Astral Projection questions

[Riftmaker]

If someone is astral projecting onto the real world, not the astral plane and they are a spell caster can they caste spells?

Can the astral form see in the dark?

[drewkitty ~..~]

If someone is astral projecting onto the real world, not the astral plane and they are a spell caster can they caste spells?

Can the astral form see in the dark?

yes. It is only through magic and psi that the astral traveler can interact with the physical world.

And the 2nd is a good question, don't have an answer off hand.

[Riftmaker]

If someone is astral projecting onto the real world, not the astral plane and they are a spell caster can they caste spells?

Can the astral form see in the dark?

yes. It is only through magic and psi that the astral traveler can interact with the physical world.

And the 2nd is a good question, don't have an answer off hand.

Here's my problem. On on hand I want an astral projecting character to be able to walk through a sealed door and see whats on the other side. If i let them cast spells like say globe of daylight whats to keep them from casting call lightning or flame bolt and being an invisible intangible assassin?

[Grand Paladin]

I posted a very similar topic a few weeks ago here:

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=136761

[Grand Paladin]

If someone is astral projecting onto the real world, not the astral plane and they are a spell caster can they caste spells?

Can the astral form see in the dark?

yes. It is only through magic and psi that the astral traveler can interact with the physical world.

And the 2nd is a good question, don't have an answer off hand.

Here's my problem. On on hand I want an astral projecting character to be able to walk through a sealed door and see whats on the other side. If i let them cast spells like say globe of daylight whats to keep them from casting call lightning or flame bolt and being an invisible intangible assassin?

Basically that is what my character did as a Temporal Warrior with the Astral Projection spell during an encounter with a Coalition tank crew.

[Tor]

Query: what happens if a CS Psi-Nullifier hits your astral projector with anti-ISP?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Query: what happens if a CS Psi-Nullifier hits your astral projector with anti-ISP?

Nothing. Psi-nullifiers have no ability to effect magic or psionics already active, they can only effect them if they're in their nullification range at the moment of activation.

[Goliath Strongarm]

If someone is astral projecting onto the real world, not the astral plane and they are a spell caster can they caste spells?

Can the astral form see in the dark?

Palladium Fantasy, page 168
The astral body cannot communicate with the physical world except through telepathy or empathy, nor speak to, smell or touch anything on the material plane. The astral self is little more than a mute, ghostly observer.

Now, the other settings might read differently.. (and it wouldn't be the first time), so I can't speak with final authority there right now..

But, based upon the PF version... you aren't going to do much of anything. Also, since you are a mute, ghostly observer, you wouldn't be able to cast spells anyway.

[Tor]

nullifiers have no ability to effect magic or psionics already active, they can only effect them if they're in their nullification range at the moment of activation.

Appears you're right... though this wasn't the impression I got initially reading it, took a second closer reading to understand. The reason it's a bit odd is because it switches back and forth between it being a reflex that the Nullifier can't control/stop with a small range, versus being able to willingly expend extra ISP or make pre-emptive strikes to protect others.

Even in the case of willing non-reflex attacks it still has that 'while being cast' caveat.

Mulling this over though... how do we deal with spells like Fire Globe or Annihilation? They aren't instant spells like Fireball or Call Lightning which would be negatable. They summon something into existence which can later be thrown...

At that point the spell is already successfully cast... does that mean the Nullifier is at the mercy of these delayed spells? Similarly for things like Lightblade or Psi-Sword.

Some of the example psionics it mentions are Object Read, Ectoplasmic Disguise and Telemechanics. Using Disguise as an example... presumably this means that if you activate Ectoplasmic Disguise within 10 foot of a Nullifier, he will react to it, but otherwise, if you successfully start it outside of their reflex radius, they can't do anything about it.

Being that the thread uses the example of the magic spell version of Astral Projection, this opens up Nega-Psychics for discussion...

Reading their 'Disrupt Magic' ability I can't find similar wording which restricts it to only negating magic during casting. Unlike Nullifiers, Nega-Psychics do not have an automatic reflex and must willingly expend the PPE, as far as I can tell. This is a bit of a defensive disadvantage, since it would require being aware of magic.

Since there's no wording which specifies that Nega-Psychics can only negate a spell while being cast, I take this to mean they can also negate (unlike Nullifiers) magic which has already successfully been cast. I think this is good, it gives them a niche. It lets them compensate for their lack of auto-defense by having more varied usage, and balances out the whole "I can do everything you can and more" annoying aspect of Nullifiers.

So while a Nega-Psychic could unsummon your Lightblade or your Shadow Beast when you ambush him in the woods, a Nullifier could not unless you tried summoning them in his presence.

[Killer Cyborg]

If someone is astral projecting onto the real world, not the astral plane and they are a spell caster can they caste spells?

Can the astral form see in the dark?

yes. It is only through magic and psi that the astral traveler can interact with the physical world.

And the 2nd is a good question, don't have an answer off hand.

Here's my problem. On on hand I want an astral projecting character to be able to walk through a sealed door and see whats on the other side. If i let them cast spells like say globe of daylight whats to keep them from casting call lightning or flame bolt and being an invisible intangible assassin?

Spells cast when astral, as a rule, only affect other beings on the same astral level as the caster (or the caster himself).
So Call Lightning wouldn't do any good against material beings if the caster is astral.

I'm not sure what Globe of Daylight would do; I don't think that's ever addressed anywhere.
You could either rule that it would be unnecessary, ruling that astral beings can see in the dark, or you could rule that the spell generates a kind of astral light that only astral beings* can see.

*Or, possible, creatures that can See Invisible, since I believe they can also see astral beings.

[Goliath Strongarm]

My problem is that they are MUTE observers... Mute meaning that they cannot cast spells. So, really, it would be a moot argument.

[eliakon]

nullifiers have no ability to effect magic or psionics already active, they can only effect them if they're in their nullification range at the moment of activation.

Appears you're right... though this wasn't the impression I got initially reading it, took a second closer reading to understand. The reason it's a bit odd is because it switches back and forth between it being a reflex that the Nullifier can't control/stop with a small range, versus being able to willingly expend extra ISP or make pre-emptive strikes to protect others.

Even in the case of willing non-reflex attacks it still has that 'while being cast' caveat.

Mulling this over though... how do we deal with spells like Fire Globe or Annihilation? They aren't instant spells like Fireball or Call Lightning which would be negatable. They summon something into existence which can later be thrown...

At that point the spell is already successfully cast... does that mean the Nullifier is at the mercy of these delayed spells? Similarly for things like Lightblade or Psi-Sword.

Some of the example psionics it mentions are Object Read, Ectoplasmic Disguise and Telemechanics. Using Disguise as an example... presumably this means that if you activate Ectoplasmic Disguise within 10 foot of a Nullifier, he will react to it, but otherwise, if you successfully start it outside of their reflex radius, they can't do anything about it.

Being that the thread uses the example of the magic spell version of Astral Projection, this opens up Nega-Psychics for discussion...

Reading their 'Disrupt Magic' ability I can't find similar wording which restricts it to only negating magic during casting. Unlike Nullifiers, Nega-Psychics do not have an automatic reflex and must willingly expend the PPE, as far as I can tell. This is a bit of a defensive disadvantage, since it would require being aware of magic.

Since there's no wording which specifies that Nega-Psychics can only negate a spell while being cast, I take this to mean they can also negate (unlike Nullifiers) magic which has already successfully been cast. I think this is good, it gives them a niche. It lets them compensate for their lack of auto-defense by having more varied usage, and balances out the whole "I can do everything you can and more" annoying aspect of Nullifiers.

So while a Nega-Psychic could unsummon your Lightblade or your Shadow Beast when you ambush him in the woods, a Nullifier could not unless you tried summoning them in his presence.

"That can disrupt a magic ritual or spell casting The expending of one PPE point as negative endergy will disrpt and dispel three ppe from the magic ritual or spell caster........will be enough to prevent the spell from being successfully cast"
I would say that there is good enough that Nega-Psychics also must act at the time of casting. If you want to stop something once its up, bring a dispell magic scroll.

[Grand Paladin]

My problem is that they are MUTE observers... Mute meaning that they cannot cast spells. So, really, it would be a moot argument.

The argument that a spellcaster cannot cast spells when transformed in astral form inhabiting the material plane doesn't really hold water. There is already a Precedent listed in Rifts Underseas and also the Rifts Book of Magic, Under Ocean Magic, that states that when a spellcaster is unable to speak they can still cast magic spells through sheer concentration only. The character is reduced to casting only one spell per melee round and accounts as three melee attacks.

[Goliath Strongarm]

My problem is that they are MUTE observers... Mute meaning that they cannot cast spells. So, really, it would be a moot argument.

The argument that a spellcaster cannot cast spells when transformed in astral form inhabiting the material plane doesn't really hold water. There is already a Precedent listed in Rifts Underseas and also the Rifts Book of Magic, Under Ocean Magic, that states that when a spellcaster is unable to speak they can still cast magic spells through sheer concentration only. The character is reduced to casting only one spell per melee round and accounts as three melee attacks.

Corrected on that.. seeing as I normally don't play RIFTs, I had to go look at Underwater, because I was under the impression that those lines actually applied to Ocean Magic... I stand corrected on that. I also see the bit about "no matter what the environment may be".

So, I guess the correct answer really is: it depends on what setting you're playing.

Because, as a PF gamer, I can rightly tell my players that that NO, they are NOT casting spells underwater without a way to breathe and speak.

[Nekira Sudacne]

nullifiers have no ability to effect magic or psionics already active, they can only effect them if they're in their nullification range at the moment of activation.

Appears you're right... though this wasn't the impression I got initially reading it, took a second closer reading to understand. The reason it's a bit odd is because it switches back and forth between it being a reflex that the Nullifier can't control/stop with a small range, versus being able to willingly expend extra ISP or make pre-emptive strikes to protect others.

Even in the case of willing non-reflex attacks it still has that 'while being cast' caveat.

Mulling this over though... how do we deal with spells like Fire Globe or Annihilation? They aren't instant spells like Fireball or Call Lightning which would be negatable. They summon something into existence which can later be thrown...

Both of those are great things to use aginst them for that reason. you can cast them out of range and then throw them in.

At that point the spell is already successfully cast... does that mean the Nullifier is at the mercy of these delayed spells? Similarly for things like Lightblade or Psi-Sword.[/quote]

Likewise. As long as you make them out of range, it works fine. Note sinse a cyber knights psi-sword dosn't use ISP, anti-ISP can't effect it. likewise an auto mind block can't be negated for the same reason.

So while a Nega-Psychic could unsummon your Lightblade or your Shadow Beast when you ambush him in the woods, a Nullifier could not unless you tried summoning them in his presence.

I'm not sure that you can un-summon a shadow beast with something like a nega-psychic or an anti-magic cloud. the spell that summons them isn't constantly active. you summon them, then they're here. the spell also has an effect that bansihes them back after the duration expires, but it has a 15% chance of failure. so all attempting to negate the spell after the beast is already summoned will do is free it from the mages control and ensure it can remain as long as it chooses to.

[Zamion138]

My problem is that they are MUTE observers... Mute meaning that they cannot cast spells. So, really, it would be a moot argument.

The argument that a spellcaster cannot cast spells when transformed in astral form inhabiting the material plane doesn't really hold water. There is already a Precedent listed in Rifts Underseas and also the Rifts Book of Magic, Under Ocean Magic, that states that when a spellcaster is unable to speak they can still cast magic spells through sheer concentration only. The character is reduced to casting only one spell per melee round and accounts as three melee attacks.

Corrected on that.. seeing as I normally don't play RIFTs, I had to go look at Underwater, because I was under the impression that those lines actually applied to Ocean Magic... I stand corrected on that. I also see the bit about "no matter what the environment may be".

So, I guess the correct answer really is: it depends on what setting you're playing.

Because, as a PF gamer, I can rightly tell my players that that NO, they are NOT casting spells underwater without a way to breathe and speak.

But your not mute on the astral plane, your mute to the phyiscal plane, the way its worded is confusing but if you and I were on the astral plane togeather we could talk to each other, if you were astral and i was on the physical plane we could not.

Also though still not pf there are whole classes of magic weilders that focus on the astral in nightbane.

[Goliath Strongarm]

My problem is that they are MUTE observers... Mute meaning that they cannot cast spells. So, really, it would be a moot argument.

The argument that a spellcaster cannot cast spells when transformed in astral form inhabiting the material plane doesn't really hold water. There is already a Precedent listed in Rifts Underseas and also the Rifts Book of Magic, Under Ocean Magic, that states that when a spellcaster is unable to speak they can still cast magic spells through sheer concentration only. The character is reduced to casting only one spell per melee round and accounts as three melee attacks.

Corrected on that.. seeing as I normally don't play RIFTs, I had to go look at Underwater, because I was under the impression that those lines actually applied to Ocean Magic... I stand corrected on that. I also see the bit about "no matter what the environment may be".

So, I guess the correct answer really is: it depends on what setting you're playing.

Because, as a PF gamer, I can rightly tell my players that that NO, they are NOT casting spells underwater without a way to breathe and speak.

But your not mute on the astral plane, your mute to the phyiscal plane, the way its worded is confusing but if you and I were on the astral plane togeather we could talk to each other, if you were astral and i was on the physical plane we could not.

Also though still not pf there are whole classes of magic weilders that focus on the astral in nightbane.

Re-reading Astral Projection... it's all in how you read it. Yes, I know, if you pull out nightbane, there's a whole lot more that goes into it. But, the power, as written, simply says that "the astral self is a mute, ghostly observer"... it doesn't specify if that's ONLY while on the same plane, or if it's also during astral travel. I would agree that it would only apply to the physical plane, except that it's pretty poorly written, and a lot of bleeding of astral into physical..

So, depends on how you read it. But, I can definately not DISagree with... but I can't say I 100% agree... at least, until I bust out the nightbane stuff, which I don't want to go do.. I'm too lazy, and limited on space.

[Zamion138]

My problem is that they are MUTE observers... Mute meaning that they cannot cast spells. So, really, it would be a moot argument.

The argument that a spellcaster cannot cast spells when transformed in astral form inhabiting the material plane doesn't really hold water. There is already a Precedent listed in Rifts Underseas and also the Rifts Book of Magic, Under Ocean Magic, that states that when a spellcaster is unable to speak they can still cast magic spells through sheer concentration only. The character is reduced to casting only one spell per melee round and accounts as three melee attacks.

Corrected on that.. seeing as I normally don't play RIFTs, I had to go look at Underwater, because I was under the impression that those lines actually applied to Ocean Magic... I stand corrected on that. I also see the bit about "no matter what the environment may be".

So, I guess the correct answer really is: it depends on what setting you're playing.

Because, as a PF gamer, I can rightly tell my players that that NO, they are NOT casting spells underwater without a way to breathe and speak.

But your not mute on the astral plane, your mute to the phyiscal plane, the way its worded is confusing but if you and I were on the astral plane togeather we could talk to each other, if you were astral and i was on the physical plane we could not.

Also though still not pf there are whole classes of magic weilders that focus on the astral in nightbane.

Re-reading Astral Projection... it's all in how you read it. Yes, I know, if you pull out nightbane, there's a whole lot more that goes into it. But, the power, as written, simply says that "the astral self is a mute, ghostly observer"... it doesn't specify if that's ONLY while on the same plane, or if it's also during astral travel. I would agree that it would only apply to the physical plane, except that it's pretty poorly written, and a lot of bleeding of astral into physical..

So, depends on how you read it. But, I can definately not DISagree with... but I can't say I 100% agree... at least, until I bust out the nightbane stuff, which I don't want to go do.. I'm too lazy, and limited on space.

Astral gets much much needed explanation in nightbane for sure, I just personaly would like to think that two astral travlers could talk in the astral plane.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Astral gets much much needed explanation in nightbane for sure, I just personaly would like to think that two astral travlers could talk in the astral plane.

I can kind of see it, but there is a lot of stress on psionics, with very little mention of magic... I mean, you don't have a body, so no lungs to push air past vocal chords.. (of course, you don't have vocal chords, for that matter...)... I know, I know.. physics vs magic and psionics need not apply... just saying..

[Zamion138]

Astral gets much much needed explanation in nightbane for sure, I just personaly would like to think that two astral travlers could talk in the astral plane.

I can kind of see it, but there is a lot of stress on psionics, with very little mention of magic... I mean, you don't have a body, so no lungs to push air past vocal chords.. (of course, you don't have vocal chords, for that matter...)... I know, I know.. physics vs magic and psionics need not apply... just saying..

I get what your saying in how its worded dont get me wrong, and truthfully conversation in astral has litterly never came up in a game ive gm'ed or played in so its never been an issue.

[Zamion138]

by the way the banshee demon, is on the astral plane permently and can only attack people on the pyshical plane via empathic transmission, they can be heard whailing in astral and the real world so they might be seen as a special case I suppose but something makes sound on the astral.

[Tor]

My problem is that they are MUTE observers... Mute meaning that they cannot cast spells. So, really, it would be a moot argument.

Not all magic requires oration to do. Chi Magic for example does not require verbalization. Rifts Underseas also has rules where you can essentially silent-cast but it takes twice as long to do.

"That can disrupt a magic ritual or spell casting The expending of one PPE point as negative endergy will disrpt and dispel three ppe from the magic ritual or spell caster........will be enough to prevent the spell from being successfully cast" I would say that there is good enough that Nega-Psychics also must act at the time of casting. If you want to stop something once its up, bring a dispell magic scroll.

I think you're right... I was grasping a bit because there isn't as explicit a denial of after-cast negation like there is with Nullifiers, but yeah the wording doesn't appear to include completely cast things.

Of coursed both classes could do with some clarification on how to work this during combat. Nullifiers not so much due to it being involuntary, but expending extra ISP must be voluntary, as must negating spells targetted at friends outside the automatic radius but within the extended radius.

Nega-psychics moreso because they have no auto-negation and no listed initiative bonuses like the Nullifier has, I'm not sure how to work whether or not they detect and work to counteract a spell being cast in time.

The character is reduced to casting only one spell per melee round and accounts as three melee attacks.

This was pre-RUE though right? Would this still... "hold water" with the sped up casting system?

Originally this was contrast to being able to cast 2 spells per melee, and with a single spell per melee costing only 2 melee attacks. So it was actually a 50% increase or a '1 extra action' increase.

The simplest way to work into RUE's 1-5=1 6-10=2 11-15=3 system might just be to add a melee attack or double the melee attacks it takes to cast.

the power, as written, simply says that "the astral self is a mute, ghostly observer"... it doesn't specify if that's ONLY while on the same plane, or if it's also during astral travel.

What system are we talking about here? I'm wondering if there might be in-system exceptions to that. We know there are in Nightbane, and we also know there are in Rifts since Psyscape also exists in the astral plane yet people can presumably talk there.

[Goliath Strongarm]

What system are we talking about here? I'm wondering if there might be in-system exceptions to that. We know there are in Nightbane, and we also know there are in Rifts since Psyscape also exists in the astral plane yet people can presumably talk there.

This is the reason I'm a Linist... I try to stick with each individual system over the "megaverse". There are places where things aren't the same from setting to setting.

Nightbane, by far, probably has the most extensive amount on the Astral Plane, as well as Astral Travel. The next up would be Psyscape...

So, if you want a RIFTs answer, I would suggest checking Psyscape.. if you want a NB answer, check that settings books.. otherwise.. well, look at the discussion here...

[Riftmaker]

What system are we talking about here? I'm wondering if there might be in-system exceptions to that. We know there are in Nightbane, and we also know there are in Rifts since Psyscape also exists in the astral plane yet people can presumably talk there.

This is the reason I'm a Linist... I try to stick with each individual system over the "megaverse". There are places where things aren't the same from setting to setting.

Nightbane, by far, probably has the most extensive amount on the Astral Plane, as well as Astral Travel. The next up would be Psyscape...

So, if you want a RIFTs answer, I would suggest checking Psyscape.. if you want a NB answer, check that settings books.. otherwise.. well, look at the discussion here...

Hot damn Goliath Strongarm haven't seen you in a dragons age!

[Goliath Strongarm]

Been back for a couple weeks... Long enough to get reminded why I left, and to get 2 warnings.

I'm around usually at night, and hit the chat for a bit most nights.

[Riftmaker]

Been back for a couple weeks... Long enough to get reminded why I left, and to get 2 warnings.

I'm around usually at night, and hit the chat for a bit most nights.

lol cool i'll stop by if i get the time

[Tor]

This is the reason I'm a Linist... I try to stick with each individual system over the "megaverse". There are places where things aren't the same from setting to setting. want a RIFTs answer, I would suggest checking Psyscape.. if you want a NB answer

Linism doesn't work, there are too many inter-system links to ignore.

Loki-G for example, is a character in both Nightbane (Nightlands) and Rifts (Pantheons).

[eliakon]

This is the reason I'm a Linist... I try to stick with each individual system over the "megaverse". There are places where things aren't the same from setting to setting. want a RIFTs answer, I would suggest checking Psyscape.. if you want a NB answer

Linism doesn't work, there are too many inter-system links to ignore.

Loki-G for example, is a character in both Nightbane (Nightlands) and Rifts (Pantheons).

*shrugs* Thats your opinion, and as a Megaversalist your entitled to it. A linest could easily say that there are two loki-g entities, and two nightlord entities under the premise that there are infinite dimensions, and thus not worry about reconcialing conflicts between the lines.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It is the recent batch of newbs that has turned me from being a liberal into the opinion that each setting has it's own canon. Just for ease of separating the stupid stuff from one setting, say...Rifts, from not a messed up setting, say PF2.

Even if they each have 1% stupid stuff, Rifts has a greater cumulative SS just because of the box-load of books that have been written for it.

[Tor]

Drew not sure what you mean about this stupid stuff policy. We know all settings have rifts and link to one another, eh? There's no denying that, but GMs can riftblock whatever they want to.

*shrugs* Thats your opinion, and as a Megaversalist your entitled to it. A linest could easily say that there are two loki-g entities, and two nightlord entities under the premise that there are infinite dimensions, and thus not worry about reconcialing conflicts between the lines.

The stance is not unique to lineists... er... maybe we could say settingists ? I dunno... but basically the idea of there being multiple versions of entities sharing the same name is perfectly acceptable. We have 2 Hels, 2 Necrophims, 2 Modei, 2 Mictlas, 2 Mephistos...

The difference in my stance is mostly, I'll assume there to be 2 different entities when there are irreconcilable differences (such as different statistics and abilities given for Demon Lords in CB1 and D&G) but I'll assume that if the same name is used and there is nothing to imply or necessitate another entity, that it is the same entity.

In the case of Loki-G... while it's plausible that there are other Loki imposters... the idea that another of them would be a Goqua taking on a silly alias like "Loki-G" just doesn't seem all too likely.

Before I assume anything like that, I'd be declaring that the Egyptians in Africa and D&G were different, and 2 Thoths mean there were actually 2 Xys... because that has more support based on slight differences in Thoth's OCCs and the presence or lack of deific powers.

[SittingBull]

If someone is astral projecting onto the real world, not the astral plane and they are a spell caster can they caste spells?

Can the astral form see in the dark?

yes. It is only through magic and psi that the astral traveler can interact with the physical world.

And the 2nd is a good question, don't have an answer off hand.

Here's my problem. On on hand I want an astral projecting character to be able to walk through a sealed door and see whats on the other side. If i let them cast spells like say globe of daylight whats to keep them from casting call lightning or flame bolt and being an invisible intangible assassin?

Basically that is what my character did as a Temporal Warrior with the Astral Projection spell during an encounter with a Coalition tank crew.

2 Things to remember. #1 if your opponent can see invisible then he can direct attacks at you. Mind you only magic or psionics (for the most part) will affect the character. #2 if your opponent can see you, then they can see your astral cord. That cord doesn't have a lot of damage capacity and losing it is just a seriously bad risk.

[Grand Paladin]

2 Things to remember. #1 if your opponent can see invisible then he can direct attacks at you. Mind you only magic or psionics (for the most part) will affect the character. #2 if your opponent can see you, then they can see your astral cord. That cord doesn't have a lot of damage capacity and losing it is just a seriously bad risk.

You are absolutely right SittingBull. That was a part of my characters' tactical considerations during the encounter. Since the opponents were Coalition military, the chances were next to zero that they could use any mystic defense. The real concern was any psychic defenders within. Now, realistically the only threat to an astral traveller are Mind Melters, Nega-Psychics, and Psi-Nullifiers. That again was a calculated risk.

[SittingBull]

Dont forget psi-nullifiers also.

[Grand Paladin]

Dont forget psi-nullifiers also.

Hehe... I didn't.

[SittingBull]

My bad. Let me say I misread that word before someone comes along and makes a point to correct me.