South American Apoks and other fun

[Tor]

Not sure what you mean about 'small sample set'. We have no guidelines on how many deities exist in the Megaverse. For all we know, the sum of the ones in published books may actually be the majority of existing deities.

It's implied there are deities besides those who have been statted out (several are mentioned in both god-books who aren't statted) but I don't think we should assume they possess the unique powers that some of the gods who are statted have. Especially as something as massive as dimension-building.

Although if you have Rifter's Spatial Mages in a game, it shouldn't be that rare at all I guess.

Considering many deific realms are implied to be in the astral plane (don't they imply this of Dyval somewhere? forget) there'd be enough Lords/Mages/Milleks/Astral Avatars to build loads of dimensions.

[SAMASzero]

Why is it unlikely that Wormwood was created from scratch? There are communion spells which can create permanent additions to the planet through permanent PPE expenditure. There's no reason why the whole planet couldn't have just been created from raw PPE, once you had a small seed to add to over time.

Since this is all conjecture in the first place, here's my line of thinking:

Wromwood's overall features, IMO, indicate something made to provide for Human(oid) life. Specialized but imperfect, that to me smacks of Mortal Engineering rather than Divine Design.

Now while it is quite possible that Wormwood was just placed whole (and/or immature) in a suitable orbit around it's star, that is also kinda resource-intensive and inefficient. Something like Wormwood seems more like it would be used to terraform otherwise-uninhabitable worlds in desirable orbits. You drop/create it on the planet, it eats everything and modifies/processes it into a preferred set of parameters, and feeds off the planet's minerals and biomass to grow until it covers it. That's why you have to go deep to access Ley Lines in Wormwood: The organism is literally wrapped around the shell of the original planet in a living carpet at least a mile or so thick.

There's no established basis that Wormwood feeds off soil and rock. If it did, you'd think it would have caused problems for the kingdoms which have imported these things and laid them on top of Wormwood.

Could you eat an apple placed on your back? Maybe if you reached over to pick it up and bring it to your mouth, sure. But would you even bother if it were just a sliver of fruit with a total area of half a millimeter?

Rather than Geothermal energy, if it fed off anything I'd say it would be ley lines. Wormwood has ley line energy in deep caves, so possibly it grows overtop of ley lines, blocking them from the surface creates and feeding on them exclusively.

I was thinking both, actually. The minerals and biomass around the seed planet fed it's growth and provided the building blocks for the Fiber caves, edible worms and various symbiotes, but now the organism has entered a more or less permanent state of torpor where it feeds off the Ley Lines.

[Tor]

smacks of Mortal Engineering rather than Divine Design

Not following you here, deities can design stuff for their mortal followers.

Now while it is quite possible that Wormwood was just placed whole (and/or immature) in a suitable orbit around it's star, that is also kinda resource-intensive and inefficient.

Not necessarily, that only applies if creating matter is harder than altering matter.

In some cases, it may be easier for magic to do former than latter.

Something like Wormwood seems more like it would be used to terraform otherwise-uninhabitable worlds in desirable orbits. You drop/create it on the planet, it eats everything and modifies/processes it into a preferred set of parameters, and feeds off the planet's minerals and biomass to grow until it covers it.

I guess, but if this is the case, we shouldn't expect the imported soil from other planets to last long on Wormwood. Why isn't it being swallowed up?

That's why you have to go deep to access Ley Lines in Wormwood: The organism is literally wrapped around the shell of the original planet in a living carpet at least a mile or so thick.

That could be, but I thought that ley lines are supposed to actually shift with the terrain. Isn't that why ley lines go overtop of forests rather than through them? The elevation of trees elevates the ley line, I thought?

Could you eat an apple placed on your back? Maybe if you reached over to pick it up and bring it to your mouth, sure. But would you even bother if it were just a sliver of fruit with a total area of half a millimeter?

I'm having too much trouble relating this analogy to a planet, sorry.

[eliakon]

Could you eat an apple placed on your back? Maybe if you reached over to pick it up and bring it to your mouth, sure. But would you even bother if it were just a sliver of fruit with a total area of half a millimeter?

I'm having too much trouble relating this analogy to a planet, sorry.

Its in referance to the sniped comment about if wormwood eats soil and rock, that it would be a danger to the imported soil areas.

Confusion can be avoided when you take a look at a post in its entirety, and not just line by line.

[flatline]

Could you eat an apple placed on your back? Maybe if you reached over to pick it up and bring it to your mouth, sure. But would you even bother if it were just a sliver of fruit with a total area of half a millimeter?

I'm having too much trouble relating this analogy to a planet, sorry.

Its in referance to the sniped comment about if wormwood eats soil and rock, that it would be a danger to the imported soil areas.[/quote]

The implication is that Wormwood has specialized organs, perhaps even organs for devouring worlds. I'm not aware of anything in the book that supports this idea, but it might be a cool hypothesis to explore.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

The implication is that Wormwood has specialized organs, perhaps even organs for devouring worlds. I'm not aware of anything in the book that supports this idea, but it might be a cool hypothesis to explore.

--flatline

The planet does seem to have the means of perfect recycling but since it somehow responds to the needs of the living souls upon it (such as how it will slowly create homes and expand on them as people live in an area) it likely isn't going to recycle rock and soil brought in to produce non-native things since that would be contrary to its 'serve those living upon it' nature as it would be destroying things they want.

[glitterboy2098]

The implication is that Wormwood has specialized organs, perhaps even organs for devouring worlds. I'm not aware of anything in the book that supports this idea, but it might be a cool hypothesis to explore.

--flatline

The planet does seem to have the means of perfect recycling but since it somehow responds to the needs of the living souls upon it (such as how it will slowly create homes and expand on them as people live in an area) it likely isn't going to recycle rock and soil brought in to produce non-native things since that would be contrary to its 'serve those living upon it' nature as it would be destroying things they want.

think about it this way.

a plant has roots sunk into the earth. it breaks down soil and water to make nutrients, which it funnels to its extremities, where it grows. producing things like leaves, bark, seeds, etc.

in this concept, think about 'wormwood' as a giant organism, a layer of living material with roots sunk into a planet. those roots break down the planet for raw materials, and absorb magic energy, and uses that energy and material to sustain its own life, and to create the food, resin, symbiotes, and other things the inhabitants use on the surface.

even perfect recycling (an impossible thing, nothing is 100%) wouldn't allow wormwood the setting to exist. the human population exists in a state of development which causes population growth. more people are born and live, eating food provided by the planet, using resin material, etc; than are providing raw materials back to the planet, be it by biological byproduct or by their death and internment.
so there has to be a source of raw materials other than the people on the surface.

[Tor]

Confusion can be avoided when you take a look at a post in its entirety, and not just line by line.

Please give it a rest eli. My reply style doesn't mean I ignore the post or am unable to connect parts of it. There's no need to snipe at me in my communications to others.

I'm well aware of what the metaphor was in reference to, just not the specific details of it, like Wormwood having a 'back' (I guess the bottom part surrounding the planet is the 'front'?) and the size=sliver thing.

There is also mention of a Wormwood "legend" that tells of a civilization inside of Wormwood. Can't remember the page. If I find it I'll post it here.

I seem to remember something like that too, although I really enjoyed that free netbook for Wormwood (was it Trustrum who did that?) and am not sure if I'm mixing up some of the fresh material from there. Love how he made that angel/bird race based on a subtle detail in one of the pics.

[Nightmask]

The implication is that Wormwood has specialized organs, perhaps even organs for devouring worlds. I'm not aware of anything in the book that supports this idea, but it might be a cool hypothesis to explore.

--flatline

The planet does seem to have the means of perfect recycling but since it somehow responds to the needs of the living souls upon it (such as how it will slowly create homes and expand on them as people live in an area) it likely isn't going to recycle rock and soil brought in to produce non-native things since that would be contrary to its 'serve those living upon it' nature as it would be destroying things they want.

think about it this way.

a plant has roots sunk into the earth. it breaks down soil and water to make nutrients, which it funnels to its extremities, where it grows. producing things like leaves, bark, seeds, etc.

in this concept, think about 'wormwood' as a giant organism, a layer of living material with roots sunk into a planet. those roots break down the planet for raw materials, and absorb magic energy, and uses that energy and material to sustain its own life, and to create the food, resin, symbiotes, and other things the inhabitants use on the surface.

even perfect recycling (an impossible thing, nothing is 100%) wouldn't allow wormwood the setting to exist. the human population exists in a state of development which causes population growth. more people are born and live, eating food provided by the planet, using resin material, etc; than are providing raw materials back to the planet, be it by biological byproduct or by their death and internment.
so there has to be a source of raw materials other than the people on the surface.

Except we've no reason to believe that Wormwood has some kind of 'dead' core that it's feeding off of, we only know that it's a construct and is the planet so must assume that it's all Wormwood from its gravitational center point on out. In a multiverse with magical things all over the place and different physics in various locations as well we've no reason to think Wormwood doesn't have perfect recycling, even if it didn't it's a planet-sized organism and humanity on Earth isn't even noticing after all of recorded history any problems from the miniscule losses that result due to our inefficient use of things and we've a population so far in excess of what we've reason to believe Wormwood has that they'd need a looooooong time before less than 100% efficiency actually started showing as a problem.

[flatline]

Except we've no reason to believe that Wormwood has some kind of 'dead' core that it's feeding off of, we only know that it's a construct and is the planet so must assume that it's all Wormwood from its gravitational center point on out.

Since the interior and origins of Wormwood are undefined, we are free to assume anything we like with no fear that we're contradicting something in the book. We could assume that it's all Wormwood through and through rather than a crunchy Wormwood shell with a soft, gooey terrestrial (or whatever) center, but we aren't required to. We aren't required to assume anything at all unless it somehow becomes pertinent to our campaign.

If I were planning a campaign into the "heart" of Wormwood, I think I would feel compelled to make Wormwood's interior somehow different from the exterior. Obviously there would need to be hints here and there about Wormwood's origin, but also something special. Whether it's a "seed" planet that Wormwood has grown around or some set of special organs (Wormwood's brain or power source?), I don't know. I'd have to think about it.

--flatline

[Tor]

must assume that it's all Wormwood from its gravitational center point on out.

I dunno, I always felt the mysterious core was a massive plot device for GMs.

I'm kinda surprised nobody's found out though. The 'create tunnel' communion power can be made permanent without permanently losing PPE, so you'd think someone would've tunneled a few miles down by now.

I actually have no idea why the majority of buildings would be build on the surface anyway. It seems a lot cheaper to me to just create tunnels in the existing planet (then you basically get walls and ceiling in one fell swoop) rather than construct weird wall-based houses on top of the crust in plain view.

[Nightmask]

must assume that it's all Wormwood from its gravitational center point on out.

I dunno, I always felt the mysterious core was a massive plot device for GMs.

I'm kinda surprised nobody's found out though. The 'create tunnel' communion power can be made permanent without permanently losing PPE, so you'd think someone would've tunneled a few miles down by now.

I actually have no idea why the majority of buildings would be build on the surface anyway. It seems a lot cheaper to me to just create tunnels in the existing planet (then you basically get walls and ceiling in one fell swoop) rather than construct weird wall-based houses on top of the crust in plain view.

They haven't just tunneled down a few miles for the same reason we have trouble doing it, because heat and pressure become worse the farther down you go and no reason to think that Wormwood behaves any differently.

[Tor]

That would be true if they were actually digging, but the 'create tunnel' spell doesn't mention anything like shorter durations or higher PPE costs for making deeper tunnels.

THE PLANET PROVIDES.

The resin must flow...

[eliakon]

Isn't there a mention in the book someplace about tunnels can only go a certain depth and no farther? Like on page 152 where it talks about "its solidWwormwond"

[Tor]

No, you are referring to the description of the Unholy's lair, the 'solid wormwood' means that there is nothing at the end of his tunnel. You could use 'create tunnel' to extend the tunnel, but it wouldn't get you anywhere, because the tunnel isn't pointing toward anything. The entrance to his lair is earlier on.

The 'Create Opening' power that it declares is useless is basically designed for removing small amounts of Wormwood. I would say, based on a lack of data, that this refers to small walls. The 'create wall' power for example makes things half a foot thick. Unless otherwise indicated, I would say that is the limit of thickness that 'create an opening' could open.

One might ask why someone would ever use 'create opening' instead of 'create tunnel' though. It barely even seems worth it. Create Tunnel has better range, longer duration, same casting time. The only benefit to using Create Opening when you have Create Tunnel is basically lower PPE costs.

Opening allows a peephole (something Tunnel isn't specific enough for) for low cost, as well as small crawling openings. A human-sized (standing up) opening merely costs 6 compared to a tunnel which would cost 15. Opening also allows giant-sized doors, which Tunnel does not (so if the Unholy wanted to travel via Create Tunnel, he would have to crawl at a human's walking level).

[Tor]

But the impression that Create Opening gives is that it literally doesn't matter how thick the surface is, it will still create an opening so long as there is something to open into.

That's not the impression I get. I get the impression it opens up a wall. The only way to create walls out of Wormwood is the Create Wall spell, so all walls are 6 inches thick.

People can make it easier to slow people down by layering multiple walls. 2 foot thick walls would actually be 4 walls layered together, requiring 4 create openings to get through.

so you can't use it to tunnel, but you could come up to a castle wall like structure and open a passage to walk right on through. I would expect a practical limit of some kind, say, you can't create an opening through a hill of Wormwood material...they have those, right?

Creating openings through wormwood material is what 'Create Opening' does.

They have mountains, so they must. For that sort of thing you want a tunnel instead.

The mountains in Wormwood are made of resin. WWcommunion Spells can't get you through things like resin or stone.

does it "remove" the material, or simply shunt it aside?

Shunt it aside, since it grows back after the spell elapses.

[Voodoolaw]

FYI: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/questions/occ.html

18. If you were an Apok from wormwood would the mask survive off of wormwood? Could you be an Apok on earth or anywhere else in Megaverse with the mask?
Answer: Yes to both questions. The Apoks mask is the only wormwood symbiote that can survive away from Wormwood because it is linked to the Apok, not the planet.

I would personally take this to mean that any indestructible property the mask has is also independent of Wormwood. I havent read the sourcebook with the Ragnarok (was that it?) Apok in it, but his story and requirements may contradict the above. I remember something about him sacrificing PPE to keep his mask alive or something. But it has been a few years.

Also, in another section:

10. In Wormwood since everyone is a Mega-damage being does that mean physical attacks cause no damage, ie. a punch or normal sword. This seems to imply that people of wormwood can beat each other up till the cows come home and only suffer fatigue from failing away at each other
Answer: Wormwoodians are mega-damage beings in reference to SDC objects from other dimensions. Swords and fists will inflict standard damage within their own dimension.

And unofficial goodies here: http://www.trustrum.com/Palladium/Wormwood/pww-faq.html

I totally agree with the SDC Wormwood school of thought, and personally think it might even be a better idea to take it one step further and think of it as a Palladium Fantasy Dimension Book.

As to the FAQs, I get the distinct impression that the answers are just what sounded good at the time, at least for some. I don't have any specifics to point out, but having read it in the past, some answers seemed to be contradicted in later books. But that might be said of official printed material as well, I guess.

[SolCannibal]

Funny that, it seems to be at least the third reference to a Wormwood-Rifts Earth connection i can remember from the books, this, the portal in the Tree of Darkness and the one in Lalibella in Rifts Africa - does anyone remember any others?

[Vrykolas2k]

It is one reason I don't care for wormwood. Almost nothing from it can be used elsewhere other than apok masks. There pretty much is no reason from another setting to go to wormwood and no reason to try to bring something from wormwood out of the setting.

I like the concept behind it but it just works terribly as anything other than a stand alone setting.

Well, resin weapons, TW weapons, angel hair rope and some other items can be transported from Wormwood.

[Daniel Stoker]

Yeah, I reworked that a while back as it just limited Wormwood to much for my taste.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

FYI: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/questions/occ.html

18. If you were an Apok from wormwood would the mask survive off of wormwood? Could you be an Apok on earth or anywhere else in Megaverse with the mask?
Answer: Yes to both questions. The Apoks mask is the only wormwood symbiote that can survive away from Wormwood because it is linked to the Apok, not the planet.

I would personally take this to mean that any indestructible property the mask has is also independent of Wormwood. I havent read the sourcebook with the Ragnarok (was that it?) Apok in it, but his story and requirements may contradict the above. I remember something about him sacrificing PPE to keep his mask alive or something. But it has been a few years.

Also, in another section:

10. In Wormwood since everyone is a Mega-damage being does that mean physical attacks cause no damage, ie. a punch or normal sword. This seems to imply that people of wormwood can beat each other up till the cows come home and only suffer fatigue from failing away at each other
Answer: Wormwoodians are mega-damage beings in reference to SDC objects from other dimensions. Swords and fists will inflict standard damage within their own dimension.

And unofficial goodies here: http://www.trustrum.com/Palladium/Wormwood/pww-faq.html

I totally agree with the SDC Wormwood school of thought, and personally think it might even be a better idea to take it one step further and think of it as a Palladium Fantasy Dimension Book.

As to the FAQs, I get the distinct impression that the answers are just what sounded good at the time, at least for some. I don't have any specifics to point out, but having read it in the past, some answers seemed to be contradicted in later books. But that might be said of official printed material as well, I guess.

These are interesting rules changes. I view them as supplental (though acceptable) changes to the rules present in Wormwood since nothing like these 2 things was ever implied in the main book.

1 thing I wonder about the mask though. If it is bonded to the Apok, and not to Wormwood, does that mean the mask would die if it was sent to a different planet than the Apok, or to a different dimension?

Things that rely on Wormwood die if they leave the planet's atmosphere or dimension so there should be a similar (if not smaller) range limit with the Apok and his mask.

I think it should start dying the minute he takes it off, personally.

If the Apok can keep his mask alive, he should only be able to do so while it is in contact with his flesh. So if he doesn't touch it every few hours (maybe he doesn't have to put it on, but at least touch it) then it should begin to die.

Furthermore since things lose their abilities when disconnected with Wormwood, I'd say if an Apok ever loses touch with his Mask, he would have to touch it continually for 24 hours before it's powers activated again. Much like someone with Wormwood Communion powers returning to Wormwood having to wait on the planet a day before they return.

An Apok would also only get his mask's powers. His other OCC powers that he gets mask or not would not work off Wormwood.

[Tor]

Wormwood mentions confessers (obviously indicating Apoks) along with priests losing their powers off-planet though, so strength of conviction doesn't exactly help. As much as a lot of magic works on belief, a lot of it also requires receiving it from an outside source. We have seen this in Priests, Witches, Mystic Bestowed, Channelers, etc. The Wormwood OCCs clearly derive their magic in that manner, which is why they lose it off-planet.

Wormwood helps but its said some don't come out while the ones who do are Apoks, I see that as its the person who enters the pit as the source of the power. Otherwise all who enter would come out Apoks,

Perhaps it is Wormwood's intervention that prevents people from drowning as normal? People normally drown if they walk into a life vat.

my belief on the mask is not a wormwood symbiot is that near the end of the character description/stats is it says that they are impervious to symbiotes

Unfounded, it's a modified version of the ability that excepts mask/orb/saint. Priests have this ability without exceptions. It's similar to how Apoks have a modified version of Invisible to Magic Seeing that lasts forever. Apoks are special princesses.

A belief that the mask is not a Wormwood Symbiote is completely in contradiction to the book's "a living symbiotic organism created by the living planet".

I think the best solution here, if we are to incorporate the FAQ's "masks survive" errata, is to treat that as a new ability. So for someone who bought and played Wormwood prior to the FAQ's publication (or reading it) should play that the masks die, but the FAQ can be treated as a 'new ability' for the masks (much like Cyber-Knights' SoT powers) which Wormwood presumably imbued into the masks after recognizing a need for Apoks to engage in off-planet missions to recruit allies and secure resources for the good guys.

the last bit which says symbiotes, and the text reads never uses any symbiote except for the battle saint or orb

Sounds like they're simply overlooking the mask in that case because it's such an ingrained part of the character.

I see that as the mask is not the same kind of symbiote as all the others the planet creates, this is something the apok creates with assistance from wormwood, while the others are created directly from wormwood.

It is different, but you have it flipped. Wormwood creates it, the wearer shapes it. The Apok does not create it, it is not made from him. It's a part of wormwood. He molds the mask's appearance so it represents his inner demons.

As for the occ abilities, they should stay whether on wormwood or anywhere else. As its very similar to the sea inquisitor.

Sea Inquisitors aren't known to be linked to a planet from which they derive their powers, so it's not exactly similar. Their powers may be inherent, or from some unknown source (book left it open-ended) while Apoks have a clear source and clearly lose at least some of their powers while off-planet.

The main thing that is unclear is what powers they lose. Wormwood might just be describing the Communion Spells, or it might be describing other stuff too, not exactly clear. An Apok would definitely lose stuff likeImpervious to Magic Seeing or Hellfire (which would be mighty useful, and might otherwise be usable since they don't directly interact with Wormwood-stuff) but they might keep their SNPS or HF/Possession Imperviousness.

[eliakon]

Hrmmm, actually the text in the Adventure Sourcebook: Firetown & the Tolkeen Crisis, would seem to suggest that the mask WOULD die. As the Apok Fortune, on page 27 is mentioned to complain that the ritual to sustain their symbiotes and crystals turns him into a PPE vampire, he does have one crystal as well, but it would seem that if he could simply abandon the one crystal and not have to drain PPE that he would do so, thus logic would seem to suggest that he has to support something else....and the only other Wormwood item he possess is his mask.

[Tor]

I was not aware that there was a second Apok NPC in the Megaverse, thank you for bringing attention to this interesting tidbit. God the impression that outside of CJ books like SA/Mercs that Wormwood was largely ignored. A book clearly does not need to have new OCCs to expand on existing ones and how they function via NPC examples and storylines.

Seems to deviate slightly from Wormwood descriptions since it talks about the symbiotes 'gradually' losing their powers, but per Wormwood the power loss should be instantaneous and it should only be the destruction which is gradual.

I do like the idea of gradual power loss better than instant though, so we can assume that Firetown overrides Wormwood and that due to some recent dimensional fluctuation (or perhaps something unique to this Tolkeen battle which deposited Fortune on Rifts Earth) that in this case (or perhaps all cases) the power loss can be a gradual tapering instead of instant.

It's also interesting because by the wording, this ritual not only stops them from going inert or shriveling, but it can also bring dead symbiotes back to life. This means if an Apok's mask dies off-planet, this ritual can bring it back to life.

It'd be nice to have more stats on the ritual though, like what level it is, how long it takes to cast, PPE cost, etc. The 50/week is clearly only a maintenance thing and the big respawn ritual is clearly a bigger deal.