mind bond and its limits

[madmarvin]

1).what are the limits of mind bond?

it says every thing including skills. i say that you get all the skill none of the physical bonuses, but all the knowledge of those skills.

2). spell knowledge?

yes as you have his understanding of magic but your ppe. also cast at his level ie hes a ten level wizard that call lighting you cast using every bit of ppe you possess is cast at tenth level.

3). could you record a spell formula so that another spell caster could learn it with in the time?

4). if you where say a spell caster that had mind bond, could you record the spell formula to relearn it? ei psionic demi-god leyline walker occ or a dragon etc.
(would make a great villian)

what are you opions and how would you handle each of these situations.

[Nekira Sudacne]

These are answered all over the place, but Mysteries of magic has answers for these questions, ... otherwise you are correct in your interpretations , but the Mysteries of magic book Also assumes you're gonna be using the staggered spell learning system from Through the glass Darkly/library of bletherad that requires a ton of ppe and alot of rolls to aquire magic.

just to note, the through the glass darkly system is about inventing new magic. actually learning new spells is still fairly simple so long as they already exist.

[Tor]

Most awesome use of mind bond: learning true names of deevils/demons.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Most awesome use of mind bond: learning true names of deevils/demons.

A guy playing a psychic in a game with me had that idea once. the GM's responce was mind bonding with an immortal creature with tens of thousands of years of experiances torturing mortals/being tortured by stronger demons resulted in automatic insanity save throws.

He got the true name. no player ever tried doing it again, though

[Tor]

This is why people should get into the BDSM scene before you trying to become a Summoner =/

[Nekira Sudacne]

This is why people should get into the BDSM scene before you trying to become a Summoner =/

[drewkitty ~..~]

1).what are the limits of mind bond?

It says every thing including skills. i say that you get all the skill none of the physical bonuses, but all the knowledge of those skills.

2). Spell knowledge?

Yes, as you have his understanding of magic but your PPE. also cast at his level i.e. he's a ten level wizard that call lighting you cast using every bit of PPE you possess is cast at tenth level.

3). Could you record a spell formula so that another spell caster could learn it with in the time?

4). If you where say a spell caster that had mind bond, could you record the spell formula to relearn it? i.e.: psionic demigod leyline walker OCC or a dragon etc.
(would make a great villain)

What are you opinions and how would you handle each of these situations.

the presented opinions are mine because there are no canon answers.
1) skips, too general a question.
2) spell knowledge...(converts to a more specific) ""Can I cast the spells the other has w/o having to "learn them"?""
Casting magic is is idiocentric to the individual mages. So the answer to that is No.
2.1)(another more specific) ""Can I learn how to cast the spells that the other mage has from the memories?""
Yes, the mind bond put into the mind of the mage what the shape of the spell energies need to be but that mage still needs to know how He (or She) needs to think to make those energy patterns for him-/herself. So it would take about the same mount of time to learn from the mind bond as it would be from having the mage teach him/her normally. The only thing I can see that would be more efficient would be that both of the mages who were in the mind bond can learn from each other's memories at the same time instead of one teaching and the other learning.
2.2) ""Does this let me a 3rd level mage cast things as if a 10th level mage?"" This would be up to the GM of your game. But I would not let this be the case in my games. This is where things are based on experience and are not at the level of the waking mind.
2.3) Could a Mind Melter learn Magic by Mind bonding a mage? In a limited sort, yes. However, as with all PCC's they have permanently burned off most of their PPE so they would be restricted in their spell casting to the spells their base PPE could power. Unless they find other sources of PPE to fuel the spells.
This burning off of their PPE is one of the reasons Psychic Char Classes can not become mages if they change classes.

3) You would end up with just notes that would help you remake the spell as per TtGD or MoM1 spell creation rules.

4) I would restrict doing this easily to NPC chars. Because most likely the char would not want the mage to be able to know what his/her plans are even for a short while. So the most likely outcome would be for the death of the mage in question. Or even a long term kidnaping.

[Akashic Soldier]

Most awesome use of mind bond: learning true names of deevils/demons.

A guy playing a psychic in a game with me had that idea once. the GM's responce was mind bonding with an immortal creature with tens of thousands of years of experiances torturing mortals/being tortured by stronger demons resulted in automatic insanity save throws.

He got the true name. no player ever tried doing it again, though

That is awesome! That is the kind of reason I love the versatility of Palladium so much!!!

[VR Dragon]

Well Mind bond and a mind wipe to follow is a great way to gain information. Since the bond shares all information between both subjects its can be a problem letting the bad guy know everything about you, but since the memories are temporary and will fade, the wipe can clear them away without the need to permanently burn away ISP. So the psychic learns all the info he needs and can write down what he will need of real importance and blank his victim so they have no information gained from the user.

[Tor]

I just thought of something odd about Mind Bond.

If a Deevil or a Demon (both who can be controlled by anyone who knows their true name) does a Mind Bond (some of the greater ones have access to super psi of choice) this would cause both of them to learn each other's true name. Both could write down that name so that even after the Bond wears off, they can remember it (in fact even if they lose the paper, having read off it, they could use Total Recall, if they have that, to remember reading the name).

What I'm wondering is: what happens if both know each other's name? Can they both control each other? Does it cancel out? Is there some kind of battle of wills to decide which name-knower gets more power of it.

How True Names work isn't always well clarified IMO. Like I'm not sure how it works if 2 people know a demon/devil's name and are giving him contrary orders like to go left versus right. Maybe it's whoever gave an order first? Last? Battle of wills between the two "he who knows the name" bros (or sis)? Whoever LAST learned the name? Whoever knew it first without transferring ownership to a new master?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I just thought of something odd about Mind Bond.

If a Deevil or a Demon (both who can be controlled by anyone who knows their true name) does a Mind Bond (some of the greater ones have access to super psi of choice) this would cause both of them to learn each other's true name. Both could write down that name so that even after the Bond wears off, they can remember it (in fact even if they lose the paper, having read off it, they could use Total Recall, if they have that, to remember reading the name).

What I'm wondering is: what happens if both know each other's name? Can they both control each other? Does it cancel out? Is there some kind of battle of wills to decide which name-knower gets more power of it.

How True Names work isn't always well clarified IMO. Like I'm not sure how it works if 2 people know a demon/devil's name and are giving him contrary orders like to go left versus right. Maybe it's whoever gave an order first? Last? Battle of wills between the two "he who knows the name" bros (or sis)? Whoever LAST learned the name? Whoever knew it first without transferring ownership to a new master?

Knowing someone's true name dosn't simply let you control them. Knowing a demon's true name lets a summoner target that demon specifically, instead of getting a random demon of the specified type, and then gives them penalties to the battle of wills.

Mysteries of magic has the full rules of the effects of knowing a true name, as well as how they can sort of change over time. breif answer, it's not control so much as a big penalty to saves aginst the person who knows it, as well as making it easy to scry/summon that person.

[Tor]

That's how it used to be Nekira, but based on how it's discussed in Dyval (dunno if Hades is similar) it appears just knowing the name is enough for utter domination. No battle of wills needed, no contribution toward summoner's limits of domination. There are Deevil NPCs mentioned as dominating other Deevil NPCs yet they are not summoners. It mentions that any mortal knowing the name can control them, not just Summoners.

Wasn't aware of true name knowledge giving penalties to battle of wills though. This would be interesting to note for beings other than Demons/Deevils since they lack the automatic subservience to name-knowers. Makes me wonder if things like Elementals even have them though. I could see Fairies having them.

Now I'm wanting to read MoM to find out about these true name penalties though, sound useful for enchanting humans.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That's how it used to be Nekira, but based on how it's discussed in Dyval (dunno if Hades is similar) it appears just knowing the name is enough for utter domination. No battle of wills needed, no contribution toward summoner's limits of domination. There are Deevil NPCs mentioned as dominating other Deevil NPCs yet they are not summoners. It mentions that any mortal knowing the name can control them, not just Summoners.

Wasn't aware of true name knowledge giving penalties to battle of wills though. This would be interesting to note for beings other than Demons/Deevils since they lack the automatic subservience to name-knowers. Makes me wonder if things like Elementals even have them though. I could see Fairies having them.

Now I'm wanting to read MoM to find out about these true name penalties though, sound useful for enchanting humans.

Actually sinse Mysteries of Magic came out after, it superceeds the hades and deevil book. mostly sinse having them controled so easially is rather stupid and contradicts eairly material as well.

Also, while I don't have the deevil book, what I read of the Hades book leads me to beleive that even in those cases, the deevils used some method not listed to exersie control beyond the name*

[Tor]

The text makes it pretty clear that it works for everyone though, so it wouldn't be some unmentioned deevil-only ability.

Does MoM explicitly say that knowing the true name of a demon or deevil doesn't allow you to control them?

[Nekira Sudacne]

The text makes it pretty clear that it works for everyone though, so it wouldn't be some unmentioned deevil-only ability.

Does MoM explicitly say that knowing the true name of a demon or deevil doesn't allow you to control them?

Your going to make me dig it out of my stack, arn't you? one moment.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It says that knowing one's true name means they have no save vs. magic of any kind (not even PE bonus) and are additionally -2 to a battle of wills. Additionally you can be scryed on and located trivially and summoned by anyone who knows how

[Tor]

I don't think this utterly eliminates the explicit text in Dyval though....

I think what it means is there is a difference between just knowing the name (which thousands of people could know) and being the unique 1-person-only status of "He Who Knows the Name".

Such people do not need a battle of wills, do not need to be summoners. The book implies that there can only be one, but I forget how it's determined. I think either the first who learns the name has to transfer ownership or else whoever learned it last gains the control.

If it was first-come-first-serve this would give some insight as to why some deevils might voluntarily give their name to a deevil lord or a regent. If they plan to serve them anyway, it doesn't matter that they turn over that control.

The advantage there would be that if a mortal or a demon or something later also learned the name, while they would get the BoW penalties and magic save problem, they wouldn't be autoslaves.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't think this utterly eliminates the explicit text in Dyval though....

I think what it means is there is a difference between just knowing the name (which thousands of people could know) and being the unique 1-person-only status of "He Who Knows the Name".

Such people do not need a battle of wills, do not need to be summoners. The book implies that there can only be one, but I forget how it's determined. I think either the first who learns the name has to transfer ownership or else whoever learned it last gains the control.

If it was first-come-first-serve this would give some insight as to why some deevils might voluntarily give their name to a deevil lord or a regent. If they plan to serve them anyway, it doesn't matter that they turn over that control.

The advantage there would be that if a mortal or a demon or something later also learned the name, while they would get the BoW penalties and magic save problem, they wouldn't be autoslaves.

That actually makes a fair deal of sense to me. Especially since it lists one of the weakness of someone knowing your true name is they can sell it to your enemies, in which case everyone they tell gets the same thing (but clearly not all get auto control or else a disagreement between them is impossible to resolve).

EDIT: I also realize my post before this one was unclear. When I said knowing someone's true name means they have no save vs. magic of any kind, I meant they have no bonus to save vs. magic of any kind. They do still get a save throw, but it's a straight roll of the die.

[Mouser13]

I done this before and created scrolls of the spells to learn any spells I needed from them perm. The old main book had 10% +2% per level of learning spells from scrolls. Though it didn't say how long it took.

[Tor]

Keep in mind that every time you attempt to learn a spell from a scroll, you read it and use it up. So if you had only a 10% chance of learning it, you might need to make 10 scrolls to learn that spell.

[Goliath Strongarm]

2.3) Could a Mind Melter learn Magic by Mind bonding a mage? In a limited sort, yes. However, as with all PCC's they have permanently burned off most of their PPE so they would be restricted in their spell casting to the spells their base PPE could power. Unless they find other sources of PPE to fuel the spells.
This burning off of their PPE is one of the reasons Psychic Char Classes can not become mages if they change classes.

I'm going to add onto Drew's comments here...

While I don't have my limited RIFTs materials in front of me, I can't comment on the Mind Melter specifically, however, in PF, the Psychic classes aren't allowed to change OCCs at all. Not sure if RIFTs has the same limitation or not..

So, if they DID learn the magic, they would constantly be having to have PPE batteries, and paying other people to charge them, since they wouldn't even have the PPE to do it themselves.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is nothing Published in rifts that lets a char change it's class.

(goes into a drone like I've said this what feels like a million times, because if I don't some rifter will bring it up trying to use it as a counter argument.)
Yes, there are some optional stuff posted in the cutting room floor, but it has not been Published in a Book.
If they want it to be canon it needs to be in a book where the computer-less can get it.
--------------------



Note on quoted selection. I was speaking in a liberal sense as a hypothetical to illustrate as to one of the reasons behind the "why" PCC's/Psychic chars/Psychic classes ([drone]however you want to call them[/drone]) do not change classes, and not to magic classes in particular.

[Tor]

in PF, the Psychic classes aren't allowed to change OCCs at all. Not sure if RIFTs has the same limitation or not.

It's true that in PF2nd ed that the PCC classes (Mind Mage, Psi-Mystic, Psi-Healer) have notes about multiple OCCs not being possible for them.

Which is odd, and a change from the original Palladium RPG, where Mind Mages were certainly able to be multiple OCCs, they just have a tendency to be too arrogant to want to, especially other magic OCCs.

There is nothing Published in rifts that lets a char change it's class. there are some optional stuff posted in the cutting room floor, but it has not been Published in a Book. If they want it to be canon it needs to be in a book where the computer-less can get it.

CB1pg28: "Wizards and Diabolists of third level or less can switch their OCC to Techno-Wizard. The previous OCC and skills are permanently frozen and the Techno-Wizard OCC and related skills start at level 1".

If that's possible, why not everything else? The rules were present in the original Palladium RPG, and were included in the accidentally omitted errata for Palladium Fantasy RPG 2nd Edition.

The rules for Palladium are Megaversal, they apply to all systems unless there are explicit exceptions (such as MD spells reverting to normal damage in non-MDC dimensions, technology being annihilated entering Nightbane's dimension).

We know canonically that there are NPCs exhibiting multiple OCCs in Rifts, since we know it is possible in the Rifts Dimension, we simply need rules for it. Since there aren't any new/changed rules printed in a Rifts book, we revert to using Palladium RPG's pre-established rules.

Lacking the rules in a "rifts" book is irrelevant. Mercenaries has a chi-power using NPC, even though the rules for calculating his chi are only present in Ninjas and Superspies. We don't need "rifts" rules, only Palladium rules. It's ALL canon.

Not sure why Rifts is being treated as some distinct thing from the rest of Palladium, it isn't.

[Nightmask]

in PF, the Psychic classes aren't allowed to change OCCs at all. Not sure if RIFTs has the same limitation or not.

It's true that in PF2nd ed that the PCC classes (Mind Mage, Psi-Mystic, Psi-Healer) have notes about multiple OCCs not being possible for them.

Which is odd, and a change from the original Palladium RPG, where Mind Mages were certainly able to be multiple OCCs, they just have a tendency to be too arrogant to want to, especially other magic OCCs.

There is nothing Published in rifts that lets a char change it's class. there are some optional stuff posted in the cutting room floor, but it has not been Published in a Book. If they want it to be canon it needs to be in a book where the computer-less can get it.

CB1pg28: "Wizards and Diabolists of third level or less can switch their OCC to Techno-Wizard. The previous OCC and skills are permanently frozen and the Techno-Wizard OCC and related skills start at level 1".

If that's possible, why not everything else? The rules were present in the original Palladium RPG, and were included in the accidentally omitted errata for Palladium Fantasy RPG 2nd Edition.

The rules for Palladium are Megaversal, they apply to all systems unless there are explicit exceptions (such as MD spells reverting to normal damage in non-MDC dimensions, technology being annihilated entering Nightbane's dimension).

We know canonically that there are NPCs exhibiting multiple OCCs in Rifts, since we know it is possible in the Rifts Dimension, we simply need rules for it. Since there aren't any new/changed rules printed in a Rifts book, we revert to using Palladium RPG's pre-established rules.

Lacking the rules in a "rifts" book is irrelevant. Mercenaries has a chi-power using NPC, even though the rules for calculating his chi are only present in Ninjas and Superspies. We don't need "rifts" rules, only Palladium rules. It's ALL canon.

Not sure why Rifts is being treated as some distinct thing from the rest of Palladium, it isn't.

Because some just don't like chocolate in their peanut butter and others don't like peanut butter on their chocolate.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Because some just don't like chocolate in their peanut butter and others don't like peanut butter on their chocolate.

And while that is one reason (albeit a good one), there are plenty of places where the rules don't agree, and aren't megaversal.

But, if you want to use the rules from PF, then go with it.. but that also means the psychics won't be changing classes, because the psychic OCCs are all prohibited from changing OCCs in PF.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Maybe I should of said, "There are no Published Genral rules about changing class for rifts. "

Yes Tor, there are several VERY Specific rules concering specific classes, and Classes From Other Settings To Rifts classes. ALL of which can only be applied to those very specific cases.

Book NPCs: If they break the rules they break them, and can not be used to justify making something that is "not canon" as "canon".
Yes, you can use them to make up your own house rules. But those are outside of canon.
Have you read my sig? Notice the part how questions should be answered?

Had to answer Tor's question about why the settings are seperate now as a PM. If you want a copy of that answer then PM me.

[Nightmask]

Because some just don't like chocolate in their peanut butter and others don't like peanut butter on their chocolate.

And while that is one reason (albeit a good one), there are plenty of places where the rules don't agree, and aren't megaversal.

But, if you want to use the rules from PF, then go with it.. but that also means the psychics won't be changing classes, because the psychic OCCs are all prohibited from changing OCCs in PF.

Given PCC were removed from existence as a classification for consideration and they're an OCC no different than a mage or power armor pilot they're no more prohibited than anyone else from changing OCC. Which is as it should be, there's no reason why a Mind Melter couldn't give up on developing his psychic powers and decide he wanted to develop his mind as a Rogue Scientist instead, or a Psi-Tech become a Techno-Wizard (although in such cases they should develop the same basic PPE as any other starting member of the OCC).

[Tor]

that also means the psychics won't be changing classes, because the psychic OCCs are all prohibited from changing OCCs in PF.

Actually that only applies to the specific PCCs in Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition. Those notes are under the specific classes, it isn't a rule that applies to all PCCs or Psychic OCCs.

Maybe I should of said, "There are no Published Genral rules about changing class for rifts. "

Sure there are. http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... alocc.html even while listed under Palladium Fantasy® 2nd Edition errata is obviously phrased with Rifts in mind.

character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic).

"Adventurers" is a Rifts category, PF 2nd Ed doesn't have an 'adventurers' category, it only has clergy, men of arms, psychics, practitioners of magic and optionals.

Yes Tor, there are several VERY Specific rules concering specific classes, and Classes From Other Settings To Rifts classes. ALL of which can only be applied to those very specific cases.

Nowhere does it say the rules for Dual OCCs are restricted to Palladium Fantasy. It's a Megaversal rule system. If it's an OCC, you can learn it. Heck, even the HU power categories were referred to as OCCs in CB1. PCCs have also been called OCCs.

Book NPCs: If they break the rules they break them, and can not be used to justify making something that is "not canon" as "canon".

They don't break any rules though. They just use rules published in other books. Are you arguing that Chiang-Six in Villains Unlimited breaks the rules just because we didn't get stats for Chaing-Ku dragons until Rifts England? Although I will relent: he has some unique tattoos that differ from the ones in Atlantis.

you can use them to make up your own house rules. But those are outside of canon.

Multiple OCCs aren't a house rule, they're official Palladium errata here and have been published before. Sure, Kevin hasn't reprinted them and is probably trying to bury them much like the chi rules in N&SS, Manhunters, Shadows of Light, but they're all canon.

Given PCC were removed from existence as a classification for consideration

RUE not including PCCs and changing previous psychic RCCs to OCCs doesn't mean they were removed from existence.

they're an OCC no different than a mage or power armor pilot

Well slightly different: you need to be of a race with psychic abilities to select them, presumably.

they're no more prohibited than anyone else from changing OCC. Which is as it should be, there's no reason why a Mind Melter couldn't give up on developing his psychic powers and decide he wanted to develop his mind as a Rogue Scientist instead, or a Psi-Tech become a Techno-Wizard (although in such cases they should develop the same basic PPE as any other starting member of the OCC).

Only Mind Melters have officially been changed to an OCC. Psyscape hasn't been updated so the argument could be made that they're still a psychic RCC or a PCC. I'm willing to wager a flexible GM can see the dotted lines though and treat all the psychic classes in Psyscape (cept Psi-Slayer and Psi-Ghost, for I think obvious reasons) as being equally learnable as Bursting/Melting.

That said: the PCCs in Palladium Fantasy specifically go out of their way to forbid multiple OCCs, so even if we re-labelled them as OCCs that wouldn't change the fact that you couldn't change if you were them.

GMs can (quite reasonably) ignore that though, since Mind Mages could originally have multiple OCCs in PRPG1, and since they're basically Mind Melter equivalents. Just like the 'psi-mystic' is equivalent to Rifts' Mystic.

Speaking of Rifts Mystic, RUE kinda left them behind in the big boosting update didn't they?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Maybe I should of said, "There are no Published Genral rules about changing class for rifts. "

Sure there are. http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... alocc.html even while listed under Palladium Fantasy® 2nd Edition errata is obviously phrased with Rifts in mind.

And I covered this in my privius post just under how somebody would drag this bit of information about the optional stuff posted in the cutting room floor.

As to my point about changing class is that "There are no genrale rules that allow players to change the class of their chars to a different class in rifts canon." (IOW rifts players are out of luck if they want to change their char's class if there are no class specific change rules(as to and from jusicer and borg classes) They are So Out Of Luck because Kevin has not included in the published rifts books genralized changing class rules.

To Re-Iterate: To be Published is to be in a physical book. Not just posted somewhere.

ALL the settings canon are seperate. "why?" Because the rifters don't like it when the old hands here point out that they is a perfectly good canon text in another setting and they go "That is not rifts, it is not in a rifts book. It doesn't count in Rifts."

So the Rifters have spoken in the amlgamation of their multitued of posts rejecting the other settings canon as canon applicable to rifts. So no Setting canon has any canon athourty outside it's own setting, INCLUDING RIFTS canon.

Thus the only PF canon is found in pf books.
HU canon is only found in HU books.
Rifts canon is only found in rifts books.
etc...
etc...
etc...

[Goliath Strongarm]

ALL the settings canon are seperate. "why?" Because the rifters don't like it when the old hands here point out that they is a perfectly good canon text in another setting and they go "That is not rifts, it is not in a rifts book. It doesn't count in Rifts."

So the Rifters have spoken in the amlgamation of their multitued of posts rejecting the other settings canon as canon applicable to rifts. So no Setting canon has any canon athourty outside it's own setting, INCLUDING RIFTS canon.

Thus the only PF canon is found in pf books.
HU canon is only found in HU books.
Rifts canon is only found in rifts books.
etc...
etc...
etc...

Except the RIFTs players want it all their way. It doesn't apply unless it benefits them, then it applies.. does this surprise anyone?

Also, and while I don't have books open in front of me (and am trying to convince my daughter to go to sleep in a dark room, so won't be opening anytime soon), it's explained SOMEWHERE (see a few words ago on why I can't give book and page number) that a characters PPE is burned up in the development of their psychic powers and ISP. Which is why psychic classes don't multiclass...

And whoever brought up first edition rules.. that was silliness. Because how you determined powers in 1st edition was a lot different! Psionics was handled a LOT different! SILLINESS I SAY!

[Nightmask]

ALL the settings canon are seperate. "why?" Because the rifters don't like it when the old hands here point out that they is a perfectly good canon text in another setting and they go "That is not rifts, it is not in a rifts book. It doesn't count in Rifts."

So the Rifters have spoken in the amlgamation of their multitued of posts rejecting the other settings canon as canon applicable to rifts. So no Setting canon has any canon athourty outside it's own setting, INCLUDING RIFTS canon.

Thus the only PF canon is found in pf books.
HU canon is only found in HU books.
Rifts canon is only found in rifts books.
etc...
etc...
etc...

Except the RIFTs players want it all their way. It doesn't apply unless it benefits them, then it applies.. does this surprise anyone?

Also, and while I don't have books open in front of me (and am trying to convince my daughter to go to sleep in a dark room, so won't be opening anytime soon), it's explained SOMEWHERE (see a few words ago on why I can't give book and page number) that a characters PPE is burned up in the development of their psychic powers and ISP. Which is why psychic classes don't multiclass...

And whoever brought up first edition rules.. that was silliness. Because how you determined powers in 1st edition was a lot different! Psionics was handled a LOT different! SILLINESS I SAY!

Rifts is explicitly a multiversal setting, so it would seem then that where applicable the rules of, you know, the rest of the multiverse must be in play including the ability to multi-class.

As has also often been noted the psionic classes aren't generally shown to have used up any PPE at all and have just as much or more PPE than an average person. The word 'permanent' is also treated as having greater relevance than it actually has, saying its their 'permanent PPE base' no more means they can't develop their PPE than saying a normal non-spellcasting human can't when he's referred to as having a permanent PPE base. It just means like with everyone else that their starting PPE is a particular random number that is within the norm for any other non-magical class.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Rifts is explicitly a multiversal setting, so it would seem then that where applicable the rules of, you know, the rest of the multiverse must be in play including the ability to multi-class.

As pretty much all of the PB settings are supposed to be multiversal, yet we are constantly coming across places where the rules don't mesh. That having been said, in the RIFTs forums, many people have been quite adamant about how you can't go taking rules from other places and applying them to RIFTs... So is that to be out the window, simply because it is convenient? I myself agree that because there are so many places where the rules don't mesh, each set of rules needs to be outlined in it's own setting. Of course, that's also because I don't think people should have to buy a book for a setting they don't play for access to certain rules. Of course, if you're going to go with this, then you need to flip through the rest of the PF, look at the psi- classes, and see that they are all prohibited from changing OCCs. If you want to take part of it, you need to take all of it.

As has also often been noted the psionic classes aren't generally shown to have used up any PPE at all and have just as much or more PPE than an average person.

Not sure about RIFTs, and don't have access to my RIFTs stuff right now.. but, in PF, you can look at a Mind Mage for only 1D6 PPE (the PF version of the Mind Melter). Depending on what race (s)he is, that can be a large drop. Now, the Healer has 2d6, which is the same for a human.. but for some other races, that can be a drop... and the mystic is a moot point, because they still cast spells.

The word 'permanent' is also treated as having greater relevance than it actually has, saying its their 'permanent PPE base' no more means they can't develop their PPE than saying a normal non-spellcasting human can't when he's referred to as having a permanent PPE base. It just means like with everyone else that their starting PPE is a particular random number that is within the norm for any other non-magical class.

Semi-Agreed. As stated previously, the psychic classes burned away their PPE in developing their psychic abilities. That is why they have lower than normal. And, previously on this post, you'll see my reason on why they can't take a class that will improve their PPE..

[Nightmask]

The word 'permanent' is also treated as having greater relevance than it actually has, saying its their 'permanent PPE base' no more means they can't develop their PPE than saying a normal non-spellcasting human can't when he's referred to as having a permanent PPE base. It just means like with everyone else that their starting PPE is a particular random number that is within the norm for any other non-magical class.

Semi-Agreed. As stated previously, the psychic classes burned away their PPE in developing their psychic abilities. That is why they have lower than normal. And, previously on this post, you'll see my reason on why they can't take a class that will improve their PPE..

1d6 compared to 2d6 really isn't significant, and in looking at mages they obviously have 10 to 50 times the PPE of a normal human (and even a child as the peak of a normal human in PPE generally only has like 6d6 ) so clearly part of the training to become a mage vastly increases someone's PPE, there's nothing about being a psionic that makes it impossible for them to build up their PPE (certainly nothing logical or rational, because 'well I think that's what the books say' doesn't qualify). Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE, the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Really, there's no reason why a psionic couldn't change class, there's nothing about the classes that shut your brain off and make it impossible for you to learn other things or change your interests over time, which is pretty much the argument claiming that they can't change to a different class. That once you're a Mind Melter (for example) you develop a psychological obsession with the powers and are incapable of deciding that maybe you'd like to become a Rogue Scholar and changing pursuits. Indeed that in the given example your defeat, no matter how crushing or total or repeated, can never shatter your belief that psionic powers are the greatest thing ever and you'll always continue to want to use them no matter how ineffective they are and how effective you see the Ley Line Walker or Power Armor Pilot being. Sorry but totally breaks suspension of disbelief.

[Goliath Strongarm]

1d6 compared to 2d6 really isn't significant, and in looking at mages they obviously have 10 to 50 times the PPE of a normal human (and even a child as the peak of a normal human in PPE generally only has like 6d6 ) so clearly part of the training to become a mage vastly increases someone's PPE, there's nothing about being a psionic that makes it impossible for them to build up their PPE (certainly nothing logical or rational, because 'well I think that's what the books say' doesn't qualify). Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE, the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Really, there's no reason why a psionic couldn't change class, there's nothing about the classes that shut your brain off and make it impossible for you to learn other things or change your interests over time, which is pretty much the argument claiming that they can't change to a different class. That once you're a Mind Melter (for example) you develop a psychological obsession with the powers and are incapable of deciding that maybe you'd like to become a Rogue Scholar and changing pursuits. Indeed that in the given example your defeat, no matter how crushing or total or repeated, can never shatter your belief that psionic powers are the greatest thing ever and you'll always continue to want to use them no matter how ineffective they are and how effective you see the Ley Line Walker or Power Armor Pilot being. Sorry but totally breaks suspension of disbelief.

Well, like stated previously, in PF (you know, the setting that actually has the changing OCC rules...) each of the psionic classes actually says CANNOT CHANGE OCCs. But then, if you just want to pick and choose what you take, fine. Just backs up my statement previously about RIFTs players...

And, you're right.. for a human, only losing 1d6 isn't that much. But, that's 1/2 the normal PPE... for an elf, that's (iirc) 1/6 the normal. Different races, different numbers. Did you take that into consideration? Don't look at it as "he lost 1d6", but "he lost HALF the PPE he would have had". For other races, it's even worse.

I have other things to say, but I can't think of a way to say them that wouldn't get me in trouble, so I'll hold back...

[Nightmask]

1d6 compared to 2d6 really isn't significant, and in looking at mages they obviously have 10 to 50 times the PPE of a normal human (and even a child as the peak of a normal human in PPE generally only has like 6d6 ) so clearly part of the training to become a mage vastly increases someone's PPE, there's nothing about being a psionic that makes it impossible for them to build up their PPE (certainly nothing logical or rational, because 'well I think that's what the books say' doesn't qualify). Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE, the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Really, there's no reason why a psionic couldn't change class, there's nothing about the classes that shut your brain off and make it impossible for you to learn other things or change your interests over time, which is pretty much the argument claiming that they can't change to a different class. That once you're a Mind Melter (for example) you develop a psychological obsession with the powers and are incapable of deciding that maybe you'd like to become a Rogue Scholar and changing pursuits. Indeed that in the given example your defeat, no matter how crushing or total or repeated, can never shatter your belief that psionic powers are the greatest thing ever and you'll always continue to want to use them no matter how ineffective they are and how effective you see the Ley Line Walker or Power Armor Pilot being. Sorry but totally breaks suspension of disbelief.

Well, like stated previously, in PF (you know, the setting that actually has the changing OCC rules...) each of the psionic classes actually says CANNOT CHANGE OCCs. But then, if you just want to pick and choose what you take, fine. Just backs up my statement previously about RIFTs players...

And, you're right.. for a human, only losing 1d6 isn't that much. But, that's 1/2 the normal PPE... for an elf, that's (iirc) 1/6 the normal. Different races, different numbers. Did you take that into consideration? Don't look at it as "he lost 1d6", but "he lost HALF the PPE he would have had". For other races, it's even worse.

I have other things to say, but I can't think of a way to say them that wouldn't get me in trouble, so I'll hold back...

Yes I did actually take into account that on average that just for the human alone that's potentially half what the non-psionic human might have. Which is why I included the reference to the PPE of the mage class in the discussion and how the training clearly vastly augments ones natural PPE by the time they reach 1st level. Just like if someone got $4 and you only got $2, you have half what they did but it's really not a big deal in comparison to the guy who got $200. In becoming the Ley Line Walker his 'investment' of PPE is improved many times over compared to the individual who didn't take a class that worked his starting PPE and matured it into the starting fund of PPE the LLW had by 1st level.

As far as the other things go, yes if they were going to be comments about 'just wanting power' or anything remotely like that yes probably a good idea not to voice them since it's more about the storytelling aspects and it stifles certain logical paths of development if a character can't undergo plausible changes over time.

[Prysus]

Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE, the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Greetings and Salutations. What the book actually says is ...

Most of the psychic's P.P.E. has been expended in the development of his psychic abilities.

That's taken from the Mind Melter (power 4) in RUE, but similar quotes can be found in nearly all the psychic classes (in RUE, as well as PF). I can't find the quote saying "burning off" (though I do want to say that sounds familiar), what it says is that it's been "expended." Similar in concept, though slightly different. That's still very different than "hindered P.P.E. development," which is just wrong.

In BtS1, we can see the theory in a bit more detail, as they describe the P.P.E. is used to develop the psionics and converted into I.S.P. to power those psionics. You even have to spend P.P.E. to select your psionics. Since we're discussing this Megaversal, I decided to get Megaversal with it.

Now, with all of that said (theory and house rules to follow) ...

In PF it does say that the class cannot select multiple O.C.C. By the strict reading of the words, a Psi-Sensitive can never learn any other class. I've (personally) always theorized that this meant someone can't become a psychic (because you need to be born that way), but the psychic (could in theory) learn another non-psionic class. Though, since most psychics believe their psionics are everything, they're very unlikely to do this.

To make matters even more complicated, we have to figure out how mage's get such a large P.P.E. base. Clearly they don't just start off with this amount, and it's something they have to learn. An adult human (2D6 P.P.E.) can learn to become a mage and develop a larger base/permanent P.P.E. base. This is done by learning to "draw upon, nurture and hold Potential Psychic Energy."

Factoring in this, along with the fact that a mage's P.P.E. continues to grow as well, we can deduce that a mage must be learning to draw in P.P.E. from outside sources (ambient P.P.E. or off a ley line) and then hold that P.P.E. in their bodies. Their starting P.P.E. is the limit of how much they can hold. As the mage grows in experience, they learn to hold more P.P.E. in this way. This also helps explain how a mage draws in that extra P.P.E. off ley lines and can hold it for a time (but not indefinitely, because it exceeds their capability to hold steady).

If this theory is true, then there's nothing that should stop a psychic from being able to become a mage. However, if we look at it from a concept and book mechanic's point of view, if psionics are developed by expending P.P.E., and a psychic can learn to develop P.P.E. the same as a mage, the psychic could (in theory) burn off all that mage P.P.E. to learn a bunch of new psionics ... which would clearly be breaking the system.

So from a concept point of view, there's nothing that should be able to stop a psychic from multi-classing (though it's unlikely they'd do so). From a game mechanics point of view, it makes perfect sense that they can't.

Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Nightmask]

Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE, the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Greetings and Salutations. What the book actually says is ...

Most of the psychic's P.P.E. has been expended in the development of his psychic abilities.

That's taken from the Mind Melter (power 4) in RUE, but similar quotes can be found in nearly all the psychic classes (in RUE, as well as PF). I can't find the quote saying "burning off" (though I do want to say that sounds familiar), what it says is that it's been "expended." Similar in concept, though slightly different. That's still very different than "hindered P.P.E. development," which is just wrong.

In BtS1, we can see the theory in a bit more detail, as they describe the P.P.E. is used to develop the psionics and converted into I.S.P. to power those psionics. You even have to spend P.P.E. to select your psionics. Since we're discussing this Megaversal, I decided to get Megaversal with it.

Now, with all of that said (theory and house rules to follow) ...

In PF it does say that the class cannot select multiple O.C.C. By the strict reading of the words, a Psi-Sensitive can never learn any other class. I've (personally) always theorized that this meant someone can't become a psychic (because you need to be born that way), but the psychic (could in theory) learn another non-psionic class. Though, since most psychics believe their psionics are everything, they're very unlikely to do this.

To make matters even more complicated, we have to figure out how mage's get such a large P.P.E. base. Clearly they don't just start off with this amount, and it's something they have to learn. An adult human (2D6 P.P.E.) can learn to become a mage and develop a larger base/permanent P.P.E. base. This is done by learning to "draw upon, nurture and hold Potential Psychic Energy."

Factoring in this, along with the fact that a mage's P.P.E. continues to grow as well, we can deduce that a mage must be learning to draw in P.P.E. from outside sources (ambient P.P.E. or off a ley line) and then hold that P.P.E. in their bodies. Their starting P.P.E. is the limit of how much they can hold. As the mage grows in experience, they learn to hold more P.P.E. in this way. This also helps explain how a mage draws in that extra P.P.E. off ley lines and can hold it for a time (but not indefinitely, because it exceeds their capability to hold steady).

If this theory is true, then there's nothing that should stop a psychic from being able to become a mage. However, if we look at it from a concept and book mechanic's point of view, if psionics are developed by expending P.P.E., and a psychic can learn to develop P.P.E. the same as a mage, the psychic could (in theory) burn off all that mage P.P.E. to learn a bunch of new psionics ... which would clearly be breaking the system.

So from a concept point of view, there's nothing that should be able to stop a psychic from multi-classing (though it's unlikely they'd do so). From a game mechanics point of view, it makes perfect sense that they can't.

Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

A very nice and well-reasoned response. My only quibble is that when you mention the idea of a psychic taking up being a mage and spending the PPE to develop more psionics by the game mechanics you can't actually do that (well, other than the Psi-Mechanic, he'd have more PPE to expend creating psi-mechanic gear and the class is already self-limiting). Psychics don't have game mechanics to spend any kind of points to gain their psionics so you can't increase a point pool and thereby give them more psionics to work with.

[Tor]

And I covered this in my privius post just under how somebody would drag this bit of information about the optional stuff posted in the cutting room floor. As to my point about changing class is that "There are no genrale rules that allow players to change the class of their chars to a different class in rifts canon."

Sure there is, Palladium canon is Rifts canon, the MEGAverse.

(IOW rifts players are out of luck if they want to change their char's class if there are no class specific change rules(as to and from jusicer and borg classes) They are So Out Of Luck because Kevin has not included in the published rifts books genralized changing class rules.

You're not out of luck just because you don't possess the book rules are published in. Rules don't cease to exist just because someone doesn't own the book. Does lacking Underseas mean that people can't silent-cast underwater in Rifts Earth?

To Re-Iterate: To be Published is to be in a physical book. Not just posted somewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_publishing is still publishing. Something doesn't have to be paper-published to be canon. Are you saying that the web-published stuff that was left out of RUE isn't canon?

ALL the settings canon are seperate. "why?" Because the rifters don't like it when the old hands here point out that they is a perfectly good canon text in another setting and they go "That is not rifts, it is not in a rifts book. It doesn't count in Rifts."

Rifters not liking other setting's canonicity doesn't negate their canonicity. The books reiterate constantly that the setting is one giant Megaverse.

So the Rifters have spoken in the amlgamation of their multitued of posts rejecting the other settings canon as canon applicable to rifts. So no Setting canon has any canon athourty outside it's own setting, INCLUDING RIFTS canon.

I'm really not sure where you're getting this. That this might be some Rifts players/GMs attitude is irrelevant, it ignores the books which establish universal canon.

Thus the only PF canon is found in pf books.
HU canon is only found in HU books.
Rifts canon is only found in rifts books.

There is only Palladium canon, aka Megaverse canon. There are no individual canons.

I've seen stuff like this crop up with Dune, were Frank's is the central canon and Brian's is the 'expanded universe' or whatever, but Kevin hasn't died and been replaced by some guy who's flipped the product. He's been here from the start and is still here, so there's not any solid basis to establish a canon barrier on.

it's explained SOMEWHERE (see a few words ago on why I can't give book and page number) that a characters PPE is burned up in the development of their psychic powers and ISP. Which is why psychic classes don't multiclass...

I believe I know what you're referring to, but I think it's being remembered wrongly.

Going back to RMB, pg103bursters "most of the person's PPE has been expended in the development of psychic abilities. The remaining PPE base is 2D6" This was repeated on pg106 for stalkers. This was identical to the standard PPE most people got. Dog boys had the same text in spite of having 3D6, which is more than most humans. Melters had it with 2D4.

Nowhere did it mention that psychics initially had more PPE than normal people or anything like that. It mentions PPE is burned off to develope psychic abilities. Skills also burn them off though, as other PBs have explained.

And whoever brought up first edition rules.. that was silliness. Because how you determined powers in 1st edition was a lot different! Psionics was handled a LOT different! SILLINESS I SAY!

It's not silly at all. Psionics weren't determined differently. Every species with the potential for psychic abilities rolled a random chance of having them, and could be a minor, major or master. The major difference was that powers were grouped into levels rather than genres.

PB settings are supposed to be multiversal, yet we are constantly coming across places where the rules don't mesh.

It happens. There are probably cases even within a single setting where the same author has contradicted themselves in 2 different (or even the same) book. Mistakes don't negate the Megaversal aspect of the settings.

in the RIFTs forums, many people have been quite adamant about how you can't go taking rules from other places and applying them to RIFTs... So is that to be out the window, simply because it is convenient?

It's out the window because it's wrong. Who is saying this? Where? I'll go call'm out. All rules can be applied to all settings. In cases of contradictions, they can be puzzled out. About the only non-megaversal thing that comes to mind with me is MDC.

because there are so many places where the rules don't mesh, each set of rules needs to be outlined in it's own setting.

Rules just get changed, even in different printings, much less editions, of a single setting. Doesn't mean the dimensions have different rules unless that's explicit.

you need to flip through the rest of the PF, look at the psi- classes, and see that they are all prohibited from changing OCCs. If you want to take part of it, you need to take all of it.

Nowhere in PF does it say PCCs as a whole can't have multiple OCCs. The notation is listed individually, under each PCC.

It would've been simpler to just have a note at the beginning saying 'no multiple OCCs for PCCs'. But it didn't, instead it noted it under the specific classes.

The necessity of that derives from PCCs (and RCCs) being able to change to OCCs. That's how we got a Mind Melter CS Special Forces in Soulharvest.

psychic classes burned away their PPE in developing their psychic abilities. That is why they have lower than normal.

The only psychic classes that have lower than normal PPE are the highest-tier (Mind Melter/Mind Mage) and some later ones like Psi-Techs. Bursters/Stalkers had normal PPE, some of the later ones had higher than normal.

in PF (you know, the setting that actually has the changing OCC rules...) each of the psionic classes actually says CANNOT CHANGE OCCs.

Yes. Each of them. Meaning it only applies to them, not other PCCs. Meaning yes, 2nd Edition Mind Mages can't have multiple OCCs. But Mind Melters and 1st Edition Mind Mages can.

And, you're right.. for a human, only losing 1d6 isn't that much. But, that's 1/2 the normal PPE... for an elf, that's (iirc) 1/6 the normal. Different races, different numbers. Did you take that into consideration? Don't look at it as "he lost 1d6", but "he lost HALF the PPE he would have had". For other races, it's even worse.

I think we should only look at these in net amounts rather than percentages. Spells don't usually cost "half your PPE". Nor do specific permanent PPE costs that naturals/geniuses burn off to learn their talents.

In 1st ed Beyond the Supernatural (the origin of PCC) you didn't expend fractions of total PPE, you expended fixed costs. You had to permanently sacrifice 1 PPE to learn Death Trance, for example. Or 6 PPE to learn Telekinesis.

This system of purchasing them for various costs was dropped though. I actually like the old system of either PPE perm cost for psionics, or having 8 levels of psychic abilities. Now there's for the most part just 2 tiers, master or lesser. Suddenly TK and DT have exactly the same cost and value even though they used to be a 1:6 ratio.

Basically all that 'sacrifice PPE stuff' is leftover Beyond the Supernatural flavour text which actually has no bearing on the mechanics of gameplay, because psionics no longer have PPE values, unless they kept those in 2nd ed of BeySu.

By the strict reading of the words, a Psi-Sensitive can never learn any other class. I've (personally) always theorized that this meant someone can't become a psychic (because you need to be born that way), but the psychic (could in theory) learn another non-psionic class.

If this were the case, PCCs would be treated like primary martial arts forms. As in you could begin with them, but you couldn't learn them later after you've been something else first.

we have to figure out how mage's get such a large P.P.E. base. Clearly they don't just start off with this amount, and it's something they have to learn. An adult human (2D6 P.P.E.) can learn to become a mage and develop a larger base/permanent P.P.E. base. This is done by learning to "draw upon, nurture and hold Potential Psychic Energy."

Yup. Though generally since most mages begin learning magic before reaching adulthood, they'll actually be starting off with the 3d6 or 4d6 or whatever it is kids/teens get.

Factoring in this, along with the fact that a mage's P.P.E. continues to grow as well, we can deduce that a mage must be learning to draw in P.P.E. from outside sources (ambient P.P.E. or off a ley line) and then hold that P.P.E. in their bodies.

No, that isn't what's happening. That's a completely separate process. The mage's tolerance for PPE grows. They can regenerate it on their own, or refill it from external sources, but the increase in maximum isn't specified as having anything to do with outside sources. It's an aspect of experience. The more you work with magical energy, the more you can hold in you.

This applies to permanent amounts, and possibly also to how much excess you can hold. I wish I could remember where those rules were on temporarily holding PPE above maximum. What was it again, 3 times base for PE in hours? Bleh... can't even remember if that was canon or not.

Their starting P.P.E. is the limit of how much they can hold. As the mage grows in experience, they learn to hold more P.P.E. in this way. This also helps explain how a mage draws in that extra P.P.E. off ley lines and can hold it for a time (but not indefinitely, because it exceeds their capability to hold steady).

if psionics are developed by expending P.P.E., and a psychic can learn to develop P.P.E. the same as a mage, the psychic could (in theory) burn off all that mage P.P.E. to learn a bunch of new psionics ... which would clearly be breaking the system.

It wouldn't be breaking any system, because the 'spend PPE to buy psionics' system isn't used in Rifts classes, it's used in BeySu classes.

Besides, seeing as how psychics learn more powers as they level up, that could very well mean their PPE is going up and they're just automatically burning it off for powers. They gain ISP as they level up too, and PPE can be burned off permanently to gain ISP as well (as per Astral Lords).

From a game mechanics point of view, it makes perfect sense that they can't.

What exactly is a game mechanics point of view? Is this some 'balance' nonsense in a world where PC's invisible teleporting regenerating genius dragons can pilot glitter boys?

Psi/Mages really aren't as unbalancing as people are thinking. It's actually a lot less relevant now than it would've been in the past, now that magic can be cast at psionic-like speeds. Who needs pyrokinesis when you can firebolt? It used to be the speed factor but that's gone now.

the Psi-Mechanic, he'd have more PPE to expend creating psi-mechanic gear and the class is already self-limiting).

In a Rifts World with Gizmoteers, extra PPE for imports of BeySu/BetShad Psi-Mechanics is an utter joke.

[eliakon]

The argument for Line Canon vs Megaversal Canon
1) there are mutually exclusive rules published in different lines that use different materials
-casting times in PF vs Rifts
-what an 'automatic dodge is in N&SS vs HU
2) that there has never been an explicit statement of the Megaversality of all the rules
3) that the SYSTEM is megaversal, ie all the megaverse products use the same basic game engine, but that they tweek it for the specific line.

I understand that some people do not like/accept this argument, that is their right. I do not think there IS a "right" answer at this time, since both sides can point to arguments to defend their position.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sorry Tor,
But posting stuff is still is not Publishing it.
The line in the sand was drawn by the Rifters not me..even if I'm the one saying it out loud.

[Damian Magecraft]

The word 'permanent' is also treated as having greater relevance than it actually has, saying its their 'permanent PPE base' no more means they can't develop their PPE than saying a normal non-spellcasting human can't when he's referred to as having a permanent PPE base. It just means like with everyone else that their starting PPE is a particular random number that is within the norm for any other non-magical class.

Semi-Agreed. As stated previously, the psychic classes burned away their PPE in developing their psychic abilities. That is why they have lower than normal. And, previously on this post, you'll see my reason on why they can't take a class that will improve their PPE..

1d6 compared to 2d6 really isn't significant, a 50% drop not significant? and in looking at mages they obviously have 10 to 50 times the PPE of a normal human (and even a child as the peak of a normal human in PPE generally only has like 6d6 only? thats an 80% drop from child to Mind Mage... and a 60+% drop from child to "average adult") so clearly part of the training to become a mage vastly increases someone's PPE, there's nothing about being a psionic that makes it impossible for them to build up their PPE (certainly nothing logical or rational, because 'well I think that's what the books say' doesn't qualify). Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE,no burning off? what do you call the 60% drop from child to adult then? the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Really, there's no reason why a psionic couldn't change class, there's nothing about the classes that shut your brain off and make it impossible for you to learn other things or change your interests over time, which is pretty much the argument claiming that they can't change to a different class. That once you're a Mind Melter (for example) you develop a psychological obsession with the powers and are incapable of deciding that maybe you'd like to become a Rogue Scholar and changing pursuits. Indeed that in the given example your defeat, no matter how crushing or total or repeated, can never shatter your belief that psionic powers are the greatest thing ever and you'll always continue to want to use them no matter how ineffective they are and how effective you see the Ley Line Walker or Power Armor Pilot being. Sorry but totally breaks suspension of disbelief.

And now you claim that Psi are ineffective? or is that just hyperbole?

[Nightmask]

The word 'permanent' is also treated as having greater relevance than it actually has, saying its their 'permanent PPE base' no more means they can't develop their PPE than saying a normal non-spellcasting human can't when he's referred to as having a permanent PPE base. It just means like with everyone else that their starting PPE is a particular random number that is within the norm for any other non-magical class.

Semi-Agreed. As stated previously, the psychic classes burned away their PPE in developing their psychic abilities. That is why they have lower than normal. And, previously on this post, you'll see my reason on why they can't take a class that will improve their PPE..

1d6 compared to 2d6 really isn't significant, a 50% drop not significant? and in looking at mages they obviously have 10 to 50 times the PPE of a normal human (and even a child as the peak of a normal human in PPE generally only has like 6d6 only? thats an 80% drop from child to Mind Mage... and a 60+% drop from child to "average adult") so clearly part of the training to become a mage vastly increases someone's PPE, there's nothing about being a psionic that makes it impossible for them to build up their PPE (certainly nothing logical or rational, because 'well I think that's what the books say' doesn't qualify). Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE,no burning off? what do you call the 60% drop from child to adult then? the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Really, there's no reason why a psionic couldn't change class, there's nothing about the classes that shut your brain off and make it impossible for you to learn other things or change your interests over time, which is pretty much the argument claiming that they can't change to a different class. That once you're a Mind Melter (for example) you develop a psychological obsession with the powers and are incapable of deciding that maybe you'd like to become a Rogue Scholar and changing pursuits. Indeed that in the given example your defeat, no matter how crushing or total or repeated, can never shatter your belief that psionic powers are the greatest thing ever and you'll always continue to want to use them no matter how ineffective they are and how effective you see the Ley Line Walker or Power Armor Pilot being. Sorry but totally breaks suspension of disbelief.

And now you claim that Psi are ineffective? or is that just hyperbole?

I have no idea where you arrive at that statement, given it has absolutely no basis in anything I've said. Even adult dragons and alien intelligences can be dealt humiliating defeats let alone a mortal Mind Melter and a mortal Mind Melter unlike a dragon doesn't have racial memories and other things that interfere with ones ability to change ones chosen career. So even with the best psionic selections possible the Mind Melter could just have the misfortune of being in a spot where his life-molding experiences leave him broken and humiliated and seeking more, including perhaps forgoing his advances as a Mind Melter to become what seems more effective whether it be Ley Line Walker, Power Armor Pilot, or even Rogue Scholar.

Yes, 50% is insignificant when you're talking 1d6 vs 2d6. On the larger scale it means nothing compared to what a mage has generally. I should also point out the concept of atrophy, where something diminishes due to lack of use. Which is why children have the peak potential growing up but it diminishes by adulthood and why for SOME psychic classes it atrophies even more since they aren't working and developing it which requires some kind of magic study or orientation. BUT by switching to a mage class one begins working those PPE 'muscles' and building them back up again, this is also why switching from one magic class to another doesn't get you combined starting PPE because you've already been working the 'muscles' so they're already highly developed and the new class can't give them an even bigger boost.

[Goliath Strongarm]

You know Night, you see it how you want to see it. If you're GMing your group, you can rule how you want.

If it's at my table, and the issue comes up, I'm going to make sure the player understands that munchkinism, or any attempts at such, are not allowed, nor are bendings and twistings of the rules.

You see it how you want, but, it's smacking of munchkinism, as have several of your other posts, and it frankly offends me.

You claim to want valid, solid arguments, but then won't listen to them. You see what you want, which is to build things even bigger and more powerful, which is phase 1 of munchkin gaming. Only the most powerful way of twisting the rules will do, after all. You pick and choose what parts you want to listen to, but only to back up your argument. Which, more often than not, is about an argument, and not about a valid rules discussion.

And, if you report me for this, and the Mods, after reading it, decide that something in here is worth giving me a suspension over, then so be it. But the attitude of people like you is the reason that a lot of the old timers, myself included, have left the boards over the years. Grow up.

Warning: Please respond to the substance of the user's post rather than discussing the user. Discussing the user directly in this fashion is considered a violation of the forum rules regarding flaming/harassment/trolling.

[Goliath Strongarm]

You know Night, you see it how you want to see it. If you're GMing your group, you can rule how you want.

If it's at my table, and the issue comes up, I'm going to make sure the player understands that munchkinism, or any attempts at such, are not allowed, nor are bendings and twistings of the rules.

You see it how you want, but, it's smacking of munchkinism, as have several of your other posts, and it frankly offends me.

You claim to want valid, solid arguments, but then won't listen to them. You see what you want, which is to build things even bigger and more powerful, which is phase 1 of munchkin gaming. Only the most powerful way of twisting the rules will do, after all. You pick and choose what parts you want to listen to, but only to back up your argument. Which, more often than not, is about an argument, and not about a valid rules discussion.

And, if you report me for this, and the Mods, after reading it, decide that something in here is worth giving me a suspension over, then so be it. But the attitude of people like you is the reason that a lot of the old timers, myself included, have left the boards over the years. Grow up.

Warning: Please respond to the substance of the user's post rather than discussing the user. Discussing the user directly in this fashion is considered a violation of the forum rules regarding flaming/harassment/trolling.

And see, Night, I saved you the trouble, and reported myself...

[Nightmask]

You know Night, you see it how you want to see it. If you're GMing your group, you can rule how you want.

If it's at my table, and the issue comes up, I'm going to make sure the player understands that munchkinism, or any attempts at such, are not allowed, nor are bendings and twistings of the rules.

You see it how you want, but, it's smacking of munchkinism, as have several of your other posts, and it frankly offends me.

You claim to want valid, solid arguments, but then won't listen to them. You see what you want, which is to build things even bigger and more powerful, which is phase 1 of munchkin gaming. Only the most powerful way of twisting the rules will do, after all. You pick and choose what parts you want to listen to, but only to back up your argument. Which, more often than not, is about an argument, and not about a valid rules discussion.

And, if you report me for this, and the Mods, after reading it, decide that something in here is worth giving me a suspension over, then so be it. But the attitude of people like you is the reason that a lot of the old timers, myself included, have left the boards over the years. Grow up.

Warning: Please respond to the substance of the user's post rather than discussing the user. Discussing the user directly in this fashion is considered a violation of the forum rules regarding flaming/harassment/trolling.

And see, Night, I saved you the trouble, and reported myself...

That was good of you, since you've definitely twisted and misrepresented my motivations and position on things. Part of maturity does include being able to handle people having different viewpoints and respect them enough to get along without getting personal. I'm certainly old enough and grown up enough to manage that (although being human I like everyone else occasionally slip up but try to avoid it wherever possible).

[Damian Magecraft]

The word 'permanent' is also treated as having greater relevance than it actually has, saying its their 'permanent PPE base' no more means they can't develop their PPE than saying a normal non-spellcasting human can't when he's referred to as having a permanent PPE base. It just means like with everyone else that their starting PPE is a particular random number that is within the norm for any other non-magical class.

Semi-Agreed. As stated previously, the psychic classes burned away their PPE in developing their psychic abilities. That is why they have lower than normal. And, previously on this post, you'll see my reason on why they can't take a class that will improve their PPE..

1d6 compared to 2d6 really isn't significant, a 50% drop not significant? and in looking at mages they obviously have 10 to 50 times the PPE of a normal human (and even a child as the peak of a normal human in PPE generally only has like 6d6 only? thats an 80% drop from child to Mind Mage... and a 60+% drop from child to "average adult") so clearly part of the training to become a mage vastly increases someone's PPE, there's nothing about being a psionic that makes it impossible for them to build up their PPE (certainly nothing logical or rational, because 'well I think that's what the books say' doesn't qualify). Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE,no burning off? what do you call the 60% drop from child to adult then? the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Really, there's no reason why a psionic couldn't change class, there's nothing about the classes that shut your brain off and make it impossible for you to learn other things or change your interests over time, which is pretty much the argument claiming that they can't change to a different class. That once you're a Mind Melter (for example) you develop a psychological obsession with the powers and are incapable of deciding that maybe you'd like to become a Rogue Scholar and changing pursuits. Indeed that in the given example your defeat, no matter how crushing or total or repeated, can never shatter your belief that psionic powers are the greatest thing ever and you'll always continue to want to use them no matter how ineffective they are and how effective you see the Ley Line Walker or Power Armor Pilot being. Sorry but totally breaks suspension of disbelief.

And now you claim that Psi are ineffective? or is that just hyperbole?

I have no idea where you arrive at that statement, given it has absolutely no basis in anything I've said. Even adult dragons and alien intelligences can be dealt humiliating defeats let alone a mortal Mind Melter and a mortal Mind Melter unlike a dragon doesn't have racial memories and other things that interfere with ones ability to change ones chosen career. So even with the best psionic selections possible the Mind Melter could just have the misfortune of being in a spot where his life-molding experiences leave him broken and humiliated and seeking more, including perhaps forgoing his advances as a Mind Melter to become what seems more effective whether it be Ley Line Walker, Power Armor Pilot, or even Rogue Scholar.

Yes, 50% is insignificant when you're talking 1d6 vs 2d6. On the larger scale it means nothing compared to what a mage has generally. I should also point out the concept of atrophy, where something diminishes due to lack of use. Which is why children have the peak potential growing up but it diminishes by adulthood and why for SOME psychic classes it atrophies even more since they aren't working and developing it which requires some kind of magic study or orientation. BUT by switching to a mage class one begins working those PPE 'muscles' and building them back up again, this is also why switching from one magic class to another doesn't get you combined starting PPE because you've already been working the 'muscles' so they're already highly developed and the new class can't give them an even bigger boost.

That has to be the absolute best munchkin argument I have ever read to date.

[eliakon]

Off hand.....can anyone point to a canon source anywhere that says that you cant later develop and train to have a higher PPE base? I am not talking about if a psi can or can not change class. I am asking for a canon "thou shalt not improve thy ppe after thus and such a point"
anyone?

[Damian Magecraft]

Off hand.....can anyone point to a canon source anywhere that says that you cant later develop and train to have a higher PPE base? I am not talking about if a psi can or can not change class. I am asking for a canon "thou shalt not improve thy ppe after thus and such a point"
anyone?

BTS

[drewkitty ~..~]

Off hand.....can anyone point to a canon source anywhere that says that you cant later develop and train to have a higher PPE base? I am not talking about if a psi can or can not change class. I am asking for a canon "thou shalt not improve thy ppe after thus and such a point"
anyone?

Even if a psychic char could change their class to a mage class successfully, it would take 7-14 years in game to do so. That would effectively take that char out of the game they were in permanently.

As a GM I might allow such a thing to happen to get that char out of the game and it's player to quit the game.
But then again it would be much easier just to kill the char off, and tell the player he is not welcome.

[Nightmask]

1d6 compared to 2d6 really isn't significant, a 50% drop not significant? and in looking at mages they obviously have 10 to 50 times the PPE of a normal human (and even a child as the peak of a normal human in PPE generally only has like 6d6 only? thats an 80% drop from child to Mind Mage... and a 60+% drop from child to "average adult") so clearly part of the training to become a mage vastly increases someone's PPE, there's nothing about being a psionic that makes it impossible for them to build up their PPE (certainly nothing logical or rational, because 'well I think that's what the books say' doesn't qualify). Plus as already noted there really isn't any 'burning off' of PPE,no burning off? what do you call the 60% drop from child to adult then? the best you can argue is that the focus on advancing your psionics just hindered your PPE development.

Really, there's no reason why a psionic couldn't change class, there's nothing about the classes that shut your brain off and make it impossible for you to learn other things or change your interests over time, which is pretty much the argument claiming that they can't change to a different class. That once you're a Mind Melter (for example) you develop a psychological obsession with the powers and are incapable of deciding that maybe you'd like to become a Rogue Scholar and changing pursuits. Indeed that in the given example your defeat, no matter how crushing or total or repeated, can never shatter your belief that psionic powers are the greatest thing ever and you'll always continue to want to use them no matter how ineffective they are and how effective you see the Ley Line Walker or Power Armor Pilot being. Sorry but totally breaks suspension of disbelief.

And now you claim that Psi are ineffective? or is that just hyperbole?

I have no idea where you arrive at that statement, given it has absolutely no basis in anything I've said. Even adult dragons and alien intelligences can be dealt humiliating defeats let alone a mortal Mind Melter and a mortal Mind Melter unlike a dragon doesn't have racial memories and other things that interfere with ones ability to change ones chosen career. So even with the best psionic selections possible the Mind Melter could just have the misfortune of being in a spot where his life-molding experiences leave him broken and humiliated and seeking more, including perhaps forgoing his advances as a Mind Melter to become what seems more effective whether it be Ley Line Walker, Power Armor Pilot, or even Rogue Scholar.

Yes, 50% is insignificant when you're talking 1d6 vs 2d6. On the larger scale it means nothing compared to what a mage has generally. I should also point out the concept of atrophy, where something diminishes due to lack of use. Which is why children have the peak potential growing up but it diminishes by adulthood and why for SOME psychic classes it atrophies even more since they aren't working and developing it which requires some kind of magic study or orientation. BUT by switching to a mage class one begins working those PPE 'muscles' and building them back up again, this is also why switching from one magic class to another doesn't get you combined starting PPE because you've already been working the 'muscles' so they're already highly developed and the new class can't give them an even bigger boost.

That has to be the absolute best munchkin argument I have ever read to date.

Then you clearly have the most ridiculously expansive definition of munchkin of I've ever seen, that you think things atrophying from lack of use and growing stronger with use and practice is munchkin. I gather you must find someone seeking the Body Building skill to be munchkin, since he wants to work his muscles and increase his physical strength and SDC and you define someone working to improve some aspect of themselves as munchkin.