The shield was the most important piece of a Spartan's gear. The Roman Army's use of shields in testudo formations made them nearly impervious to arrow fire. Until the advent of gunpowder, the shield was an essential tool for virtually every serious warrior. Even today, riot police use them to great effect.
Is anyone else underwhelmed by shields in Palladium Fantasy?
From page 60, P2E:
Bonuses: +1 to parry at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15. +1 to strike with a shield (1D4) at levels 4, 8, and 12. No bonus when thrown.
(Oddly enough, in the next paragraph, it mentions that the damage from hitting someone with a small or large shield is 2d4, which conflicts with the damage already stated)
Compare to W.P. Blunt on page 59, P2E:
Bonuses: +1 to strike and parry at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12. +1 to strike when thrown at levels 5, 10, and 15; not designed for throwing.
Given these mechanics, and the fact that you can find hammers that do a lot more damage than 2D4, the shield seems like a laughable choice. Even without paired weapon strike options, simply having a hammer in your off hand allows you to use the parry bonus, and gives you a better backup weapon in case you get disarmed.
Understand, I love my hammer time as much as the next wearer of baggy pants, and I'm not meaning to pick on a single proficiency; w.p. knife offers even more bonuses, W.P. Net is only slightly behind in parrying (and can net/entangle), Pole arms are as good as blunt (and get extra damage)... you get the idea.
Anyone have some good common-sense house rules to make shields the staple of serious melee warriors that it should be?
Without house rules, here are the advantages I can see:
If you don't allow an off-hand weapon without paired weapons (there are no rules one way or the other about this, as far as I know), and your primary weapon either doesn't allow you to parry (chain) or has a weak bonus to parry (axe, sword), then a shield will allow you to defend yourself a bit better.
If your shield is made of wood, and you can't swim or are in heavy armor, it could be used as a flotation device.
If you're being chased down a mountainside, you could use it as a sled.
A small shield could allow you to parry arrows without penalty. A large shield could allow you to cover against any arrow attack from a certain direction (little to no other movement or actions allowed, but it keeps you safe during a massive arrow bombardment).
Shields could be used to increase your effective armor rating. You could have a shield split the difference between your armor's AR and 20, rounding down for small shields and up for large ones.
Last edited by Hotrod on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cover, some gms say it adds to AR, and others say if you don't have a shield I will make you an arrow pincushion. Are shields what they should be in canon? Rare for me to say something negative, but yes, they should be improved upon.
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They should definitely be improved upon. They seem almost an afterthought as written. Shields can be interlocked to completely block out damage if they are of the larger type, so they definitely improve your AR, IMO, at least the way I play it in my House Rules.
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At our table to keep from needing 50 shields in the wagon we say they only take sdc damage if they are targeted or what you use to block them is doing over 1/3 of its total capacity. Also, if you block a fire breath with your wood sheild its taking some pain, acid same deal for metal. This way it becomes a gold saver for they players. Armor is not cheap or easy to fix in the field. This way pc's are still encurage to keep a shield on them
With only a little bit of tweaking shields could be very effective. I think there should be a published rule that fixes this. Plus the SDC of a metal shield should be really high.
That would be an interesting challenge: make shields attractive, but not over-powering. The idea would be to put players in a position to subjectively choose between doing more damage with a 2-hander/paired weapons and having more survivability with a shield. Win faster, or live longer?
Making shields effective? Paired weapons: sword and shield. Coupled with the simultaneous attack rule makes for a formidable sword and board fighter.
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Damian Magecraft wrote:Making shields effective? Paired weapons: sword and shield. Coupled with the simultaneous attack rule makes for a formidable sword and board fighter.
Quite so, except for the fact that knives, blunt weapons, forked weapons, and nets all offer about the same defensive bonuses as W.P. Shield, and most of them offer significant advantages over a shield (damage, entangling, throwing, etc).
Under rules as written, the shield is an inferior choice to nearly any other 1-handed weapon as an off-hand.
My house rules for shields are Shields decrease the critical range of opponents by 1 for small, 2 for medium and 3 for large. (ie a palladin crits on 17-20, h rolls an 18 to hit the thief, the thief parries with his small shield which makes the palladins crit range 18-20, bad luck thief, if the thief had been using a medium shield it would have made the paladin crit on a 19 or 20 and he wouldn't have taken double damage) Also you need a shield to effectively parry 2h weapons(-4 to parry with one handed weapons), projectile weapons or chain weapons except nunchucks. Shields give partial concealment negatives to hit (depends on size of shield) when being fired at, but ranged weapons in my campaign have minimum to hit numbers depending on range modified by speed cover and weather effects. and so they dont run out as quick and so you can charge more you can have damage resistant shields small wooden shield reduces damage done to it by 5 large wooden shield reduces damage done to it by 8 small steel shield reduces damage done to it by 10 Large Steel shield reduces damage done to it by 15 If a creatures damage bonus is higher then the damage resistance, ignore damage resistance
I use a + 1 to AR for every +1 to parry w/ shield. I also only damage a shield if it is targeted. Only have one player that uses it will have to share this w/ him.
Damian Magecraft wrote:Making shields effective? Paired weapons: sword and shield. Coupled with the simultaneous attack rule makes for a formidable sword and board fighter.
Quite so, except for the fact that knives, blunt weapons, forked weapons, and nets all offer about the same defensive bonuses as W.P. Shield, and most of them offer significant advantages over a shield (damage, entangling, throwing, etc).
Under rules as written, the shield is an inferior choice to nearly any other 1-handed weapon as an off-hand.
well if all you are looking for is a mechanical reason to use one weapon over another then yes you are right... However in every game system I have ever played in my 35 years in the hobby shield has never been a mechanically optimal choice.
however if you must have a mechanical reason to take shields then make them immune to the off hand penalties. Or allow them to ignore the dodge/parry penalties of ranged attacks.
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror. It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"
Damian Magecraft wrote:Making shields effective? Paired weapons: sword and shield. Coupled with the simultaneous attack rule makes for a formidable sword and board fighter.
Quite so, except for the fact that knives, blunt weapons, forked weapons, and nets all offer about the same defensive bonuses as W.P. Shield, and most of them offer significant advantages over a shield (damage, entangling, throwing, etc).
Under rules as written, the shield is an inferior choice to nearly any other 1-handed weapon as an off-hand.
well if all you are looking for is a mechanical reason to use one weapon over another then yes you are right... However in every game system I have ever played in my 35 years in the hobby shield has never been a mechanically optimal choice.
however if you must have a mechanical reason to take shields then make them immune to the off hand penalties. Or allow them to ignore the dodge/parry penalties of ranged attacks.
I agree on the ingoring penalties bit considering that that is what sheilds were most used for, and as far as efectivness goes i usually give a higher chance to parry as it is easier to block with a sheild than with a off hand sword as in my experience it takes training to block affectivley with a sword or dagger while millitia will little to no training can use a sheild effectivley.
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Buy a 1ED book and use the Shield defensive rules there. Large shield give +2 parry at level 1. Thats pretty good. Then +5 Parry at level 5.
Also think about adding magic defensive abilities to magic shields. Also a shield can be special made to have more in parry and more SDC.
Remember a Shield can also parry arrows and spears. Where other weapons can't. Almost every occ is also able to use Shield. This makes shield a highly used defensive weapon.
i have never been happy with the palladium system behind shields for any of its systems they allways seem a very poor way of defending oneself, it was a very large part behind me sitting down and starting to modify everything that i felt needed touched up on or in some cases totaly rethought. So i present to you my own version of how shields should work, please let me know what everybody thinks
--sheild mods
when used to block they take 1/4 damage unless the attacker has a ps of 20 or higher,is useing a two handed weapon with a ps of 16 or higher,or if useing a large or giant class weapon, when a shields SDC is depeleted half of whatever remaining damage affects the defender. Shields have a resistance factor that works the same as armour rules this resistance factor that is the same as certain armour styles.
shields have sdc,strike,parry, and block bonus's based by size, type, and material bonus's and negatives are cumulative
size of the shield affects strike,parry and block bonus's
small----------- +1strike,parry -2block normal +-0, large----------- -2strike,-2parry +2Block, +1 to CA score x large -4strike,-3parry +4block, +2 to CA score
shape of the shield affects strike,parry and block bonus's
age and condidtion of the shield affect sdc and resistance factors,
new------------- +2 to resistance factors and +20% sdc, is only considerd "new" untill the extra 20% sdc is depeleted for the first time at wich time its then used used normal resistance factors and sdc ancient--------- -2 to resistance factors and -20% sdc thin -1 to resistance factors and -10% sdc thick----------- +1 to resistance factors and +10% sdc temperd +1 to resistance factors and +15% sdc
composition of the shield affects sdc and resistance factors
hide----------- +5 sdc, RF of medium cloth leather +10 sdc, RF soft or hard leather light wood----- +15 sdc, RF studded soft leather heavy wood +20 sdc, RF hard leather jazeraint copper--------- +25 sdc, RF Mail plastic +28 sdc, RF horn/bone lamellar bronze--------- +33 sdc, RF Double mail iron +40 sdc, RF laminated steel---------- +50 sdc, RF platemail carbon fiber +30 sdc, RF woven cord unknown metal-- +??-?? unknown alloy +??-??
--wp sheild small damage=1d4+ps medium damage=1d6+ps large damage=1d8+1d4+ps xlarge damage=1d8+1d6+ps if shield has bladded edge add additional 1d6 if shield has 1-3 spikes add 3d4 if sheild has 4-? spikes add additonal d4 per spike that would realisticaly hit the aponit with the described strike a shield may have both a bladed edge and spikes however only one can realisticaly hit +1 to strike at levels 2,4,6,8,12,14,15 +1 to strike when thrown at levels 3,6,9,12,15 +2 to block at levels 1,3,7,12 +3 to block at levels 5,10,15
In game terms, they're not. In real life, a block implies that you're stopping the attack completely, while a parry is more of a deflection. Perhaps he's referring to covering with a shield?
These were just the shield specific rules i came up with, there are a few references in there to other modifications i use. One of wich helps redefine old combat terms and there are a few new ones in there as well in my mods Block is the basic defense move that is a free action were as parry is harder since it comes with penalty's but if done successfully is worth it since it provides new advantages. Part of the reason behind this distinction was that certain shields by design are better suited to shed off a blow no matter what angle the attack is intercepted at but then other shields primarily are just there to stop and or allow the blow to stick in the shield to prevent nearby friendly troops from catching the deflected shot. You will allso note the reference to "resistance factors" which is part of my total overhaul of the system that handles armor and thinking about it makes it harder to understand how shields work in my modifications.
So with those questions answered and a few of my overlooked terms explained what does everybody think of this as a way to fix and greatly improve the usefullness of shields.
Another quick fix that doesn't require extensive rewrites of the rules.. Have shields come with paired wepons automatically.
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror. It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"
Damian Magecraft wrote:Another quick fix that doesn't require extensive rewrites of the rules.. Have shields come with paired wepons automatically.
I have always kinda agreed. IMO, if you want your shield as a shield, no paired weapons needed. If you want to use it as a weapon, different story.
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Damian Magecraft wrote:Another quick fix that doesn't require extensive rewrites of the rules.. Have shields come with paired wepons automatically.
I thought it did for the fact of parrying, but a twinstrike with a sword and a shield wouldn't be particularily easy to do (i.e i wouldn't allow it, unless you were using 2 small bladeshields).
another quick fix is the shield gives a reroll on a failed parry, but like all rerolls got to keep second number.
I give players +1AR for a small shield and +2AR for a large shield, not much I admit but its something.
I allow superior (dwarven) crafted shields to gain up to a +4parry bonus.
They can block arrows etc.
They can be used kinda like paired weapons/ sword and board stylee.
I also experimented with shield bash! If successful it staggers opponent causing them to lose 1 attack and the initiative. Not great but gives players a reason to attack with the shield.
Unless the shield is being attacked I do not ask player to knock SDC off simply for parrying.
However I really don't like using house rules, I would really like to see the shield get some real canon love
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I give shields an automatic intrinsic bonus of +1 parry with small shields and +2 parry with large shields, whether if you're proficient or not. Putting an object in front of you ought to be beneficial regardless. Also I give a +1 AR to the overall armor rating if you wield a shield. I also allow it to deflect arrows as others have done and provide cover for large shields.
My houserules A shields AR-10=Parry bonus Large shields can be used as cover In some situations the shield can be used instead of a dodge
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Like several others have said, we consider shields partial cover while engaged in combat. This requires an opponent to make a called shot to hit the bearer and use two attacks. If the shield is large enough, it may be used as full cover if the character sacrifices other actions. Multiple enemies can negate the cover provided from a shield by flanking the character, the same way they could maneuver to defeat any other type of cover. Parries come into play for flankers, as well as for frontal attacks that bypass the cover.
I will part ways with some of the folks here by saying I have never thought of this as a house rule. To me, a house rule is one that deviates from the official rules but the group agrees to the change because they feel it facilitates their style of game play. Cover is already in the rules, and there is nothing to indicate one cannot take cover behind a shield. Reasonable people may disagree with my perspective on this.
Also arguably not a house rule, anyone can use a shield for cover without paired weapons or W.P. Shield, but if a character is going to be parrying attacks and doing shield bashes then the bonuses and penalties for those respective rules come into play.
As a house rule I've had the player roll two parrie dice, using the higher - if that die is the shield die and it parries, the shield takes damage. If they happen to have paired weapons, they can roll three parries overall (two on the shield).
The Jack wrote:Like several others have said, we consider shields partial cover while engaged in combat. This requires an opponent to make a called shot to hit the bearer and use two attacks. If the shield is large enough, it may be used as full cover if the character sacrifices other actions. Multiple enemies can negate the cover provided from a shield by flanking the character, the same way they could maneuver to defeat any other type of cover. Parries come into play for flankers, as well as for frontal attacks that bypass the cover.
I will part ways with some of the folks here by saying I have never thought of this as a house rule. To me, a house rule is one that deviates from the official rules but the group agrees to the change because they feel it facilitates their style of game play. Cover is already in the rules, and there is nothing to indicate one cannot take cover behind a shield. Reasonable people may disagree with my perspective on this.
Also arguably not a house rule, anyone can use a shield for cover without paired weapons or W.P. Shield, but if a character is going to be parrying attacks and doing shield bashes then the bonuses and penalties for those respective rules come into play.
I would have agreed with you on this, but upon re examination of the PFRPG rules, I could not find rules for cover. Rifts has the cover rules in it, so for PFRPG, cover rules would be a house rule. If I am wrong, I would love to know the book/page in PFRPG where the cover rules are.
I think the Shields certainly can be disappointing but I think they're modeled after the Medieval era so they aren't as protective or diverse as those shields used throughout time
Our GM is really cool about allowing custom designed items and permits us to use whatever and I myself will be running a game this weekend and will absolutely incorporate custom shields
I think in the context of the palladium universe a spartan shield while effective in tandem when employed in a phalanx, is a detriment when individually employed against a enemy with varied range weapons
The shield is a great instrument and when employed by a smart PC with a great GM permitting it can be devastating weapon and defense
There is some text in the HU AU book in the equipment section.
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I suppose if anyone wants to play a 'shield character' there is that canonical enhancement to the Knight OCC in the Rifter where one house gets some sweet bonuses. This doesn't much help it sucking otherwise for knights not of that house and other chars though.
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You might want to take a look at Hackmaster (there's afree pdf to get you started). It treats shields much better... the provide cover from missile weapons, take reduced damage from many weapons, and apply about a +10 to defense over carrying a single weapon. However, they're also breakable, so trying to block an angry troll's flamberge with a shield might result in a broken shield (to say nothing of arm).
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Shields are one of the things that has always bothered me. Some of the others being natural AR and SDC; I have always wanted to tie those two together. To do so, though, requires some kind of layered AR "hit bands" system to apportion blows between worn armor, natural armor, and HP. I don't see it as a major mechanical impediment and it would certainly make the vein in my forehead happily un-hypertensive.
Once you have figured the system out, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to add a shield hit band, in addition to being able to attempt parrying with the shield. A successful parry and the shield is (more or less) undamaged; if you are just holding it there and letting your opponent whack it, the shield would take the strike damage. (Assuming they didn't roll high enough to smack you in the face instead).
I haven't played in forever, so I haven't been particularly motivated to work out details and see if it is actually practical, but the theory appeals to me.
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My house rules for shields. Sdc style. Assign an Ar to shield. And sdc. Add ar to parry. Keep the -6 for projectiles. Successful parry 1/10th damage comes off shield. Awesome right. Um not so much. Any attack roll over the shields ar deals 1/10th damage to the character. Concusive transfer I call it. A mighty ogre slams his axe into your shield. Yay I blocked. My arm is numb from the force of the blow.
