Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

[kaid]

In any setting that involves frequent dimensional anomalies and rifts in the fabric of time and space it is not so much flitting about the world as it is getting sucked in kicking and screaming.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you can't consider any world book good if it dosn't tie in some way back to north america i'm sorry but I find that to be a very bad way to structure world books

Your findings are incorrect.
When you're writing a game that has a key setting, as Rifts does, then you flesh out that key setting FIRST, and fill in the superflua LATER.

In a world like rifts, there should be isolated places that have little to nothing to do with the "main' area (North america), and there should be books devoted to those places.

I agree that there should be such places.
But I have absolutely NO idea why you think that there should be entire books devoted to those places when the main area STILL isn't fleshed out.

It fleshes out the game, gives you interesting foreign places to discover or be discovered by, and lets you set campaigns with completely different tones than what you find in north america.

I don't need interesting foreign places to discover, not when the interesting domestic places are practically blank.

One thing that you and I both left out, though, is that Rifts Japan- as isolated as it is- does not exist in a vacuum.
It's a part of the world of Rifts Earth that Palladium fleshed out specifically.

True, they do have some contact with china and korea and are aware of the new navy and other pacific factions. (I don't recall off the top of my head if they're aware of the lemurians or not)

That's not what I was talking about.
The second sentence there explains what clarifies the first.
And the next bit clarifies further.

Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but it IS a bad thing given the fact that we still don't know what Chi-Town is like.
Rifts: Chi-Town SHOULD have been WB2. Or 3. Or freakin' FOUR, although that would have been putting it a bit late in the game.
But it wasn't any of those, or any of the next couple dozen World Books, or any of the Source books, or any of the generic books.
It simply never, ever, happened.

So basically "This book is bad because I wanted a different book entirely about something else, and they made this instead".

In addition to ALL THE OTHER REASONS THAT I'VE STATED, yes.
But it's not like I'm picking my preferences randomly; this isn't arbitrary.
They're publishing books on unrelated isolated settings before they're publishing books on the main setting for the game.
That'd be like if they put out an expansion pack to Risk before actually finishing making the board for the main game.

The fact that there isn't a chi-town book has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of rifts japan as a book.

No, the lack of quality in Japan speaks pretty well for itself, as I have already described.
This is just an additional complaint, that is independent of quality of that book.

actually, the republic of japan has exactly the same kind of fortified multi-layered mega-cities the coalition states has, so they fit in perfectly there.

Exactly the same kind of... un-mapped, undescribed, vague, "if you want to set an adventure there, you have to write it yourself" kind of mega-cities?
Somehow, that's not really addressing the problem, but rather compounding it.

however, while I agree that the flavor text indicates that they are based on coalition mega cities, they fit in just fine with any high-tech city anywhere on rifts earth. Triax, Republic of Japan, Merctown, the silver republic, the australian arcologies. there are high tech city states all over the world.

And WHICH of these cities are detailed anywhere...?
I could have an easier time setting a campaign in a Xiticix Hive than I would in any one of those cities you refer to, because I know more about the layout, defenses, local government, and civilian population, than I do about any of the supposedly major cities anywhere on the planet.

now again, these are all over except for the coalition where they started, which is true. but I don't see how it's valid to judge a book by the fact it's not another book. are you mad at twilight because it's not Dune? are you mad at Dune because it's not sherlock holmes? the logic here escapes me.

Are you under the impression that Dune, Sherlock Holmes, and Twilight are all part of the same setting?

(Okay, there's Juarez. But that's not a multi-level city, nor the kind of high-tech environment that a City Rat was built for. That's like trying to play Case or Hiro Protagonist in Mos Eisley- you CAN do it... but it'll be a bit of a stretch.)

your better off with kingsdale and merctown, I think.

Not really.
Juarez is better fleshed out, as far as I can tell.

and by that logic, Atlantis as a setting ranks pretty far down on the list of useful books. Sure it has a lot of neat toys and a few interesting classes, and you can run into minions anywhere in the megaverse, but the fact is atlantis itself isn't a place i'd ever want to set a game in. the only stories you can tell there are "being a slave" and "being a slave trying to escape". it's completely one note.

Not true.
You can have visitors, you can have revolutionaries, you can have spies, you can have Gladiators... there's all kinds of interesting stuff you can do with Atlantis.

Hell, as I've said before, if Rifts Japan had been a DIMENSION BOOK, I wouldn't have anywhere near as much outrage about it. It's far, far more likely that my characters in North America might stumble through a rift and end up in a completely different dimension than that they'd ever go to Japan.

Uh, random rifts can lead to other places on Rifts earth just as easially to another dimension.

Only if they're not really random.
There's an infinity of dimensions out there, and only one Rifts Earth.
So the odds of any one rift ending up back on Rifts Earth are 1 in Infinity.
Or, if you prefer, you can go by continent, and say that there are 7 in Infinity, which nets out the same.
Or you can go by nation, and say that the odds are "Hundreds in Infinity, which still nets out the same.
Or you can go with towns, and say that the odds are "Thousands in Infinity"... but guess what?
That STILL ends up the same.
The odds of an inter-dimensional portal leading back to your own dimension, to your own planet, are negligible.
Or, at least, they should be.

For that matter, it kind of defeats the purpose of inter-dimensional portals leading to other places in your own dimension.

I've been in lots of games where random rifts were used to move us around to wherever the GM felt like setting the adventure that month.

I'll bet.
But "commonly done" is not the same as "properly done."
If it were, then people outrunning explosions on foot would be the most proper thing ever in a movie.
Well, right up there with cars exploding at the slightest provocation or impact.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey KC, maybe you should rename this thread "Killer Cyborg's Eternal Rifts Japan Debate".
Can't believe it's still going strong since 2005!

I wish that I could say that I was astonished that it got resurrected... but I'm not.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If you can't consider any world book good if it dosn't tie in some way back to north america i'm sorry but I find that to be a very bad way to structure world books

Your findings are incorrect.
When you're writing a game that has a key setting, as Rifts does, then you flesh out that key setting FIRST, and fill in the superflua LATER.

I suppose we disagree on how superflous things like japan or russia actually are. to me, for a setting like rifts, having multiple areas fleshed out where you can have different flavored and themed games is more important than fully fleshing out the CS.

In a world like rifts, there should be isolated places that have little to nothing to do with the "main' area (North america), and there should be books devoted to those places.

I agree that there should be such places.
But I have absolutely NO idea why you think that there should be entire books devoted to those places when the main area STILL isn't fleshed out.

I suppose i'm not sure what exactly you want fleshed out about the CS that hasn't already been. they only thing they havn't given us is a map and I wouldn't use it even if they did.

It fleshes out the game, gives you interesting foreign places to discover or be discovered by, and lets you set campaigns with completely different tones than what you find in north america.

I don't need interesting foreign places to discover, not when the interesting domestic places are practically blank.

And I don't need all of the domestic places fleshed out when there's a whole world to get out and explore

more seriously, I think north america is TOO fleshed out. I like a game to give me a great setting and theme, some starting points and most importantly a lot of blank canvas to work with. the more north america is "fleshed out", the less blank canvas I have to work with, and the harder it gets to actually design a game for it.

a fleshed out setting is like a bell curve. at first, the more and more details and fleshing out you get goes up and up...but after a certain point, it reaches it's peak, and more details begin to slide down and actually detract from how useful the setting as a whole is. I feel a game NEEDS blank, undefined areas where GM's can plop down their own cities and nations without contradicting established cannon, and that's been getting harder and harder to do in north america.

None of that addresses the fact that the coalition megacities are undefined, but as I said, they've given us everything but the maps as far as I can tell.

One thing that you and I both left out, though, is that Rifts Japan- as isolated as it is- does not exist in a vacuum.
It's a part of the world of Rifts Earth that Palladium fleshed out specifically.

True, they do have some contact with china and korea and are aware of the new navy and other pacific factions. (I don't recall off the top of my head if they're aware of the lemurians or not)

That's not what I was talking about.
The second sentence there explains what clarifies the first.
And the next bit clarifies further.

Huh? "It's a part of the world of Rifts Earth that Palladium fleshed out specifically.". okay. yes. that's true. And?

Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but it IS a bad thing given the fact that we still don't know what Chi-Town is like.
Rifts: Chi-Town SHOULD have been WB2. Or 3. Or freakin' FOUR, although that would have been putting it a bit late in the game.
But it wasn't any of those, or any of the next couple dozen World Books, or any of the Source books, or any of the generic books.
It simply never, ever, happened.

So basically "This book is bad because I wanted a different book entirely about something else, and they made this instead".

In addition to ALL THE OTHER REASONS THAT I'VE STATED, yes.

i'm focusing on the reason that baffles me. if another reason for disliking something makes sense, i'm not going to ask about it.

But it's not like I'm picking my preferences randomly; this isn't arbitrary.
They're publishing books on unrelated isolated settings before they're publishing books on the main setting for the game.
That'd be like if they put out an expansion pack to Risk before actually finishing making the board for the main game.

I can see how that's a mark aginst the company, but not those actual settings.

The fact that there isn't a chi-town book has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of rifts japan as a book.

No, the lack of quality in Japan speaks pretty well for itself, as I have already described.
This is just an additional complaint, that is independent of quality of that book.

is there a page in particular where you go into detail on those other reasons? i've been slowly making my way through the backlog of this, but 12 pages is a lot to sift through.

Exactly the same kind of... un-mapped, undescribed, vague, "if you want to set an adventure there, you have to write it yourself" kind of mega-cities?
Somehow, that's not really addressing the problem, but rather compounding it.

the fact that it's unmapped and vauge is a strength, not a weakness. the more defined a city is, the less able I am to design a game for it.

And WHICH of these cities are detailed anywhere...?
I could have an easier time setting a campaign in a Xiticix Hive than I would in any one of those cities you refer to, because I know more about the layout, defenses, local government, and civilian population, than I do about any of the supposedly major cities anywhere on the planet.

It seems our thought processes for running a game are inverted. I come up with a goverment, population, layout, and defences first, then try to figure out where on rifts earth to best place it. the more defined a place is, the harder it is to adjust my premade vision to fit. if it's TOO defined, I become unable to run a game based there at all, because i'd have to change so much i'd loose the origional vision.

now again, these are all over except for the coalition where they started, which is true. but I don't see how it's valid to judge a book by the fact it's not another book. are you mad at twilight because it's not Dune? are you mad at Dune because it's not sherlock holmes? the logic here escapes me.

Are you under the impression that Dune, Sherlock Holmes, and Twilight are all part of the same setting?

No. but rifts japan and the coalition states are isolated from each-other enough I consider them distinct entities.

(Okay, there's Juarez. But that's not a multi-level city, nor the kind of high-tech environment that a City Rat was built for. That's like trying to play Case or Hiro Protagonist in Mos Eisley- you CAN do it... but it'll be a bit of a stretch.)

your better off with kingsdale and merctown, I think.

Not really.
Juarez is better fleshed out, as far as I can tell.

I know, I played a game set in it (I can't RUN a premade city like Juarez, ever, but I can play in it just fine). but as the game went on, the GM began scrapping more and more of the premade buildings and street layout in favor of his own visions.

and if it gets to the point the GM has to start mentally bulldozing and rezoning a setting like a derranged SimCity mayor, it's not a very good setting.

and by that logic, Atlantis as a setting ranks pretty far down on the list of useful books. Sure it has a lot of neat toys and a few interesting classes, and you can run into minions anywhere in the megaverse, but the fact is atlantis itself isn't a place i'd ever want to set a game in. the only stories you can tell there are "being a slave" and "being a slave trying to escape". it's completely one note.

Not true.
You can have visitors, you can have revolutionaries, you can have spies, you can have Gladiators... there's all kinds of interesting stuff you can do with Atlantis.

visitors by definition wouldn't be set IN atlantis, it'd just be a stop on a larger campagin. gladiators are slaves, just better treated than most. Revolutionaries are slaves trying to topple rather than escape. Spys I'll grant I didn't think of, but i've yet to find a group where everyone could play a spy without blowing their cover or getting bored. different permutations, but the same themes. I perfer settings with potential for many different themes, not just variations on the same two or three.

Uh, random rifts can lead to other places on Rifts earth just as easially to another dimension.[/quote]

Only if they're not really random.
There's an infinity of dimensions out there, and only one Rifts Earth.
So the odds of any one rift ending up back on Rifts Earth are 1 in Infinity.
Or, if you prefer, you can go by continent, and say that there are 7 in Infinity, which nets out the same.
Or you can go by nation, and say that the odds are "Hundreds in Infinity, which still nets out the same.
Or you can go with towns, and say that the odds are "Thousands in Infinity"... but guess what?
That STILL ends up the same.
The odds of an inter-dimensional portal leading back to your own dimension, to your own planet, are negligible.
Or, at least, they should be.

For that matter, it kind of defeats the purpose of inter-dimensional portals leading to other places in your own dimension.

by that logic, 99.9999% of all random rifts should lead into the vaccume of space, making going into one a death sentance. even if your in an enviromental suit you have no way to get home.

I've been in lots of games where random rifts were used to move us around to wherever the GM felt like setting the adventure that month.

I'll bet.
But "commonly done" is not the same as "properly done."
If it were, then people outrunning explosions on foot would be the most proper thing ever in a movie.
Well, right up there with cars exploding at the slightest provocation or impact.

[/quote]

a properly done random rift, as I said, would lead you into space. that's not much fun though.

[Alrik Vas]

Um...wasn't Japan consumed in volcanoes and all that? I remember the Japan book says something about three cities being scooped up by some sort of dimensional or time travel bunk while the holocost happened, then they got plopped back down when it was over. That's why they have golden age tech, but the survivors outside the cities went back to traditional ways because they could fight the oni hoard with those weapons?

Honestly, how would Erin Tarn know Tokyo was back, and a mighty megalopolis, if everything else around it was volcanic glass, trees and demons? She never would have gotten close enogh even if she had come there...somehow...

[Prysus]

Unfortunately for Prisus (and you), I said "non-north america related book. you defined the utility of those books in terms of "how they relate to north america".

Greetings and Salutations. Ah, my mistake. I read that question fine, but see, I made the mistake of believing you when right before that you said ...

by that logic you dislike any world book not in north america? I'm not accusing, i'm genuinely trying to figure out your criteria.

Hence I explained non-North America books, as per the original sentiment. I now see your claims being genuine were false. After all, the second question shows a firmer understanding than this one claims.

is there a page in particular where you go into detail on those other reasons? i've been slowly making my way through the backlog of this, but 12 pages is a lot to sift through.

I'm not sure if this is another "genuine" claim, but I'm stupid enough to answer anyways because I have a compulsion to actually try and help ...

Spoiler:

There's this summary (which you responded to in the first place, so almost impossible for you to NOT know) ...

I probably go over it at great length in this thread somewhere (or some wheres), but to sum up my complaints:
- Inconsistency.
- Publishing a world book on the opposite end of the planet from where the action is (i.e., North America), when Chi-Town still didn't (and doesn't) have a world book.
- Cyber-Cliches
- One of the things that attracted me to Rifts in the first place was the removal of Japan as a factor.
- Bizarre stuff, like references to Japan having Tech-Ninjas and Techno-Wizards in 1400s Japan.
- The -10 rule.
- And probably some other stuff that I don't remember.

Then this is on Page 3 (it addresses some consistency and the application thereof, including cyber-cliches) ...

KC,

Ok, the following are givens.

1) Japan was, originally, viewed as a destroyed ruin of broken islands.
2) Japan is now different since WB8:Japan arrived.
3) You don't like the changes introduced by WB8, feeling the prevoius was superior.

And . . .

I eagerly await the product of your imagination describing your set up in Japan.

In my game world, Japan on Rifts Earth is a pretty quiet place that's almost entirly devoid of MDC capabilities and MDC threats.
Other than a few fishing villages, it's wilderness.

Frankly, that's how I think most of Rifts Earth should be... low (or zero) population, low-tech, low-powered.
What's the point of having an apocalypse if every nation on the planet rebuilds itself, and there are cities everywhere?

The Japan book has some decent stuff in it, but none of it is worth unmaking Kev's decision not to include Japan in the big picture of Rifts Earth. Every other futuristic cyberpunk-esque game out there had Japan as a huge power... usually with people in America using "Nu-Yen" or something as currency.
Having Japan simply no longer be a viable power in the world was a refreshing choice. Realistic too, considering how badly the island would have been hit in the apocalypse.

"But that's boring!" you might say....
So?
Not every corner of the planet has to be teeming with excitement.
A good chunk of the fun of the original game was that you could boldly go places where no human had set foot in hundreds of years... you could explore, colonize, whatever...

So I have only really used the Japan book to update The Foot Clan to fit the Rifts setting, and had The Foot located primarily in North America. I used them in my campaign quite a bit, and to good effect.

Other than that, I'd say that Rifts Japan would make for a pretty good Dimension Book. Instead of a high-tech city getting rifted from Rifts Earth to the future of Rifts Earth, why not just have it land in another dimension and start colonizing that world?
That would have been one heck of a lot more interesting, and it would have fit with the original intention of Japan being destroyed.
And it would even be easier to get to for characters in North America... it's easier to wander through a random rift and end up in another dimension than it is to travel to the other side of the planet.

Also on page 3 (which goes more into the North America part which we've discussed a fair bit already) ...

You don't need to have the whole earth unpopulated... just don't have all of it populated.
I have no problem with the NGR and a few other bastions of high-tech humanity that hold out here and there, but a lot of places should be devoid of human life either because nobody's moved back there yet or because the land was rendered inhospitable.

As for places to go... My group ran nearly 15 years almost exclusively in North America. There is so much do see and do there that you could run a nearly infinite number of campaigns without leaving the continent. Add in Mexico, Atlantis, and the NGR, and there's more than plenty of stuff to do... if the writers would flesh out the existing stuff instead of constantly adding new cities.

More on Page 3, and more consistency ...

As for Palladium, the world of Rifts was originally supposed to be mostly wilderness. It's still supposed to be that way, it's just that the writers seem to forget that or ignore it in favor of their really kewl ideas.

They have the right to do what they want, and I have the right to complain about it.
Which should go without saying.

On Page 4, just a reminder of the actual point of this thread (and about 90% of the debate) ...

The topic is this:
Kevin Siembieda originally envisioned Japan has having been destroyed and turned into a quiet chain of wilderness islands.
The Rifts Japan book is a definite change from that original version of things.
That's all.

And it's rather puzzling to me why anybody would claim otherwise. Whether or not you like Rifts Japan, it's obviously not what KS originally had in mind. If you like it, then it's a good change. If you don't like it, then it's a bad change.
But it's still a change.

More about cliches on Page 7 ...

For example, I personally think that the Japan book should never have been written. I think that having a significant lack of Japan is something that made Rifts Earth unique in futuristic quasi-cyberpunk settings. I got sick to death of cyber-ninjas back when Robocop III came out, and Street Samurai became a fast cliche after Shadowrun and other cyberpunk games got ahold of the idea.

A relevent little rant on Page 7 ...

And if you're asking why I personally care what his original vision is, that's easy.

Because I LOVE the world of Rifts as it was originally presented.
Unfortunately, the writers keep changing things.
Whether or not KS approves of it is irrelevent... the fact that George Lucas approved Episodes I-III does not mean that they are worthy prequels.

When Rifts first came out, things were original. Vampires in Mexico, bugmen to the north, dinosaurs in Florida, etc.
But after a bit, the quality and originality went sharply downhill.
Every nation (most of which didn't need to be covered in the first place) got a book full of stereotypes for that area.
England got knights, South America got Conquistadors, Canada got Mounties, and (of course) Japan got cyber-ninjas.

And it still bugs me that they spent the effort on writing a book about a place that was destroyed. There were (and are) plenty of places mentioned by Erin Tarn in the main book as being populated and important in the world that STILL don't have worldbooks... I've been waiting for over a decade for Madhaven (now covered, thank you), Dinosaur Swamps (Thanks, Todd Yoho!), Shaedo, and a dozen other places in the main book.
Heck, Chi-Town is STILL a huge blank spot (although the Burbs are getting covered), and it's the most significant place in north America!

So it bugged me (and still does) that Palladium went out of its way to detail some place that was supposed to no longer exist (and that is on the other side of the planet from the action), in order to toss in a bunch of mega-cliches... when all the places that I (and others) have been looking forward to for YEARS went unaddressed and ignored.

But that's all discussion for another thread.
Start one up about the quality of the Rifts Japan book, if you like...

He sums it up again (with two of the posts I have quoted above) on page 8.

More on consistency and mentions the TW pre-Rifts stuff on Page 9 ...

Well, it just so happens that I bought a copy of Rifts Japan a while back, to help out Palladium, and for this kind of occasion.

We know that in the main book, Tarn went to Japan, and saw nothing but a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.

Did Rifts: Japan stick to that concept?

I don't think so, but maybe I have some of the info wrong- I haven't given the book a thorough read lately, and am currently flipping through to refresh my memory on what's there.

The New Empire, which is the rebuilt Japan, and which does not seem to include any of the cities that rifted in around 87 PA, has (Japan, p. 11):
-A total population of 6.8 million people.
-1.2 million in the main city, Kyoto.
-Cities with an average population of 1d6x100,000
-Towns with populations of 1d6x1000
-Villages with populations of 2d6x100
-"Exploded into power around 1 PA!" (Japan, p. 12)
-Have samurai that "represent the omnipresent military" as well as the law.

The capital city, Kyoto, has a 1,000' Millenium Tree, which helps the locals "fend off the oni and other supernatural horrors that plague the island."

So we're looking at a "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands" that has nearly 7 million people in one region, with a large-scale feudal society complete with entire cities and towns, a society that has thrived for over 70 years longer than the CS has even existed, and an omnipresent military, and that has Millenium Tree, and that is plagued by supernatural horrors.
I can't see that description working together with what's actually there.

Also, there is The Zone, where the oni live.
Japan,p. 24
"The few human villages that exist are enslaved by vile supernatural forces that prey on the helpless humans at their leisure. Even the well-trained and equipped warriors of the Republic are at a disadvantage in the areas where large bands of oni and kappa are in control."
Basically, the entire area of The Zone is made up of tribes of supernatural creatures vying for power and dominance, some of the tribes being the equivalent of small armies.
Not exactly quiet.

Japan, p. 27
Place seems to have quite a few ley lines, for an unremarkable area of wilderness islands.

Oh, and here's another gem: The TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus (p. 37).
IIRC, Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to have been invented in North America (though I cannot currently find the reference). In any case, it's supposed to be relatively rare.
So this quiet backwater has TW items... and Tarn doesn't think it's noteworthy.
Moreover, they have the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus, which has this passage in its description:
When the first European travelers arrived in Japan, they brought muskets and arequebuses... which greatly impressed the islanders. Japan was manufacturing copies of those weapons in a matter of years.
Japanese alchemists, eta techno-wizards and tech ninja became fascinated with the concept of firearms. They tried to replicate the effect using magic, and succeeded in creating an equivalent weapon by binding fire elementals to metal replicas of European weapons; this may have been one of the first techno-wizard weapons ever created! During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan. They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Apparently, Pre-Rifts, and pre-European-contact Japan, had technowizards, alchemists, and tech ninjas, and were able to make working SDC TW weapons.
You would think that Tarn might see at least one of those popular TW weapons, ask a few questions about it, and realize that it might have be interesting to her friends back in Lazlo, instead of shrugging, saying, "this sure is a quiet backwater," and moving on with her life.
Yeah, yeah... I agree that it's not definite that she would have necessarily seen one of these things, but the existence of popular techno-wizardry alone should have logically a) been noticed, and b) been mentioned.
This is a chick that mentions rumors of supernatural creatures and magic... and somehow all this stuff in Japan escaped her attention?

Not to mention the RUNE SWORDS. Granted, they're super-rare and priceless... but there are probably more in Japan than in North America. Might be something she'd hear about and/or notice.

Hell, I'll cut this short.
All in all, I see pretty much no chance in hell that Erin Tarn the famous explorer and Scholar would show up in the islands of Japan, and either miss or dismiss all the demons, mystic warriors, magic weapon, large cities, large population of humans and other species, and a 1,000' tall magic tree.

Read over Tarn's descriptions of other areas.
She notes that the technology in France is equal to early 20th century pre-industrial, and that the population is about 4 million humans and 2 million non-humans.
She notes that England has a population of maybe 400k people with another 400k d-bees, scattered about in tiny villages, with the largest having a population of maybe 3k people.
She notes that the population and tech in Spain is about the same as France, only without as many ley lines.

But with Japan, she notes nothing but that it is a small cluster of wilderness islands.
Their low technology would not be a reason for them to be ignored- it sounds about the same as France and Spain.
The fact that they live mostly in villages would not be a reason for them to be ignored- she notes that most of Britain lives in villages, even though they're smaller than those in Japan.

Basically, she notes stuff worth mentioning.
And a thriving, ancient feudal empire with its own millenium tree, with techno-wizardry, with rune weapons, and with a population greater than pretty much anything in Europe other than the NGR + allies... that's something that she would have noticed, and would have made some kind of mention of.

Page 9 again ...

If I were to sum up Palladium's chief tragic failing, it would be that they don't seem to understand the power of what they print, that how they describe the game in one section affects the rest of the game.
Like how the lack of description of "boring" SDC stuff in the game leads players and later writers to assume that that stuff isn't really as common as MDC stuff.
Like how changing a rule here and a rule there can have drastic long-term consequences.
Which is why what started off as a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting and system has evolved into something that many people have abandoned as absurd, and that puts off many potential new customers.

Actually, at this point, I'm rather bored. That should be some of the highlights though (not counting the silly debate if the concept changed from the RMB or not).

more seriously, I think north america is TOO fleshed out. I like a game to give me a great setting and theme, some starting points and most importantly a lot of blank canvas to work with. the more north america is "fleshed out", the less blank canvas I have to work with, and the harder it gets to actually design a game for it.

For note: Fleshing out Chi-Town, Lazlo, and the other already named cities doesn't really destroy the blank canvas. Chi-Town (and other already named cities) is like a blue circle on the canvas. Add detail to it, and the canvas remains the same other than the blue dot (that's already ruined the blank canvas) has been better defined. It in no way ruins the rest of the blank canvas.

In my opinion: If anything, all these world books such as Japan, Russia, and others would ruin the canvas far more. Not that I personally care one way or the other. I don't play Rifts. Heck, I tend to play homebrewed settings in general at this point (because I like a blank canvas, and even that single blue dot can get in the way of the picture I want to draw).

now again, these are all over except for the coalition where they started, which is true. but I don't see how it's valid to judge a book by the fact it's not another book. are you mad at twilight because it's not Dune? are you mad at Dune because it's not sherlock holmes? the logic here escapes me.

Are you under the impression that Dune, Sherlock Holmes, and Twilight are all part of the same setting?

No. but rifts japan and the coalition states are isolated from each-other enough I consider them distinct entities.

From your two analogies, the way I'm seeing this now is ...

Iron Man movies, Captain Amercia movie, and Thor movie (I could throw Hulk in there too, but I haven't seen that last one).

All of them are Marvel (Palladium). Nekira sees them all as separate movies/entities, which they are.

Now Iron Man was the first movie that came out, and Killer Cyborg enjoyed the movie (in this scenario). Coming out with the Avengers can even make the other two movies (Cap and Thor) worth while, as it helps bring everything together. But now (to continue this analogy), I'm going to venture a little further from reality into a hypothetical.

In this scenario, Iron Man comes out, it does well. Yea! Then they come out with Iron Man 2. Yea! Another good movie. Then they come out with Iron Man 3: Captain America. And it's suddenly: "huh????!?!" Sure, Captain America might have been a good movie in its own right, but it's a piece of crap Iron Man movie. Sure, it has Tony's dad, but who the **** cares?! Iron Man 4: Thor?! Don't even get me started on that one. (Again, hypothetical to help convey the concept.)

That's kind of what Palladium did (to some degree). Rifts (at present) is a much bigger concept than just North America. However, they handled it poorly. The Rifts main book, the core book, is focused in North America. This isn't opinion, this is fact. This is why they have how many O.C.C. of just the CS? This is why there's the most detail on North America. This is why the gear is focused on North America. So yes, in many ways, North America is THE Rifts setting, because that's what the main book (the core book, the book you need to play) makes it to be. Now, had Rifts main book not had a central focus on North America, but on a setting in general, it might not come off as bad.

Anyways, again, I personally don't really care. I don't play Rifts, and I just wanted to take a shot at the analogy (I was feeling left out ).

And WHICH of these cities are detailed anywhere...?
I could have an easier time setting a campaign in a Xiticix Hive than I would in any one of those cities you refer to, because I know more about the layout, defenses, local government, and civilian population, than I do about any of the supposedly major cities anywhere on the planet.

Random note: This made me laugh.

All right, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Unfortunately for Prisus (and you), I said "non-north america related book. you defined the utility of those books in terms of "how they relate to north america".

Greetings and Salutations. Ah, my mistake. I read that question fine, but see, I made the mistake of believing you when right before that you said ...

by that logic you dislike any world book not in north america? I'm not accusing, i'm genuinely trying to figure out your criteria.

Hence I explained non-North America books, as per the original sentiment. I now see your claims being genuine were false. After all, the second question shows a firmer understanding than this one claims.[/quote]

they wern't false. I was genuinely trying to figure out what it would take for a non-north-america related book to be good. I already knew from what I had skimmed previously in the thread that he liked books like atlantis, traix, ect, for the effect they had on north america, and so had no need to ask about clarification on something I already knew. Hence the question asked for the non north american related criteria sinse I already knew of the north america utility one.

I'm not sure if this is another "genuine" claim, but I'm stupid enough to answer anyways because I have a compulsion to actually try and help ...

You appear surprisingly bitter about a simple misunderstanding of intention. I tend to type quickly and am often multitasking when i'm posting on the forums, so quite a bit of time i'll phrase a question or reply poorly, or even worse, leave out a word that completely changes the meaning of a sentance because I think faster than I type. slow down. not everyone on the internet is a troll looking to bash someone's opinion for giggles. sometimes people just don't get what seems obvious to others

especially baffling since this

Spoiler:

There's this summary (which you responded to in the first place, so almost impossible for you to NOT know) ...

I probably go over it at great length in this thread somewhere (or some wheres), but to sum up my complaints:
- Inconsistency.
- Publishing a world book on the opposite end of the planet from where the action is (i.e., North America), when Chi-Town still didn't (and doesn't) have a world book.
- Cyber-Cliches
- One of the things that attracted me to Rifts in the first place was the removal of Japan as a factor.
- Bizarre stuff, like references to Japan having Tech-Ninjas and Techno-Wizards in 1400s Japan.
- The -10 rule.
- And probably some other stuff that I don't remember.

Then this is on Page 3 (it addresses some consistency and the application thereof, including cyber-cliches) ...

KC,

Ok, the following are givens.

1) Japan was, originally, viewed as a destroyed ruin of broken islands.
2) Japan is now different since WB8:Japan arrived.
3) You don't like the changes introduced by WB8, feeling the prevoius was superior.

And . . .

I eagerly await the product of your imagination describing your set up in Japan.

In my game world, Japan on Rifts Earth is a pretty quiet place that's almost entirly devoid of MDC capabilities and MDC threats.
Other than a few fishing villages, it's wilderness.

Frankly, that's how I think most of Rifts Earth should be... low (or zero) population, low-tech, low-powered.
What's the point of having an apocalypse if every nation on the planet rebuilds itself, and there are cities everywhere?

The Japan book has some decent stuff in it, but none of it is worth unmaking Kev's decision not to include Japan in the big picture of Rifts Earth. Every other futuristic cyberpunk-esque game out there had Japan as a huge power... usually with people in America using "Nu-Yen" or something as currency.
Having Japan simply no longer be a viable power in the world was a refreshing choice. Realistic too, considering how badly the island would have been hit in the apocalypse.

"But that's boring!" you might say....
So?
Not every corner of the planet has to be teeming with excitement.
A good chunk of the fun of the original game was that you could boldly go places where no human had set foot in hundreds of years... you could explore, colonize, whatever...

So I have only really used the Japan book to update The Foot Clan to fit the Rifts setting, and had The Foot located primarily in North America. I used them in my campaign quite a bit, and to good effect.

Other than that, I'd say that Rifts Japan would make for a pretty good Dimension Book. Instead of a high-tech city getting rifted from Rifts Earth to the future of Rifts Earth, why not just have it land in another dimension and start colonizing that world?
That would have been one heck of a lot more interesting, and it would have fit with the original intention of Japan being destroyed.
And it would even be easier to get to for characters in North America... it's easier to wander through a random rift and end up in another dimension than it is to travel to the other side of the planet.

Also on page 3 (which goes more into the North America part which we've discussed a fair bit already) ...

You don't need to have the whole earth unpopulated... just don't have all of it populated.
I have no problem with the NGR and a few other bastions of high-tech humanity that hold out here and there, but a lot of places should be devoid of human life either because nobody's moved back there yet or because the land was rendered inhospitable.

As for places to go... My group ran nearly 15 years almost exclusively in North America. There is so much do see and do there that you could run a nearly infinite number of campaigns without leaving the continent. Add in Mexico, Atlantis, and the NGR, and there's more than plenty of stuff to do... if the writers would flesh out the existing stuff instead of constantly adding new cities.

More on Page 3, and more consistency ...

As for Palladium, the world of Rifts was originally supposed to be mostly wilderness. It's still supposed to be that way, it's just that the writers seem to forget that or ignore it in favor of their really kewl ideas.

They have the right to do what they want, and I have the right to complain about it.
Which should go without saying.

On Page 4, just a reminder of the actual point of this thread (and about 90% of the debate) ...

The topic is this:
Kevin Siembieda originally envisioned Japan has having been destroyed and turned into a quiet chain of wilderness islands.
The Rifts Japan book is a definite change from that original version of things.
That's all.

And it's rather puzzling to me why anybody would claim otherwise. Whether or not you like Rifts Japan, it's obviously not what KS originally had in mind. If you like it, then it's a good change. If you don't like it, then it's a bad change.
But it's still a change.

More about cliches on Page 7 ...

For example, I personally think that the Japan book should never have been written. I think that having a significant lack of Japan is something that made Rifts Earth unique in futuristic quasi-cyberpunk settings. I got sick to death of cyber-ninjas back when Robocop III came out, and Street Samurai became a fast cliche after Shadowrun and other cyberpunk games got ahold of the idea.

A relevent little rant on Page 7 ...

And if you're asking why I personally care what his original vision is, that's easy.

Because I LOVE the world of Rifts as it was originally presented.
Unfortunately, the writers keep changing things.
Whether or not KS approves of it is irrelevent... the fact that George Lucas approved Episodes I-III does not mean that they are worthy prequels.

When Rifts first came out, things were original. Vampires in Mexico, bugmen to the north, dinosaurs in Florida, etc.
But after a bit, the quality and originality went sharply downhill.
Every nation (most of which didn't need to be covered in the first place) got a book full of stereotypes for that area.
England got knights, South America got Conquistadors, Canada got Mounties, and (of course) Japan got cyber-ninjas.

And it still bugs me that they spent the effort on writing a book about a place that was destroyed. There were (and are) plenty of places mentioned by Erin Tarn in the main book as being populated and important in the world that STILL don't have worldbooks... I've been waiting for over a decade for Madhaven (now covered, thank you), Dinosaur Swamps (Thanks, Todd Yoho!), Shaedo, and a dozen other places in the main book.
Heck, Chi-Town is STILL a huge blank spot (although the Burbs are getting covered), and it's the most significant place in north America!

So it bugged me (and still does) that Palladium went out of its way to detail some place that was supposed to no longer exist (and that is on the other side of the planet from the action), in order to toss in a bunch of mega-cliches... when all the places that I (and others) have been looking forward to for YEARS went unaddressed and ignored.

But that's all discussion for another thread.
Start one up about the quality of the Rifts Japan book, if you like...

He sums it up again (with two of the posts I have quoted above) on page 8.

More on consistency and mentions the TW pre-Rifts stuff on Page 9 ...

Well, it just so happens that I bought a copy of Rifts Japan a while back, to help out Palladium, and for this kind of occasion.

We know that in the main book, Tarn went to Japan, and saw nothing but a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.

Did Rifts: Japan stick to that concept?

I don't think so, but maybe I have some of the info wrong- I haven't given the book a thorough read lately, and am currently flipping through to refresh my memory on what's there.

The New Empire, which is the rebuilt Japan, and which does not seem to include any of the cities that rifted in around 87 PA, has (Japan, p. 11):
-A total population of 6.8 million people.
-1.2 million in the main city, Kyoto.
-Cities with an average population of 1d6x100,000
-Towns with populations of 1d6x1000
-Villages with populations of 2d6x100
-"Exploded into power around 1 PA!" (Japan, p. 12)
-Have samurai that "represent the omnipresent military" as well as the law.

The capital city, Kyoto, has a 1,000' Millenium Tree, which helps the locals "fend off the oni and other supernatural horrors that plague the island."

So we're looking at a "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands" that has nearly 7 million people in one region, with a large-scale feudal society complete with entire cities and towns, a society that has thrived for over 70 years longer than the CS has even existed, and an omnipresent military, and that has Millenium Tree, and that is plagued by supernatural horrors.
I can't see that description working together with what's actually there.

Also, there is The Zone, where the oni live.
Japan,p. 24
"The few human villages that exist are enslaved by vile supernatural forces that prey on the helpless humans at their leisure. Even the well-trained and equipped warriors of the Republic are at a disadvantage in the areas where large bands of oni and kappa are in control."
Basically, the entire area of The Zone is made up of tribes of supernatural creatures vying for power and dominance, some of the tribes being the equivalent of small armies.
Not exactly quiet.

Japan, p. 27
Place seems to have quite a few ley lines, for an unremarkable area of wilderness islands.

Oh, and here's another gem: The TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus (p. 37).
IIRC, Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to have been invented in North America (though I cannot currently find the reference). In any case, it's supposed to be relatively rare.
So this quiet backwater has TW items... and Tarn doesn't think it's noteworthy.
Moreover, they have the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus, which has this passage in its description:
When the first European travelers arrived in Japan, they brought muskets and arequebuses... which greatly impressed the islanders. Japan was manufacturing copies of those weapons in a matter of years.
Japanese alchemists, eta techno-wizards and tech ninja became fascinated with the concept of firearms. They tried to replicate the effect using magic, and succeeded in creating an equivalent weapon by binding fire elementals to metal replicas of European weapons; this may have been one of the first techno-wizard weapons ever created! During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan. They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Apparently, Pre-Rifts, and pre-European-contact Japan, had technowizards, alchemists, and tech ninjas, and were able to make working SDC TW weapons.
You would think that Tarn might see at least one of those popular TW weapons, ask a few questions about it, and realize that it might have be interesting to her friends back in Lazlo, instead of shrugging, saying, "this sure is a quiet backwater," and moving on with her life.
Yeah, yeah... I agree that it's not definite that she would have necessarily seen one of these things, but the existence of popular techno-wizardry alone should have logically a) been noticed, and b) been mentioned.
This is a chick that mentions rumors of supernatural creatures and magic... and somehow all this stuff in Japan escaped her attention?

Not to mention the RUNE SWORDS. Granted, they're super-rare and priceless... but there are probably more in Japan than in North America. Might be something she'd hear about and/or notice.

Hell, I'll cut this short.
All in all, I see pretty much no chance in hell that Erin Tarn the famous explorer and Scholar would show up in the islands of Japan, and either miss or dismiss all the demons, mystic warriors, magic weapon, large cities, large population of humans and other species, and a 1,000' tall magic tree.

Read over Tarn's descriptions of other areas.
She notes that the technology in France is equal to early 20th century pre-industrial, and that the population is about 4 million humans and 2 million non-humans.
She notes that England has a population of maybe 400k people with another 400k d-bees, scattered about in tiny villages, with the largest having a population of maybe 3k people.
She notes that the population and tech in Spain is about the same as France, only without as many ley lines.

But with Japan, she notes nothing but that it is a small cluster of wilderness islands.
Their low technology would not be a reason for them to be ignored- it sounds about the same as France and Spain.
The fact that they live mostly in villages would not be a reason for them to be ignored- she notes that most of Britain lives in villages, even though they're smaller than those in Japan.

Basically, she notes stuff worth mentioning.
And a thriving, ancient feudal empire with its own millenium tree, with techno-wizardry, with rune weapons, and with a population greater than pretty much anything in Europe other than the NGR + allies... that's something that she would have noticed, and would have made some kind of mention of.

Page 9 again ...

If I were to sum up Palladium's chief tragic failing, it would be that they don't seem to understand the power of what they print, that how they describe the game in one section affects the rest of the game.
Like how the lack of description of "boring" SDC stuff in the game leads players and later writers to assume that that stuff isn't really as common as MDC stuff.
Like how changing a rule here and a rule there can have drastic long-term consequences.
Which is why what started off as a fairly reasonable post-apocalyptic game setting and system has evolved into something that many people have abandoned as absurd, and that puts off many potential new customers.

Actually, at this point, I'm rather bored. That should be some of the highlights though (not counting the silly debate if the concept changed from the RMB or not).

is actually astonishingly helpful and saved me quite a bit of trouble digging through the first half of this. Thanks

more seriously, I think north america is TOO fleshed out. I like a game to give me a great setting and theme, some starting points and most importantly a lot of blank canvas to work with. the more north america is "fleshed out", the less blank canvas I have to work with, and the harder it gets to actually design a game for it.

For note: Fleshing out Chi-Town, Lazlo, and the other already named cities doesn't really destroy the blank canvas. Chi-Town (and other already named cities) is like a blue circle on the canvas. Add detail to it, and the canvas remains the same other than the blue dot (that's already ruined the blank canvas) has been better defined. It in no way ruins the rest of the blank canvas.

Ah, but once they actually release Chi-Town worldbook, I can never really run a game there again, sinse my vision of chi-town will undoubtably be incompatible with what whatever palladium puts out. hence, a chi-town book would destroy any chance of ever using chi-town in a game I run. so long as it's a blank canvas, I'm free to use it.

This is the same reason I was mad to the point of actually shouting at my monitor when dimensional outbreak mapped out phase world. It's one of my favorite RPG cities of all time, and now it's nothing at all how I wanted it. I can't use what's in that book.

In my opinion: If anything, all these world books such as Japan, Russia, and others would ruin the canvas far more. Not that I personally care one way or the other. I don't play Rifts. Heck, I tend to play homebrewed settings in general at this point (because I like a blank canvas, and even that single blue dot can get in the way of the picture I want to draw).

It's my earlier analogy of the bell curve. I need SOME fleshing out to give me a starting point, and for a while more fleshing out gives me more cool ideas and places to riff off of. but there is a point where the curve heads down again and more detail make it harder and harder to use.

From your two analogies, the way I'm seeing this now is ...

Iron Man movies, Captain Amercia movie, and Thor movie (I could throw Hulk in there too, but I haven't seen that last one).

All of them are Marvel (Palladium). Nekira sees them all as separate movies/entities, which they are.

Now Iron Man was the first movie that came out, and Killer Cyborg enjoyed the movie (in this scenario). Coming out with the Avengers can even make the other two movies (Cap and Thor) worth while, as it helps bring everything together. But now (to continue this analogy), I'm going to venture a little further from reality into a hypothetical.

In this scenario, Iron Man comes out, it does well. Yea! Then they come out with Iron Man 2. Yea! Another good movie. Then they come out with Iron Man 3: Captain America. And it's suddenly: "huh????!?!" Sure, Captain America might have been a good movie in its own right, but it's a piece of crap Iron Man movie. Sure, it has Tony's dad, but who the **** cares?! Iron Man 4: Thor?! Don't even get me started on that one. (Again, hypothetical to help convey the concept.)

That's kind of what Palladium did (to some degree). Rifts (at present) is a much bigger concept than just North America. However, they handled it poorly. The Rifts main book, the core book, is focused in North America. This isn't opinion, this is fact. This is why they have how many O.C.C. of just the CS? This is why there's the most detail on North America. This is why the gear is focused on North America. So yes, in many ways, North America is THE Rifts setting, because that's what the main book (the core book, the book you need to play) makes it to be. Now, had Rifts main book not had a central focus on North America, but on a setting in general, it might not come off as bad.

I think you hit it spot on here. to me it'd be like (and I havn't seen ANY of the recent superhero movies, i should note), if marvel came out with Iron Man I, then Iron Man 2, ended iron man 2 on a huge cliffhanger, then went on to make the captian america, thor, ect. movies and don't get around to making Iron man 3 to resolve the plot there.

from my perspective, KC would be the Iron Man fan furious that the story isn't finished, while i'm going "Okay yea it is kinda rude but that shouldn't detract from your enjoyment of the captian america movie at all"

And WHICH of these cities are detailed anywhere...?
I could have an easier time setting a campaign in a Xiticix Hive than I would in any one of those cities you refer to, because I know more about the layout, defenses, local government, and civilian population, than I do about any of the supposedly major cities anywhere on the planet.

Random note: This made me laugh.

All right, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.[/justify]

Made me laugh too.

[Prysus]

they wern't false. I was genuinely trying to figure out what it would take for a non-north-america related book to be good. I already knew from what I had skimmed previously in the thread that he liked books like atlantis, traix, ect, for the effect they had on north america, and so had no need to ask about clarification on something I already knew. Hence the question asked for the non north american related criteria sinse I already knew of the north america utility one.

I tend to type quickly and am often multitasking when i'm posting on the forums, so quite a bit of time i'll phrase a question or reply poorly, or even worse, leave out a word that completely changes the meaning of a sentance because I think faster than I type.

Greetings and Salutations. I just had a net hiccup and lost everything I typed, so I'm going to keep this brief. Long story short: I hadn't even considered that you left out a word from the first question. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt (and my first instinct reading the question was it felt like a trick/trap, but I'm paranoid by nature), and the thought that you accidently left out a word (which changed the meaning feel) just never crossed my mind (so I couldn't give any benefit because I didn't think of it). So when I answered (giving the initial benefit), the response felt like it was confirming the trick/trap. Not justifying, just explaining. My apologies, and no hard feelings on my end.

especially baffling since this

is actually astonishingly helpful and saved me quite a bit of trouble digging through the first half of this. Thanks

Not that baffling, and glad I could help. Believe it or not, I'll always try my best to help. Regardless of personal feelings (because personal feelings have no place in an intellectual debate) or mistrust (even if it is a trap, someone else reading my genuinely need that help), I do my best to help and inform. I wouldn't come here for any other reasons. I know that the misunderstanding has been explained, but when I did the research we hadn't gotten that far yet.

Ah, but once they actually release Chi-Town worldbook, I can never really run a game there again, sinse my vision of chi-town will undoubtably be incompatible with what whatever palladium puts out. hence, a chi-town book would destroy any chance of ever using chi-town in a game I run. so long as it's a blank canvas, I'm free to use it.

This is the same reason I was mad to the point of actually shouting at my monitor when dimensional outbreak mapped out phase world. It's one of my favorite RPG cities of all time, and now it's nothing at all how I wanted it. I can't use what's in that book.

It's my earlier analogy of the bell curve. I need SOME fleshing out to give me a starting point, and for a while more fleshing out gives me more cool ideas and places to riff off of. but there is a point where the curve heads down again and more detail make it harder and harder to use.

Okay, okay, okay, I think I follow you now. I saw your earlier analogy of the bell curve, but it had a different meaning/interpretation for me. I think I see where we differ though.

For you, you have a whole stack of canvases. Painting the canvas blue or yellow (maybe even a few colors) gives each a flavor, but no details on any of them. So when Chi-Town is painted, you now have one less canvas to use.

For me, I see it more like one BIG canvas. My canvas is more of a world map, and Chi-Town is just one dot. No matter how much detail is put into that dot, it doesn't change the rest of the canvas. Even dots such as Lazlo, New Lazlo, and others don't change that. No matter how much detail are on those dots, I still have a whole lot of open canvas. Meanwhile, for me on my world canvas, filling in details to Russia and Japan have limited me. Everytime another piece of the world is filled, my canvas gets smaller and smaller.

I think you hit it spot on here.

Cool, glad to hear it. Now let's just see if Killer Cyborg agrees.

and I havn't seen ANY of the recent superhero movies, i should note

Darn, being a RPG forum I figured I had good odds that people would've seen them. At least you got the analogy.

All right, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Nekira Sudacne]

[justify]

they wern't false. I was genuinely trying to figure out what it would take for a non-north-america related book to be good. I already knew from what I had skimmed previously in the thread that he liked books like atlantis, traix, ect, for the effect they had on north america, and so had no need to ask about clarification on something I already knew. Hence the question asked for the non north american related criteria sinse I already knew of the north america utility one.

I tend to type quickly and am often multitasking when i'm posting on the forums, so quite a bit of time i'll phrase a question or reply poorly, or even worse, leave out a word that completely changes the meaning of a sentance because I think faster than I type.

Greetings and Salutations. I just had a net hiccup and lost everything I typed, so I'm going to keep this brief. Long story short: I hadn't even considered that you left out a word from the first question. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt (and my first instinct reading the question was it felt like a trick/trap, but I'm paranoid by nature), and the thought that you accidently left out a word (which changed the meaning feel) just never crossed my mind (so I couldn't give any benefit because I didn't think of it). So when I answered (giving the initial benefit), the response felt like it was confirming the trick/trap. Not justifying, just explaining. My apologies, and no hard feelings on my end.

It's okay. misunderstandings happen. I try to take them in stride.

It's my earlier analogy of the bell curve. I need SOME fleshing out to give me a starting point, and for a while more fleshing out gives me more cool ideas and places to riff off of. but there is a point where the curve heads down again and more detail make it harder and harder to use.

Okay, okay, okay, I think I follow you now. I saw your earlier analogy of the bell curve, but it had a different meaning/interpretation for me. I think I see where we differ though.

For you, you have a whole stack of canvases. Painting the canvas blue or yellow (maybe even a few colors) gives each a flavor, but no details on any of them. So when Chi-Town is painted, you now have one less canvas to use.[/quote]

Pretty much this. I don't mind a LITTLE more detail than that. I mean, I'm fine with some cities/towns being defined, but only so many.

For me, I see it more like one BIG canvas. My canvas is more of a world map, and Chi-Town is just one dot. No matter how much detail is put into that dot, it doesn't change the rest of the canvas. Even dots such as Lazlo, New Lazlo, and others don't change that. No matter how much detail are on those dots, I still have a whole lot of open canvas. Meanwhile, for me on my world canvas, filling in details to Russia and Japan have limited me. Everytime another piece of the world is filled, my canvas gets smaller and smaller.

I can understand that though

[Killer Cyborg]

If you can't consider any world book good if it dosn't tie in some way back to north america i'm sorry but I find that to be a very bad way to structure world books

Your findings are incorrect.
When you're writing a game that has a key setting, as Rifts does, then you flesh out that key setting FIRST, and fill in the superflua LATER.

I suppose we disagree on how superflous things like japan or russia actually are. to me, for a setting like rifts, having multiple areas fleshed out where you can have different flavored and themed games is more important than fully fleshing out the CS.

Why?
To me, that's putting multiple settings into one game, when the first setting is incomplete.
As far as I can tell, Rifts Japan could just as easily have been written up as a separate RPG, with its own core book- because it's that isolated from the main setting of Rifts.
So I don't see how that could be important to the game of Rifts, any more than Splicers (which could have just as easily been a pocket dimension or city/territory on Rifts Earth) is important to Rifts.

I have absolutely NO idea why you think that there should be entire books devoted to those places when the main area STILL isn't fleshed out.

I suppose i'm not sure what exactly you want fleshed out about the CS that hasn't already been. they only thing they havn't given us is a map and I wouldn't use it even if they did.

Okay, I'll ask you a few questions about CS cities. Only use information from the books, not information that you've made up yourself:
1. What is the average population?
2. What is the most common form of city government?
3. Is this the only form of city government, or are there others? What kinds?
4. How many access points are there to each city?
5. Are the walled cities domed, or are they open to the sky?
6. When cities are referred to as having "levels," does this mean that the cities are set up like giant buildings, where each floor is a neighborhood complete with its own buildings, and the next floor as a ceiling?
OR are the cities more conventional in construction, with normal blocks and buildings, but the buildings are taller, and the higher levels of each building comprise the different "levels" of the city?
Or something else entirely?
7. Do they have phones? Pay phones? Cell phones? How common are each?
8. Do they have phone books?
9. What are the computers like in CS cities?
10. How common is it for a city-dweller to own a computer? What kind(s)?
11. What are the most common forms of transportation in CS cities? (Cars? Busses? Hover-cars? Hover-busses? Mono-rails? Tubes? Jetpacks?)
12. If there is mass transit, how much does it cost?
13. Are there book stores? If so, what are they like?
14. Are there libraries? If so, what are they like?
15. Are there schools? If so, what are they like?
16. Are people expected to pay for their own doctors, or is there universal health care of some kind?
17. Are there churches? If so, what are they like?
18. Are there stores in the CS cities? If so, how do their prices compare to the black market prices? What do they sell?
19. Is there television? State-owned, independent, or both?
20. What kinds of foods are popular?
21. What kinds of music are popular?
22. Are there ambulances? What are the EMTs like? What kind of gear do they have?
23. Are there fire-fighters? What are they like? How do they interact with the ISS and the military? What kind of gear do they have?
24. Are there gangs? How many? What kind? How pervasive are they, just in the lower levels, or have they infiltrated some of the upper levels as well (or been sponsored by them)?
25. Is there organized crime? What kind? How pervasive is it?

(That enough for now?)

more seriously, I think north america is TOO fleshed out. I like a game to give me a great setting and theme, some starting points and most importantly a lot of blank canvas to work with. the more north america is "fleshed out", the less blank canvas I have to work with, and the harder it gets to actually design a game for it.

a fleshed out setting is like a bell curve. at first, the more and more details and fleshing out you get goes up and up...but after a certain point, it reaches it's peak, and more details begin to slide down and actually detract from how useful the setting as a whole is. I feel a game NEEDS blank, undefined areas where GM's can plop down their own cities and nations without contradicting established cannon, and that's been getting harder and harder to do in north america.

That's a good argument for leaving Japan blank.
Not a good argument for leaving key adventure zones blank.

Huh? "It's a part of the world of Rifts Earth that Palladium fleshed out specifically.". okay. yes. that's true. And?

And the rest of the stuff I said, which you chopped up and addressed separately.

But it's not like I'm picking my preferences randomly; this isn't arbitrary.
They're publishing books on unrelated isolated settings before they're publishing books on the main setting for the game.
That'd be like if they put out an expansion pack to Risk before actually finishing making the board for the main game.

I can see how that's a mark aginst the company, but not those actual settings.

I count "It should have never existed in the first place" as a mark against stuff, in a lot of cases.
This is one of them.

Exactly the same kind of... un-mapped, undescribed, vague, "if you want to set an adventure there, you have to write it yourself" kind of mega-cities?
Somehow, that's not really addressing the problem, but rather compounding it.

the fact that it's unmapped and vauge is a strength, not a weakness. the more defined a city is, the less able I am to design a game for it.[/quote]

That's you.
For me, the less defined it is, the less I'm able to design a game for it... without a lot of work.

Moreover, it's a matter of compatibility between different game groups.
If we each design our own game worlds, that might be okay for us individually... but when we get together to talk about Rifts, we're not talking about the same thing.

And WHICH of these cities are detailed anywhere...?
I could have an easier time setting a campaign in a Xiticix Hive than I would in any one of those cities you refer to, because I know more about the layout, defenses, local government, and civilian population, than I do about any of the supposedly major cities anywhere on the planet.

It seems our thought processes for running a game are inverted. I come up with a goverment, population, layout, and defences first, then try to figure out where on rifts earth to best place it. the more defined a place is, the harder it is to adjust my premade vision to fit. if it's TOO defined, I become unable to run a game based there at all, because i'd have to change so much i'd lose the origional vision.

That's great for making up your own cities.
Not so much for describing existing cities, because you're the only one who will have that picture in your head.
If we're making up our own settings, we might as well just make up our own settings and be done with it, instead of using our time and talent to spackle in gaping holes in the official game world.

Are you under the impression that Dune, Sherlock Holmes, and Twilight are all part of the same setting?

No. but rifts japan and the coalition states are isolated from each-other enough I consider them distinct entities.

Then, once again, that would seem to run counter to the notion that the latter in any way needs or calls for the former.
If it's effectively a separate game setting, then there's no reason to put it in the same game.

Juarez is better fleshed out, as far as I can tell.

I know, I played a game set in it (I can't RUN a premade city like Juarez, ever, but I can play in it just fine). but as the game went on, the GM began scrapping more and more of the premade buildings and street layout in favor of his own visions.

and if it gets to the point the GM has to start mentally bulldozing and rezoning a setting like a derranged SimCity mayor, it's not a very good setting.

Since I've scrapped the entire Rifts Japan setting, and rezoned it as the group of empty islands it originally was, I guess that means it's not a very good setting either.

and by that logic, Atlantis as a setting ranks pretty far down on the list of useful books. Sure it has a lot of neat toys and a few interesting classes, and you can run into minions anywhere in the megaverse, but the fact is atlantis itself isn't a place i'd ever want to set a game in. the only stories you can tell there are "being a slave" and "being a slave trying to escape". it's completely one note.

Not true.
You can have visitors, you can have revolutionaries, you can have spies, you can have Gladiators... there's all kinds of interesting stuff you can do with Atlantis.

visitors by definition wouldn't be set IN atlantis, it'd just be a stop on a larger campagin.[/quote]

Not really. It could be a stand-alone adventure, or a mini-campaign, or a campaign that starts off with them landing on shore, and lasts for as long as they're visiting there... which turns out to be years.

gladiators are slaves, just better treated than most.

That depends on the kind of gladiator, really.

Revolutionaries are slaves trying to topple rather than escape.

Nothing about being a revolutionary means that you're a slave.

Spys I'll grant I didn't think of, but i've yet to find a group where everyone could play a spy without blowing their cover or getting bored.

I've never had a problem with it.

Uh, random rifts can lead to other places on Rifts earth just as easially to another dimension.

Only if they're not really random.
There's an infinity of dimensions out there, and only one Rifts Earth.
So the odds of any one rift ending up back on Rifts Earth are 1 in Infinity.
Or, if you prefer, you can go by continent, and say that there are 7 in Infinity, which nets out the same.
Or you can go by nation, and say that the odds are "Hundreds in Infinity, which still nets out the same.
Or you can go with towns, and say that the odds are "Thousands in Infinity"... but guess what?
That STILL ends up the same.
The odds of an inter-dimensional portal leading back to your own dimension, to your own planet, are negligible.
Or, at least, they should be.

For that matter, it kind of defeats the purpose of inter-dimensional portals leading to other places in your own dimension.

by that logic, 99.9999% of all random rifts should lead into the vaccume of space, making going into one a death sentance. even if your in an enviromental suit you have no way to get home.

Well, that depends on a lot of factors. Like how long the rift stays open. What race/OCC you are. What kind of powers you have access to. Whether there's anybody within SOS range.
And so on.

BUT since random rifts seem to open on nexus points, I don't think that you're entirely correct about the odds there.
While there are ley lines in space, we have no info on how many, or whether there are nexus points in space, etc. etc.
Ley lines in general lore tend to be well-traveled paths between places of power.
If they're well-traveled, there's a pretty good chance that somebody or something will happen along, even if you're in space.

a properly done random rift, as I said, would lead you into space. that's not much fun though.

Having had a number of adventures where that happened, I disagree.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ah, but once they actually release Chi-Town worldbook, I can never really run a game there again, sinse my vision of chi-town will undoubtably be incompatible with what whatever palladium puts out. hence, a chi-town book would destroy any chance of ever using chi-town in a game I run. so long as it's a blank canvas, I'm free to use it.

And that's the difference.
I put off running a Chi-Town campaign until they released the world book on it, because I didn't want to go through the trouble of writing up an entire city that:
a) Didn't fit the vision of the game's creators, even though it was a central location for the setting.
b) Would become obsolete as soon as a book was released on the subject.

Granted, I didn't think it'd take them over 23 years to release the book; if I'd known, I'd have just made up my own stuff.
Or, possibly, seeing all the crap they released that I'll never, ever, ever, ever have a need to use (like Japan), I'd have quit playing and found a new game that fleshes out the main setting before getting distracted with places that I neither need nor care about.

[Jesterzzn]

Okay, I'll ask you a few questions about CS cities. Only use information from the books, not information that you've made up yourself:
1. What is the average population?
2. What is the most common form of city government?
3. Is this the only form of city government, or are there others? What kinds?
4. How many access points are there to each city?
5. Are the walled cities domed, or are they open to the sky?
6. When cities are referred to as having "levels," does this mean that the cities are set up like giant buildings, where each floor is a neighborhood complete with its own buildings, and the next floor as a ceiling?
OR are the cities more conventional in construction, with normal blocks and buildings, but the buildings are taller, and the higher levels of each building comprise the different "levels" of the city?
Or something else entirely?
7. Do they have phones? Pay phones? Cell phones? How common are each?
8. Do they have phone books?
9. What are the computers like in CS cities?
10. How common is it for a city-dweller to own a computer? What kind(s)?
11. What are the most common forms of transportation in CS cities? (Cars? Busses? Hover-cars? Hover-busses? Mono-rails? Tubes? Jetpacks?)
12. If there is mass transit, how much does it cost?
13. Are there book stores? If so, what are they like?
14. Are there libraries? If so, what are they like?
15. Are there schools? If so, what are they like?
16. Are people expected to pay for their own doctors, or is there universal health care of some kind?
17. Are there churches? If so, what are they like?
18. Are there stores in the CS cities? If so, how do their prices compare to the black market prices? What do they sell?
19. Is there television? State-owned, independent, or both?
20. What kinds of foods are popular?
21. What kinds of music are popular?
22. Are there ambulances? What are the EMTs like? What kind of gear do they have?
23. Are there fire-fighters? What are they like? How do they interact with the ISS and the military? What kind of gear do they have?
24. Are there gangs? How many? What kind? How pervasive are they, just in the lower levels, or have they infiltrated some of the upper levels as well (or been sponsored by them)?
25. Is there organized crime? What kind? How pervasive is it?

(That enough for now?)

I think I could answer a few of those questions, even more if I can use art as a source.

[Killer Cyborg]

Quite possibly, but art isn't a valid source.
Or rather, it often is inaccurate, and we have no way of knowing in this case whether it's accurate or not, because no real level of description has been given.

But heck, it's not like I can't come up with a lot more questions, if THESE get answered.

[Alrik Vas]

As far as Chi Town is concerned, i'm pretty sure they cover a general idea of what the different levels contain, what their functions are and who lives on them in the RMB and RUE (could be copy/pasted, but I remember reading about it, could also be in CWC).

If that's not the limit of information you are looking for, then yeah, i can see the complaint.

By the way, can anyone answer my question about japan from earlier? i don't have the book in front of me here at work.

Um...wasn't Japan consumed in volcanoes and all that? I remember the Japan book says something about three cities being scooped up by some sort of dimensional or time travel bunk while the holocost happened, then they got plopped back down when it was over. That's why they have golden age tech, but the survivors outside the cities went back to traditional ways because they could fight the oni hoard with those weapons?

Honestly, how would Erin Tarn know Tokyo was back, and a mighty megalopolis, if everything else around it was volcanic glass, trees and demons? She never would have gotten close enogh even if she had come there...somehow...

Just in case scrolling is a pain.

[Killer Cyborg]

As far as Chi Town is concerned, i'm pretty sure they cover a general idea of what the different levels contain, what their functions are and who lives on them in the RMB and RUE (could be copy/pasted, but I remember reading about it, could also be in CWC).

If that's not the limit of information you are looking for, then yeah, i can see the complaint.

By the way, can anyone answer my question about japan from earlier? i don't have the book in front of me here at work.

Um...wasn't Japan consumed in volcanoes and all that? I remember the Japan book says something about three cities being scooped up by some sort of dimensional or time travel bunk while the holocost happened, then they got plopped back down when it was over. That's why they have golden age tech, but the survivors outside the cities went back to traditional ways because they could fight the oni hoard with those weapons?

Honestly, how would Erin Tarn know Tokyo was back, and a mighty megalopolis, if everything else around it was volcanic glass, trees and demons? She never would have gotten close enogh even if she had come there...somehow...

Just in case scrolling is a pain.

Prysus quoted a lot of the things that I said earlier in this thread, and one of them addresses this:

We know that in the main book, Tarn went to Japan, and saw nothing but a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.

Did Rifts: Japan stick to that concept?

I don't think so, but maybe I have some of the info wrong- I haven't given the book a thorough read lately, and am currently flipping through to refresh my memory on what's there.

The New Empire, which is the rebuilt Japan, and which does not seem to include any of the cities that rifted in around 87 PA, has (Japan, p. 11):
-A total population of 6.8 million people.
-1.2 million in the main city, Kyoto.
-Cities with an average population of 1d6x100,000
-Towns with populations of 1d6x1000
-Villages with populations of 2d6x100
-"Exploded into power around 1 PA!" (Japan, p. 12)
-Have samurai that "represent the omnipresent military" as well as the law.

The capital city, Kyoto, has a 1,000' Millenium Tree, which helps the locals "fend off the oni and other supernatural horrors that plague the island."

So we're looking at a "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands" that has nearly 7 million people in one region, with a large-scale feudal society complete with entire cities and towns, a society that has thrived for over 70 years longer than the CS has even existed, and an omnipresent military, and that has Millenium Tree, and that is plagued by supernatural horrors.
I can't see that description working together with what's actually there.

Also, there is The Zone, where the oni live.
Japan,p. 24
"The few human villages that exist are enslaved by vile supernatural forces that prey on the helpless humans at their leisure. Even the well-trained and equipped warriors of the Republic are at a disadvantage in the areas where large bands of oni and kappa are in control."
Basically, the entire area of The Zone is made up of tribes of supernatural creatures vying for power and dominance, some of the tribes being the equivalent of small armies.
Not exactly quiet.

Japan, p. 27
Place seems to have quite a few ley lines, for an unremarkable area of wilderness islands.

Oh, and here's another gem: The TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus (p. 37).
IIRC, Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to have been invented in North America (though I cannot currently find the reference). In any case, it's supposed to be relatively rare.
So this quiet backwater has TW items... and Tarn doesn't think it's noteworthy.
Moreover, they have the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus, which has this passage in its description:
When the first European travelers arrived in Japan, they brought muskets and arequebuses... which greatly impressed the islanders. Japan was manufacturing copies of those weapons in a matter of years.
Japanese alchemists, eta techno-wizards and tech ninja became fascinated with the concept of firearms. They tried to replicate the effect using magic, and succeeded in creating an equivalent weapon by binding fire elementals to metal replicas of European weapons; this may have been one of the first techno-wizard weapons ever created! During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan. They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.
Apparently, Pre-Rifts, and pre-European-contact Japan, had technowizards, alchemists, and tech ninjas, and were able to make working SDC TW weapons.
You would think that Tarn might see at least one of those popular TW weapons, ask a few questions about it, and realize that it might have be interesting to her friends back in Lazlo, instead of shrugging, saying, "this sure is a quiet backwater," and moving on with her life.
Yeah, yeah... I agree that it's not definite that she would have necessarily seen one of these things, but the existence of popular techno-wizardry alone should have logically a) been noticed, and b) been mentioned.
This is a chick that mentions rumors of supernatural creatures and magic... and somehow all this stuff in Japan escaped her attention?

Not to mention the RUNE SWORDS. Granted, they're super-rare and priceless... but there are probably more in Japan than in North America. Might be something she'd hear about and/or notice.

Hell, I'll cut this short.
All in all, I see pretty much no chance in hell that Erin Tarn the famous explorer and Scholar would show up in the islands of Japan, and either miss or dismiss all the demons, mystic warriors, magic weapon, large cities, large population of humans and other species, and a 1,000' tall magic tree.

Read over Tarn's descriptions of other areas.
She notes that the technology in France is equal to early 20th century pre-industrial, and that the population is about 4 million humans and 2 million non-humans.
She notes that England has a population of maybe 400k people with another 400k d-bees, scattered about in tiny villages, with the largest having a population of maybe 3k people.
She notes that the population and tech in Spain is about the same as France, only without as many ley lines.

But with Japan, she notes nothing but that it is a small cluster of wilderness islands.
Their low technology would not be a reason for them to be ignored- it sounds about the same as France and Spain.
The fact that they live mostly in villages would not be a reason for them to be ignored- she notes that most of Britain lives in villages, even though they're smaller than those in Japan.

Basically, she notes stuff worth mentioning.
And a thriving, ancient feudal empire with its own millenium tree, with techno-wizardry, with rune weapons, and with a population greater than pretty much anything in Europe other than the NGR + allies... that's something that she would have noticed, and would have made some kind of mention of.

[keir451]

Howdy All! Let me start off by saying I agree with KC AND Nekira. On the one hand I liked Rifts Japan but I also feel very frustrated that Chi-town has not be detailed.
I do agree with Nekira that sometimes havin section of the settng described after I've gone through the effort of detailing it myself and not having it match up is frustrating (Lemuria for example) I either adapt my setting to the one printed or discard the new setting entirely, whichever is easier for me.
Yes, War Campaign gives us an inkling of what CS culture is like, but it's only an inkling not really even enough detail to accurately work on.
With all the money and effort Kevin had spent on just Macross 2 and it's series of Deck Plans (yes I know he "outsourced" all that) you'd think that he could have done the same with the CS.
I agree that the artwork can be misleading or inaccurate at times (especially when the freelancers throw in their interpretations) but it IS (unfortuately) the best source we have at this point in time.
I also agree that Techno-Wizardry has gotten out of hand, it was described in the RMB as being a new magic unique to America, yet now EVERYBODY and their brothers have it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I suppose we disagree on how superflous things like japan or russia actually are. to me, for a setting like rifts, having multiple areas fleshed out where you can have different flavored and themed games is more important than fully fleshing out the CS.

Why?
To me, that's putting multiple settings into one game, when the first setting is incomplete.
As far as I can tell, Rifts Japan could just as easily have been written up as a separate RPG, with its own core book- because it's that isolated from the main setting of Rifts.
So I don't see how that could be important to the game of Rifts, any more than Splicers (which could have just as easily been a pocket dimension or city/territory on Rifts Earth) is important to Rifts.

because Rifts is about more than north america. Rifts is about a world gone mad. Specifically, to me, it's that rifts IS such a chaotic world that simply traveling 6000 miles across the ocasion and you may as well be on another planet entirely. Again, it seems like what you consider a weakness I consider a strength. it's that Rifts can support multiple sub-settings on the same world is precicely why I find it so endearing.

Okay, I'll ask you a few questions about CS cities. Only use information from the books, not information that you've made up yourself:

Okay, I really did ask for this one

you got me cold. What I was trying to imply is that a lot of the details you consider lacking I find not precicely superflous, but better if left fluid. things like the exact population, structure of goverment, gates into the city, ect, are best left to individual GM's to decide for themselves.

however, now you have me curious. i'm going to see what questions actually can be answered with only canon material


6. When cities are referred to as having "levels," does this mean that the cities are set up like giant buildings, where each floor is a neighborhood complete with its own buildings, and the next floor as a ceiling?

This is surprisingly answered in the CWC slang section. Page 33 "Lofties". Lofties refer to anyone living on level 23 or higher in mega-cities, or penthouses of normal coalition cities.

this implies that A: the mega cities are litterally leveled, and B: the slang is adapted to refer to penthouse dwellers of skyscrapers in non-mega cities.

2. What is the most common form of city government?

High mayor is the title given to the political leader and manager of CS cities, or of particular levels in mega cities.

3. Is this the only form of city government, or are there others? What kinds?

no hint at any other form of goverment is given. nor details about how to become high mayor, unfortunaly



6. When cities are referred to as having "levels," does this mean that the cities are set up like giant buildings, where each floor is a neighborhood complete with its own buildings, and the next floor as a ceiling? OR are the cities more conventional in construction, with normal blocks and buildings, but the buildings are taller, and the higher levels of each building comprise the different "levels" of the city?
Or something else entirely?

By the text we get from Lone Star City, based on the blurb in the lone star book and a bit more from rifts ultimate, the designs are modular, ment to stack building atop of building in each "level". Lone Star city was designed so a new city block could be placed either beside or atop other city blocks.

19. Is there television? State-owned, independent, or both?

Television is stated to exist, both state owned and independant, however the propaganda department under joseph prosek has final say over everything aired with no freedom of speech.

8. Do they have phone books?

unkown, but they do have local telephone service.

18. Are there stores in the CS cities? If so, how do their prices compare to the black market prices? What do they sell?

Well, the coalition mega cities consider "shopping" to be one of the few legitmate reasons for visiting, and issue time-limited shopping access passes to humans who want to shop there, so clearly they both A: have shops, and B: offer prices good enough that thousands suffer through paranoid megacity entrance protocol for the privlege of shopping there. imagine the TSA run by nazis patting everyone down to go to a strip mall. now imagine people still flocking to get in.

24. Are there gangs? How many? What kind? How pervasive are they, just in the lower levels, or have they infiltrated some of the upper levels as well (or been sponsored by them)?

Well, gangs clearly exist in them given the information under the City Rat OCC, which as you point out is geared almost exclusively to life in the mega cities. however, the "chicago group" is basically the largest black market gang in north america and is based almost entirely in the lofties on the upper levels, which sufficent pull with the ISS and military to more or less own smuggling into the mega cities, to the point they deal in magical artifacts bought and sold by lofties. which says all kinds of things about the lofties in chi-town I shudder to think about.

25. Is there organized crime? What kind? How pervasive is it?

As I said, the Chicago group is the most organized, largest, and wealthiest organized criminal gang in north america, able to smuggle freely into and out of the mega cities and even deal in getting magic, spells, scrolls, and other magic goods into the mega cities with personell infiltrating the highest levels of coalition goverment.


Granted, it's less than a fourth of the questions, but it was fun seeing what tidbits were sprinkled around

more seriously, I think north america is TOO fleshed out. I like a game to give me a great setting and theme, some starting points and most importantly a lot of blank canvas to work with. the more north america is "fleshed out", the less blank canvas I have to work with, and the harder it gets to actually design a game for it.

a fleshed out setting is like a bell curve. at first, the more and more details and fleshing out you get goes up and up...but after a certain point, it reaches it's peak, and more details begin to slide down and actually detract from how useful the setting as a whole is. I feel a game NEEDS blank, undefined areas where GM's can plop down their own cities and nations without contradicting established cannon, and that's been getting harder and harder to do in north america.

That's a good argument for leaving Japan blank.
Not a good argument for leaving key adventure zones blank.

BECAUSE it's a key adventure zone, it's important to leave it mostly blank so GM's are free to do what they want without contradicting it.

Yes, that does mean the game expects GM's to do most of the work on the core areas of the setting. and i'm okay with that--in fact it's what I look for in a game. if i'm running a game, it's because I WANT the work of fleshing out core areas.

but before you say "Then why not just get a completely blank area to do it in", sometimes I do. as I said, a bell curve, I need some information to start, but too much is bad

Huh? "It's a part of the world of Rifts Earth that Palladium fleshed out specifically.". okay. yes. that's true. And?

And the rest of the stuff I said, which you chopped up and addressed separately.

because taken all togeather I couldn't understand your position. breaking it up was an attempt to see if I could figure out the peices and use that to go back and understand the whole.

but I think I have. whereas I WANT major areas left blank so there's no correct version, you consider the lack of a correct version a problem.

I count "It should have never existed in the first place" as a mark against stuff, in a lot of cases.
This is one of them.

I don't consider it a mark aginst something unless something is truely unuseable in any circumstance, not just MY circumstance. Just because Rifts Japan isn't useful to how you run your games, dosn't make it a bad product for making games with. I don't judge by utility to me, I judge by utility in general. I don't like Rifts south america because the style of game it is geared for is useless to how I play Rifts, but I recognise that it has great potential for someone with a different style than me.

That's you.
For me, the less defined it is, the less I'm able to design a game for it... without a lot of work.

as I said, if i'm commited to running a campaign, it's because I WANT to do that work.

Moreover, it's a matter of compatibility between different game groups.
If we each design our own game worlds, that might be okay for us individually... but when we get together to talk about Rifts, we're not talking about the same thing.

This is true, but I consider seeing the differences to be a lot of fun when I play in new groups.

That's great for making up your own cities.
Not so much for describing existing cities, because you're the only one who will have that picture in your head.
If we're making up our own settings, we might as well just make up our own settings and be done with it, instead of using our time and talent to spackle in gaping holes in the official game world.

Because there is a middle ground between "make your own setting from nothing" and "The book completely detailing everything about a city".

we simply occupy different places in that middle ground.

Then, once again, that would seem to run counter to the notion that the latter in any way needs or calls for the former.
If it's effectively a separate game setting, then there's no reason to put it in the same game.

Unless the GM wants them to go to japan or vice versa, in which case it's easy to do so.

Since I've scrapped the entire Rifts Japan setting, and rezoned it as the group of empty islands it originally was, I guess that means it's not a very good setting either.

You havn't said much about why japan sucks as a place to run a game, actually, just a lot of reasons not to have it in your game.

Simple question: do you think you could run a rifts-japan game where the players all make natives. not do you WANT to, do you think you could, and do you think you could make it fun wihtout an excessive amount of work. hypothetically.

Not really. It could be a stand-alone adventure, or a mini-campaign, or a campaign that starts off with them landing on shore, and lasts for as long as they're visiting there... which turns out to be years.

At what point does a visit turn into a stay?

gladiators are slaves, just better treated than most.

That depends on the kind of gladiator, really.

You could be a gladiator that's treated like crap I guess. or as cattle. I'm still not seeing a difference in kind.

This is kind of like the feeling I get when someone talks about cars to me. They can go into all the detail they want, but if you painted a ford, a kia, a GM and a Lambrogini the same color and put a gun to my head, I could not tell you which was which.

Nothing about being a revolutionary means that you're a slave.

The only people in atlantis who arnt' slaves are NPC only races IIRC.

I've never had a problem with it.

Can I play in your group? an all spy campaign sounds fun!

Well, that depends on a lot of factors. Like how long the rift stays open. What race/OCC you are. What kind of powers you have access to. Whether there's anybody within SOS range.
And so on.

If your controlling the rift, it's no longer completely random

BUT since random rifts seem to open on nexus points, I don't think that you're entirely correct about the odds there.
While there are ley lines in space, we have no info on how many, or whether there are nexus points in space, etc. etc.
Ley lines in general lore tend to be well-traveled paths between places of power.
If they're well-traveled, there's a pretty good chance that somebody or something will happen along, even if you're in space.

Rifts OPEN on Nexus points, where do you get that the other end is also a nexus point?

Having had a number of adventures where that happened, I disagree.

Then that's even more improbable than erin tarn forgetting about a flourishing feudal empire. your GM fudged the odds.

[Killer Cyborg]

I suppose we disagree on how superflous things like japan or russia actually are. to me, for a setting like rifts, having multiple areas fleshed out where you can have different flavored and themed games is more important than fully fleshing out the CS.

Why?
To me, that's putting multiple settings into one game, when the first setting is incomplete.
As far as I can tell, Rifts Japan could just as easily have been written up as a separate RPG, with its own core book- because it's that isolated from the main setting of Rifts.
So I don't see how that could be important to the game of Rifts, any more than Splicers (which could have just as easily been a pocket dimension or city/territory on Rifts Earth) is important to Rifts.

because Rifts is about more than north america.

Not judging by the main book.

Rifts is about a world gone mad. Specifically, to me, it's that rifts IS such a chaotic world that simply traveling 6000 miles across the ocasion and you may as well be on another planet entirely. Again, it seems like what you consider a weakness I consider a strength. it's that Rifts can support multiple sub-settings on the same world is precicely why I find it so endearing.

It doesn't support it, though.
As you say, you may as well be on another planet entirely.

more seriously, I think north america is TOO fleshed out. I like a game to give me a great setting and theme, some starting points and most importantly a lot of blank canvas to work with. the more north america is "fleshed out", the less blank canvas I have to work with, and the harder it gets to actually design a game for it.

a fleshed out setting is like a bell curve. at first, the more and more details and fleshing out you get goes up and up...but after a certain point, it reaches it's peak, and more details begin to slide down and actually detract from how useful the setting as a whole is. I feel a game NEEDS blank, undefined areas where GM's can plop down their own cities and nations without contradicting established cannon, and that's been getting harder and harder to do in north america.

That's a good argument for leaving Japan blank.
Not a good argument for leaving key adventure zones blank.

BECAUSE it's a key adventure zone, it's important to leave it mostly blank so GM's are free to do what they want without contradicting it. [/quote]

That makes the opposite of sense.

Yes, that does mean the game expects GM's to do most of the work on the core areas of the setting. and i'm okay with that--in fact it's what I look for in a game. if i'm running a game, it's because I WANT the work of fleshing out core areas.

but before you say "Then why not just get a completely blank area to do it in", sometimes I do. as I said, a bell curve, I need some information to start, but too much is bad

I'd wager that what you're looking for, and what most other role-players are looking for, are very different in this regard.

whereas I WANT major areas left blank so there's no correct version, you consider the lack of a correct version a problem.

Yup.
Because if I wanted to make up the setting myself, I'd just make up my own game entirely.
And because what you describe leads to every group/GM playing their own different game, which means that we can't really interact as well with other Palladium gamers- it fragments the fan base, because we have very few shared experiences. Just look at all the arguments that arise in the forums, and count how many of them ultimately stem from the fact that different players have radically different views of the game and the setting.
And because even with the blank spots, there's STILL the possibility (and, over the long term, a virtual certainty) that Palladium is going to contradict whatever setting you create. By not spelling out how the mega-cities levels are designed, we already have a significant split on how that works, for example.
Kevin has some idea about it in his head, and he works accordingly... but without getting a better idea of what exactly IS in his head, a lot of the time the results don't make much sense to us.
Like the Siege on Tolkeen, for example. Steaming, angry hordes of people are upset that Tolkeen didn't WIN, arguing that the CS's cities are so obviously vulnerable to attacks.
Obviously, Kevin disagrees, or he'd have written something about that happening... but since he hasn't explained what the cities are like, everybody has their own versions, and apparently a LOT of people's versions that they've created to fill the vacuum of description are in conflict with the version that KS has in his head.

Or, for a simpler example, "WHAT!?! After years of playing CS cities as being run by councils of peers... you're telling me there's a High Mayor?! That totally doesn't fit with my vision!!"

I count "It should have never existed in the first place" as a mark against stuff, in a lot of cases.
This is one of them.

I don't consider it a mark aginst something unless something is truely unuseable in any circumstance, not just MY circumstance.

Nothing is completely un-usable in every circumstance.
So that's an impossibly high standard.

That's you.
For me, the less defined it is, the less I'm able to design a game for it... without a lot of work.

as I said, if i'm commited to running a campaign, it's because I WANT to do that work.

With me, it's because I want work... but not the work of inventing entire societies.
At least, not as a default.
And in the cases where I have the time and energy to do that kind level of work, I can do it no matter what the books say.
It's a heck of a lot easier to ignore printed material than it is to write it yourself. That's why books sell in the first place.

That's great for making up your own cities.
Not so much for describing existing cities, because you're the only one who will have that picture in your head.
If we're making up our own settings, we might as well just make up our own settings and be done with it, instead of using our time and talent to spackle in gaping holes in the official game world.

Because there is a middle ground between "make your own setting from nothing" and "The book completely detailing everything about a city".

Yes. But it's a rather half-assed middle-ground, where I'd rather not hang out.

Then, once again, that would seem to run counter to the notion that the latter in any way needs or calls for the former.
If it's effectively a separate game setting, then there's no reason to put it in the same game.

Unless the GM wants them to go to japan or vice versa, in which case it's easy to do so.

No.
Japan is simply coordinates on the map.
If a GM wanted the PCs to go to Japan, that was resolved perfectly well by the RMB:
"You're standing on an empty, grass-covered island. A calm wind is blowing. Nothing much is going on."

What we're talking about is the GM wanting the PCs to go to the setting in the Rifts: Japan book... which could have been set ANYWHERE.
We're talking about the GM wanting to play around with cyber-ninjas and the others stuff in that book.
And nothing about the contents of that book necessitate the setting being on Rifts Earth.
And since it's at least as easy in Rifts to end up on another world- or, more specifically, another game setting- as it is to travel across the globe, there's especially nothing about the setting that requires it to be set on Rifts Earth.

Since I've scrapped the entire Rifts Japan setting, and rezoned it as the group of empty islands it originally was, I guess that means it's not a very good setting either.

You havn't said much about why japan sucks as a place to run a game, actually, just a lot of reasons not to have it in your game.

I've said quite a bit about it, and was quoted on some of the more explanatory points.

Simple question: do you think you could run a rifts-japan game where the players all make natives. not do you WANT to, do you think you could, and do you think you could make it fun wihtout an excessive amount of work. hypothetically.

I could run a Rifts/FATAL game where all the players are natives, and it could be fun without an excessive amount of work.
But that doesn't mean that FATAL is a really spiffy setting, or that the rules are good.

Not really. It could be a stand-alone adventure, or a mini-campaign, or a campaign that starts off with them landing on shore, and lasts for as long as they're visiting there... which turns out to be years.

At what point does a visit turn into a stay?

No definite point. There's a heck of a lot of flexibility, and it's essentially subjective.
There is no meaningful difference between saying, "I visited Japan for a year" and "I stayed in Japan for a year."

gladiators are slaves, just better treated than most.

That depends on the kind of gladiator, really.

You could be a gladiator that's treated like crap I guess. or as cattle. I'm still not seeing a difference in kind. [/quote]

You could be a volunteer.
Hell, you don't even have to be human.

Nothing about being a revolutionary means that you're a slave.

The only people in atlantis who arnt' slaves are NPC only races IIRC.

YDNRC.

I've never had a problem with it.

Can I play in your group? an all spy campaign sounds fun!

If you lived around here, and my group still lived around here, you'd be welcome!

Well, that depends on a lot of factors. Like how long the rift stays open. What race/OCC you are. What kind of powers you have access to. Whether there's anybody within SOS range.
And so on.

If your controlling the rift, it's no longer completely random

Nothing is completely random in any case.
But people still use the word.

BUT since random rifts seem to open on nexus points, I don't think that you're entirely correct about the odds there.
While there are ley lines in space, we have no info on how many, or whether there are nexus points in space, etc. etc.
Ley lines in general lore tend to be well-traveled paths between places of power.
If they're well-traveled, there's a pretty good chance that somebody or something will happen along, even if you're in space.

Rifts OPEN on Nexus points, where do you get that the other end is also a nexus point?

Because, as a rule, they're two-way.
If a Rift opens on one side, it opens on the other side.
And, as you say, they open on Nexus points as a rule.

Having had a number of adventures where that happened, I disagree.

[/quote]
Then that's even more improbable than erin tarn forgetting about a flourishing feudal empire. your GM fudged the odds.[/quote]

What odds?
You don't even know the specifics of what happened.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I suppose we disagree on how superflous things like japan or russia actually are. to me, for a setting like rifts, having multiple areas fleshed out where you can have different flavored and themed games is more important than fully fleshing out the CS.

Why?
To me, that's putting multiple settings into one game, when the first setting is incomplete.
As far as I can tell, Rifts Japan could just as easily have been written up as a separate RPG, with its own core book- because it's that isolated from the main setting of Rifts.
So I don't see how that could be important to the game of Rifts, any more than Splicers (which could have just as easily been a pocket dimension or city/territory on Rifts Earth) is important to Rifts.

because Rifts is about more than north america.

Not judging by the main book.

The setting seems to have evolved sinse then. I will grant that was true in the begining, but sometimes a retcon is for the better or worse, and I think we disagree on which. You think it's worse, I think it's better.

It doesn't support it, though.
As you say, you may as well be on another planet entirely.

Yes, the support for it was added in later, and I loved it. to me it does morph the setting somewhat, less a true post apcoypse and more an Age of Adventure where explorers with guts and luck can find new civilizations and wealth if they're smart enough to keep it.

which is a kind of game I love. Not the ONLY game kind, mind, I do love the true post apocalyptic feel of the old main book. They're both great settings, I just find the newer version to be slightly superior to the old version in most ways, and weaker in others.

I should point out, I hardly approve of all the new material, and I definatly agree that some areas of the world have been fleshed out more than they needed to be. I just count Rifts Japan good enough to be worth it

BECAUSE it's a key adventure zone, it's important to leave it mostly blank so GM's are free to do what they want without contradicting it.

That makes the opposite of sense.
[/quote]

That was horribly phrased yes. I think I can put it better in an answer to another part of your post

Yup.
Because if I wanted to make up the setting myself, I'd just make up my own game entirely.
And because what you describe leads to every group/GM playing their own different game, which means that we can't really interact as well with other Palladium gamers- it fragments the fan base, because we have very few shared experiences. Just look at all the arguments that arise in the forums, and count how many of them ultimately stem from the fact that different players have radically different views of the game and the setting.
And because even with the blank spots, there's STILL the possibility (and, over the long term, a virtual certainty) that Palladium is going to contradict whatever setting you create. By not spelling out how the mega-cities levels are designed, we already have a significant split on how that works, for example.
Kevin has some idea about it in his head, and he works accordingly... but without getting a better idea of what exactly IS in his head, a lot of the time the results don't make much sense to us.
Like the Siege on Tolkeen, for example. Steaming, angry hordes of people are upset that Tolkeen didn't WIN, arguing that the CS's cities are so obviously vulnerable to attacks.
Obviously, Kevin disagrees, or he'd have written something about that happening... but since he hasn't explained what the cities are like, everybody has their own versions, and apparently a LOT of people's versions that they've created to fill the vacuum of description are in conflict with the version that KS has in his head.

Or, for a simpler example, "WHAT!?! After years of playing CS cities as being run by councils of peers... you're telling me there's a High Mayor?! That totally doesn't fit with my vision!!"

I think I more or less get it now. You think it's bad for the community as a whole and not just any specific game. That's a huge detail I wasn't getting (for whatever reason), previously.

What I was trying to say was I find it better for my games if the CS is vauger so I can make them how I want, it's better for MY game, but I will grant it means my CS game will be completely different from everyone elses.

And did you really not catch the High Mayor line before? It sort of jumped out at me while reading CWC. Heck, the high mayors of major cities outrank generals in the chain of command. it's right in the CoC chart.

I don't consider it a mark aginst something unless something is truely unuseable in any circumstance, not just MY circumstance.

Nothing is completely un-usable in every circumstance.
So that's an impossibly high standard.[/quote]

Point. I should have said truely unusable in all but the most rediculous edge cases. like FATAL.

That's you.
For me, the less defined it is, the less I'm able to design a game for it... without a lot of work.

as I said, if i'm commited to running a campaign, it's because I WANT to do that work.

With me, it's because I want work... but not the work of inventing entire societies.
At least, not as a default.
And in the cases where I have the time and energy to do that kind level of work, I can do it no matter what the books say.
It's a heck of a lot easier to ignore printed material than it is to write it yourself. That's why books sell in the first place.

I can get that.

Because there is a middle ground between "make your own setting from nothing" and "The book completely detailing everything about a city".

Yes. But it's a rather half-assed middle-ground, where I'd rather not hang out.[/quote]

Well, different strokes and all that.

Then, once again, that would seem to run counter to the notion that the latter in any way needs or calls for the former.
If it's effectively a separate game setting, then there's no reason to put it in the same game.

Unless the GM wants them to go to japan or vice versa, in which case it's easy to do so.

No.
Japan is simply coordinates on the map.
If a GM wanted the PCs to go to Japan, that was resolved perfectly well by the RMB:
"You're standing on an empty, grass-covered island. A calm wind is blowing. Nothing much is going on."

What we're talking about is the GM wanting the PCs to go to the setting in the Rifts: Japan book... which could have been set ANYWHERE.
We're talking about the GM wanting to play around with cyber-ninjas and the others stuff in that book.
And nothing about the contents of that book necessitate the setting being on Rifts Earth.
And since it's at least as easy in Rifts to end up on another world- or, more specifically, another game setting- as it is to travel across the globe, there's especially nothing about the setting that requires it to be set on Rifts Earth.

You could say the same for half the world books in north america. does the new west have to be in rifts earth? (okay, it shouldn't, IMHO. it's cool but it completely screws with the previous perception for how the wilderness to the west of the cs looks. is that the same kind of complaint you have with Rifts Japan?)

Since I've scrapped the entire Rifts Japan setting, and rezoned it as the group of empty islands it originally was, I guess that means it's not a very good setting either.

You havn't said much about why japan sucks as a place to run a game, actually, just a lot of reasons not to have it in your game.

I've said quite a bit about it, and was quoted on some of the more explanatory points.

Unless I missed something major in the skimming, it all appeared to tie back to "how this is a retconn that dosn't apply to north america". if that wasn't what you intended, or if I missed something, I do apologise, but as I said earlier, I think i'm getting it now (though not when I posted that)

Simple question: do you think you could run a rifts-japan game where the players all make natives. not do you WANT to, do you think you could, and do you think you could make it fun wihtout an excessive amount of work. hypothetically.

I could run a Rifts/FATAL game where all the players are natives, and it could be fun without an excessive amount of work.
But that doesn't mean that FATAL is a really spiffy setting, or that the rules are good.

I find it hard to beleive you can use FATAL without an excessive amount of work. just making a character is an excessive amount of work.

No definite point. There's a heck of a lot of flexibility, and it's essentially subjective.
There is no meaningful difference between saying, "I visited Japan for a year" and "I stayed in Japan for a year."

fair enough

The only people in atlantis who arnt' slaves are NPC only races IIRC.

YDNRC.[/quote]

Apparently I did not

If you lived around here, and my group still lived around here, you'd be welcome!

Just lemme find out where I left the time machine...

Well, that depends on a lot of factors. Like how long the rift stays open. What race/OCC you are. What kind of powers you have access to. Whether there's anybody within SOS range.
And so on.

If your controlling the rift, it's no longer completely random

Nothing is completely random in any case.
But people still use the word.

Well, there is, but you have to get into quantium physics to get true randomness. And I always envisioned Rifts and dimensional travel as a quantum-type effect. granted, that's not supported anywhere in the books i'm aware of.

BUT since random rifts seem to open on nexus points, I don't think that you're entirely correct about the odds there.
While there are ley lines in space, we have no info on how many, or whether there are nexus points in space, etc. etc.
Ley lines in general lore tend to be well-traveled paths between places of power.
If they're well-traveled, there's a pretty good chance that somebody or something will happen along, even if you're in space.

Rifts OPEN on Nexus points, where do you get that the other end is also a nexus point?

Because, as a rule, they're two-way.
If a Rift opens on one side, it opens on the other side.
And, as you say, they open on Nexus points as a rule.

but does it say the other end is also on a nexus? you need a convergance of ley lines to OPEN a rift in the space time continum, but nothing indicated that the rift has to lead to another one. or more specifically, only one end has to be on a nexus is the way I always read it.

What odds?
You don't even know the specifics of what happened.

True, I don't. but if we accept the premise that 99% of the megaverse is boring, uninhabited vaccum millions of miles away from anything interesting....

[Nightmask]

I'm really not seeing the point of all the endless debate regarding Rifts: Japan.

Did the original Rifts RPG book start in North America? Yes, every RPG starts somewhere. Those using Earth often start in North America because their creators are from/in North America (Gamma World is quite centrally located in Indiana and the surrounding states for example).

Does North America have stuff that could use expanding on? Perhaps, but seriously we've tons of books on the setting, with way too many centered around the CS. You'd think the entire planet of Earth was non-existent and the only area that exited was North America given how many books focus on it. It's got plenty of attention, other areas need far more fleshing out than North America does.

Of all the areas on Earth Japan definitely needs more fleshing out, most other areas have at least 2 books devoted to them (West, Spirit West, China I and II, Triax I and II, etc) Japan just the one in spite of how much it really needs at least 2 books.

[keir451]

I'm really not seeing the point of all the endless debate regarding Rifts: Japan.

Did the original Rifts RPG book start in North America? Yes, every RPG starts somewhere. Those using Earth often start in North America because their creators are from/in North America (Gamma World is quite centrally located in Indiana and the surrounding states for example).

Does North America have stuff that could use expanding on? Perhaps, but seriously we've tons of books on the setting, with way too many centered around the CS. You'd think the entire planet of Earth was non-existent and the only area that exited was North America given how many books focus on it. It's got plenty of attention, other areas need far more fleshing out than North America does.

Of all the areas on Earth Japan definitely needs more fleshing out, most other areas have at least 2 books devoted to them (West, Spirit West, China I and II, Triax I and II, etc) Japan just the one in spite of how much it really needs at least 2 books.

While it's certainly true we've got quite a few books already, the fact that the major player in the Rifts realm, the CS, is left as an "unknown" is rather frustrating. KC is right that they needed and still do need a source book or world book that fully details them oer atleast coalates all the scattered info on them. IMO the next world books we need to see are Lazlo and New Lazlo ON TOP OF a CS world book. Remember we didn't get ANY info on Tolkeen until the CS was in the process of razing it to the ground.
I, personally, wouldn't mind a deck plans-style book showing all the various levels of Chi-town as well as showing the layout of Lonestaar and othe cs cities and perhaps even a "generic" CS outpost or base design.

[Tor]

Erin Tarn is a filthy liar, we know this, she misleads humanity and is the consort of shapeshifting reptilian. Let's not bicker amongst ourselves over her silly writings meant to keep us from conquering our earth.