn't happen.

if the Silhouette was written for the PF world then the natural abilities would of copied the Wizard magic class.

Pure speculation. I find it unlikely since wizards have their Cauldron-making abilities which I don't expect Silhouettes would know. The LLW is a lot more "raw" than a wizard or a mystic study. If we had to make comparisons, perhaps to Nightbane's sorcerer or those Chaos Earth pre-OCCs.

Besides 'Mystics are not mages', even if they are magic users.

Er... outta curiosity where is 'mage' defined in a specific way to exclude mystics? Whenever I recall encountering it just seemed like an interchangeable slang.

well in that case I want to be a cosmo knight sea inquisitor warrior of Valhalla with lots of bioborg upgrades

That may be doable, but let's discuss the details here. I am unsure how bioborg implants would mesh with the altered physiology of Cosmo-Knights. This may be something to talk out with Splynncryth and the Cosmic Forge.

To be a Warrior of Valhalla I think you need to select a military/warrior/man at arms kinda OCC. The Sea Inquisitor isn't exactly defined one way or another. They can be several things, including mystics, psychics, scholars or warriors. So for Odin to accept you, your Inquisitor would be limited to a few of the options, namely Sailor, Pirate, or Grunt.

I'd probably go with Sailor, as helping the CS or engaging in piracy might make you into a Fallen Knight. Although with your ability to fly, sailing would mostly be done for others' benefit rather than your own.

Although a sailor might count as more of an 'adventurer' than a man-at-arms...

There are books about kingdoms which describe having "equivalents" of CS/NGR type OCCs, so those might work.

[Nekira Sudacne]

the new rule that you can absorb and hold 2x your max PPE (for a total of 3x your max PPE)

I remember this but keep forgetting which books mention it. Would everyone happen to remember them all? Is it only the book of magic? Is it somewhere in FoM or RUE or elsewhere? The FAQ?

BoM page 21

[drewkitty ~..~]

I see no problem with a Silhouette taking a Non-magic, Non-mystic, non-psi basic OCC with out any class abilities.

It seems a bit unfair if it ends up making them better than the default RCC skills without making them require more experience to level.

*shrugs* it does not matter cause the class they changed to would be the one they progressed in. The RCC progression would be frozen.

Besides 'Mystics are not mages', even if they are magic users.

Er... outta curiosity where is 'mage' defined in a specific way to exclude mystics? Whenever I recall encountering it just seemed like an interchangeable slang.

If you pay attention to the words I use and think about it it would make since.

Mages have spent 4-7 years learning their craft.

Mystics get their magic from psychic insparation. i.e.:an intuitive magic using.

I am not Excluding mystics from the "magic user" grouping. Just saying they did not work to learn how to cast magic.

Note: I have been thinking about these things for about 15 years as each book came out. So what looks to me as an "Out of Hand Rejection" of what I have said by some newb is a bit insulting. Which is how it is feeling like to me.

[Tor]

Mystics do work to learn. They meditate and stuff to discover their spells. Much like psychics, I suppose. They just learn differently, and in a way not conductive to others' instructions.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Mystics do work to learn. They meditate and stuff to discover their spells. Much like psychics, I suppose. They just learn differently, and in a way not conductive to others' instructions.

Can they teach their spells to anyone else? No
Do they gain new spells though study and experience? No.

They do not meet the qualifications of a mage.


Yes, they are psychics.

Mystics are considered to be master psychics, but pert of their psychic power is to intuitively know a handful of spell incantations and how to use them. Their magic abilities take the place of super-psionics and a more expansive range of powers.

I am being Accurate. I am not letting the PC way of thinking "Lets call everybody the same thing even though it's a big Lie so they feel good" affect my judgement.

[say652]

after much thought using a silhouette as a base race is doable,as such. all natural abilities are frozen at 1st level including any skills not chosen in your now dual class occ. so a 1st level silhouette decides that magic sucks and decides to become a Power Armor pilot or operator or well whatever is semingly allowed. not sure if i would allow someone to pic a pcc as the duel class (aren't you born psychic?)

[Tor]

Can they teach their spells to anyone else? No
Do they gain new spells though study and experience? No.
They do not meet the qualifications of a mage.

Nowhere does it say you must be able to teach spells or learn spells through studying to be a mage. Not even sure mage is a technical term save by being used interchangably in various spell descriptions (it's almost hypnotic how Kev switches between mage/spellcaster/arcanist/etc. in the spell summaries)

Yes, they are psychics.

We already know this due to their having psychic abilities...

Mystics are considered to be master psychics, but pert of their psychic power is to intuitively know a handful of spell incantations and how to use them. Their magic abilities take the place of super-psionics and a more expansive range of powers.

I'd say moreso they had the potential to be masters but downgraded it, but okay. Kind of like how some master psi classes orient their talent in different directions, guess magic could be one'f'm. Presumably also how a Nega-Psychic gets their bonus PPE and learns to use it.

Also I am very confused by these cranes...

[Nightmask]

after much thought using a silhouette as a base race is doable,as such. all natural abilities are frozen at 1st level including any skills not chosen in your now dual class occ. so a 1st level silhouette decides that magic sucks and decides to become a Power Armor pilot or operator or well whatever is semingly allowed. not sure if i would allow someone to pic a pcc as the duel class (aren't you born psychic?)

That's a very big and heated topic of consideration, some insist that if you're a psychic OCC then it's basically a race and you can't become anything else, others point out that there are classes that actually teach psychic powers and the CS even has programs that can force people into developing certain psychic OCC so there are plenty of examples that give reason to believe one can become a psychic OCC like they can any other OCC.

[Tor]

Maybe some psychic OCCs/PCCs/RCCs are more teachable than others?

The same could be said of several magic OCCs.

[say652]

i wasn't sure on the dual class ability of psychics i have never encountered that in a game so am unsure how it would work.