Possible to support SLMH/Hydrogen fueled Mecha in NG Period?

[Seto Kaiba]

http://www.facebook.com/AmalgamatedFiction

Thanks for that, that explains a lot... like why Tommy couldn't give me a cogent answer when I asked him why they'd gone with stabilized liquid metallic hydrogen as their fuel of choice, and didn't seem to know anything about its properties. So it looks like it was Tommy's call to have the early mecha switch back to fusion, and Jason came up with SLMH to explain how those reactors were powered. I would probably have gone with something less exotic and easier to produce, like the slush hydrogen that the Variable Fighter Master File books assert Macross's VFs use for fuel. (It's surprising how so little can power the mecha for so long... and how little difference a full fuel load makes in the VF-1's mass.)

Of course the other option, that would make more sense, would be to revise the OSM stats to avoid the decline in the first place. Increasing listed flight speeds (V-mode) by a factor of:

Yeah, but that would require original thought, something which has always been in short supply where Robotech is concerned, and a fair amount of weaseling out of the various inconsistencies those changes would bring when compared against the animation.

I know the scene you are thinking of, but it is pretty ambiguous. One could substitute a Reflex Furnace for an Nuclear Reactor in a NERVA design with the result qualifying as "based on a reactor design", but I can't think of a clear instance that would point to nuclear being the explanation (unless in RT REFLEX = NUCLEAR).

I know it's ambiguous... and when I first talked to Tommy about it shortly after the Macross Saga book dropped, I argued that it could just as readily mean a protoculture bioreactor powering the engines.

-NG VFs are shown to have room to spare given things like the Alpha's cyclone Bay, Beta's "passenger bay", their docking system all are things that occupy space that could have been better utilized.

At the expense of performance in other areas, like propellant capacity. An advancement in one area that cripples other vital areas of performance isn't much of an advancement. This is the case with most of the stuff you listed.

Personally I have doubts that the Alpha should have been made into the intended successor to the Valkaryie, falling into that role due to circumstances is another matter. The Beta fighter (solo), at least in space, appears to result in a closer successor than the Alpha ever could.

Yeah, but they were kind of stuck with the material they had and the rough timeline they'd already put together, where the Alpha came into service before the Masters Saga mecha, and they couldn't get their ducks in a row regarding the Beta for YEARS, making the Alpha the logical choice for the VF-1's successor from a continuity standpoint. They were stuck making the best of a bad situation there.

[ShadowLogan]

@Gryphon:
It would probably be easier to explain the Reflex Furnace as using SLMH, PC, and a third material (based on "Bye Bye Mars" computer display). PC isn't required for the RF to work, it just makes it work better (higher energy output). Protoculture Chips are required to run a Reflex Furnace (even if it isn't using PC), and the active PC chip can be detected by the Invid.

A PC chip may make better use of the limited PC stockpile the SDF-1 could have brought. This also explains the origin of the SLMH production technology.

Yeah, but that would require original thought, something which has always been in short supply where Robotech is concerned, and a fair amount of weaseling out of the various inconsistencies those changes would bring when compared against the animation.

Take a page from the RPG's use of the PC canisters and allowing them to operate at half the cell count with penalties for TRM and NG. It's also possible that they where not operating at maximum performance either when shown.

(Given HG's desire to edit and re-edit they could do another edition to adjust the frame rate to cause an apparent increase in performance for NG/TRM)

Yeah, but they were kind of stuck with the material they had and the rough timeline they'd already put together,

Except nothing in the 85ep series points to the Alpha having to be available in the TMS-TRM interlude owing to the source of the animation. Maxwell's fighter do not have to be Alpha drones, they could be a GW/conventional design with a high fighter mode commonality with the Alpha design. Having a related frame between periods already exists (Carpenter's fighter does share a similar layout to the Alpha in many respects).

They did not have to keep the Sent. 2022 introduction of the Alpha/Beta given that everything post-85ep could be tossed to the side.

At the expense of performance in other areas, like propellant capacity. An advancement in one area that cripples other vital areas of performance isn't much of an advancement. This is the case with most of the stuff you listed.

It depends how the loss of performance is preceived and if the trade off is seen to be worth it by the customer (the uEEF) not bystanders (us).

Still they do showcase areas of advancement, they just did not make the best use of it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Take a page from the RPG's use of the PC canisters and allowing them to operate at half the cell count with penalties for TRM and NG. It's also possible that they where not operating at maximum performance either when shown.

Which then raises other complications both from a logical standpoint and from a "the animation shows different" standpoint... it's a no-win scenario.

(Given HG's desire to edit and re-edit they could do another edition to adjust the frame rate to cause an apparent increase in performance for NG/TRM)

It would have to be applied in an uniform fashion, and they'd have to seriously adjust things to draw out those scenes, which would just end up looking awkward... not to mention it'd **** off the few fans they have left.

Except nothing in the 85ep series points to the Alpha having to be available in the TMS-TRM interlude owing to the source of the animation. Maxwell's fighter do not have to be Alpha drones, they could be a GW/conventional design with a high fighter mode commonality with the Alpha design.

The simplest and most straightforward explanation is that Maxwell's fighters are Alpha drones. They're IDENTICAL to Alphas in design, and he establishes that the design is OLD. See how any attempt to address the issue ends up with more complications than the original problem itself presented?

[Seto Kaiba]

My one issue with Maxwell's drones is that in 2044 they would have been considered to be OLD if they were only fifteen years old, or ~2031.

That's a rather odd definition of "old", particularly with respect to fighter aircraft. Maxwell refers to his drones as being "antiques", and in terms of fighter service lifespans, 15 years is painfully short. It's hard to say what a mass production run duration is like in Robotech's universe, since production runs have a habit of ending prematurely due to having occasional near-misses with the apocalypse, but by modern standards it wouldn't be at all surprising for them to still be BUILDING the bloody things 15 years after their introduction. Maxwell's dialogue makes much more sense if we assume the ~30 year duration that officially exists is in effect, since Maxwell inherited the drones from his father.

If you edge it a "mere" 2-3 years back, you get a period just prior to the arrival of the Master and later Invid at Earth, a prototype drone testing the basic fighter shape that would lead to the Alpha, and a design that would not see completion as a full up VF fighter until around 2-35 or so...which would fit in a great deal more appropriately than the Alpha being a design that came right after the VF-1 and VF-4 in 2014!

Really, it doesn't fit at all when you consider that Maxwell's drones are supposed to be antiques, and that there's not anything in the series to establish that the UEEF had the massive manufacturing support base that it has in RTSC. A common definition of "antique" requires an age of 100 years, but obviously that doesn't work... the common definition applied to antique cars is that they must be 25+ years old, though the legal definition varies from state to state. I've consulted a few antique aircraft organizations but there doesn't seem to be much consensus on what constitutes an antique there, apart from that it has to be a design past its useful service life, which is 30+ years for a modern jet fighter. If Maxwell's drones are from the 2014-2015 period, they would fit that general definition of "antique", thus making sense with his dialogue.

Of course, there are other issues too... the way it is NOW at least makes a modicum of sense, even if it isn't all that consistent and really takes the **** out of the ASC.

[ShadowLogan]

Which then raises other complications both from a logical standpoint and from a "the animation shows different" standpoint... it's a no-win scenario.

I don't see how the animation could be shown to have a different standpoint if the "background information" is said to have them operating with half the cells necessary for full power performance. 1/2 the cells = 1/2 the performance in the RPG, and the numbers suggested previously wouldn't be that far off to be noticeable if operating in the 1/2cell state. Nor do characters seem concerned with stating their speed (IIRC Annie is the only one, and she does the KPH to MPH conversion in her head given we are shown the speedometer).

Logistics can be put down to the setting. Neither TMS nor TRM are as concerned with fuel logistics like the NG crew. It might be an issue for overall supply if the only the SDF-1 is said to have provided all of Earth's PC, but you could have salvage come from the Zentreadi (yes they are depleted for a fleet of ~6million ships, but for a much smaller human force it could be enough to run for decades).

It would have to be applied in an uniform fashion, and they'd have to seriously adjust things to draw out those scenes, which would just end up looking awkward... not to mention it'd **** off the few fans they have left.

I admit I don't want to see another editing job done to RT as it is. Still it would be an option if the whole operating below max performance (for what ever reason) doesn't float their boat.

The simplest and most straightforward explanation is that Maxwell's fighters are Alpha drones. They're IDENTICAL to Alphas in design, and he establishes that the design is OLD. See how any attempt to address the issue ends up with more complications than the original problem itself presented?

I disagree. There is no reason the Alpha's fighter mode could not be modeled to resemble an older fighter. IINM We don't get a full 360deg representation of the drones either, so differences could exist.

[Tiree]

Really, it doesn't fit at all when you consider that Maxwell's drones are supposed to be antiques, and that there's not anything in the series to establish that the UEEF had the massive manufacturing support base that it has in RTSC. A common definition of "antique" requires an age of 100 years, but obviously that doesn't work... the common definition applied to antique cars is that they must be 25+ years old, though the legal definition varies from state to state. I've consulted a few antique aircraft organizations but there doesn't seem to be much consensus on what constitutes an antique there, apart from that it has to be a design past its useful service life, which is 30+ years for a modern jet fighter. If Maxwell's drones are from the 2014-2015 period, they would fit that general definition of "antique", thus making sense with his dialogue.

Of course, there are other issues too... the way it is NOW at least makes a modicum of sense, even if it isn't all that consistent and really takes the **** out of the ASC.

I think Gryphon has a good point. You are putting a lot of weight in the words of a man who may or may not know anything about antiques. He was rich, he was pompous, they were old, and nobody makes them anymore.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think Gryphon has a good point. You are putting a lot of weight in the words of a man who may or may not know anything about antiques. He was rich, he was pompous, they were old, and nobody makes them anymore.

In this specific case, I don't think you can argue that... Maxwell's fairly up-front about the fact that he inherited them from his father, who would have to have acquired them before the Invid occupation began, as the Invid weren't exactly keen on the idea of humans having advanced weapons like that. That means Maxwell's father would have to have acquired them in 2030 or even earlier. Clearly neither Maxwell nor his father were ignorant when it came to those planes, as they were kept in good working order even during the occupation. So much so, in fact, that they could be launched at a moment's notice, and the house had all the fittings necessary to deploy and operate them remotely. Maxwell himself was apparently able to operate the three drones himself, which means he very clearly wasn't in the dark about the planes in his collection. On top of that, those planes were his most prized possessions, and it's kind of ridiculous on the face of it to suggest that he didn't know how old they were even though the show makes a fairly blunt point about how precious those antique planes were to him, to the point where Lancer cites Maxwell's sacrifice of them as proof that he deeply cares for Carla.

I don't think there's any reasonable grounds for suggesting that Maxwell didn't know what he was talking about.

I don't see how the animation could be shown to have a different standpoint if the "background information" is said to have them operating with half the cells necessary for full power performance.

For one, we're never shown any cells in the context of pre-New Gen designs. For two, there's nothing in the show which suggests that mecha can operate with half the number of cells they nominally require. For three, if you're re-editing that footage (as you suggested), you're going to produce inconsistencies in the level of performance simply by having scenes which will not be possible to edit, lending a lie to the "they're all half-fueled" theory.

1/2 the cells = 1/2 the performance in the RPG, and the numbers suggested previously wouldn't be that far off to be noticeable if operating in the 1/2cell state.

But there's nothing in the series that suggests that it works that way. Unless the peak output of the cells is very low, half the cells should mean half the endurance, not half the performance... the same way having half a tank of gas doesn't mean your car's top speed goes down 50%.

I admit I don't want to see another editing job done to RT as it is. Still it would be an option if the whole operating below max performance (for what ever reason) doesn't float their boat.

It's an unnecessarily convoluted explanation that causes considerably more problems than it addresses... it's rather putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?

I disagree. There is no reason the Alpha's fighter mode could not be modeled to resemble an older fighter. IINM We don't get a full 360deg representation of the drones either, so differences could exist.

We see the fighters from multiple angles, it's pretty damn evident that they're drone Alphas on the face of it. There's no precedent for a VF in Robotech to be modeled closely enough on a preceding design where one could be mistaken for the other readily. The only two sensible explanations are that they're either purpose-built drone versions of the existing Alpha platform (the explanation HG went with) or that the Alpha is so old and so decrepit that it was relegated to being a full-size target for live fire air combat training and converted into a drone after the fact.

[Sgt Anjay]

Um...
Err...

[Seto Kaiba]

Um...
Err...

Nice try, but even a blind man would have a hard time confusing the F-14 and VF-1... which would probably have a lot to do with the F-14 being over 33% larger than a VF-1. Other factors that would make it next to impossible to confuse them will naturally include their being proportioned rather differently, the F-14 lacking thrust vectoring nozzles and having a different configuration for its tail/stabilizers, the lack of the monitor turret and attached laser cannon on the F-14, etc.

A helpful visual aid can be found here, a top-down side-by-side comparison of the VF-1, VF-0, and F-14 from Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie (Vol.1, pg25).

It's not like the Unmanned Legioss/Alpha Drone from MOSPEADA/Robotech's New Generation, where the only real difference is in the canopy being replaced by an identically shaped enclosure with a camera in front.

[Sgt Anjay]

Easy to say when you're a diehard fan, have spent countless hours staring at the VF-1's design, and have seen side-by-side comparisons. It'd be pretty easy to confuse the two for your standard layman, since the look of one was based on the look of the other. I know I've freaked people out in the past with juxtaposition of screenshots and real-life photos of VF-84/103 aircraft.

[Seto Kaiba]

Easy to say when you're a diehard fan, have spent countless hours staring at the VF-1's design, and have seen side-by-side comparisons. It'd be pretty easy to confuse the two for your standard layman, since the look of one was based on the look of the other. I know I've freaked people out in the past with juxtaposition of screenshots and real-life photos of VF-84/103 aircraft.

Well, yes... it's easy for me to say because I'm a fan who spends a fair amount of time translating art books and such, and I know a bit about military aviation too.

You might be able to pull the wool over the eyes of a layman who's not seeing them side-by-side or with any sense of scale, but put them together and they're going to cotton on fairly quickly. If they know ANYTHING about the F-14, even just from seeing Top Gun, they're going to spot the VF-1 as a different craft entirely almost right away. Put them next to each other in the same show, and there's no way someone would confuse the two... they're just too different. The difference in size alone would be a huge giveaway, along with a hundred other things.

Robotech doesn't have any instances of two different fighter designs that are similar enough to be confused for each other the way ShadowLogan is asserting. The Alpha drone and Alpha fighter in "The Secret Route" are identical but for the canopy in the fighter being replaced by an opaque cover on the drone. The suggestion that the Alpha fighter mode was modeled to resemble an unrelated, earlier craft with an identical appearance is kind of nonsensical.


EDIT: As a side note, if you like pictures that make the VF-1 appear to be a real craft, the Master File books are a MOTHERLODE of them.

[jaymz]

I ma by no means an expert but I noticed the F-14 and VF-1 were not related/the same, though I assumed the VF-1 was inspired by the F-14...which IIRC it was.

[Sgt Anjay]

The suggestion that the Alpha fighter mode was modeled to resemble an unrelated, earlier craft with an identical appearance is kind of nonsensical.

What Shadowlogan actually said was "There is no reason the Alpha's fighter mode could not be modeled to resemble an older fighter."

I think what he's saying is that the Alpha is based on a related earlier craft, not an unrelated earlier craft, by virtue of being a successor to that earlier craft's design lineage.

That's a pretty serious distinction.

Especially since "The Alpha is based on a related earlier craft", a proposed drone no less, is exactly the take in the RPG.

I don't see how it is nonsensical. Especially since, while not being identical, the VF-1 is clearly "modeled to resemble an older fighter", as Shadowlogan said. They just stuck closer to the mold the second time around than the first.

[Sgt Anjay]

I ma by no means an expert but I noticed the F-14 and VF-1 were not related/the same, though I assumed the VF-1 was inspired by the F-14...which IIRC it was.

Well...they are related, insofar as the design of one was based on the other. But no, no everyone will think them the same when shown the two, but it isn't impossible to mistake the two.

[jaymz]

I ma by no means an expert but I noticed the F-14 and VF-1 were not related/the same, though I assumed the VF-1 was inspired by the F-14...which IIRC it was.

Well...they are related, insofar as the design of one was based on the other. But no, no everyone will think them the same when shown the two, but it isn't impossible to mistake the two.

I never saw them side by side for a while though yet still never mistook the VF-1 for a F-14.....maybe I am the exception *shrugs*

[Sgt Anjay]

I ma by no means an expert but I noticed the F-14 and VF-1 were not related/the same, though I assumed the VF-1 was inspired by the F-14...which IIRC it was.

Well...they are related, insofar as the design of one was based on the other. But no, no everyone will think them the same when shown the two, but it isn't impossible to mistake the two.

I never saw them side by side for a while though yet still never mistook the VF-1 for a F-14.....maybe I am the exception *shrugs*

I don't know that you're an exception, though I do think you probably had context to know that you weren't looking artwork of a real aircraft when having seen the VF-1. Its kinda beside the point, though. Really, what I was trying to get at is its kinda funny to say its "nonsensical" for a veritech in Robotech to be based on an earlier aircraft, cause the first veritech fighter clearly looks like an earlier aircraft on purpose.

[ShadowLogan]

For one, we're never shown any cells in the context of pre-New Gen designs. For two, there's nothing in the show which suggests that mecha can operate with half the number of cells they nominally require. For three, if you're re-editing that footage (as you suggested), you're going to produce inconsistencies in the level of performance simply by having scenes which will not be possible to edit, lending a lie to the "they're all half-fueled" theory.

No there isn't anything to show how the mecha pre-NG are "fueled" IINM.

Operating at 1/2 the number of cells is what "curtain Call" suggests, as Lunk is shown to only put one of the multi-packs into the Alpha (4 or 8 then depending on how one counts them). Also According to Lunk the team has "a dozen canisters or more" to fly the 4 VFs before they (Scott/Lunk/Rook) fly-in to save the city in the "Big Apple".

It maybe that the NG cells are setup to feed individual fuel injectors than to act as a "collective" fuel tank for all the fuel injectors. The difference being if only 1/2 the injectors are receiving fuel, that means you are only generating 1/2 the power. Fuel consumption also increases suggesting the mecha is attempting to compensate by using fuel x2 as fast (if injector use is staggard, and timing is changed it could result in 1/2power and 1/2 endurance).

They don't need to edit every scene either since they won't be using max performance all the time, which would allow them to limit the exposure to certain scenes. You assume they are doing top speed in all the air-air engagements, when that may simply not be the case. Circumstances may also limit their use of speed. Examples:
-Logan would not need to get up to max speed to intercept the Bioroids in "Southern Cross" as they where already at the base. Nor would it need the speed to provide air-cover to the 15th during their 1st insertion into the flagship
-the Alpha and Beta would need to restrict themselves to offer support for the ground elements of the team (Lunk's jeep, the Cyclones, the boat, hunt for Dusty Ares, BoRP, Syncro-cannon engagement).

[quote="Seto"]But there's nothing in the series that suggests that it works that way. Unless the peak output of the cells is very low, half the cells should
[quote="Seto"]We see the fighters from multiple angles, it's pretty damn evident that they're drone Alphas on the face of it. There's no precedent for a VF in Robotech to be modeled closely enough on a preceding design where one could be mistaken for the other readily. The only two sensible explanations are that they're either purpose-built drone versions of the existing Alpha platform (the explanation HG went with) or that the Alpha is so old and so decrepit
Anyway we've been over this before, I don't think we need to go round in circles again.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think what he's saying is that the Alpha is based on a related earlier craft, not an unrelated earlier craft, by virtue of being a successor to that earlier craft's design lineage.

That's a pretty serious distinction.

But no less incorrect, for all that.

The VF-6 Alpha isn't based on an earlier craft any more than the VF-1 is. Of course, the official materials have nothing to say about the Alpha design's origins, only how the YF-4 was passed over for the VF-X-6 in development. Mind you, what's actually said in the 2nd Edition RPG's core book (on pg.96) clearly indicates that the Alpha is not, in fact, based on a preceding craft's design. In truth, what it says is that the YQ-6000 became the Alpha fighter prototype. One is not based upon or derived from the other, they're the same craft. Literally, the VF-X-6 is described as the YQ-6000 manned edition.

I don't see how it is nonsensical. Especially since, while not being identical, the VF-1 is clearly "modeled to resemble an older fighter", as Shadowlogan said. They just stuck closer to the mold the second time around than the first.

It's nonsensical because there is no reason to base the Alpha on a previous design... the VF-1 only did it for reasons of maintaining secrecy. The Alpha had no such need. Incidentally, on reflection ShadowLogan's actual assertion was that it may have been that the Alpha's fighter mode was modeled to resemble an older craft, not that it was actually derived from one... which clearly doesn't work, and won't explain away the Alpha drones.

What one person sees as old or antiquated vary a great deal, but most technopiles tend to have a very short version of this one. and a fighter the was built for service around 2025 or so would be pushing antiquity by 2044, almost two decades of absolute no improvements to their airframe later.

Military technology, especially that of fighter aircraft, advances at a much slower pace than the consumer tech industry's developments. You can readily find fighters that have been in service for DECADES without being considered antiquated, with only comparatively minor block updates. We don't know how long an obsolescence cycle typically is in the universe Robotech occupies, since no fighter in the series ever meets a natural end to its service life. "Apocalypse" isn't an event that generally figures into useful service life projections.

Considering that the pace of technological development in Robotech seems to hit a dead stop around 2022 and then start backsliding, the Alpha may readily escape classification as "antiquated" even without periodic upgrades, simply as its creators haven't come up with anything more advanced.

After all, its not like there would have been a real need to upgrade them when they were intended to see rapid replacement with a manned model, and after they were retired from service [...]

I think you've hit on a false assumption here... those drones are clearly derived from completed Alpha airframes, where the prototype Alpha was derived from the earlier (and different) YQ-6000 drone. We know what the manned YQ-6000 (aka the VF-X-6) looks like, and it's quite a bit different from the drones we see. Those drones are something that came after they completed development of the YQ-6000 as the manned VF/A-6.

Maxwell's father could have gotten hold of them around the 2030 period, during the war with the Masters. 14 years later the now grown up and somewhat more mature Maxwell could have inherited them form his father, and they cold have been about 20 years old, maybe a few more years, and they would be antiques in the eyes of a technically skilled individual.

Warming to my theme, you're basing your argument around several false assumptions. There were no Alphas in the UEDF's arsenal, so if Maxwell's father was to acquire them he would've had to get them much earlier than the 2nd Robotech War... possibly around the time the Expeditionary Forces left, since the drone program is supposed to have continued after they'd decided that the YQ-6000 would do better as a manned fighter. Since the UEEF apparently didn't start using drone Alphas before they perfected their AI in 2043-2044, Maxwell's drones are most likely units from the parallel development of Alphas and drone Alphas in the late teens or twenties.

Judgments of "antique" and "obsolete" are generally based on actual functional obsolescence when it comes to aircraft, so with human technological development in a state of stasis, the drones would have to be very old indeed to be obsolete or considered antique.

Sure, it's a bit subjective, but otherwise we get to try and stomach the idea that someone thought stepping directly down to the Alpha's specification, well before the Beta made the Legios a possibility, was a good idea.

Ironically, this is exactly what the official material AND the RPG tell us is true... that the Alpha was deemed the right fighter for the job before the Beta ever became a factor.

Naturally, I am a bit skeptical of this concept. A Legios is a pretty good match for a Valkyrie, even a Super equipped model.

Not really... at least, not when you compare performance data and the like. That's a topic for another thread, or a PM conversation though. It's kind of an apples and oranges type thing in terms of operational roles.

Operating at 1/2 the number of cells is what "curtain Call" suggests, as Lunk is shown to only put one of the multi-packs into the Alpha (4 or 8 then depending on how one counts them). Also According to Lunk the team has "a dozen canisters or more" to fly the 4 VFs before they (Scott/Lunk/Rook) fly-in to save the city in the "Big Apple".

Amusingly, it's not shown to impact their performance... which suggests that half the fuel equals half the endurance, not half the performance. That would be the sensible approach in any event. Designing a fighter that loses performance by considerable degrees if it's not running on a full tank or all of its tanks simultaneously is a little absurd, even for Robotech.

[Sgt Anjay]

I think what he's saying is that the Alpha is based on a related earlier craft, not an unrelated earlier craft, by virtue of being a successor to that earlier craft's design lineage.

That's a pretty serious distinction.

But no less incorrect, for all that.

The VF-6 Alpha isn't based on an earlier craft any more than the VF-1 is.

Visually, the VF-1 is clearly based on an earlier aircraft and the visual is what is being referred to. Shadowlogan posits the same could be true of the Alpha lineage. That's not preposterous, that's taking something that's true for another veritech and expanding upon it.

Mind you, what's actually said in the 2nd Edition RPG's core book (on pg.96) clearly indicates that the Alpha is not, in fact, based on a preceding craft's design. In truth, what it says is that the YQ-6000 became the Alpha fighter prototype.

"In 2012, the Wraith was designed to replace the aging VQ-3000 Ghost robot drone fighter." Page 95. Are you proposing this replacement for the Ghost was a veritech drone? That's a pretty revolutionary assertion for the year 2012.

I myself got the impression the Wraith drone airframe was used to design a veritech fighter, which became the Alpha. After all, the Wraith was said to be receiving praise for its flight performance prior to the reformation of the United Earth Government after the Rain of Death (pgs 95-96), while the plans for the Alpha weren't drawn up until 2017 (pg 96), and it didn't start to actually fly until 2020 (also pg 96).

I don't see how it is nonsensical. Especially since, while not being identical, the VF-1 is clearly "modeled to resemble an older fighter", as Shadowlogan said. They just stuck closer to the mold the second time around than the first.

It's nonsensical because there is no reason to base the Alpha on a previous design... the VF-1 only did it for reasons of maintaining secrecy. The Alpha had no such need.

Yes, the VF-1 is the only military aircraft that's ever had need for secrecy.</sarcasm>

And there are plenty of other reasons to go to a proven airframe when designing a new one.

[Seto Kaiba]

Visually, the VF-1 is clearly based on an earlier aircraft and the visual is what is being referred to. Shadowlogan posits the same could be true of the Alpha lineage.

ShadowLogan's remarks are attempting to rationalize Maxwell's Alpha drones as not being Alpha drones, but rather a different plane that is visually identical to the Alpha fighter, something that has never happened in Robotech. Both of us acknowledge that there are craft with superficial similarity to older craft, like the VF-1, but a straight-up twin has never happened. (Ref. this post)

Mind you, what's actually said in the 2nd Edition RPG's core book (on pg.96) clearly indicates that the Alpha is not, in fact, based on a preceding craft's design. In truth, what it says is that the YQ-6000 became the Alpha fighter prototype.

"In 2012, the Wraith was designed to replace the aging VQ-3000 Ghost robot drone fighter." Page 95.

Query... what printing is your copy? Mine names the YQ-6000 as the "Phantom" on that page. That same page, only two sentences previously, identifies the Alpha as having been the "premier aerospace superiority mecha of the UEEF for nearly thirty years,". Now, having the Alpha be the UEEF's leading aerospace superiority fighter for almost thirty years raises an issue with the rest of the history there, which states that it didn't even enter testing until 2020, and limited service even later than that. The whole lot is suspect in its accuracy, even just internally to the RPG.

Are you proposing this replacement for the Ghost was a veritech drone? That's a pretty revolutionary assertion for the year 2012.

It's not out of the question, we know that the issue the United Earth Forces were having with veritech drones was one of difficulty making them operate independently, per the official Shadow drone coverage on Robotech.com. When they talk about the continued development of drone fighters, the RPG also refers exclusively to transformable ones... they might be headed that direction, honestly. One has to wonder if the YQ-6000 was also their testbed for a fighter with protoculture fuel cells instead of fusion engines...

Yes, the VF-1 is the only military aircraft that's ever had need for secrecy.

C'mon man, you know what I'm tilting at here... the VF-1 is said to have been visually based on the F-14 as a smokescreen to keep its nature as a transforming giant robot secret, by fooling the public into thinking it was just a more advanced F-14 derivative. (Macross Saga sourcebook pg52) By the time the Alpha came around, there was no need to hide the fact they were building a transforming fighter-slash-giant robot.

And there are plenty of other reasons to go to a proven airframe when designing a new one.

True, there are practical reasons to use lessons learned and such from a proven airframe when designing a new plane, and we'd be kidding ourselves if we said otherwise. On the other hand, there's no reason to make the new plane completely identical in appearance to the old one for no practical end.

[ShadowLogan]

It's nonsensical because there is no reason to base the Alpha on a previous design... the VF-1 only did it for reasons of maintaining secrecy. The Alpha had no such need. Incidentally, on reflection ShadowLogan's actual assertion was that it may have been that the Alpha's fighter mode was modeled to resemble an older craft, not that it was actually derived from one... which clearly doesn't work, and won't explain away the Alpha drones.

While there is no need for secrecy surrounding the project, modeling the fighter mode after an existing design would simplify testing (and likely speed up the design work) allowing them to focus more on other areas (like the new docking capacity). Designs can borrow from others to varying extents (and even combine aspects), so there is no real reason the Alpha could not borrow design elements from a previous vehicle(s).

Amusingly, it's not shown to impact their performance... which suggests that half the fuel equals half the endurance, not half the performance. That would be the sensible approach in any event. Designing a fighter that loses performance by considerable degrees if it's not running on a full tank or all of its tanks simultaneously is a little absurd, even for Robotech.

To the extent they operate at no it doesn't impact their performance, but in both instances they where not pushing the envelope so we can't say how much impact it was having on performance based soley on the animation. Which means it would not discount the RPG asertion that 1/2 the cells = 1/2 the performance.

[rtsurfer]

IIRC he called them old relics, said they used an obsolete navigational system called autopilot, and were his father's prized possessions.
They're probably either damaged Alphas or a non-transformable equivalent brought to Earth by the REF and used in the final battle with the Robotech Masters. Someone likely converted them to their present configuration, installed an old autopilot system and sold them to a rich dude who collected war relics.