How Do We Get More People To Play Rifts

[Damian Magecraft]

a 25% gain is above the norm for new comers to the hobby regardless of system.
a 25% gain is better than most systems see from experienced players switching systems.
not the best metric to use to shore up your points.

Not really. In my experience, the norm is close to 40-50% of people that try a system will buy the books for that system. For people switching systems, that number is closer to 70%. In almost every group I have ever been a part of, except my current one, all of the group will at least buy a core book. After that, I see at least half buy the books pertinent to their characters. Beyond that, maybe 10% will buy most if not all of the books because they are completionists. But even among completionists, I see very few of them buy more than three or four Palladium books. They just do not like the system enough to buy more than just the core book and maybe one or two that they will use for their characters.

We have had differing experiences then...
From where I stand with 35 years of observation the Hobby retains roughly 5% of those who try it.
and around 85% will never move beyond that game system that drew them in even after being introduced to new systems. (system loyalty is hard to over come).
Of those that look to move to or pick up another system only about 1 in 10 pick up any given system.
and perhaps a mere 5% pick up more than 1 additional system.

[Icefalcon]

still better than a flat out NO that is all to common on the forums. the examples i gave were questions that i needed to answer to use my super. and it forced me to focus on my abilities more. i think more people would play rifts if we argued less, listened to other peoples ideas, not always back up your friend, stop attacking people that are new to the forums and most of all stop saying "In my game" in a sentence directed at people who wouldn't play with you. acceptance breeds unity, unity breeds strength.

and here we see a prime example of the Player knows better than the gm.
that does not just chase players from your system of choice but the hobby as a whole.
It is the GM who has to juggle everything in order to insure everyone (not just you) has fun.
If he says no Powers then that means no powers it is his adventure and setting (yes the company created it but he has modified it) you have agreed to share. If you are not allowed one choice surely in the plethora of choices available there is another you may have fun with? If you cannot say yes then obviously instead of crying that GM X wont let you play Y you move on to a GM that will.

I will agree with Damien here. It is up to the GM to make sure everyone at the table has fun, including himself. If he thinks that super powers would be too much of a headache, then that is what he decides. It is either decide to play something else or go find a GM that is willing to let you play what you want.

[The Beast]

still better than a flat out NO that is all to common on the forums. the examples i gave were questions that i needed to answer to use my super. and it forced me to focus on my abilities more. i think more people would play rifts if we argued less, listened to other peoples ideas, not always back up your friend, stop attacking people that are new to the forums and most of all stop saying "In my game" in a sentence directed at people who wouldn't play with you. acceptance breeds unity, unity breeds strength.

and here we see a prime example of the Player knows better than the gm.
that does not just chase players from your system of choice but the hobby as a whole.
It is the GM who has to juggle everything in order to insure everyone (not just you) has fun.
If he says no Powers then that means no powers it is his adventure and setting (yes the company created it but he has modified it) you have agreed to share. If you are not allowed one choice surely in the plethora of choices available there is another you may have fun with? If you cannot say yes then obviously instead of crying that GM X wont let you play Y you move on to a GM that will.

That's the thing though. There's so few Palladium players that finding a GM that'll let you play those characters is rare. Then you're stuck either looking for a group for a long time, or you're stuck playing a PC that you didn't really want to play.

And that last bit comes with its own headaches for GMs, because now they'd have to work harder to keep that player interested in that PC, or risk them becoming disruptive or leaving.

[Damian Magecraft]

still better than a flat out NO that is all to common on the forums. the examples i gave were questions that i needed to answer to use my super. and it forced me to focus on my abilities more. i think more people would play rifts if we argued less, listened to other peoples ideas, not always back up your friend, stop attacking people that are new to the forums and most of all stop saying "In my game" in a sentence directed at people who wouldn't play with you. acceptance breeds unity, unity breeds strength.

and here we see a prime example of the Player knows better than the gm.
that does not just chase players from your system of choice but the hobby as a whole.
It is the GM who has to juggle everything in order to insure everyone (not just you) has fun.
If he says no Powers then that means no powers it is his adventure and setting (yes the company created it but he has modified it) you have agreed to share. If you are not allowed one choice surely in the plethora of choices available there is another you may have fun with? If you cannot say yes then obviously instead of crying that GM X wont let you play Y you move on to a GM that will.

and as a gm i have never limited anybody elses creativity by allowing them to use any book legal class in a game. varying power levels in a party make for good roleplaying. especially in a game that sells itself on the FALSE premise of allowing you to be anything. the system is sound, the source books great, the players want to have fun, the gm's.....pfffffft. control freaks who destroy the whole basis of the game. at least in heroes unlimited you can actually play whatever you want to. rifts was eh.......and just broke down to trying to justify why to the gm.

The GM limiting the players is not a game selling itself on "false" pretenses. It is a GM exercising his right as the arbitrator of the setting for a given adventure/campaign. You cannot lay that at the feet of the system.

[Icefalcon]

a 25% gain is above the norm for new comers to the hobby regardless of system.
a 25% gain is better than most systems see from experienced players switching systems.
not the best metric to use to shore up your points.

Not really. In my experience, the norm is close to 40-50% of people that try a system will buy the books for that system. For people switching systems, that number is closer to 70%. In almost every group I have ever been a part of, except my current one, all of the group will at least buy a core book. After that, I see at least half buy the books pertinent to their characters. Beyond that, maybe 10% will buy most if not all of the books because they are completionists. But even among completionists, I see very few of them buy more than three or four Palladium books. They just do not like the system enough to buy more than just the core book and maybe one or two that they will use for their characters.

We have had differing experiences then...
From where I stand with 35 years of observation the Hobby retains roughly 5% of those who try it.
and around 85% will never move beyond that game system that drew them in even after being introduced to new systems. (system loyalty is hard to over come).
Of those that look to move to or pick up another system only about 1 in 10 pick up any given system.
and perhaps a mere 5% pick up more than 1 additional system.

Oh, I won't disagree about differing experiences. But keep in mind also, I have never attended cons either. Almost everyone I have ever gamed with was more than the casual observer type. I have only ever experienced two of those over the last 25 years. Almost everyone else was open to multiple systems and genres. Of course, you are right in that there are a few that refuse to play anything other than their favorite system but most of the people I have gamed with have been open to trying new things. Not all of the systems I or other friends have introduced have taken off but not everyone is going to like the same things.

[Icefalcon]

and as a gm i have never limited anybody elses creativity by allowing them to use any book legal class in a game. varying power levels in a party make for good roleplaying. especially in a game that sells itself on the FALSE premise of allowing you to be anything. the system is sound, the source books great, the players want to have fun, the gm's.....pfffffft. control freaks who destroy the whole basis of the game. at least in heroes unlimited you can actually play whatever you want to. rifts was eh.......and just broke down to trying to justify why to the gm.

Hey, be nice to your GM's. It is not easy for most of them to handle various personalities such as the gamers in a leadership capacity. And make no mistake, he is a leader because he is shaping the world that you are going to play in. If some of them cannot handle crossing multiple systems, then maybe you should try offering to run and showing the GM how it can be done handling classes and powers from other games. Maybe then he might be more willing to let you play what you want.

[Damian Magecraft]

still better than a flat out NO that is all to common on the forums. the examples i gave were questions that i needed to answer to use my super. and it forced me to focus on my abilities more. i think more people would play rifts if we argued less, listened to other peoples ideas, not always back up your friend, stop attacking people that are new to the forums and most of all stop saying "In my game" in a sentence directed at people who wouldn't play with you. acceptance breeds unity, unity breeds strength.

and here we see a prime example of the Player knows better than the gm.
that does not just chase players from your system of choice but the hobby as a whole.
It is the GM who has to juggle everything in order to insure everyone (not just you) has fun.
If he says no Powers then that means no powers it is his adventure and setting (yes the company created it but he has modified it) you have agreed to share. If you are not allowed one choice surely in the plethora of choices available there is another you may have fun with? If you cannot say yes then obviously instead of crying that GM X wont let you play Y you move on to a GM that will.

That's the thing though. There's so few Palladium players that finding a GM that'll let you play those characters is rare. Then you're stuck either looking for a group for a long time, or you're stuck playing a PC that you didn't really want to play.

And that last bit comes with its own headaches for GMs, because now they'd have to work harder to keep that player interested in that PC, or risk them becoming disruptive or leaving.

The impression I get here is however we have one person being inflexible. not 10. not 100. not 1000. but 1.
Everyone else is able to work with in the limits the GMs set. Why is this one not?

[Icefalcon]

That's the thing though. There's so few Palladium players that finding a GM that'll let you play those characters is rare. Then you're stuck either looking for a group for a long time, or you're stuck playing a PC that you didn't really want to play.

And that last bit comes with its own headaches for GMs, because now they'd have to work harder to keep that player interested in that PC, or risk them becoming disruptive or leaving.

It is kind of rough on a player if the GM disallows certain classes that the players really want. But in a game such as Rifts, there are literally thousands of things you can play (especially in race class combos), that there should always be something a certain person is willing to play if they cannot be allowed access to their first choice.

[say652]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

[Damian Magecraft]

a 25% gain is above the norm for new comers to the hobby regardless of system.
a 25% gain is better than most systems see from experienced players switching systems.
not the best metric to use to shore up your points.

Not really. In my experience, the norm is close to 40-50% of people that try a system will buy the books for that system. For people switching systems, that number is closer to 70%. In almost every group I have ever been a part of, except my current one, all of the group will at least buy a core book. After that, I see at least half buy the books pertinent to their characters. Beyond that, maybe 10% will buy most if not all of the books because they are completionists. But even among completionists, I see very few of them buy more than three or four Palladium books. They just do not like the system enough to buy more than just the core book and maybe one or two that they will use for their characters.

We have had differing experiences then...
From where I stand with 35 years of observation the Hobby retains roughly 5% of those who try it.
and around 85% will never move beyond that game system that drew them in even after being introduced to new systems. (system loyalty is hard to over come).
Of those that look to move to or pick up another system only about 1 in 10 pick up any given system.
and perhaps a mere 5% pick up more than 1 additional system.

Oh, I won't disagree about differing experiences. But keep in mind also, I have never attended cons either. Almost everyone I have ever gamed with was more than the casual observer type. I have only ever experienced two of those over the last 25 years. Almost everyone else was open to multiple systems and genres. Of course, you are right in that there are a few that refuse to play anything other than their favorite system but most of the people I have gamed with have been open to trying new things. Not all of the systems I or other friends have introduced have taken off but not everyone is going to like the same things.

One thing I have noticed that does cause gamers to look at other systems is settings.
Specifically Licensed ones.
I would never have picked up a FATE system game if not for the Dresden Files.
I would Never have given Unisystem a second glance if not for the Buffyverse games.
But Licensing is a double bladed sword The License has to have a fan base large enough to draw in enough players to justify the cost of the License. (and in RPG land I honestly dont believe there are that many).

[Icefalcon]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

But if agreed to play the game before hand, you already agreed to follow the GM's rules.

[Nightmask]

still better than a flat out NO that is all to common on the forums. the examples i gave were questions that i needed to answer to use my super. and it forced me to focus on my abilities more. i think more people would play rifts if we argued less, listened to other peoples ideas, not always back up your friend, stop attacking people that are new to the forums and most of all stop saying "In my game" in a sentence directed at people who wouldn't play with you. acceptance breeds unity, unity breeds strength.

and here we see a prime example of the Player knows better than the gm.
that does not just chase players from your system of choice but the hobby as a whole.
It is the GM who has to juggle everything in order to insure everyone (not just you) has fun.
If he says no Powers then that means no powers it is his adventure and setting (yes the company created it but he has modified it) you have agreed to share. If you are not allowed one choice surely in the plethora of choices available there is another you may have fun with? If you cannot say yes then obviously instead of crying that GM X wont let you play Y you move on to a GM that will.

I will agree with Damien here. It is up to the GM to make sure everyone at the table has fun, including himself. If he thinks that super powers would be too much of a headache, then that is what he decides. It is either decide to play something else or go find a GM that is willing to let you play what you want.

The problem with that is too often it's just the GM being lazy or displaying a negative bias that doesn't have any real foundation, ending up with the GM being more interested in the only fun being his fun or at a minimum putting his fun way above the players. Given the trouble in finding games 'play something you don't like or don't play at all' is hardly caring about the player having fun.

[Nightmask]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

But if agreed to play the game before hand, you already agreed to follow the GM's rules.

No, you agreed to play the game with the assumption going in that one would be playing by Palladium's rules, not necessarily the rules the GM has decided to add or modified from what the books have written.

[Damian Magecraft]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

There is a compromise available find a class within the limits given that you are allowed to play and still matches your criteria.
There over 600 classes and races available for Rifts if you cant find one that intrigues you then you are not looking very hard.

[Damian Magecraft]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

But if agreed to play the game before hand, you already agreed to follow the GM's rules.

No, you agreed to play the game with the assumption going in that one would be playing by Palladium's rules, not necessarily the rules the GM has decided to add or modified from what the books have written.

So GM's may not restrict class?

According to some players a GM is not allowed to do anything that might have a negative impact on the Players Character.
And apparently any GM that attempts to do so is automatically a bad GM.

Here is tip for those players...
If you encounter multiple GMs consecutively that you have termed "bad GMs"...
It might not be the GM that is the problem.

[Icefalcon]

One thing I have noticed that does cause gamers to look at other systems is settings.
Specifically Licensed ones.
I would never have picked up a FATE system game if not for the Dresden Files.
I would Never have given Unisystem a second glance if not for the Buffyverse games.
But Licensing is a double bladed sword The License has to have a fan base large enough to draw in enough players to justify the cost of the License. (and in RPG land I honestly dont believe there are that many).

Agreed. Settings is a huge factor in looking at other systems. Another is genre. On the one hand, I like sword and sorcery setting (Pathfinder or 3.5 are my preferred) but on the other I like things like Sci-Fi (Rifts, Blue Planet, Human Occupied Landfill), Horror/Survival (Paranoia, Dead Reign, Call of Cathulu, White Wolf), cyberpunk/dark future (Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Dark Heresy) and even licensed games (Star Trek, Star Wars, Dresden, Serenity, Stargate, Buffy, and others). Now, not all of my groups will play all of those systems but I can get enough to get a game going in almost any system. Sometimes my books will sit in a box for years, sometimes they will see constant use. I still find that they were all good enough purchases that I might still get more people to play them with me.

[say652]

no i don't think a gm should restrict classes. its not my job to police someone elses idea of an awesome hero concept. its my job to create a fun and hopefully memorable gaming experience for my group of players. not live out my fantasy of controlling someone elses reality.

[Icefalcon]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

But if agreed to play the game before hand, you already agreed to follow the GM's rules.

No, you agreed to play the game with the assumption going in that one would be playing by Palladium's rules, not necessarily the rules the GM has decided to add or modified from what the books have written.

So if I tell people that I am running a game set in North America and I am limiting the classes to that continent with a few exceptions but on a first come first serve basis, it is my fault that they cannot play "whatever they want"?

[Icefalcon]

no i don't think a gm should restrict classes. its not my job to police someone elses idea of an awesome hero concept. its my job to create a fun and hopefully memorable gaming experience for my group of players. not live out my fantasy of controlling someone elses reality.

So because we would be playing Rifts, I would be wrong for telling you that you cannot play a super from HU?

[Icefalcon]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

But if agreed to play the game before hand, you already agreed to follow the GM's rules.

No, you agreed to play the game with the assumption going in that one would be playing by Palladium's rules, not necessarily the rules the GM has decided to add or modified from what the books have written.

So GM's may not restrict class?

According to some players a GM is not allowed to do anything that might have a negative impact on the Players Character.
And apparently any GM that attempts to do so is automatically a bad GM.

Here is tip for those players...
If you encounter multiple GMs consecutively that you have termed "bad GMs"...
It might not be the GM that is the problem.

I wholeheartedly agree here Damien.

[The Beast]

The impression I get here is however we have one person being inflexible. not 10. not 100. not 1000. but 1.
Everyone else is able to work with in the limits the GMs set. Why is this one not?

Well what if it's the GM being inflexible? Perhaps the player was only wanting powers that would be the equivalent of wearing you average suit of MDC armor, or they weren't wanting any powers that would make the PC a MDC being, and the GM wasn't willing to negotiate with the player so he could make a PC that he'd want to play, but wouldn't upset the power level the GM was wanting to run.

[say652]

my super vagabond. Simon level 7 scrupulous hero. major powers sonicflight,sonic speed, intangibility, energy resistance, energy expulsion electricity, extraordinary physical strength. how is this overpowered or broken in a rifts game? its not in my opinion broken or unfair by any means.

[Icefalcon]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

But if agreed to play the game before hand, you already agreed to follow the GM's rules.

No, you agreed to play the game with the assumption going in that one would be playing by Palladium's rules, not necessarily the rules the GM has decided to add or modified from what the books have written.

So GM's may not restrict class?

Yeah, I don't get it either Ninjabunny. If they cannot find something different to play among literally thousands of other combos of class/race without complaining about that one thing they want to play, they blame the GM.

[Icefalcon]

The impression I get here is however we have one person being inflexible. not 10. not 100. not 1000. but 1.
Everyone else is able to work with in the limits the GMs set. Why is this one not?

Well what if it's the GM being inflexible? Perhaps the player was only wanting powers that would be the equivalent of wearing you average suit of MDC armor, or they weren't wanting any powers that would make the PC a MDC being, and the GM wasn't willing to negotiate with the player so he could make a PC that he'd want to play, but wouldn't upset the power level the GM was wanting to run.

Any GM, should be flexible enough to at least be willing to compromise. But in my experience, blanket bans come from GM's that have been burned too many times from players who break games with their "super awesome character ideas".

[Nightmask]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

But if agreed to play the game before hand, you already agreed to follow the GM's rules.

No, you agreed to play the game with the assumption going in that one would be playing by Palladium's rules, not necessarily the rules the GM has decided to add or modified from what the books have written.

So if I tell people that I am running a game set in North America and I am limiting the classes to that continent with a few exceptions but on a first come first serve basis, it is my fault that they cannot play "whatever they want"?

Given it's Rifts yes, particularly if you have exceptions which means some get to play whatever they want while others do not. Some people actually like playing that victim of Rift activity ending up on Rifts earth from another world particularly a parallel Earth. Either for the uniqueness of the character or just because they like the 'oh my poor lost world!' angst RP.

[Icefalcon]

my super vagabond. Simon level 7 scrupulous hero. major powers sonicflight,sonic speed, intangibility, energy resistance, energy expulsion electricity, extraordinary physical strength. how is this overpowered or broken in a rifts game? its not in my opinion broken or unfair by any means.

This depends on the power level of the other players. If my group wanted to be a bunch of city rats and play in a urban envoriment like the burbs then yes this guy is a no go for that. If everyone is in PA and dragons then his a go.

Not to mention that if you ask to play the same character in every game, then you probably are going to hear a no also.

[Nightmask]

Yeah, I don't get it either Ninjabunny. If they cannot find something different to play among literally thousands of other combos of class/race without complaining about that one thing they want to play, they blame the GM.

That's really not an accurate assessment of things, the GM aren't allowing all those combinations and especially if they are it comes off weak in the extreme to insist that one particular idea is forbidden while going 'but hey there's all this over here you don't want but might be close enough'. Why should someone have to settle for 'close enough' when others get exactly what they want? Especially if they're a good player and there's no reason to expect problems from them playing it.

[Nightmask]

my super vagabond. Simon level 7 scrupulous hero. major powers sonicflight,sonic speed, intangibility, energy resistance, energy expulsion electricity, extraordinary physical strength. how is this overpowered or broken in a rifts game? its not in my opinion broken or unfair by any means.

This depends on the power level of the other players. If my group wanted to be a bunch of city rats and play in a urban envoriment like the burbs then yes this guy is a no go for that. If everyone is in PA and dragons then his a go.

Not to mention that if you ask to play the same character in every game, then you probably are going to hear a no also.

Why? Assuming you mean 'always wants to play this OCC' rather than 'always wants to play a particular character', as a particular character (like Bob the Cyber-Knight) may not be able to justify being able to get to where he could join a particular game from the previous game he was used in.

[The Beast]

my super vagabond. Simon level 7 scrupulous hero. major powers sonicflight,sonic speed, intangibility, energy resistance, energy expulsion electricity, extraordinary physical strength. how is this overpowered or broken in a rifts game? its not in my opinion broken or unfair by any means.

Oh my gawd!!!
How could you die!?
Your enemies could only hit you on a nat 20, and intangibility and the like is just extra gravy.

Volley of missiles and a bad dodge roll to turn intangible. My first HU PC had almost the same powers listed here. When converted to Rifts he only had 95 MDC. First time out one of the SAMAS units we were fighting launched both missiles at me. I had a decent dodge bonus, but it wasn't enough that time. I took 90 MD, and spent most of the time we were there after that trying to earn enough credits to buy some armor.

[say652]

my super vagabond. Simon level 7 scrupulous hero. major powers sonicflight,sonic speed, intangibility, energy resistance, energy expulsion electricity, extraordinary physical strength. how is this overpowered or broken in a rifts game? its not in my opinion broken or unfair by any means.

This depends on the power level of the other players. If my group wanted to be a bunch of city rats and play in a urban envoriment like the burbs then yes this guy is a no go for that. If everyone is in PA and dragons then his a go.

the party consisted of a level 12 power amor pilot, a level 12 psi stalker loaded with rune weapons, a mind melter also level 12 who somehow learned samurai swordsmanship also at level 12, and my hero that started out at first level. the energy resistance works like this any energy based attack deals damage-30 then half, so a 60 md blast only deals 15 md. the intangibility while awesome is limited to self plus 40lbs and requires an action to activate. true i did have like 140mdc and did supernatural damage with punches the lack of any useful skills more than made up for the fact he was a super vagabond using the conversion book. i wore crusader armor, carried a vibrosword an energy pistol and an energy rifle. at level seven i sold my pulse rifle and bought another pistol. he was fast and strong but not game unbalancing in any way. 100% rifts legal using the conversion book. most of the time i scouted ahead intangible so my main skill was Prowl. took me a year of wanting to play the character before i was allowed to join the game.

[Icefalcon]

again without compromise we stand firmly on a line in the sand yelling at each other instead of playing a game. it breaks down to the gm vs the players. the gm wants his game run his way with characters of his choosing. IN A GAME THAT SAYS YOU CAN PLAY ANYTHING!!! that is why i walked away from rifts after a long time trying to make the game fun for me without being able to play a character i wanted to play. i started with rifts got fed up and purchased a game that fit my play style more. so while rifts lost a lifelong gamer Heroes Unlimited gained one.

But if agreed to play the game before hand, you already agreed to follow the GM's rules.

No, you agreed to play the game with the assumption going in that one would be playing by Palladium's rules, not necessarily the rules the GM has decided to add or modified from what the books have written.

So if I tell people that I am running a game set in North America and I am limiting the classes to that continent with a few exceptions but on a first come first serve basis, it is my fault that they cannot play "whatever they want"?

Given it's Rifts yes, particularly if you have exceptions which means some get to play whatever they want while others do not. Some people actually like playing that victim of Rift activity ending up on Rifts earth from another world particularly a parallel Earth. Either for the uniqueness of the character or just because they like the 'oh my poor lost world!' angst RP.

No dude, if I usually tell my players what to expect up front, including limitations. If they don't like that, they are more than welcome to find another group. But you know what, every single one of them plays anyways and without a single complaint about how I am "holding back their creativity". They are more than willing to find a character withing the parameters set. And by the way, if I limit something on a first come first serve basis it is usually the number of things (such as only one dragon or one glitterboy or the like) so that everyone is not playing the same thing unless that is the point of the game.

[Nightmask]

my super vagabond. Simon level 7 scrupulous hero. major powers sonicflight,sonic speed, intangibility, energy resistance, energy expulsion electricity, extraordinary physical strength. how is this overpowered or broken in a rifts game? its not in my opinion broken or unfair by any means.

Oh my gawd!!!
How could you die!?
Your enemies could only hit you on a nat 20, and intangibility and the like is just extra gravy.

Volley of missiles and a bad dodge roll to turn intangible. My first HU PC had almost the same powers listed here. When converted to Rifts he only had 95 MDC. First time out one of the SAMAS units we were fighting launched both missiles at me. I had a decent dodge bonus, but it wasn't enough that time. I took 90 MD, and spent most of the time we were there after that trying to earn enough credits to buy some armor.

Plus Intangibility doesn't make you immune to gas attacks either, and even with the resistance to energy reducing the damage you still take some damage even while intangible from a variety of energy attacks. Just goes to show how quickly the 'unbeatable' characters aren't (except sadly to those who keep insisting it's unbeatable in spite of being shown otherwise).

[Damian Magecraft]

Yeah, I don't get it either Ninjabunny. If they cannot find something different to play among literally thousands of other combos of class/race without complaining about that one thing they want to play, they blame the GM.

That's really not an accurate assessment of things, the GM aren't allowing all those combinations and especially if they are it comes off weak in the extreme to insist that one particular idea is forbidden while going 'but hey there's all this over here you don't want but might be close enough'. Why should someone have to settle for 'close enough' when others get exactly what they want? Especially if they're a good player and there's no reason to expect problems from them playing it.

But I have no proof they are a "good" player... just their word and an "awesome" (yet tired old retread I have seen abused a thousand times) character concept.
Nope not lifting my blanket ban until you prove you are a responsible player and not some closet munchkin looking for a game group to mentally/emotionally dominate. And arguing with me over that decision is not helping your insistence that you are a "good" player and not a self centered munchkin who cares about nothing but the mental masturbation that is his kewl character concept.

[Icefalcon]

Yeah, I don't get it either Ninjabunny. If they cannot find something different to play among literally thousands of other combos of class/race without complaining about that one thing they want to play, they blame the GM.

That's really not an accurate assessment of things, the GM aren't allowing all those combinations and especially if they are it comes off weak in the extreme to insist that one particular idea is forbidden while going 'but hey there's all this over here you don't want but might be close enough'. Why should someone have to settle for 'close enough' when others get exactly what they want? Especially if they're a good player and there's no reason to expect problems from them playing it.

But I have no proof they are a "good" player... just their word and an "awesome" (yet tired old retread I have seen abused a thousand times) character concept.
Nope not lifting my blanket ban until you prove you are a responsible player and not some closet munchkin looking for a game group to mentally/emotionally dominate. And arguing with me over that decision is not helping your insistence that you are a "good" player and not a self centered munchkin who cares about nothing but the mental masturbation that is his kewl character concept.

A bit harsh but an accurate description of how I am also.

[say652]

well in the first adventure everybody else was carving wild vampires like pumpkins while i wrestled around and somehow got into a one on one with a secondary vampire which i did manage to stake after i got knocked through enough buildings to create a large pile of kindling. but without a lore demons and monster skill, i left the staked leader to help out the rest of the party in the fight. which of course the staked vamp got rescued by a wild vamp and kept returning until i learned you have to decapitate a staked vamp to really kill it. i was allowed any rifts core book class at level 7 which i didn't want or a conversion book super at level 1. i was told super powers are game unbalancing?

[Icefalcon]

my super vagabond. Simon level 7 scrupulous hero. major powers sonicflight,sonic speed, intangibility, energy resistance, energy expulsion electricity, extraordinary physical strength. how is this overpowered or broken in a rifts game? its not in my opinion broken or unfair by any means.

This depends on the power level of the other players. If my group wanted to be a bunch of city rats and play in a urban envoriment like the burbs then yes this guy is a no go for that. If everyone is in PA and dragons then his a go.

the party consisted of a level 12 power amor pilot, a level 12 psi stalker loaded with rune weapons, a mind melter also level 12 who somehow learned samurai swordsmanship also at level 12, and my hero that started out at first level. the energy resistance works like this any energy based attack deals damage-30 then half, so a 60 md blast only deals 15 md. the intangibility while awesome is limited to self plus 40lbs and requires an action to activate. true i did have like 140mdc and did supernatural damage with punches the lack of any useful skills more than made up for the fact he was a super vagabond using the conversion book. i wore crusader armor, carried a vibrosword an energy pistol and an energy rifle. at level seven i sold my pulse rifle and bought another pistol. he was fast and strong but not game unbalancing in any way. 100% rifts legal using the conversion book. most of the time i scouted ahead intangible so my main skill was Prowl. took me a year of wanting to play the character before i was allowed to join the game.

My group clear to go as I told you, do you know why the GM didn't let you play the PC? Did they own heros?

Another valid point. I don't allow characters from books I don't own either. It is a valid reason for disallowing a character if I have no way to read up on what they can do and what kind of enemies I should throw at it.

[Icefalcon]

well in the first adventure everybody else was carving wild vampires like pumpkins while i wrestled around and somehow got into a one on one with a secondary vampire which i did manage to stake after i got knocked through enough buildings to create a large pile of kindling. but without a lore demons and monster skill, i left the staked leader to help out the rest of the party in the fight. which of course the staked vamp got rescued by a wild vamp and kept returning until i learned you have to decapitate a staked vamp to really kill it. i was allowed any rifts core book class at level 7 which i didn't want or a conversion book super at level 1. i was told super powers are game unbalancing?

That is just a sloppy GM in my opinion. Either that or he didn't like you.

[say652]

i was offered any class out of the corebook at level 7 with my choice of equipment,or a level 1 super. once i learned what skills acually mattered and were allowed to take the character turned out to be loads of fun to play. and the gm was a munchkin gmpc type who favored the power armor pilot. they used narrative combat? while i made attack rolls. their equipment never needed repairs while i often had to spend all my credits on repairs. the never ran out of ammo, i kept careful count of my e-clips and how many shots i had. it was a total lets hate on the super type game. in one session we were training a local resistance group, the party spent the whole session shooting me with laser pistols and added a bounty for any npc that could hit me in the face.

[Nightmask]

Yeah, I don't get it either Ninjabunny. If they cannot find something different to play among literally thousands of other combos of class/race without complaining about that one thing they want to play, they blame the GM.

That's really not an accurate assessment of things, the GM aren't allowing all those combinations and especially if they are it comes off weak in the extreme to insist that one particular idea is forbidden while going 'but hey there's all this over here you don't want but might be close enough'. Why should someone have to settle for 'close enough' when others get exactly what they want? Especially if they're a good player and there's no reason to expect problems from them playing it.

But I have no proof they are a "good" player... just their word and an "awesome" (yet tired old retread I have seen abused a thousand times) character concept.
Nope not lifting my blanket ban until you prove you are a responsible player and not some closet munchkin looking for a game group to mentally/emotionally dominate. And arguing with me over that decision is not helping your insistence that you are a "good" player and not a self centered munchkin who cares about nothing but the mental masturbation that is his kewl character concept.

A bit harsh but an accurate description of how I am also.

A really bad position to work from though, assuming the worst about everyone and scrutinizing everything they do looking for evidence of something that's highly subjective and can easily take something innocent and read it wrong. Because generally if you're looking really hard for something you'll always find proof of it even if it doesn't exist. I've seen that too often over the years, people who couldn't do anything without it being taken wrong and eventually giving up over the frustration sucked all hope of any enjoyment out of things.

You deal with a problem when you actually have a problem, from that person, not because you had someone else be a problem and now cynically assume everyone's just a bad player that you have to just look to see where his bad area is. There are enough real problems that crop of no point to creating problems that aren't there or making extra trouble for everyone over something that has a good chance of not being a problem.

[Eashamahel]

So, from 'how to get more players' all the way to why someones super hero is totally awesome but also totally balanced and fits into any game anyone could ever run and if he's not allowed to play that character in any game ever then that GM is terrible because he doesn't play it right and is bad at being a GM.

This has gone places.

Anyways, got my new group going, added yet another first time roleplayer, who happens to be the first gay man I have ever RPG'd with. Have gamed with a couple of lesbians before, but actually made a mental note to myself to include NPC's he could flirt/interact with, as I almost forgot that his character would default not be interested in women.

As he and I made his character, a process that I guided him through step by step which still took nearly 2 hours after I chose half of his skills for him, wrote his bonuses and set up the actual Character on paper, the three young women giddily played on I-Phones and Tablets. After going out to gaming stores in the area, they had spent a whole day looking at books, being swayed by salespeople, and become super hyped to play that night. Again of course, not to play Palladium games, but just to roleplay in general. Why not to play Palladium/Rifts in particular? Easy, no one sells it, no on in shops talks about it, and if you want to know why, it's clearly spelled out earlier in this thread (and no, it has nothing to do with forums).

Anyways, as they are all considering whether or not they are going to put their characters on I-Pads or leave them on the notebooks they all bought just to put their characters in, they start searching online. Are there Rifts Apps for character sheets, classes, that kind of stuff? Are there Rifts podcasts? 'Does Palladium do a Podcast?' 'I can't find one, but Dungeons and Dragons does!'. Is there a Rifts website? Any videos? Cool art?

Nope. Palladium doesn't do any of that.


Game went great. Everyone had fun. I run games so loose that no one comes up with rule problems, and they all loved it. Every Wednesday and Sunday we are playing, from now until they let their guards down and I can make a run for it. They would play any RPG if it was fun and someone they like ran it for them. They would never have chosen Rifts/Palladium on their own though, they never would have even heard about it.

PS- (my players, who dress up and try and hit fan expos every year)

Player 1 - Oh, look, Vampire and Changeling do LARPING, where you dress up in costumes.
Player 2 - Like at fan expo? That would be awesome! But I'd be too nervous to talk to anyone.
Me- Yeah, White Wolf has always done that, it's called Mind's Eye Theatre, it's pretty neat.
Player 2 - That would be neat. Have you ever seen anyone dressed up as anything from Rifts?
Me - ...nope.

[Damian Magecraft]

Yeah, I don't get it either Ninjabunny. If they cannot find something different to play among literally thousands of other combos of class/race without complaining about that one thing they want to play, they blame the GM.

That's really not an accurate assessment of things, the GM aren't allowing all those combinations and especially if they are it comes off weak in the extreme to insist that one particular idea is forbidden while going 'but hey there's all this over here you don't want but might be close enough'. Why should someone have to settle for 'close enough' when others get exactly what they want? Especially if they're a good player and there's no reason to expect problems from them playing it.

But I have no proof they are a "good" player... just their word and an "awesome" (yet tired old retread I have seen abused a thousand times) character concept.
Nope not lifting my blanket ban until you prove you are a responsible player and not some closet munchkin looking for a game group to mentally/emotionally dominate. And arguing with me over that decision is not helping your insistence that you are a "good" player and not a self centered munchkin who cares about nothing but the mental masturbation that is his kewl character concept.

A bit harsh but an accurate description of how I am also.

A really bad position to work from though, assuming the worst about everyone and scrutinizing everything they do looking for evidence of something that's highly subjective and can easily take something innocent and read it wrong. Because generally if you're looking really hard for something you'll always find proof of it even if it doesn't exist. I've seen that too often over the years, people who couldn't do anything without it being taken wrong and eventually giving up over the frustration sucked all hope of any enjoyment out of things.

You deal with a problem when you actually have a problem, from that person, not because you had someone else be a problem and now cynically assume everyone's just a bad player that you have to just look to see where his bad area is. There are enough real problems that crop of no point to creating problems that aren't there or making extra trouble for everyone over something that has a good chance of not being a problem.

after 35 years in the hobby (30 as a GM)...
not a bad stance to work from.
A valid one.
every single time I have given a new player the benefit of the doubt I have gotten bitten in the ass.
Sorry as both a player and GM at this point I have no tolerance any longer for anyone unable to work with in the restrictions given by any GM.
and no amount whining "you are punishing me for the actions of others" is going to move me (do you have any idea how many disruptive players use that tact? no? all of them.)
so guess what...
prove you are a good player first then we will see about that character concept.

[Icefalcon]

So, from 'how to get more players' all the way to why someones super hero is totally awesome but also totally balanced and fits into any game anyone could ever run and if he's not allowed to play that character in any game ever then that GM is terrible because he doesn't play it right and is bad at being a GM.

This has gone places.

Anyways, got my new group going, added yet another first time roleplayer, who happens to be the first gay man I have ever RPG'd with. Have gamed with a couple of lesbians before, but actually made a mental note to myself to include NPC's he could flirt/interact with, as I almost forgot that his character would default not be interested in women.

As he and I made his character, a process that I guided him through step by step which still took nearly 2 hours after I chose half of his skills for him, wrote his bonuses and set up the actual Character on paper, the three young women giddily played on I-Phones and Tablets. After going out to gaming stores in the area, they had spent a whole day looking at books, being swayed by salespeople, and become super hyped to play that night. Again of course, not to play Palladium games, but just to roleplay in general. Why not to play Palladium/Rifts in particular? Easy, no one sells it, no on in shops talks about it, and if you want to know why, it's clearly spelled out earlier in this thread (and no, it has nothing to do with forums).

Anyways, as they are all considering whether or not they are going to put their characters on I-Pads or leave them on the notebooks they all bought just to put their characters in, they start searching online. Are there Rifts Apps for character sheets, classes, that kind of stuff? Are there Rifts podcasts? 'Does Palladium do a Podcast?' 'I can't find one, but Dungeons and Dragons does!'. Is there a Rifts website? Any videos? Cool art?

Nope. Palladium doesn't do any of that.


Game went great. Everyone had fun. I run games so loose that no one comes up with rule problems, and they all loved it. Every Wednesday and Sunday we are playing, from now until they let their guards down and I can make a run for it. They would play any RPG if it was fun and someone they like ran it for them. They would never have chosen Rifts/Palladium on their own though, they never would have even heard about it.

PS- (my players, who dress up and try and hit fan expos every year)

Player 1 - Oh, look, Vampire and Changeling do LARPING, where you dress up in costumes.
Player 2 - Like at fan expo? That would be awesome! But I'd be too nervous to talk to anyone.
Me- Yeah, White Wolf has always done that, it's called Mind's Eye Theatre, it's pretty neat.
Player 2 - That would be neat. Have you ever seen anyone dressed up as anything from Rifts?
Me - ...nope.

Sounds a lot like some of my players. I am constantly hearing questions about apps, PDF's, online content and all of those things. I think the largest turn off for most of them (other than the rules) stems more from lack of online support of the games.

[Akashic Soldier]

Damian, this is only relivant from a page or so ago, but just so you know man. There are rules with hard numbers for creating your own spells in Mysteries of Magic, so when people ask if there are rules for making your own spells, you can say "Yes!"

Just thought you'd want to know.

OKAY, as for this whole "G.M.s should allow everything B.S." (and it is B.S.!), that is the surest way to destroy a game. Its not only a matter of power, its also a matter of theme. If ANYTHING flies, than you end up with Cyber Knights/Cosmo Knights in your gungry NGR Cyberpunk Style game and Mages in your Coalition games, and weird combinations of superhero powers that are "unbalancing"

See, the concept that there is no game balance in Palladium is a lie and a misconception. Its just "balance" is based more off contribution over "power", just like in comic books or film. Each player should have the ability to contribute just as much as everyone else, regardless of their "power level" as per the Justice League or Avengers. The problem is, a lot of players want to be Superman but don't want the vulnerability to Kryptonite or any sort of emotional attachment/connection to any other person/place/thing. Worse, most of the time the players who want to be superheroes are power-gamers that essentially want power for nothing. "Why would I want to learn magic or be psionic when I can shoot blasts that do more damage and have no P.P.E. or I.S.P. cost? Plus, if its a superpower than no one can take it away and I don't need E-Clips."

This makes for BAD long stories unless that is the theme of the entire game, without vulnerabilities, weaknesses (mechanical or psychological "Being a child, etc.") than super powers CAN allow a character to turn themselves an unassailable wall. In fact, my first experience with super powers was someone pitching a character to me who was invulnerable (+700 M.D.C. and impervious to most forms of attack), and could turn into gas (which essentially made them impervious to the only things that could hurt them). Worse, the character was just "a mutant" who was "born that way" and looked 100% human. In fact, they were attractive. No drawback. No weakness, and an impressive suite of skills since they were a Vagabond. So, this character was essentially going to dominate every aspect of the game and take away a lot from the other players. "If we can get super powers, than **** being a juicer!" said another of my players, and from a mechanical point of view he'd be right. Why would anyone want to play someone with the flaws of a Crazy or a Juicer if you can just slap super-powers on another character?

That is my problem with it. So, I typically do not allow it. That said, in my current game, I gave each of my players a random superpower (rolled at random) from the book of heroes. However, none of them knew that coming into the game, so they're all still learning the origins of these powers, what they mean, and how to use them. So obviously I have NO PROBLEM with superpowers. However, I want them to be important, or interesting, or effect the character, rather than just being an excuse to have power X, Y, and Z at no cost, without bothering to thinking of how that would impact the story or your fellow players.

Anyone who seriously expects me to let ANYONE play WHATEVER they want without regard for the group, my plot, or the game's theme/setting, is frankly being a bit of a short sighted jerk. If I allow something, it is because it is manageable. If I don't, its because its not. If I am playing a HIGH POWER game (my last attempt ended with my players having no interest in being all-powerful, ironically enough), than I typically allow anything, even super-powers. However, I expect it to be done well and people doing DUMB ****, like picking power combinations just to make them completely impervious to all forms of damage in the game should still expect a hard no, and as a Game Master that is my RIGHT. Likewise, I think if MORE G.M.s just said "No" than people would typically have better game experiences.

And before that is refuted, I've had "power gamers" come to me after the fact and thank me. It took a LONG time (about six game sessions; 1 and a half months of regular gaming), for them to "realize" and "level up" enough to see it, but its happened.

[Noon]

No, you agreed to play the game with the assumption going in that one would be playing by Palladium's rules, not necessarily the rules the GM has decided to add or modified from what the books have written.

A wee bit off topic of me, but what happens when it's not possible to play by the companys rules? Large gaps of when to do what are missing - just say for a moment a game is actually missing lots of text on what to do next - surely then you are stuck having the GM make house rules?

Or what happens when a player has only commited to following the rules, when it's impossible to just follow the rules?

Why should someone have to settle for 'close enough' when others get exactly what they want?

Because you wont die if you don't get it.

[Icefalcon]

Well stated both Akashic and Noon.

[The Beast]

Damian, this is only relivant from a page or so ago, but just so you know man. There are rules with hard numbers for creating your own spells in Mysteries of Magic, so when people ask if there are rules for making your own spells, you can say "Yes!"

There's also a set of rules in Through the Glass Darkly, which are much better IMO.

[say652]

and yet we wonder why new people do not want to join rifts. the rules this but my house rule is this. the book says this but in my game its this. i no longer feel bad about leaving rifts, this is not the game for me and i will not ask new people to play.

[flatline]

and yet we wonder why new people do not want to join rifts. the rules this but my house rule is this. the book says this but in my game its this. i no longer feel bad about leaving rifts, this is not the game for me and i will not ask new people to play.

There's never any reason to feel bad if you stop playing a game.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

Damian, this is only relivant from a page or so ago, but just so you know man. There are rules with hard numbers for creating your own spells in Mysteries of Magic, so when people ask if there are rules for making your own spells, you can say "Yes!"

There's also a set of rules in Through the Glass Darkly, which are much better IMO.

Both of which are attempts to apply rules to benchmarking and do not make it any easier to create a spell.
Of the Two I would recommend TtGD for determining PPE (if you have to insist on a math formula for it).
Other wise it is still just find a spell similar to the one you made and figure it out your self.

[Noon]

and yet we wonder why new people do not want to join rifts. the rules this but my house rule is this. the book says this but in my game its this. i no longer feel bad about leaving rifts, this is not the game for me and i will not ask new people to play.

Well if the rules were written up fully one of the following would occur.
1. They'd make such a vagabond super hero interesting even amongst other characters, instead of a me-me-me character.
2. They'd make such a vagabond super hero interesting to some demographic of gamers out there (if not interesting to me and others)
3. In writing up the rules fully, they'd just not allow your vagabond superhero anyway, so you'd be in the same place regardless.

I don't know if you think if it's in the rules then it must turn out to make for interesting play. It's not true - a designer can physically put something in the rules and it can make for sucky play (or sucky to most, only enjoyable to say around 10% of gamers).

Atleast don't blame the people who fix the suck with house rules, blame the game author who puts in rules allowing a vagabond super hero, but if he really playtested it (and actually followed his own rules), he'd probably find it sucks.