When did 4 attacks become the norm?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Well depending on if you have the old rule book or the new one it they where rolled into the hand to hand skill.

First Printing Rifts Main Book

In PF and HU the hand to hand basic threw martial arts gave you 2 plus the two for beeing alive as did the rifts main book.

No, it doesn't (the new version of PF may, but the original certainly didn't, i have a second printing sitting right here). The original RMB only mentions the "2 attacks for living" in a single place - the cut-and-pasted Psychic combat section taken from Beyond The Supernatural. It isn't mentioned anywhere else in the entire book.

Then in RUE the same skills have 4 because they rolled the two for beeing alive in, for simplicty and to deal with some SN with specific fighting styles, this also is the system in ninas and super spies with the martal arts usaly starting with 3-4 attacks.

Actually, most of the martial arts in N&SS Revised start with 2 (and a few start with only 1). Only some of the very "hard" forms start with 3 or 4... and those usually dont get much in the way of martial arts powers. N&SS Revised may as well be a different system entirely.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In PF and HU the hand to hand basic threw martial arts gave you 2 plus the two for being alive as did the rifts main book.

No, it doesn't (the new version of PF may, but the original certainly didn't, i have a second printing sitting right here). The original RMB only mentions the "2 attacks for living" in a single place - the cut-and-pasted Psychic combat section taken from Beyond The Supernatural. It isn't mentioned anywhere else in the entire book.

The PF2 main book does not have any "2 APM for Living". It lists the total how many APM the char gets, absent skill modifiers.
pf2 apm's @ L1...
No h2h: 1
h2h basic: 2
h2h Expert: 2
h2h MA: 2
h2h Assassin: 1

side-note: The PB writers seam to forget that PF2 chars do not get the "2 APM for Living" when creating their NPC's for PF2.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

side-note: The PB writers seam to forget that PF2 chars do not get the "2 APM for Living" when creating their NPC's for PF2.

Probably because the inclusion or exclusion of the +2 attacks for PCs/Heroes is so uneven in the various Palladium systems. It is rather natural to assume it works the same way in all the games, when it doesnt and you wouldn't know that unless you went over them with a fine toothed comb.

[Hotrod]

Rifts: China 2, Page 19, just before the hand-to-hand forms has this to say:

In the RPG and other books, it states that a character has "TWO attacks per melee to start." However, this does not include the two attacks per round any character with hand to hand training is supposed to start with. Yeah, we know that is confusing, that's why most of these combat lists state that the character starts with THREE or FOUR. So please do NOT add another two to this starting number. Example: A character with Hand-to-Hand: Basic starts with four melee attacks, and as he grows in experience has a total of 5 at level four, 6 at level nine, and 7 at level 15. If the Boxing skill is also taken, the character would have one more than those listed here. Also note that some OCCs and RCCs, like the Juicer and Cyber-Knight, provide additional attacks per melee round and combat bonuses.

[Killer Cyborg]

Was China 2 before or after the RGMG?

[Hotrod]

You have to consider it in context. That blurb preceeds a long section detailing advanced Chinese martial arts in which each starts with three or four attacks per melee. Those martial arts are not meant to be added over the two attacks for living, but other martial arts are.

[Hotrod]

Was China 2 before or after the RGMG?

China 2 was published in 2004. Rifts Game Master Guide was published in 2001. Ergo, after.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, it seems like it's just saying that these styles have the total starting attacks already listed, so don't add the TAFL, like you would for the original forms, assuming that your copy of the RMB doesn't already include them.

IIRC, there was a similar note in the RGMG.

[Nekira Sudacne]

P. 290 of HU1, though, has this passage:

The Typical Average Man
One Attack Per Melee
Hit Point: 12, S.D.C.: J2
Attributes vary widely from person to person . Roll 306 for each; 16, 17, or 18 gets the bonus roll and abilities. The most typical man probably has a P.S. of l30r 14 and a high school or one year of college level of education. A hand to hand combat skill will increase the number of attacks per melee to two at first level and higher as designated by the hand to hand skill.

Which indicates that the base from HTH overlaps the base from just being a person, for civilians, anyway.
I'm guessing that HU1 was the first Palladium game where they included the "2 attacks at first level" line in the text of the HTH skills?

I'm still looking through the book.

as I said, the two attacks were for heroes, not for everyone. meaning non-heroic NPCs did not receive the two attacks. so the typical average man, not being a hero, would of course not get the extra two attacks.

It's not just that he doesn't start with 2 attacks; it's that the 1 attack that he DOES start with doesn't stack with the HTH skills.
Which is how things work in Rifts- the base attacks you get from HTH skill aren't added to anything, they're just a new base that overlaps any previous lower base.

in every game you always have 1 attack per melee if you have no HtH skills, and then whatever your HtH says if you do. this is hardly unique to HU. at least it was until RUE expanded the rules for those with no HtH skill with "noncombat actions" per melee and some little advancement.

It IS different from heroes starting with a base of two attacks, and adding that base to the base number for the HTH skill.
Which is why I thought it was worth noting.
For civilians in HU1, it works the same basic way that it does for everybody in the RMB; the bases overlap, not stack.
Meanwhile, it seem that they want Heroes/Villains to stack, not overlap.
Different rules for different characters in the same game.

I see, I had misunderstood what you were saying. we're in agreement then.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Okay.... let's just pretend for the moment that I didn't already post THIS, which already addresses your point:

Spoiler:

I know it was like that in rifts when it first came out

No, it was not.

Here's how I broke it down in a previous post on the subject:

The statement that has been quoted several times now is a pretty straight forward and clear statement. All players automatically start with two attacks. How does that not come across clearly to you and why?
Additonal attacks are gained from Hand to Hand skills and boxing. Again how is it you or anyone can say it has not been there since day one in Rifts?

I have first printings of the RMB & Conversion Book and there it is.

HOW do you misintrepret "ALL PLAYERS START WITH 2 ATTACKS?" Main Book first printing 1990. Where is the room for error? All Players? Start? With 2 Attacks?

I honestly do not see how you can misunderstand that?

I'll explain.

First of all, the statement itself is likely a mistake. For one thing, it's in the psychic combat section; NOT the normal combat section.
For another, it is directly contradicted on p. 28 under the physical skills section, in the description of hand to hand skills.
"Characters without combat training have one hand to hand attack per melee at levels one and two, but get a second attack at level three and a third attack at level nine."

Also, under the HTH skill descriptions (p. 37), HTH Basic says "Two attacks per melee" at level one. Not "+2 attacks per melee," like it says everywhere else that bonus attacks are described just "Two attacks per melee."

And on the same page, HTH Expert and Martial Arts both say; "Two attacke per melee to start."
I don't see how that's unclear. A first level character with HTH Expert/MA gets Two Attacks Per Melee to start.... NOT two bonus attacks, not +2 attacks, just two attacks per melee to start.
This is clearly describing a base number of attacks.

Furthermore, the writers themselves (Meaning KS) never use the TAFL (Two Attacks For Living) in the Rifts book.

p. 39, under "Determining the Number of Attacks Per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"This is how it works. Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor:
1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand combat skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. The total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible."

No mention of any free two attacks for living.
Only two factors; HTH skill, and Robot Combat skill.

Furthermore, "Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of four attacks per melee."
That's 4 attacks; two from HTH skill, and two from Robot/PA combat skill.
NOT 6 attacks, which is what would be common if KS was using the TAFL.

p. 40 (discussing characters with Pilot: Robots & Power Armor skill, but no Robot Combat skill)
"A first level character will usuall have two attacks per melee."
"If a pilot does not have hand to hand combat training, he or she is limited to one attack per melee and NO special bonuses."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
Why 5?
If KS was using TAFL, then he'd have at least 6 attacks; 2 for living, 2 from HTH, and 2 from Robot Combat.

p. 42-44
"An Example of Combat"
Portrays a battle between a UAR-1 and some bandits.
The UAR-1 has 5 attacks. The rebel SAMAS pilot only has 4.
If KS was using TAFL, then the UAR-1 would have 6+ attacks, and so would the SAMAS (unless he had no robot combat skill, in which case he'd only have 1-2 attacks according to the rules cited above).

p. 249
Animalistic supernatural predators have 1d4 attacks per melee.
This makes sense if the average is assumed to be 2-3 attacks per melee... the animals might be a bit slower or a bit faster than the normal human. At worst, they'd be just as slow as an untrained human (1 attack).
It does NOT make sense if the average number of attacks for a human is 4-5... that would mean that even an untrained human would be twice as fast as 25% of the supernatural predators, and that the fastest supernatural predators would only be as fast as a normal 1st level human with HTH: Basic.

p. 251
Intelligent Supernatural Monsters also get only 1d4 attacks per melee.
So ditto all the above for predators, only more-so.

p. 256
A Typical Coalition Grunt is first level, has HTH: Expert, and has 2 attacks per melee.
A Typical Coalition SAMAS has HTH Expet + Elite Power Armor Combat for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
A Typical High-Tech Bandit has HTH: Expert and 2 attacks per melee.

So if you have any explanation for how KS meant to include the TAFL in the main book, but neglected to ever use it or mention it outside of that one passage under psychic combat, and somehow neglected to edit out all the rules contradicting the TAFL... let's hear it!

Personally, I don't think he's that incompetent.
I can buy him making a single mistake in the psychic combat section more easily than I can buy him making 8+ mistakes spread out all through the book.

The statements in the RMB that are along the lines of "all player characters start with two attacks" are based on an assumption that all PCs are going to have HTH combat skills, and that their HTH combat skill is NOT going to be Assassin (as Assassin is reserved for Evil characters, and there is an assumption that PCs won't be Evil).
The references to gaining attacks from HTH combat skills are referring to the fact that characters with HTH skills gained attacks as they leveled up, NOT to stacking the base attacks from the forms to a mythical 2 attacks that "everybody" always gets.

Now, some people usually pop up to claim that the TAFL was intended for PCs only, and that's why NPCs don't have them.
But that still skips over the references to the average PC having only 2 attacks at first level (or 4 attacks if they're robot pilots), and it ignores the sentence from Rifts, p. 37
(Right after the mention that all PCs get two attacks to start):
"A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions."
That's the same description of attacks as when it describes PCs.
NPCs and PCs work the same way when it comes to determining attacks per melee.


Here's another recounting that I did.
There's some overlap with the other recounting, but there's some additional references as well:

Two attacks for living are in the core rules...

1. No, they weren't.
2. If they were, then please enlighten me on the following things:
p. 35:
"Characters without combat training have only one attack per melee and have no automatic parry."

p. 37 Under Hand to Hand: Expert and Martial Arts
"Level 1 Two attacks per melee to start"
Under HTH: Assassin
"one attack per melee"
Any time a character gets bonus attacks, they are listed as "+1 Attack(s)." Never as just "x attacks per melee" and definitely not "x attacks to start."

p. 39 under "Determinign the Number of Attacks per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor: 1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand comabt skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. the total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible. Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of FOUR attacks per melee."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
This can make sense if the pilot has 2 attacks from his HTH skill, one attack from boxing, and two from his Robot Combat skill.

Also on p. 40 (emphasis added):
"For example: A Coalition Urban Assault Bot is up against four bandit robots. The pilot decides to launch four of his missiles at one enemy. That's one attack, leaving three more that melee. He can not fire the four missiles simultaneously at all four of the enemy. To strike all four, the pilot must fire at each individual target seperately. However, this will take up all four of the pilot's attacks that melee."
Again, this only makes sense if he has 2 attacks from HTH and 2 attacks from Robot Combat.
No 2 attacks for living.

p. 42-44 "An Example of Combat"
The SAMAS pilots only have 4 attacks each, and the UAR-1 Enforcer pilot only has 5 attacks each. Again, no Two Attacks For Living (TAFL, for short).

p. 194 SAMAS armor.
The C-40R has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS SAMAS Pilot would be 6.

p. 196 The UAR-1 Enforcer
The C-50R rail gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Enforcer Pilot would be 6.

p. 198 The Spider-Skull Walker
The C-100R rail guns has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

The CR-4T Laser Turrets have an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

p. 223 The Glitter Boy
The Boom Gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a Glitter Boyr Pilot would be 6.

p. 249
A randomly rolled Animalistic Predator only has 1d4 attacks.
If the PCs have the TAFL, then this means that the very fastest of these wupernatural predators will be only as fast as a low-end level 1 character.

P. 251
The Intelligent Supernatural Monsters have the same number of attacks; 1d4.

p. 256
-The Typical CS Grunt has HTH Expert and only 2 attacks per melee. No TAFL.
-The Typical CS SAMAS has HTH Expert + Elite Power Armor Combat training for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.
-All listed dinosaurs have 2 attacks per melee. If PCs had TAFL, then a first level scholar with HTH basic would be twice as fast as any dinosaur.
-A Typical High Tech Bandit or Headhunter has HTH: Expert and has 2 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.

Edit:
And here's ANOTHER old post where I address the issue:

When I went to Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat traingin get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparantly cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round tha more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.

And let's just take a look at your argument as-is.
You seem to be saying:
a) That the sentences: "All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing."
mean that all characters have a base 2 attacks, and that these attacks are added to the base 2 attacks for HTH skills.
But that's not what it says.
See, when it starts off by saying "all player characters automatically start off with two attacks per melee," that's a direct contradiction of Rifts page 35, where it notes under the "Hand To Hand Combat" entry:
Characters without combat training have only one attack per melee and have NO automatic chance to parry..
So if a character doesn't have any HTH skill, the doesn't have that mythical base two attacks that you're wanting to say gets added to the base attacks of the martial arts.
There is no base two attacks: there is only a base one attack.
IF you have a HTH skill, and that skill is anything other than HTH Assassin, then what happens is your base number of attacks gets raised to Two.
That's why the HTH skill say (Rifts 37):
Two attacks per melee[i] for HTH Basic, and an even more specific [i]two attacks per melee to start for HTH Expert and Martial Arts.
Notice that it doesn't say "PLUS two attacks per melee" or "+2 attacks per melee," or "An additional two attacks that you add to two other attacks," or anything like that.
It simply states that a character who has one of these HTH skills starts with two attacks per melee.
That's the only base two attacks.
If you have no HTH skill, you only have one attack.
If you have Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts, then you start off with 2 attacks.
I know... you're probably thinking, "But what about HTH Assassin!? THAT skill says "one attack per melee" at first level! How's that fit in?"
It doesn't fit in. It was ignored in the passage you quote, because HTH Assassin was supposed to be for Bad Guys, not for PCs.
That's why whenever HTH Assassin is listed as a possible OCC skill, it's usually with the note of "(or Assassin if an evil alignment).

When that passage that you're quoting talks about PCs starting off with two attacks per melee, it's talking about the base two attacks from HTH skills.
That's it. That's all it's referring to.
We know this, because there is no other base 2 attacks. Again, people without HTH skills only have one attack.

Let's read that passage again, and see if it makes sense in the context I'm describing, in the context of assuming that the PCs in question have HTH Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts:

A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee.
Check! Those are the base two that are listed (with no note of adding them to anything, or adding anything to them) under Level One of each of these HTH skill description.
Those two attacks that the characters automatically start off with are the "Two attacks per melee to start" that the skills describe.
"Automatically start off with two attacks" = "Two attacks per melee to start."
Both phrases mean the same thing, and they refer to the same thing.

Now, the next part:
Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing.
Does it make sense to refer to those base attacks from HTH skills in the first sentence, then to follow it with another sentence describing GAINING attacks from HTH skills?
Yes.
Because [u]as you level up[/i], you GAIN attacks per melee.
With HTH Basic, for example, at 4th level, the book says that you get: "+ One Additional Attack Per Melee."
Notice that Plus Sign?
That's an addition.
It's an addition to those two attacks that you start off with.
It's an attack that you have gained, in addition to the two attacks per melee that you had to start.
"Two Attacks Per Melee To Start" at first level, then you GAIN another attack per melee at 4th level (or whenever, depending on which skill you have).
You automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee, as per the 1st level description in your HTH skill, and additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills at later levels.


b) You seem to be saying that PCs get more attacks than NPCs, and that's why absolutely none of the NPCs, or sample characters, or sample combats in the RMB include those extra two attacks.
But read the THIRD sentence in that passage that you quoted at me:
"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

Now compare the first 2 sentences two that third sentence:
All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing.
vs.
A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions.

Other than being more succinct, what exactly is the difference between these two descriptions?
PCs automatically start off with two attacks per melee.
NPCs start off with two attacks per melee.
PCs gain attacks from HTH combat and/or boxing.
NPCs gain attacks from HTH combat and/or boxing.
It's saying the exact same thing.
So where in there is there ANY room for the idea that PCs get any extra attacks that NPCs do NOT get?

And IF the intention was for NPCs to have two less attacks than PCs, then why did the NPCs around the time Atlantis came out start all suddenly getting those extra two attacks?

[drewkitty ~..~]

side-note: The PB writers seam to forget that PF2 chars do not get the "2 APM for Living" when creating their NPC's for PF2.

Probably because the inclusion or exclusion of the +2 attacks for PCs/Heroes is so uneven in the various Palladium systems. It is rather natural to assume it works the same way in all the games, when it doesn't and you wouldn't know that unless you went over them with a fine toothed comb.

Don't need to go over the PF2 book with a fine tooth comb. It is all there in the Combat section that are no APM for living in PF2. Something even a Newb can realize.
--------------------------------------------
Rifts China
These books were written to be different from the other Rifts books as to be "almost" another setting in themselves. Which would explain the 'going back to basics' text.

Then, since the h2h's in RC2 are based off the MAF in the N&S/MC books it comes to reason that Erick decided to make it explicitly clear that the chars get the TAFL when taking those h2h's.
--------------------------------------------

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Note said above quoted from the RMB is from the Psychic Combat section. Which means it can be easily said that the quoted text is only for Psychic combat. This is why there was such fervent "Descussions" about yes/no about TAFL.
This was not corrected till the RGMG.

Athos please include from which section you are quoting from so people can look any quoted text up better.

*yawns*

[kaid]

Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Hmm.. given the way that reads...

Im not sure i can go with KC's assertion that it was a cut and pasted remnant from HU - the text is actually changed to reflect Rifts. (Supernatural creatures, etc - stuff not mentioned in the HU:R text). Let me check BtS1 and see if it may be lifted from there.

edit: Yep, it is cut-and-pasted (well, re-used and wax-pressed) from BtS 1, directly. As this is the only referrence to the "All PCs get 2 attacks + H2H skills" in the RMB, i can go along with the "editing mistake" because they just grabbed the blocking from BtS1 and dropped it in unchanged.

further edit:

As HU:R and BtS1 both came after Robotech and before Rifts (pretty sure BtS 1 was before Rifts... have to check) and both of those systems include the "2 attacks for PCs/Heroes" - it is also reasonable to assume that anyone coming to Rifts would assume that since Palladium's system is supposed to be universal and the skill blocking in all the books is identical ('cut and pasted') that all PCs should get the 2 attacks. I know we certain did the first time we cracked open Rifts. It wasnt until later we noticed that most of the stats for NPCs didnt reflect it and then thought to look in the rulebook.

That is pretty much the paragraph that had me and my group playing that way all along. But if you look at the preceding page talking about hand to hand powers and the next few pages that show an example of play the implication is the only attacks you get are the ones from your HTH skill and you do not start with any base ones.

Like the example of the robot pilot getting 2 attacks from HTH martial arts and 2 from power armor elite for a total of 4 attacks and they specify it as 4 attacks total per round.


I think at some point in the development there was some flipping between the two styles in play testing and it just did not get fully cleaned up at the time the book was printed.

[kaid]

side-note: The PB writers seam to forget that PF2 chars do not get the "2 APM for Living" when creating their NPC's for PF2.

Probably because the inclusion or exclusion of the +2 attacks for PCs/Heroes is so uneven in the various Palladium systems. It is rather natural to assume it works the same way in all the games, when it doesn't and you wouldn't know that unless you went over them with a fine toothed comb.

Don't need to go over the PF2 book with a fine tooth comb. It is all there in the Combat section that are no APM for living in PF2. Something even a Newb can do.
--------------------------------------------
Rifts China
These books were written to be different from the other Rifts books as to be "almost" another setting in themselves. Which would explain the 'going back to basics' text.

Then, since the h2h's in RC2 are based off the MAF in the N&S/MC books it comes to reason that Erick decided to make it explicitly clear that the chars get the TAFL when taking those h2h's.
--------------------------------------------

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Note said above quoted from the RMB is from the Psychic Combat section. Which means it can be easily said that the quoted text is only for Psychic combat. This was not corrected till the RGMG.

Athos please include from which section you are quoting from so people can look any quoted text up better.

*yawns*

Except the psychic combat section also says that the amount of attacks per round a psychic can make exactly equals the amount of hand to hand attacks they have and then goes on to give that description of how many attacks a player starts with. So it really is a pretty clear statement for how it should work the only problem being it is also pretty clearly contradicted elsewhere in the book.

[Athos]

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Note said above quoted from the RMB is from the Psychic Combat section. Which means it can be easily said that the quoted text is only for Psychic combat. This was not corrected till the RGMG.

Athos please include from which section you are quoting from so people can look any quoted text up better.

*yawns*

If you are not smart enough to see that the section is applicable to the question
at hand, then I am afraid you are too dumb to be educated by my teachings

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Hmm.. given the way that reads...

Im not sure i can go with KC's assertion that it was a cut and pasted remnant from HU - the text is actually changed to reflect Rifts. (Supernatural creatures, etc - stuff not mentioned in the HU:R text). Let me check BtS1 and see if it may be lifted from there.

edit: Yep, it is cut-and-pasted (well, re-used and wax-pressed) from BtS 1, directly. As this is the only referrence to the "All PCs get 2 attacks + H2H skills" in the RMB, i can go along with the "editing mistake" because they just grabbed the blocking from BtS1 and dropped it in unchanged.

further edit:

As HU:R and BtS1 both came after Robotech and before Rifts (pretty sure BtS 1 was before Rifts... have to check) and both of those systems include the "2 attacks for PCs/Heroes" - it is also reasonable to assume that anyone coming to Rifts would assume that since Palladium's system is supposed to be universal and the skill blocking in all the books is identical ('cut and pasted') that all PCs should get the 2 attacks. I know we certain did the first time we cracked open Rifts. It wasnt until later we noticed that most of the stats for NPCs didnt reflect it and then thought to look in the rulebook.

That is pretty much the paragraph that had me and my group playing that way all along. But if you look at the preceding page talking about hand to hand powers and the next few pages that show an example of play the implication is the only attacks you get are the ones from your HTH skill and you do not start with any base ones.

Like the example of the robot pilot getting 2 attacks from HTH martial arts and 2 from power armor elite for a total of 4 attacks and they specify it as 4 attacks total per round.


I think at some point in the development there was some flipping between the two styles in play testing and it just did not get fully cleaned up at the time the book was printed.

Trust me, it isn't that complicated. It's not a playtesting thing, or something they went back and forth on. It's copy/paste laziness error.

[Killer Cyborg]

Trust me, it isn't that complicated. It's not a playtesting thing, or something they went back and forth on. It's copy/paste laziness error.

I wouldn't even call it an error, except for the part where it's assuming that PCs all have one of the HTH skills, and are of Good Alignment.

As you pointed out, it's cut and pasted from BtS.
But BtS doesn't necessarily have the TAFL either; it's all sorts of messed up, with no over-riding pattern.

The only real error that I'm seeing is people reading that passage, and thinking that it's describing something that it's not.

[Eashamahel]

From people who actually played around the time the game (Rifts) was released, or at least early in the setting (like, first couple world books), did anyone play it with the extra 2 attacks back then? Because for myself and my group, we never started it until the GMG came out. We'd kind of noticed it before and thought it might be supposed to be like that, thus my asking if anyone remembered any note in a World Book earlier, but no one I know or played with in the rulebook/conversion book/sourcebook 1 era thought that a basic character with a hand to hand had 4.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

From people who actually played around the time the game (Rifts) was released, or at least early in the setting (like, first couple world books), did anyone play it with the extra 2 attacks back then? Because for myself and my group, we never started it until the GMG came out. We'd kind of noticed it before and thought it might be supposed to be like that, thus my asking if anyone remembered any note in a World Book earlier, but no one I know or played with in the rulebook/conversion book/sourcebook 1 era thought that a basic character with a hand to hand had 4.

We played with the 2AFL simply because we were playing Heroes Unlimited (Revised) extensively prior to the release of Rifts. We simply assumed that, Palladium being a "universal" system, that the 2AFL applied. We didn't even bother to read until a year or two later that it wasn't supposed to be like that. We didn't even read the combat section of Rifts - after all, why should we? We already played Robotech (which the entire High-Tech combat section was cut from) and HU:R, so we knew the system back-to-front; it never occured to us that after adding a new mechanic in their most up to date books (HU:R) prior to Rifts (the 2AFL for PCs/Heros) that they would then go backwards and remove it from Rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

From people who actually played around the time the game (Rifts) was released, or at least early in the setting (like, first couple world books), did anyone play it with the extra 2 attacks back then? Because for myself and my group, we never started it until the GMG came out. We'd kind of noticed it before and thought it might be supposed to be like that, thus my asking if anyone remembered any note in a World Book earlier, but no one I know or played with in the rulebook/conversion book/sourcebook 1 era thought that a basic character with a hand to hand had 4.

Sometime in our second year of playing Rifts, one player did hold up that passage from the psychic combat section and say that he thought that it mean that everybody should start with 4 attacks per melee if they have HTH combat.
I read the passage, looked at the NPCs in the books, and decided that wasn't what it meant, because that was obviously not how the NPCs were made.
(Or the sample combats, etc.)
That was pretty much that.

[flatline]

When we started playing RIfts, we used HU characters from an established campaign so naturally those characters had the 2 attacks for living. As those characters got replaced by actual Rifts characters, we continued to use the 2 attacks for living because that's what we were used to. I don't think it even crossed our minds that it wasn't intended to be that way.

Of course, shortly after that we dropped the idea of attacks per melee entirely...

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Note said above quoted from the RMB is from the Psychic Combat section. Which means it can be easily said that the quoted text is only for Psychic combat. This was not corrected till the RGMG.

Athos please include from which section you are quoting from so people can look any quoted text up better.

*yawns*

If you are not smart enough to see that the section is applicable to the question
at hand, then I am afraid you are too dumb to be educated by my teachings

I have Never played rifts chars without any APM for living. Was pointing out why there were arguments over the Yah or neh of whether of not they TAFL applied to rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

How about this though, base line, do you LIKE the +2 APM concept, or would you rather it not apply to Rifts Earth? As a GM, I feel that there are already enough actions going on, and it would shorten Rifts somewhat cumbersome combat system to a degree? What do the rest of you think?

I think that the addition of the TAFL screwed up Rifts in so many ways that the game STILL hasn't recovered.
Animals went from being as fast as an average human, to being 1/2 as fast.
Juicers went from being 2x as fast as an average human to being 50% faster.
Mages went from being able to cast spells as fast as an average soldier could shoot (i.e., 2 per melee) to being only able to cast 1 spell per 2 shots (though RUE patched that), AND it meant that spells could be interrupted, which screwed mages over pretty hard.
Vampires went from being 2x as fast as normal humans to being 50% faster. Ditto power armor pilots.
Ditto robots.
Randomly rolled monsters from the RMB only have 1d4 attacks on average, which means that AT BEST, they're as fast as a normal (trained) human.
A lot of the balance that was originally in Rifts got screwed up, or at least seriously changed.

All in all, Kevin would have been better off just leaving the number of attacks alone, and shortening the melee rounds.
That would have made the number of attacks per melee more realistic, but wouldn't have screwed so much stuff up.

[Hotrod]

So if PFRPG attacks don't work like this (and I don't think they do), then what happens when PF characters rift to Rifts, and vice-versa? Does a dimensional anomaly cut two attacks from everyone, or do the folks of Palladium Fantasy just have relatively sucky fighting ability?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Except the psychic combat section also says that the amount of attacks per round a psychic can make exactly equals the amount of hand to hand attacks they have and then goes on to give that description of how many attacks a player starts with. So it really is a pretty clear statement for how it should work the only problem being it is also pretty clearly contradicted elsewhere in the book.

You might want to reread what you are talking about, with an eye for detail in what you are reading.

Cause the psychic section does not state anything about 2AP for living.

I have the 1st printing of PF2, and the psychic sections example about trading h2h attacks for psi attacks is for when a char has 4 APM. It does not say what level the example char was. Nor was there any level implied.

And the reminder note says that most chars start off with 2 APM to start (this is due to h2h assassin and no h2h chars only getting 1 APM to start), and gaining more by leveling up the h2h skill and through acquiring boxing, and by special bonuses gain by magic.

Unless you have a later printing where that section was ninja-mod'ed, critical reading practice should be scheduled.
---------------------------------

So if PFRPG attacks don't work like this (and I don't think they do), then what happens when PF characters rift to Rifts, and vice-versa? Does a dimensional anomaly cut two attacks from everyone, or do the folks of Palladium Fantasy just have relatively sucky fighting ability?

The easiest way to say with in canon, is to add or subtract said TAFL as they exit enter the PF world.

If you are just a lazy GM and players then just adding TAFL to PF chars would be easiest house rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

So if PFRPG attacks don't work like this (and I don't think they do), then what happens when PF characters rift to Rifts, and vice-versa? Does a dimensional anomaly cut two attacks from everyone, or do the folks of Palladium Fantasy just have relatively sucky fighting ability?

Palladium should really write some kind of book that could be used to convert characters from other settings to Rifts.
Then they could cover this sort of thing, perhaps on p. 27 of the 5th printing, for example.

[Hotrod]

I thought that was for 1st edition conversions, but if not... then I guess I'm just ignorant.

[Killer Cyborg]

I thought that was for 1st edition conversions, but if not... then I guess I'm just ignorant.

They cover both, at least by the time the 5th printing rolled around.
The FIRST printing was probably just 1st edition, though, as you say.

[Eashamahel]

How about this though, base line, do you LIKE the +2 APM concept, or would you rather it not apply to Rifts Earth? As a GM, I feel that there are already enough actions going on, and it would shorten Rifts somewhat cumbersome combat system to a degree? What do the rest of you think?

I think that the addition of the TAFL screwed up Rifts in so many ways that the game STILL hasn't recovered.
Animals went from being as fast as an average human, to being 1/2 as fast.
Juicers went from being 2x as fast as an average human to being 50% faster.
Mages went from being able to cast spells as fast as an average soldier could shoot (i.e., 2 per melee) to being only able to cast 1 spell per 2 shots (though RUE patched that), AND it meant that spells could be interrupted, which screwed mages over pretty hard.
Vampires went from being 2x as fast as normal humans to being 50% faster. Ditto power armor pilots.
Ditto robots.
Randomly rolled monsters from the RMB only have 1d4 attacks on average, which means that AT BEST, they're as fast as a normal (trained) human.
A lot of the balance that was originally in Rifts got screwed up, or at least seriously changed.

All in all, Kevin would have been better off just leaving the number of attacks alone, and shortening the melee rounds.
That would have made the number of attacks per melee more realistic, but wouldn't have screwed so much stuff up.

I will agree with this endlessly, and the end result is just clunkiness. If the average character started out with 2 a round, and a mage could cast 2 spells, it's all good. Then the average character gets 4, and mage gets 2, then the average gets 4, mage gets 4. When end up back at the beginning, but have to do 2x as much before rolling initiative again.

[Hot Rod]

So I wonder why RUE Dragons with combat training only get 3 APM while H-H Basic has 4?

[Akashic Soldier]

So I wonder why RUE Dragons with combat training only get 3 APM while H-H Basic has 4?

Because they gain more attacks as they level?
I can't say honestly, maybe its just a game balance thing?; the dragon is stronger and has a wider range of abilities, so they act slightly less often?

[Hot Rod]

[quote="Akashic Soldier"
Because they gain more attacks as they level?
I can't say honestly, maybe its just a game balance thing?; the dragon is stronger and has a wider range of abilities, so they act slightly less often?[/quote]

So they get less actions to do anything because they are stronger and have a wider variety of (potential) actions?

It's obviously a game balance issue, but hardly necessary IMO (and since when has palladium even given lip service to balance?). Fewer actions than your opponent = dead dragon in a one on one comparison (comparing to a L1 Crazy, Juicer, Borg, GB pilot, Samas Pilot, Operator w/vehicle, etc... all of which have bigger attacks than most (if not all) L1 Dragons)

Yet the dragon is considered on par with Cosmic knights in power?

Dragons get 6-8 skills total (including their Native language, & Literacy) talk about a one trick pony...

I'd really like to see them re-done & updated. D&G is particularly dated despite the Great Horned dragon being Iconic to Palladium.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Adult dragons are considered on par with cosmo knights. I never heard anyone compare a baby dragon to a CK.

[Eashamahel]

A hatchling, without any magic, actually has pretty much no chance at fighting a Samas, just not fast enough, doesn't have the range.

Running some new to RPG players in a game right now, and one is playing a dragon. She is hiliarious, because she reacts just like the dragon would. Your guns can't hurt me, that knife isn't magical, you're just in a suit of armour, an enhanced human is still just a human, ect, ect.

I would assume that the hatchling is supposed to have 5 attacks base (as it used to have Basic +1 attack, so one more than an average person) and it is a misprint (I know, I know, shocking), or is supposed to have 3 attacks + breath weapon each melee.

[Hotrod]

The RUE Dragons all have one or two bonus attacks in addition to H-H: Dragon, so they all start with 4-5 attacks. It might be useful to consider adding such bonuses to other, older dragon species to balance them with RUE.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I will point out that HtH dragon tabel is marked as "Optional", which means, presumably, that the default is still HtH basic+1.

[Hotrod]

Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

On a similar note, can a dragon use HtH: Dragon when in human form?

Can dragons use their breath powers in human (or housecat) form?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

nothing indicates they cannot.

On a similar note, can a dragon use HtH: Dragon when in human form?

Sure, after all they can use all their powers and retain their full mass while in human form

Can dragons use their breath powers in human (or housecat) form?

It explicitly says they can right in their metamorphasis section.

[Eashamahel]

Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

nothing indicates they cannot.

I am intrigued. Every other OCC/RCC I have seen has a Hand to Hand option listed in their skills, and then any options available for upgrading (Ie 'Hand to Hand: Basic, may be upgraded to Elite for the cost of...'). Do the dragons in R:UE have that written in?

[Giant2005]

Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

Just like anyone else, they can select Basic as a secondary skill however no other hand to hand form is available to them. There are exceptions such as the Chiang Ku or the Japanese Dragons that can have more advanced forms.
They could also learn such skills via other means, such as being taught by a Rogue Scholar or partaking in the Military World Themepark classes in Phase World.

On a similar note, can a dragon use HtH: Dragon when in human form?

Nothing says they can't, however considering their combat moves use things like tail swipes and attacks that a human form could not emulate, I think the intention is that the combat option is supposed to be Dragon form only.

Can dragons use their breath powers in human (or housecat) form?

Yes.
Regardless of their appearance, they are still a Dragon and have all of the physical capabilities of the Dragon.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

nothing indicates they cannot.

I am intrigued. Every other OCC/RCC I have seen has a Hand to Hand option listed in their skills, and then any options available for upgrading (Ie 'Hand to Hand: Basic, may be upgraded to Elite for the cost of...'). Do the dragons in R:UE have that written in?

There's at least one case of a dragon in ninjas and superspys actually INVENTING a martial arts style, used by humans, and then there's the Shikomo-Mi dragon in rifts japan that gets martial arts powers naturally.