AP Rounds/Missiles

[Alrik Vas]

Has anything every been added to any book where weapons described as Armor Piercing have a use? Usually they're lower damage weapons with a smaller blast radius. While that doesn't inherently bother me, i'm curious to know if there were ever further rules on what value AP rounds/missiles have.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE missile section has superior crits for AP missiles.

[Alrik Vas]

Sweet. It's sitting on my desk at home, so i'll give it a flip when i'm off.

[glitterboy2098]

AP missiles, according to rue, do double damage on a 17 or higher.. and triple damage on a nat20.
i try to include a version of this mechanic for any 'armor piercing' weapon i write up, missile or not.
it wouldn't be too hard to assign it to existing weapons that might deserve it.

[Shark_Force]

RUE missile section has superior crust for AP missiles.

missile crust?

....

have you been running shadowrun with a throwing adept who has a preference for using stale bread as a deadly weapon lately or something?

(on a side note: in shadowrun, i wouldn't be surprised if a throwing adept could be built that throws bread crusts for more damage than the standard guided missile attack in the setting )

[Alrik Vas]

Now we see the violence inherent in the system.

[glitterboy2098]

RUE missile section has superior crust for AP missiles.

missile crust?

probably meant 'crit', but ran afoul of the dreaded 'autocomplete'....

[Snake Eyes]

AP missiles, according to rue, do double damage on a 17 or higher.. and triple damage on a nat20.
i try to include a version of this mechanic for any 'armor piercing' weapon i write up, missile or not.
it wouldn't be too hard to assign it to existing weapons that might deserve it.

Good point, i think i'll adopt this for my games

[jaymz]

And just to add to what GB said A/P does x2 damage on a 17+ bonuses included.

I apply it to already existing weapons, railguns being one of them, ramjet rounds being another

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE missile section has superior crust for AP missiles.

missile crust?

My phone has auto-correct.
Which mocks me at every turn.

[jaymz]

RUE missile section has superior crust for AP missiles.

missile crust?

My phone has auto-correct.
Which mocks me at every turn.

Tell the truth you almost let slip a new Bull hunter Arms warhead type didn't you....

[Killer Cyborg]

Has anything every been added to any book where weapons described as Armor Piercing have a use? Usually they're lower damage weapons with a smaller blast radius. While that doesn't inherently bother me, i'm curious to know if there were ever further rules on what value AP rounds/missiles have.

Okay, now that I'm using an actual computer....

You're looking at Armor Piercing wrong, at least when it comes to missile, and that's without the RUE rule on crits that you missed.

Look at the damages.

Mini-Missiles:
High Explosive: 5d6 MD
Frag: 5d6 MD
Armor Piercing 1d4x10
Plasma: 1d6x10

Armor piercing missiles aren't "lower damage," they're the second highest damage available.
The #1 in damage is plasma, but that's not because Armor Piercing is weak, but rather because Plasma is awesome.
Unfortunately, plasma is also weak or useless against one hell of a lot of demons, monsters, psychics, and mages out there, because there's a LOT of stuff that's resistant or impervious to heat, and that includes plasma.
An Armor Piercing missile, though, has precious little that it won't blow a chunk out of.

As for non-missiles...
RGMG, 112 describes conventional SDC rounds for firearms, and has a note that Armor Piercing rounds add 1d6 SDC to the weapon's damage.
So, again, not weaker than the standard.

RGMG, 171 goes over WI-20 Heavy Ramjet Rounds, the heavy rounds built for .50 caliber machine guns and stuff. They inflict 1d4 MD per shot.
RGMG, 157 describes the NG-11S "Sawed-Off". It's a double-barreled .60 caliber smoothbore weapon that can fire 12-gauge shotgun rounds of various types, OR it can fire Armor-Piercing Ramjet rounds that inflict 2d6 MD.
Which is roughly 3x as much damage as the normal ramjet rounds for a .50 caliber.
Now, maybe that .10 caliber difference explains some of the difference in damage, but not nearly all of it. At best, I'd say it might boost the damage up to 1d6 MD. Which means that the "Armor Piercing" part adds that other D6 MD, doubling the damage of the rounds.

Those are all the "Armor Piercing" things that come to mind, so if you had specific other things that you were asking about, feel free to let me know what they were, and I'll look them up and see if I can shed any light on those as well.

[jaymz]

I think mini missiles may the only missile type which the A/P outclasses everything but Plasma.....SRMs and MRMs it's on par with an HE type and is lagging in the LRMs. But yeah I never saw them as "inferior" as others may have.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think mini missiles may the only missile type which the A/P outclasses everything but Plasma.....SRMs and MRMs it's on par with an HE type and is lagging in the LRMs. But yeah I never saw them as "inferior" as others may have.

Let me take a look....
RUE 363
Short Range, AP, (medium) High Explosive and Plasma are equal. So AP is top-tier there.
Medium Range, it's tied with (heavy) High Explosive, but is beaten by Plasma and Multi-Warhead. So it's third-tier there, but there's no shame in that considering who beats it.
Long range, AP does the same damage as with medium range. I guess because after a certain point, Armor Piercing becomes kind of a moot point? Anyway, it's down to 8th tier there!
So yeah, AP isn't good for LRMs.
Kinda sucks, but kinda makes sense.

[Alrik Vas]

To be perfectly honest, I was remembering AP being below plasma with mini missiles and made the mistake of applying the 2nd tier notion to AP across the board, especially in regards to MD weapons.


Thanks for the info, KC.

[Killer Cyborg]

To be perfectly honest, I was remembering AP being below plasma with mini missiles and made the mistake of applying the 2nd tier notion to AP across the board, especially in regards to MD weapons.


Thanks for the info, KC.

It's what I'm here for!

[Faceless Dude]

I apply the AP/crit rules to armor piercing missiles (natch), welling armor piercing grenades, and the metamorphic setting of a Lemurian Stonecaster weapon. Basically anything that specifically states AP gets the bump

I'm starting a campaign on Saturday wherein also going to include rail guns as AP. we'll see how it goes

[Shark_Force]

So yeah, AP isn't good for LRMs.
Kinda sucks, but kinda makes sense.

i'd say it more than "kinda" makes sense, considering that LRMs are more like what we call ICBMs, really. you don't launch a missile 1,000 miles just to blow up a tank.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, ICBM's require a range of over 4,000 miles to qualify. after all ,the name is intercontinental
ballistic missile. they have to be able to cross oceans.
LRM's are more like cruise missiles or SRBM's (short range ballistic missiles)
basically missile artillery intended for tactical/theatre use. typically not nuclear armed any more, but rather packing a choice of chemical or biological warheads, high explosive, fuel air explosive, area effect sub-munition, bunker busting, or anti-vehicle top attack submunition warheads. also the larger SAM's, which usually use radar proximity fragmentation or continuous rod warheads.

and there are armor peircing warhead/kinetic impactor versions of such weapons. usually they are employed in anti-shipping or anti-bunker roles rather than anti-tank however. the chinese DF_21D for example has an estimated range of almost 1000 miles, is hypersonic (mach 5 plus), and is believed to be equipped with multiple maneuverable reentry vehicles equipped with anti-armor warheads. it's the first ballistic anti-ship missile that could be capable of killing a modern super-carrier. has quite a few naval planners concerned, since once the chinese have it fully deployed, odds are versions of it will be up for export, including to people we might end up fighting.

most LRM's in rifts though are more on par with the AGM-86 ALCM, the NATO stormshadow, or the indian Brahmos.. these tend to have high explosive, sub-munition, or bunker busting-AP warheads

personally i tend to base my equivalencies based on size, not performance. performance is constantly improcing in real life, so it is easier to look at the size and say "that can be replaced by a medium range missile' or "that can be replaced by minimisisles", even when performance wise they might have wildly different performance. for example, the AIM-9 Sidewinder is officially a 'short range missie' to the military, but it's 40 miles range means it isn't an SRM by rifts performance.. and size wise it is nearly as large as the AIM-120 AMRAAM, which is a medium range missile by real world parlance and and equal to a rifts MRM in performance..

[kaid]

AP missiles, according to rue, do double damage on a 17 or higher.. and triple damage on a nat20.
i try to include a version of this mechanic for any 'armor piercing' weapon i write up, missile or not.
it wouldn't be too hard to assign it to existing weapons that might deserve it.

I would agree with that the AP rounds used to be around the same damage with less blast radius so they never made much sense why people would want to use them. With the improved crit range they make much more sense.

[Killer Cyborg]

AP missiles, according to rue, do double damage on a 17 or higher.. and triple damage on a nat20.
i try to include a version of this mechanic for any 'armor piercing' weapon i write up, missile or not.
it wouldn't be too hard to assign it to existing weapons that might deserve it.

I would agree with that the AP rounds used to be around the same damage with less blast radius so they never made much sense why people would want to use them. With the improved crit range they make much more sense.

Not NEVER, just less often.
There are plenty of cases, though, where a lower blast area is a bonus, not a penalty.

[kaid]

AP missiles, according to rue, do double damage on a 17 or higher.. and triple damage on a nat20.
i try to include a version of this mechanic for any 'armor piercing' weapon i write up, missile or not.
it wouldn't be too hard to assign it to existing weapons that might deserve it.

I would agree with that the AP rounds used to be around the same damage with less blast radius so they never made much sense why people would want to use them. With the improved crit range they make much more sense.

Not NEVER, just less often.
There are plenty of cases, though, where a lower blast area is a bonus, not a penalty.

Typically if you are worried about blast radius you should not be shooting explosives. In my groups previously AP rounds were pretty much what you used when you could not find anything better for sale or you salvaged them. Now with the armor piercing rules for higher crits there is a decent reason to pack at least some of your payload with them for heavily armored targets like big robots/power armor.

[Killer Cyborg]

AP missiles, according to rue, do double damage on a 17 or higher.. and triple damage on a nat20.
i try to include a version of this mechanic for any 'armor piercing' weapon i write up, missile or not.
it wouldn't be too hard to assign it to existing weapons that might deserve it.

I would agree with that the AP rounds used to be around the same damage with less blast radius so they never made much sense why people would want to use them. With the improved crit range they make much more sense.

Not NEVER, just less often.
There are plenty of cases, though, where a lower blast area is a bonus, not a penalty.

Typically if you are worried about blast radius you should not be shooting explosives.

Not in Rifts, where there's precious little other than missiles that'll give you a mile or more range.
Or that can equal the firepower of a missile barrage.

In my groups previously AP rounds were pretty much what you used when you could not find anything better for sale or you salvaged them. Now with the armor piercing rules for higher crits there is a decent reason to pack at least some of your payload with them for heavily armored targets like big robots/power armor.

I'm all for the improved crits, because I agree that it adds something to the game.
I just don't think that they were bad before; we often chose them over plasma simply because so much is impervious to fire, and we sometimes chose them over HE simply because we wanted to minimize friendly fire and/or civilian casualties.

[flatline]

What is an armor piercing missile?

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

What is an armor piercing missile?

--flatline

A weapon that uses a warhead designed to defeat armored targets.
Usually means a HEAT (high explosive antitank AKA shaped charge) warhead, but can also means a HESH (high explosive squash head) or a kinetic penetrator with timed delay explosive core.

HEAT is most common for smaller missiles, kinetic/HE-core would be more common for the big stuff.
HESH tends to be more direct fire use.

[Zamion138]

Multiimput from mobile

[Zamion138]

I never rember the incresed crit range when playing or gming....going to have to write next tothe weapons on my sheet..........to think i could have been killing filthy cyber knights faster and wasnt makes my blood boil hehehehe

Side not anti robot headhunters get to crit on robots with an 18 19 or 20 would any one give them a higher crit range as well with ap weapons...ie 15 to 20 or 14 to 20??? Not to hit but for damage?

[The Galactus Kid]

In addition to armor piercing missiles, I would like to state that it has been mentioned in more than a few canon places (missile stat in Triax 2 for one) that fragmentation missiles do their full damage to anything in the blast radius, which is different than other missiles.

[glitterboy2098]

In addition to armor piercing missiles, I would like to state that it has been mentioned in more than a few canon places (missile stat in Triax 2 for one) that fragmentation missiles do their full damage to anything in the blast radius, which is different than other missiles.

didn't know that. will make note.

i do apply a similar mechanic to LRM nukes, based on how the city-killer nukes in SB4 worked. i also tend to assign the same secondary damage effects as found in SB4 (the radiation and such)

and wouldn't you know it, since deciding that, i haven't had reason to fire off a nuclear weapon in a game?

[kronos]

I had a thought.. what about armour piercing plasma missiles? They'd probably function similar to a HEAT style missile, or a kinetic penetrator + HE core, only plasma instead of HE.
So how would we stat these higher level AP missiles? Take the damage of a plasma missile, reduce blast radius and give it the improved crit of other AP missiles?

[Zamion138]

I had a thought.. what about armour piercing plasma missiles? They'd probably function similar to a HEAT style missile, or a kinetic penetrator + HE core, only plasma instead of HE.
So how would we stat these higher level AP missiles? Take the damage of a plasma missile, reduce blast radius and give it the improved crit of other AP missiles?

In rifts id say no, the peircing portion of a peircing missel is a shaped charge that when it goes off super heats a metal to function like a cutting torch.
While in the real world plasma would be perfect for this, in rifts plasma is a gas bomb exsplosion or at least thats how its always protrayed.
So irl plasma is the perfect ap, in rifts not so much.

[glitterboy2098]

plasma missile warheads are described as more of a 'super napalm' in some books, while in RUE it is described as more of a super hot, super short fire (pg362, right before the bit about how plasma weapons are useless against those resistant or immune to fire and heat) this would make it more like a non-explosive optimized thermobaric weapon than napalm.

HEAT warheads channel their explosion by their shape to create a narrow jet punching through the target. this is why the warheads have reduced blast radius. a kinetic penetrator+HE charge would punch into the target then explode, which would damp the blast radius of the explosion (most of the energy is expended inside the target, very little escapes)

i don't think you could channel a plasma missile charge like you do a HEAT warhead's explosion, nor do i think that putting a Plasma warhead inside a penetrator would offer much advantage over a HE charge (plasma warheads do their damage by thermal effects.. HE warheads are more concussive/pressure based. when penetrating armor, you want concussive/pressure, as it will twist and shatter the armor)

[Alrik Vas]

Mini Missile Rifles become pretty fracking cool with AP types. Even short volleys become massively dangerous to armor.

[Shark_Force]

i don't think you could channel a plasma missile charge like you do a HEAT warhead's explosion, nor do i think that putting a Plasma warhead inside a penetrator would offer much advantage over a HE charge (plasma warheads do their damage by thermal effects.. HE warheads are more concussive/pressure based. when penetrating armor, you want concussive/pressure, as it will twist and shatter the armor)

or, to put it another way...

when you contain an explosion, all the force is channelled into one place. plasma isn't an explosion, there's no concussive force to channel or contain. there's no shockwave. it's just pure thermal energy. it needs time to transfer, and unless you're generating a perfect seal somehow (good luck pulling that one off), the "gas" (it's not exactly that, but close enough) will simply vent into the environment and release the energy on everything in the environment.

[jaymz]

Mini Missile Rifles become pretty fracking cool with AP types. Even short volleys become massively dangerous to armor.

My Robotech/Macross GM has learned to hate A/P missiles......It's all I generally equip my VFs with now

[Shark_Force]

mind you, there's a bit of a drawback to that as well... since it isn't completely reliable. i mean, you can't lob a single AP mini-missile and rely on it dealing 3d4x10 damage... which means if 3d4x10 is what it takes to reliably kill something, you probably need to volley 3 of them anyways.

it's a definite significant boost if you prefer to fire them off one at a time, or if you prefer multiple smaller volleys over one big alpha strike.

[flatline]

mind you, there's a bit of a drawback to that as well... since it isn't completely reliable. i mean, you can't lob a single AP mini-missile and rely on it dealing 3d4x10 damage... which means if 3d4x10 is what it takes to reliably kill something, you probably need to volley 3 of them anyways.

it's a definite significant boost if you prefer to fire them off one at a time, or if you prefer multiple smaller volleys over one big alpha strike.

It is usually my goal to never draw the attention of someone who is likely to shoot a missile at me, let alone a volley of missiles, but, if it's unavoidable, I prefer they use everything in a single volley so that I only have to cast D-shift Phantom, Wink-Out, Time Slip, or whatever seems appropriate just the one time.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

It is usually my goal to never draw the attention of someone who is likely to shoot a missile at me, let alone a volley of missiles

Good goal.

[Alrik Vas]

It is usually my goal to never draw the attention of someone who is likely to shoot a missile at me, let alone a volley of missiles, but, if it's unavoidable, I prefer they use everything in a single volley so that I only have to cast D-shift Phantom, Wink-Out, Time Slip, or whatever seems appropriate just the one time.

--flatline

If i recall, there are some abilities/spells you can do defensively as such. All those spells you can use in the place of a dodge?

[flatline]

It is usually my goal to never draw the attention of someone who is likely to shoot a missile at me, let alone a volley of missiles, but, if it's unavoidable, I prefer they use everything in a single volley so that I only have to cast D-shift Phantom, Wink-Out, Time Slip, or whatever seems appropriate just the one time.

--flatline

If i recall, there are some abilities/spells you can do defensively as such. All those spells you can use in the place of a dodge?

It all depends on how reasonable your GM is, I suppose.

With the use of a Talisman, any of these can be cast in a single action. If someone fires a volley of missiles from enough distance that you could attempt to shoot down the volley, then I've never met a GM that wouldn't allow you do perform any action that can be done in the same amount of time as an attack.

If I'm being attacked in a location that I've prepared, I'll save the Talisman charge and simply dive into the Dimensional Envelope that I've likely got nearby.

D-shift Phantom is handy if you know they're going to attack, but they haven't yet. You can cast it before the attack and, depending on how perceptive they are (and whether they're using any non-visual sensors) since you're still visible, they might still fire their weapons at you.

Time Slip is an excellent way to get to your prepared Dimensional Envelope that might be too far to reach otherwise or to buy the time to cast a 2-action spell that you don't have prepped as a Talisman. Stop Time is a 9th level spell so you can't use it with Talisman, but by using Time Slip, you can get it off before the volley reaches you thus trapping the volley. If your attacker doesn't notice, they might wander into the stopped time area and be trapped until it expires.

Wink-out actually gives you enough time for some serious spell casting, but if you have friends, you're basically abandoning them, so it's use is kind of niche. I once stayed in combat long enough to let my friends escape and once they were clear, I used Wink-out and from within the wink-out dimensional bubble (or whatever it is) used Dimensional Portal to get to safety. Might seem like overkill, but I was out of PPE and had a Wink-out talisman and scroll of Dimensional Portal, so I figured I might as well use them in a way that would let me and my friends survive the encounter.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Right, so dependant upon GM whether or not you can do it in place of a parry or dodge.

[flatline]

Right, so dependant upon GM whether or not you can do it in place of a parry or dodge.

No tactic will work if the GM decides it won't.

Perhaps I've been fortunate to always have a GM that allows defensive spells to be used in place of a dodge, assuming you can cast them in one action. Heck, with the new casting times from RUE, I'd expect Energy Field to be way more popular now than it used to be.

--flatline

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Mini Missile Rifles become pretty fracking cool with AP types. Even short volleys become massively dangerous to armor.

My Robotech/Macross GM has learned to hate A/P missiles......It's all I generally equip my VFs with now

I suppose i'd run the hardpoints with missiles, still, but for FAST packs i always preferred the dual-particle beam choice on the back.

[glitterboy2098]

Mini Missile Rifles become pretty fracking cool with AP types. Even short volleys become massively dangerous to armor.

My Robotech/Macross GM has learned to hate A/P missiles......It's all I generally equip my VFs with now

I suppose i'd run the hardpoints with missiles, still, but for FAST packs i always preferred the dual-particle beam choice on the back.

which isn't in either edition of the game, and technically is a conversion. (being from DYRL.. which isn't part of robotech)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

you put the "Robotech/Macross" as though you were playing both.

The dual particle beam FAST packs are also in Flashback: 2012 (where they appeared first, actually), are seen equipped on VF-1's in a museum in Macross 7: Trash, and are in Digital Mission VFX (the first one).

A conversion, yes, if you're playing Robotech, but if you're playing a pure Macross game, they're legit. All they were was salvaged particle beams from Battle Pods married to the original FAST booster tanks.

[jaymz]

Mini Missile Rifles become pretty fracking cool with AP types. Even short volleys become massively dangerous to armor.

My Robotech/Macross GM has learned to hate A/P missiles......It's all I generally equip my VFs with now

I suppose i'd run the hardpoints with missiles, still, but for FAST packs i always preferred the dual-particle beam choice on the back.

Missile are a quicker kill in general but I could understand why you'd do that. Unlimited ammo is always a good back up and I'd likely do that myself IF we had been using my redone Robotech/Macross stats.

[jaymz]

Mini Missile Rifles become pretty fracking cool with AP types. Even short volleys become massively dangerous to armor.

My Robotech/Macross GM has learned to hate A/P missiles......It's all I generally equip my VFs with now

I suppose i'd run the hardpoints with missiles, still, but for FAST packs i always preferred the dual-particle beam choice on the back.

which isn't in either edition of the game, and technically is a conversion. (being from DYRL.. which isn't part of robotech)

Though one could argue (just for the sake of inclusion maybe) that they should exist as part of Macross II

[Killer Cyborg]

Right, so dependant upon GM whether or not you can do it in place of a parry or dodge.

No tactic will work if the GM decides it won't.

Perhaps I've been fortunate to always have a GM that allows defensive spells to be used in place of a dodge, assuming you can cast them in one action. Heck, with the new casting times from RUE, I'd expect Energy Field to be way more popular now than it used to be.

--flatline

As long as a spell/power/whatever takes one action or less, I let them be used as a parry or dodge if it seems reasonable.

[Mack]

I endorse using the AP rule (crit on 17+, triple on Nat 20) on railguns and certain rifle-launched grenades. Otherwise there's very little reason to lug the heavy things around instead of a energy weapon.

And I apply it to all railguns, including the GB's Boom Gun. Really makes you think twice about facing one when you consider that with bonuses the GB pilot has a decent chance of hitting for 3D6x20 (average of 210 MD) and a 5% chance of hitting for 3D6x30 (average of 315 MD).

[Shark_Force]

I endorse using the AP rule (crit on 17+, triple on Nat 20) on railguns and certain rifle-launched grenades. Otherwise there's very little reason to lug the heavy things around instead of a energy weapon.

And I apply it to all railguns, including the GB's Boom Gun. Really makes you think twice about facing one when you consider that with bonuses the GB pilot has a decent chance of hitting for 3D6x20 (average of 210 MD) and a 5% chance of hitting for 3D6x30 (average of 315 MD).

funny thing, the glitter boy is probably the one i would be least inclined to consider armour-piercing, considering it is basically firing grapeshot. very nicely made grapeshot as opposed to improvised grapeshot, granted, but still... grapeshot.