Ikazuchi Command Carrier

[Deathknight69]

Hey Guys,

Was/Has there ever been a list of named Ikazuchi's ??

[ShadowLogan]

Officially I don't think there has ever been any. At least none that come to mind.

The uRRG has fan-fiction names assigned to the ship type (and others when it is reasonable to do so)

[jaymz]

Officially I don't think there has ever been any. At least none that come to mind.

The uRRG has fan-fiction names assigned to the ship type (and others when it is reasonable to do so)

I have used uRRG for that myself as there is no official listings anywhere.....

[Deathknight69]

Officially I don't think there has ever been any. At least none that come to mind.

The uRRG has fan-fiction names assigned to the ship type (and others when it is reasonable to do so)

I have used uRRG for that myself as there is no official listings anywhere.....

What and where is uRRG ??

[ShadowLogan]

The uRRG is short hand for "Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide". It is written as a type of Jane's type book (at least that is the impression I get) and they did stats for Robotech hardware based on the OSM and some of their own guess work (mostly this side) for a fan-fiction series. Lots of people do use it, even though it is unofficial.

Their current web address:
http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/ReferenceGuide.html

[Alpha 11]

This might be a little of topic, but The Third Invid War site has some names listed for the ships there.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hey Guys,

Was/Has there ever been a list of named Ikazuchi's ??

Nothing official, no... but that's not terribly surprising. Of the three original shows used to make Robotech, it was only the original Macross that went deep enough into the details to give names to multiple ships of any given class. There were only two ships in MOSPEADA (RT's New Gen.) that had names stenciled on their hulls: one was the space carrier Ikazuchi, which bore the hull number 46; the other is the 3rd ERF flagship Izumo (RTSC calls this ship the "SDF-4 Liberator"), which bore the hull number 101. It's not known if these were part of the same numbering system, or a separate pair of numbering systems, or what.

[glitterboy2098]

the name Ikazuchi is one used several times in the japanese navy. a class of torpedo boats in Imperial Japanese Navy from 1899-21, the name of a destroyer from 1932-1944, and a class of Destroyer-escort from 1956–1977.

so you probably should be able to make up your own names using historic ship names from world navies. i'd say japanese, American, Russian, and maybe german would all work.

[Seto Kaiba]

the name Ikazuchi is one used several times in the japanese navy. a class of torpedo boats in Imperial Japanese Navy from 1899-21, the name of a destroyer from 1932-1944, and a class of Destroyer-escort from 1956–1977.

so you probably should be able to make up your own names using historic ship names from world navies. i'd say japanese, American, Russian, and maybe german would all work.

*nods* That's what Macross's creators did when they named twelve of the first fourteen ARMDs. Excluding ARMD-01 and ARMD-14, which were named after the first two prime ministers of the UN Government (the H.J. Niven and R.A. Rhysling respectively), they were named for:

• America's Constitution (ARMD-00 Prototype)
• Britain's Invincible (ARMD-02)
• America's Enterprise (ARMD-03)
• France's Clemenceau (ARMD-04)
• Japan's Akagi (ARMD-05)
• America's Constellation (ARMD-06)
• America's Ranger (ARMD-07)
• America's Midway (ARMD-08)
• Russia's Minsk (ARMD-09)
• Japan's Haruna (ARMD-10)
• Russia's Kiev (ARMD-11)
• America's Independence (ARMD-12)
• America's Forrestal (ARMD-13)

Other ARMDs from later production runs branched out a bit... some stuck to the names of existing carriers (among those mentioned were Ark Royal and Saratoga), while the ARMD II variant class went for the names of mountains (including Kilauea (ARMD-204) and Lassen Peak (ARMD-244)). Other classes went different ways. The naming convention for the twelve Macross-class SDFs was the names of UN Forces Generals, the Guantanamo-class stealth carriers were a mix of port cities and famous carriers, the developmental Asuka II-class surface carriers had been named for various real-world experimental ships (the other was the Graf Zeppelin II), etc.

With Robotech, it's hard to say what the naming conventions might be, since we never really get two ships from the same class named at any given time.


EDIT: Added ARMD-00, which is mentioned in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix.

[jaymz]

The uRRG is short hand for "Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide". It is written as a type of Jane's type book (at least that is the impression I get) and they did stats for Robotech hardware based on the OSM and some of their own guess work (mostly this side) for a fan-fiction series. Lots of people do use it, even though it is unofficial.

Their current web address:
http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/ReferenceGuide.html

As a side note they originally called it the Robotech technical Glossaries back in the early to late 90's

[Seto Kaiba]

As a side note they originally called it the Robotech technical Glossaries back in the early to late 90's

... and saying that it's based on the OSM would be giving them entirely too much credit.

[Hystrix]

The Robotech Technical Files. I'm not sure how "official" it is, but it is a very interesting list.

http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/Naval/Ikazuchi.html

[Seto Kaiba]

The Robotech Technical Files. I'm not sure how "official" it is, but it is a very interesting list.

None of it is official. I mean NONE of it.

(Of course, it's somebody's fan-fiction rather than anything meant to be an accurate reference... so it's all gravy.)

[drewkitty ~..~]

If the naming conventions are the same as the most navies then the 1st of the class was named "Ikazuchi".

[Seto Kaiba]

If the naming conventions are the same as the most navies then the 1st of the class was named "Ikazuchi".

It's certainly possible, though Robotech isn't known for its strict adherence to realistic military practice or convention. The only time we see the ship named as such is in the line art, where it bears the hull number 46... which makes one wonder if it's the 46th of its class, or there was some hull numbering system that extended from a previous class the way they do in the real world.

On reflection, I wonder which Ikazuchi the ship in the OSM and RT was named for? The legendary sumo stable of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Akatsuki-class destroyer from WW2, or the small destroyer escort class made during the 1950s? Ikazuchi means "Thunder", so it's possible they went with a weather motif there. There were not enough ships of the old Ikazuchi-class to cover 'em all (just six, and we know the UEEF had at least forty). I can't quite see ships whose names translate as "Rainbow", "Dawn" and "Ripple" as particularly intimidating...

The Tokugawa-class presents some interesting possibilities too... depending on how large the class was, they could have been named for the Shoguns of the Tokugawa shogunate (15 in total), famous personages or daimyo of the Sengoku period (if the first-in-class was officially the Tokugawa Ieyasu), or possibly periods of Japanese history (if there were only a half-dozen or so of 'em).

[Sgt Anjay]

Judging from the Normandy theme of GCM, a WWII inspiration is the most likely.

As for names, specifically what is and is not an appropriate name for a ship, varies by culture and linguistic convention. If a culture hold their word for rainbow cuts the mustard, its pretty presumptuous to dictate otherwise. And now that you mention it, there was a Spanish ship-of-the-line named Iris, after the Greek goddess of...you guessed it, the Rainbow. The Spanish word for rainbow, actually, is Arco Iris: Arch of Iris. Just goes to show.

But there's the rub, of course, any naming theme has quite a lot of choices if you take into account the various languages of the various peoples which would compose the United Earth forces. You could even get clever and, for example, have the Ikazuchi lead the Thunder, the Trueno, the Xùn Léi, the Donner, the Hrom, the Torden, etc.

And that's if you don't use the "letter" convention used by, i.e., the British, which for the Ikazuchi would lead to a class with names like Ise, Invincible, Indefatigable, Iberia, Isabela, Indomptable, Iney, and so forth.

[rtsurfer]

If the naming conventions are the same as the most navies then the 1st of the class was named "Ikazuchi".

It's certainly possible, though Robotech isn't known for its strict adherence to realistic military practice or convention. The only time we see the ship named as such is in the line art, where it bears the hull number 46... which makes one wonder if it's the 46th of its class, or there was some hull numbering system that extended from a previous class the way they do in the real world.

"Ikazuchi 46" in the animation

"Imazuchi" in the animation

[glitterboy2098]

i'd guess that the hull numbers would follow real world methods, with the number not being tied to the class. so the first ikazuchi was the 46th ship the UEEF built since the start of that hull numbering scheme. presumably the previous ships were stuff like Tokugawa and Shimakaze class ships.


(i would note the ASC fleet probably had a seperate hull registry, since IIRC we see more than 46 ships with the TASC.. and that doesn't include the tokugawas that show up from the UEEF. likewise the "SDF" classification seems to be a seperate registry.)

hmm.. i wonder. could the UEDF have built a few ARMD's with 'strap on' fold drives as a stopgap while it got the Tokugawa's and other early ships built?

[Sgt Anjay]

Seeing as the Icarus goes from hull number 99 to 86 between Prelude and TSC, I don't know that focusing too much on them is very fruitful. Either the numbers work differently than real life, or there was some major change in the system they used to number the hulls in the interim which I think has been known to happen. Either case makes it nigh impossible to draw anything particularly definitive from them alone.

[Seto Kaiba]

Judging from the Normandy theme of GCM, a WWII inspiration is the most likely.

Obviously, for the OSM... but it's anybody's guess if that still holds true for the Robotech version of things. The original MOSPEADA wasn't too fussed with ships in general, and subsequent Robotech works seem to either avoid naming them by intent or low budget. The few ships that ARE named tend towards the "we thought it sounded cool" rather than adhering to any specific naming convention.

As for names, specifically what is and is not an appropriate name for a ship, varies by culture and linguistic convention. If a culture hold their word for rainbow cuts the mustard, its pretty presumptuous to dictate otherwise. [...]

The point was that what works for one language (e.g. Japanese) may not work for another... like English.

i'd guess that the hull numbers would follow real world methods, with the number not being tied to the class. so the first ikazuchi was the 46th ship the UEEF built since the start of that hull numbering scheme. presumably the previous ships were stuff like Tokugawa and Shimakaze class ships.

Available evidence from The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles indicates that the hull numbers are not a traditional hull number system like that used by modern navies, but rather are markings denoting which division a ship was assigned to. (Ref. AotSC pg109)

This would presumably be why the Icarus changed hull numbers after her capture by the UEEF loyalists. It bore the markings of the UEEF 99th Division when it was serving as Edwards' ship of choice, but changed to the UEEF 86th Division after her capture by Vince Grant and the survivors of the Tokugawa (which, now that I look at it, had a 86 marked on her hull just forward of the bridge tower). In theory, more than one ship could bear the same number if any given UEEF or Mars division were too large to be accommodated by any one ship. This would mean that the 03's marked on the SDF-3 are not its hull number, but rather its assigned division. The SDF-4 retained the 101 marking it had in the original animation. It is, in that respect, slightly odd that the incomplete colony ship Ark Angel had a division marking already stenciled on its hull (UEEF 8th Division, according to AotSC pg116) before it even had a troop complement. With Vince in charge, it'll probably be re-numbered 86 again.

(i would note the ASC fleet probably had a seperate hull registry, since IIRC we see more than 46 ships with the TASC.. and that doesn't include the tokugawas that show up from the UEEF. likewise the "SDF" classification seems to be a seperate registry.)

Probably did, though if they used a similar numbering convention to that described in AotSC, they might have used the division/squadron number for the Tactics Space Corps units they were carrying. The ships of the Macross Saga use a more traditional modern hull numbering system, as far as we've seen.

hmm.. i wonder. could the UEDF have built a few ARMD's with 'strap on' fold drives as a stopgap while it got the Tokugawa's and other early ships built?

Fold drive modules seem to be relatively small in RT, based on the labeled diagrams in AotSC. It's possible they could have fitted a salvaged Zentradi drive system internally. (The OSM ARMDs already had the fittings to take a fold drive system, but the drives themselves had not been completed when the ships were launched.)

[Sgt Anjay]

Judging from the Normandy theme of GCM, a WWII inspiration is the most likely.

Obviously, for the OSM... but it's anybody's guess if that still holds true for the Robotech version of things.

Fair enough, though it seems to me worthwhile to point out the real-life origin of that name for that ship, even if one decides to fictionalize.

[The original MOSPEADA wasn't too fussed with ships in general, and subsequent Robotech works seem to either avoid naming them by intent or low budget. The few ships that ARE named tend towards the "we thought it sounded cool" rather than adhering to any specific naming convention..

Probably the wiser course to name what they needed than cobble up a half-baked, cockamamie scheme that's cribbed from elsewhere or overly simplistic. United Earth forces would realistically have a mish-mash compared to real-world systems, simply to accomodate the various languages, internal factions, and traditions with minimal rancor.

[

As for names, specifically what is and is not an appropriate name for a ship, varies by culture and linguistic convention. If a culture hold their word for rainbow cuts the mustard, its pretty presumptuous to dictate otherwise. [...]

The point was that what works for one language (e.g. Japanese) may not work for another... like English.

And mine is that's ridiculous. How would that meeting even go? "Sorry, but even though the name is in your language with its own cultural context and traditions, if you translate it into our superior language we think it sounds wussy, so you're overruled."

Outside of something offensive, if a ship is named in a certain language, it's that language's culture and tradition that matter, or there's no point in even using that language.

[glitterboy2098]

hmm.. i wonder. could the UEDF have built a few ARMD's with 'strap on' fold drives as a stopgap while it got the Tokugawa's and other early ships built?

Fold drive modules seem to be relatively small in RT, based on the labeled diagrams in AotSC. It's possible they could have fitted a salvaged Zentradi drive system internally. (The OSM ARMDs already had the fittings to take a fold drive system, but the drives themselves had not been completed when the ships were launched.)

the main thing i think would be whether earth would bother building new ARMD's at all. i can't imagine that any survived the arrival of the zentraedi grand fleet.. and having some parked a long way from earth kind of stretches credulity a bit.*

i would imagine ARMD's would be easier to build than say, the Tokugawa class (construction of which is implied to have begun before the zent's arrived, though probably just the hull was being worked on when the war broke out, if that.) but even an ARMD would be a major undertaking for post 1st war humanity, no matter how many people survived. at least until the Factory sat is obtained.

and once you have the factory Sat, and it's drydocks, you can dismantle some of the hulks sitting in earth orbit, letting you build something much more capable than an ARMD.

still, the possibility of an ARMD platform with the open area on it's ventral hull filled with a salvaged zent mainpower unit and and a Fold drive is tempting, especially since that would let GM's play around with exploration missions, without having to deal with placing human crews aboard zent ships for each campaign.


*given that we see at least one destroyed by breetai's scouting force at the start of the show, and we see a few others in the fight going on during the SDF-1's little orbital jaunt before the fold, odds are that earth's orbital defenses were pretty weakened. even if a few ARMD's had been moved out away from earth for some reason, i'd imagine that they'd have been recalled during the year it took the SDF-1 to make it's journey.. which would put them in orbit when the grand fleet arrived...

[Seto Kaiba]

Fair enough, though it seems to me worthwhile to point out the real-life origin of that name for that ship, even if one decides to fictionalize.

Agreed... with Harmony Gold stuck trying to combine material from three unrelated shows, each of which took its own, separate tack with the organization of humanity's defenders, the less they say the less chance they have to trip over their own explanations. (Not that it doesn't happen often enough anyway...)

Probably the wiser course to name what they needed than cobble up a half-baked, cockamamie scheme that's cribbed from elsewhere or overly simplistic. United Earth forces would realistically have a mish-mash compared to real-world systems, simply to accomodate the various languages, internal factions, and traditions with minimal rancor.

I'd wager that it'd probably come out to something vaguely similar to what the creators of the original Macross decided to use... a more-or-less American-derived system with a smattering of traditions and homages to the other significant member nations of the world government. Macross mainly used American-style hull symbols, but on some occasions they borrow from other nations. The framework for overlap and inter-operation was laid down ages ago... so at least there wouldn't be that much work to do. Robotech's creative staff seem to have decided to stay away from it as much as circumstances permit, since they're not exactly working with military buffs on staff as Macross and MOSPEADA's production teams were.

And mine is that's ridiculous. How would that meeting even go? "Sorry, but even though the name is in your language with its own cultural context and traditions, if you translate it into our superior language we think it sounds wussy, so you're overruled."

So... did we just recreate the Robotech adaptation process for a second here?

Outside of something offensive, if a ship is named in a certain language, it's that language's culture and tradition that matter, or there's no point in even using that language.

Presumably they would tend to err toward whatever official language was decided for the unified forces... oddly, in the original Macross the language they went with for that was English.

the main thing i think would be whether earth would bother building new ARMD's at all. i can't imagine that any survived the arrival of the zentraedi grand fleet.. and having some parked a long way from earth kind of stretches credulity a bit.*

Officially, none did... at least, not in the Robotech version of things. Depending on what version of events you'd like to consult for the original Macross, some incomplete spaceframes did dodge the bullet by not being complete and still in their slips at the manufacturing station at Earth-Moon L5. Of course, ARMDs were an advantageous design because they were brutally simple (a prefab "space airstrip" fitted with engines and a bridge), dirt cheap, and versatile in the extreme. The Zentradi sort of skipped the moon, so any that might've been stationed there could possibly have survived.

i would imagine ARMD's would be easier to build than say, the Tokugawa class (construction of which is implied to have begun before the zent's arrived, though probably just the hull was being worked on when the war broke out, if that.) [...]

Probably, but it depends where the UEDF had its shipyards in space. From the Stars suggests the ARMDs were being built in Earth orbit, so it's unlikely that any ships under construction there would've escaped destruction. In the original, the UN Gov't's principal shipyard was at Earth-Moon L5, and escaped the bombardment entirely intact. There are a couple different ways to play it... we really don't know enough about UEDF shipbuilding to say.

still, the possibility of an ARMD platform with the open area on it's ventral hull filled with a salvaged zent mainpower unit and and a Fold drive is tempting, especially since that would let GM's play around with exploration missions, without having to deal with placing human crews aboard zent ships for each campaign.

Indeed, it's an interesting notion. Not one that Macross's creators left unexplored either. There was a variant design for the "classic" ARMD shown circa 2047 in the Macross 7 side story Macross 7 Trash, which had been fitted with a fold drive (as all ARMDs starting with unit 11 were) and had its underside filled in with an oversize hangar bay that could easily accept large craft.

[Sgt Anjay]

Fair enough, though it seems to me worthwhile to point out the real-life origin of that name for that ship, even if one decides to fictionalize.

Agreed... with Harmony Gold stuck trying to combine material from three unrelated shows, each of which took its own, separate tack with the organization of humanity's defenders, the less they say the less chance they have to trip over their own explanations. (Not that it doesn't happen often enough anyway...)

Probably the wiser course to name what they needed than cobble up a half-baked, cockamamie scheme that's cribbed from elsewhere or overly simplistic. United Earth forces would realistically have a mish-mash compared to real-world systems, simply to accomodate the various languages, internal factions, and traditions with minimal rancor.

I'd wager that it'd probably come out to something vaguely similar to what the creators of the original Macross decided to use

You? Champion the Macross franchise's take? I'm shocked. SHOCKED.

Frankly, it's impossible to say how something like that would actually go, if for no other reason than we are completely unaware of the state of any given world power or faction for sure at the time the SDF-1 engendered an armistice in the Global War. And at any rate, we're not speaking of anything so operationally vital as fleet or command structures. This is "whatcha wanna name this?" Even within modern individual nations, politics, cult of personality, and money often have as much to say as any purely naval factor, and ofttimes more. Combine different nations/factions, different cultures, different languages, different traditions, different priorities, add in the personalities, who's financing what which is built where by who...people are not easy animals to predict en masse without a lot of known variables that we're just not privy to, and how those people compromise on something like the name of something...

Suffice to say, lots of different ways one could legitimately go with it, not least of which that every single ship (or batch thereof) is a brand new open debate, wrangling, and jostling ending in who won being demonstrated for all to see on a side of a hull.

Not to be too critical of the Macross franchise, which tends to be very good at creating verisimilitude, but that last sounds rather more interesting and just as likely as the system being "how 'Muhrica does it, if they threw other countries a bone now and then".

And mine is that's ridiculous. How would that meeting even go? "Sorry, but even though the name is in your language with its own cultural context and traditions, if you translate it into our superior language we think it sounds wussy, so you're overruled."

So... did we just recreate the Robotech adaptation process for a second here?

No.

Outside of something offensive, if a ship is named in a certain language, it's that language's culture and tradition that matter, or there's no point in even using that language.

Presumably they would tend to err toward whatever official language was decided for the unified forces

First of all you're assuming only one language can be official, which is not the case. Second of all, it doesn't matter what languages are official, and I'm a little disturbed you're of the opinion that how a name sounds when translated to a bunch of english-speakers is the be-all-end-all rule of what ship names from the entire rest of humanity are valid.

[Seto Kaiba]

You? Champion the Macross franchise's take? I'm shocked. SHOCKED.

Yep, I try to mix it up for you.

Frankly, it's impossible to say how something like that would actually go, if for no other reason than we are completely unaware of the state of any given world power or faction for sure at the time the SDF-1 engendered an armistice in the Global War.

We can have a pretty good guess, thanks to the way things turned out in the Macross Saga and what we see of the state of affairs in the From the Stars limited comic series. Unsurprisingly, it seems like a situation similar in the basics to what Macross's creators conceived for the UN Wars and the eventual unification of Earth... the major powers being principally America and its allies (the US, Britain, France, [West] Germany, and Japan) with the Russian Federation being the odd man out. What we see of the conflict era in RT sources suggests things were drawn up on similar lines.

And at any rate, we're not speaking of anything so operationally vital as fleet or command structures. This is "whatcha wanna name this?" Even within modern individual nations, politics, cult of personality, and money often have as much to say as any purely naval factor, and ofttimes more. [...]

True enough, but we're dealing with a scenario that - partly due to translation/adaptation contrivance and party as a result of the biases and personal interests of the original creators - is largely American-centric anyway.

Not to be too critical of the Macross franchise, which tends to be very good at creating verisimilitude, but that last sounds rather more interesting and just as likely as the system being "how 'Muhrica does it, if they threw other countries a bone now and then".

It makes a certain amount of sense for the setting, since America was one of the superpowers directly responsible for the UN Government and UN Forces, and where both organizations headquartered themselves. Admittedly, there are a lot more nods to other cultures ways of doing things in other aspects of the military organization. The rank system's mixing traits from American, Japanese, and British military tradition, with some confusing results for those who aren't familiar with the latter two.

First of all you're assuming only one language can be official, which is not the case.

In the context of military operations, there very likely IS one official language... oddly, in both Robotech and the original Macross, that language appears to be English. (MOSPEADA also seems to follow Macross with having the cast nominally speak English, though it's presented in Japanese. Southern Cross doesn't make it very clear, though the best candidate from the production materials appears to be French.)

Second of all, it doesn't matter what languages are official, and I'm a little disturbed you're of the opinion that how a name sounds when translated to a bunch of english-speakers is the be-all-end-all rule of what ship names from the entire rest of humanity are valid.

Unlike the aftermath of the Macross version of events, the surviving human population is presented as being a fairly homogenous lot. With the exception of the token ethnic characters like Captain Gloval and Doctor Lang, they presented most of the cast as implicitly or explicitly American in the Robotech version. Admittedly, it's not too different from the original, where almost the entire cast were Caucasians from America and Western Europe. What's being spoken as the dominant language is going to naturally color people's perceptions of acceptable names. That's English, for the most part. Just look at the list of ARMD names from the OSM... yeah, Britain and France are in there once each, Japan and Russia twice, but the bulk of it is American ship names.

[glitterboy2098]

Frankly, it's impossible to say how something like that would actually go, if for no other reason than we are completely unaware of the state of any given world power or faction for sure at the time the SDF-1 engendered an armistice in the Global War.

We can have a pretty good guess, thanks to the way things turned out in the Macross Saga and what we see of the state of affairs in the From the Stars limited comic series. Unsurprisingly, it seems like a situation similar in the basics to what Macross's creators conceived for the UN Wars and the eventual unification of Earth... the major powers being principally America and its allies (the US, Britain, France, [West] Germany, and Japan) with the Russian Federation being the odd man out. What we see of the conflict era in RT sources suggests things were drawn up on similar lines.

there is indications that russia wasn't directly involved in the global war.. in From the Stars the US carrier group is hunting gloval's sub because it is beleived the russians sold said sub to whatever enemy the US was fighting.. while Gloval's speech indicates that the russians had no such plans, and implies his sub was in the area for more mundane reasons.

not really conclusive obviously, but certainly hints that the global war was not a NATO vs russia conflict.

personally i've sometimes wondered, since that comic came out, whether the global war wasn't the result of China coming out of it's Cultural revolution, and instead of becoming the economic powerhouse we have today (which was mostly due to the efforts of Deng Xiaoping), and instead turned to increased militarism (as almost happened). had Hua Guofeng stayed in power, China might have ended up militarist, with increased soviet style industry.. but enough political outreach to get tech ties to other powers. from about 1980 onwards world politics would have been building towards a major conflict.. especially since Hua Guofeng had been one of the key figures in starting the Sino-Vietnamese conflict of 1972, when china invaded Vietnam. so invading other nearby nations wouldn't have been unlikely.
combined with the various conflicts in the middle east at the time and the general fallout of the soviet collapse, and you could easily have gotten a world spanning conflict.

[Sgt Anjay]

Frankly, it's impossible to say how something like that would actually go, if for no other reason than we are completely unaware of the state of any given world power or faction for sure at the time the SDF-1 engendered an armistice in the Global War.

We can have a pretty good guess, thanks to the way things turned out in the Macross Saga and what we see of the state of affairs in the From the Stars limited comic series.

No, we actually can't, the information is extreme in its paucity, depending on which version of Robotech one might be referring to. Though if you've some mysterious unknown text for detailed info on the nation states, their status's vis-a-vis the break in the timeline from ours to theirs, and their various alliances and how those played out in terms of the events of the Global War, feel free to actually site references to it.

And at any rate, we're not speaking of anything so operationally vital as fleet or command structures. This is "whatcha wanna name this?" Even within modern individual nations, politics, cult of personality, and money often have as much to say as any purely naval factor, and ofttimes more. [...]

True enough, but we're dealing with a scenario that - partly due to translation/adaptation contrivance and party as a result of the biases and personal interests of the original creators - is largely American-centric anyway.

Which doesn't change the fact that EVEN IN AMERICA, the AMERICAN system of ship naming is ignored when politics, money, and influence trump naval tradition. You throw in international input, and the variables increase exponentially. Clearly in-universe Japanese speakers have quite a bit of sway on ship names in Robotech, along with whoever it is championing the pervasive greco-roman theme...and in fact, "greco-roman" sounds like an excellent compromise for western nations to make when choosing names, since its the root of nearly all their civilizations.

Not to be too critical of the Macross franchise, which tends to be very good at creating verisimilitude, but that last sounds rather more interesting and just as likely as the system being "how 'Muhrica does it, if they threw other countries a bone now and then".

It makes a certain amount of sense for the setting

It makes a lot of sense for that setting; as I said, that franchise is very good at verisimilitude.

But this isn't that setting.

First of all you're assuming only one language can be official, which is not the case.

In the context of military operations, there very likely IS one official language

Tell that to...oh, I don't know...NATO? And plenty of organizations and operations have been undertaken multi-linguistically. In fact, some have even occurred multi-linguistically for reasons other than strict necessity, i.e. code-talkers.

Second of all, it doesn't matter what languages are official, and I'm a little disturbed you're of the opinion that how a name sounds when translated to a bunch of english-speakers is the be-all-end-all rule of what ship names from the entire rest of humanity are valid.

Unlike the aftermath of the Macross version of events, the surviving human population is presented as being a fairly homogenous lot.

Macross's take on the situation remains irrelevant. And how the human populace is presented is consistent with Robotech's origin, but time marches on, and anyway it doesn't matter because that's about as valid as saying that you have to take the cast of an early 80's sitcom as hard evidence of what the rest of the world within that sitcom is like. Uh, no. Just because main characters in a work of fiction with a given context are or were made "safe" and "familiar" doesn't mean we assume the whole world is such.

What's being spoken as the dominant language is going to naturally color people's perceptions of acceptable names. That's English, for the most part.

Er, no. First of all, the translation mattering enough to **** off a group with the power and influence to legitimately propose names for ships of the fleet is preposterous. If you name it the UES Niji, it's going the be the NIJI, NOT the Rainbow, so only any context built up by the word Niji matters. For non-japanese speakers that's going to be around zero. Names work like that. They don't generally speaking get translated. You don't call the character "To Shine", or worry about the implications of that word while watching the show. He's Hikaru, and the context ascribed there-of to a non-native speaker tends to be limited only to other encounters with those named Hikaru, not to the translation of the name into another language. To the native speaker there might be further implications; to the non-native speaker there is not.

If japanese-speakers with the power and influence to name ships of the space fleet...and, clearly, there were such within Robotech...then what the japanese-speakers think of the names is what's going to matter. And either way, you don't turn to a group with that sort of influence and then go "sorry, but your language's names are wussy" unless you're triyng to start problems for yourself.



By the way, Seto, please stop saying the names other cultures use are unfit. It's pretty insensitive, and not getting any less so.

[rem1093]

I have a Question about the Ikazuchi. Is it just a Carrier, as in just aircraft, or does it still carry ground mecha?

[Seto Kaiba]

Which doesn't change the fact that EVEN IN AMERICA, the AMERICAN system of ship naming is ignored when politics, money, and influence trump naval tradition. [...]

But we're talking about a setting where those things are apparently largely absent... the development of things like the fighters, destroids, and ships is shown to be done internally by the military and mostly under the cover of the deepest secrecy. (Or so we're told, though the RPG kind of waffles on just HOW secret the VF-1 was.) It's unlikely that there would be money or influence coming into the picture. Politics internal to the military, perhaps... but again it's a very America-centric military in Robotech.

Clearly in-universe Japanese speakers have quite a bit of sway on ship names in Robotech, along with whoever it is championing the pervasive greco-roman theme...and in fact, "greco-roman" sounds like an excellent compromise for western nations to make when choosing names, since its the root of nearly all their civilizations.

That's an awfully broad conclusion to reach when there are only a handful of ships named of a fleet shown to number something like five hundred ships of various classes. Then, of course, there's at least one case where a ship with an obviously Japanese name had its name (the Izumo) had a name change for the RTSC version and gained a more generic English name (SDF-4 Liberator).

It makes a lot of sense for that setting; as I said, that franchise is very good at verisimilitude.

But this isn't that setting.

No, it isn't that setting specifically... it's just one based on it, that spends most of its time treating the original as a "free idea bucket", that follows it to an extent some fans consider excessive or even obsessive. So we can't simply discard that.

And how the human populace is presented is consistent with Robotech's origin, but time marches on, and anyway it doesn't matter because that's about as valid as saying that you have to take the cast of an early 80's sitcom as hard evidence of what the rest of the world within that sitcom is like. [...]

When we're straight-up told that the small group of people we're shown are the sum total of humanity after a major interstellar war, it really is safe to say that the population we're shown is representative of the whole because that population IS the whole according to the series.

Uh, no. Just because main characters in a work of fiction with a given context are or were made "safe" and "familiar" doesn't mean we assume the whole world is such.

Ordinarily I would agree, and possibly point out that Macross actually goes the other way (most of the cast is foreigners), but this is one specific case where that objection doesn't hold as true as it normally would.

Er, no. First of all, the translation mattering enough to **** off a group with the power and influence to legitimately propose names for ships of the fleet is preposterous. If you name it the UES Niji, it's going the be the NIJI, NOT the Rainbow, so only any context built up by the word Niji matters. [...]

Proper nouns (like "Tokugawa") are a whole other kettle of fish, since there's nothing terribly unconventional about any given nation naming warships after famous military leaders. The limited sample we have is insufficient to determine if the isolated incidence we have of other Japanese names being used (basically just Ikazuchi at this juncture) are typical of the UEEF's naming conventions or are the exceptions to the rule.

By the way, Seto, please stop saying the names other cultures use are unfit. It's pretty insensitive, and not getting any less so.

You're the one putting that spin on what I'm saying. I'm not saying that at all... so any offense you're taking is purely a product of your own insinuations. Robotech is, by its creators own admission, originally a title which was actively hostile to its Japanese origins... they went to great lengths to Americanize everything, and remove any references to Japanese culture. Pretending that never happened in the context of Robotech's setting is ignoring some fairly important context. Thus far, Robotech's creative staff has very clearly taken the "because we think it sounds cool" strategy to naming the few ships that've actually been named, which has tended to leave names that sound a little less than intimidating in English (like Niji) out in the cold. The few cases of decidedly foreign names are either artifacts of the original shows or deliberate, purposeful references (like Shimakaze, the class in RT almost certainly being named for the equally experimental super-destroyer class from the WW2 era) which are left out of the actual animation in favor of more familiar Greco-Roman or English names.

[Seto Kaiba]

I have a Question about the Ikazuchi. Is it just a Carrier, as in just aircraft, or does it still carry ground mecha?

It's an aircraft carrier.

[Hystrix]

I have a Question about the Ikazuchi. Is it just a Carrier, as in just aircraft, or does it still carry ground mecha?

It's an aircraft carrier.

You mean except for the couple hundred ground mecha, and few thousand Cyclones. Other than those, yes, definatly "just" an aircraft carrier.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I have a Question about the Ikazuchi. Is it just a Carrier, as in just aircraft, or does it still carry ground mecha?

It's an aircraft carrier.

You mean except for the couple hundred ground mecha, and few thousand Cyclones. Other than those, yes, defiantly "just" an aircraft carrier.

It fills the same role as the Zentraedi Landing Ship, the "Quiltra Queleual", but with more ready launch mecha hangers, and less ship weapons.

[DhAkael]

I have a Question about the Ikazuchi. Is it just a Carrier, as in just aircraft, or does it still carry ground mecha?

It's an aircraft carrier.

You mean except for the couple hundred ground mecha, and few thousand Cyclones. Other than those, yes, defiantly "just" an aircraft carrier.

It fills the same role as the Zentraedi Landing Ship, the "Quiltra Queleual", but with more ready launch mecha hangers, and less ship weapons.

Sadly, the actual factual model-sheets from ARTMIC don't give us any real details aside from "many". Thus certain un-named purists will of course never be happy.
I say who cares and just use the stats as given in the original Sentinels book, and be done with it.

After all, Robotech is just a slap-dash cut & paste of 3 non-linked anime's together...it's not as if there's any TRUE canon for RT.

[rtsurfer]

Apparently they renamed it the Liberator for that mission as the hull is painted "Izumo"

[drewkitty ~..~]

If a word is a Name, then the Name is a proper noun. Meaning it is (can be) the object of the Sentence and is to be Capitalized, unless the proper way to spell that name is w/o caps., like drewkitty ~..~ .

Example of a named verb: "The Picard Maneuver".

[Seto Kaiba]

You mean except for the couple hundred ground mecha, and few thousand Cyclones. Other than those, yes, definatly "just" an aircraft carrier.

Not wishing to be sarcastic, I would like to point out that neither the stats in the Genesis Climber MOSPEADA original source material nor the official Robotech stats list any ground mecha or ride armors among the standard complement carried by the Ikazuchi-type carriers. They were, in the original material and thus the animation itself, mere aircraft carriers. To date, they have never been presented as carrying anything but aircraft, even in new, original Robotech animation.

It fills the same role as the Zentraedi Landing Ship, the "Quiltra Queleual", but with more ready launch mecha hangers, and less ship weapons.

Not really, no... the human-built Ikazuchi-class carries only transformable fighter aircraft. The Quiltra Queleual type Zentradi ship is officially classified as "Landing Ship, Tank" because it's complement is principally ground mecha. The ship has Gnerl fighter pods for defense, but most of what it carries are Regult and Glaug battle pods and the reentry pods needed to deploy them orbit-to-surface. They're rudely similar in that both were configured for an orbit-to-surface style deployment of mecha, but even in that the methodology's different.

Sadly, the actual factual model-sheets from ARTMIC don't give us any real details aside from "many". Thus certain un-named purists will of course never be happy.

Eh? Artmic had nothing to do with the Quiltra Queleual-class LSTs, and their animation model sheets for the carriers used by Mars Colony in MOSPEADA (the Ikazuchi type) are fairly precise about what they carry. They didn't go into the head-crushing level of detail that Macross did about some of its ships, but they're pretty precise about what the ships are actually armed with and carrying... the sole exception being the Izumo, which lists only armament, and doesn't describe its fighter complement. The only ships in the OSM that ferried Ride Armor troops from their staging areas on Luna were the Horizont-type drop shuttles, though some of the Garfish-type high-speed transport may have ferried the armors themselves in the supplies they carried for the invasions.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

To date, they have never been presented as carrying anything but aircraft, even in new, original Robotech animation.

You would be mistaken as they are shown at the beginning of The Shadow Chronicles lifting off from the surface of Mars. That hardly sounds like an aircraft carrier but more of a hybrid.

We even see them using ventral thrusters in Symphony of Light which would be totally unnecessary unless it were designed to land on a planet's surface.

[Seto Kaiba]

You would be mistaken as they are shown at the beginning of The Shadow Chronicles lifting off from the surface of Mars. That hardly sounds like an aircraft carrier but more of a hybrid.

Um... sorry, but no. I'm not mistaken, because that picture proves nothing except that, like most of the other ship classes that appear in Robotech, the Ikazuchi-class was able to land. Considering that many of the UEEF's bases in the solar system and greater galaxy have been shown to be on the surfaces of planetary bodies and moons, this would be very important to their ability to receive resupply and repairs. It does not establish or in any way demonstrate the existence of ground forces aboard those ships. The ships used by the UEDF during the Masters War were also shown to be able to land like that, but they didn't carry any ground forces to speak of either.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It fills the same role as the Zentraedi Landing Ship, the "Quiltra Queleual", but with more ready launch mecha hangers, and less ship weapons.

Not really, no... the human-built Ikazuchi-class carries only transformable fighter aircraft. The Quiltra Queleual type Zentraedi ship is officially classified as "Landing Ship, Tank" because it's complement is principally ground mecha. The ship has Gnerl fighter pods for defense, but most of what it carries are Regult and Glaug battle pods and the reentry pods needed to deploy them orbit-to-surface. They're rudely similar in that both were configured for an orbit-to-surface style deployment of mecha, but even in that the methodology's different.

The Ikazuchi Carrier also carries the ground troops, the Horizon-T landing craft and the fighter force for the UEEF. All the things the Quiltra Queleual did for the Zentraedi. Thus,.... If fills the same roll as the Quiltra Queleual.

Which should mean to launch it's force of mecha then get the out of range of any attacking mecha. Not stick around and take a pounding.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Ikazuchi Carrier also carries the ground troops, the Horizon-T landing craft and the fighter force for the UEEF.

Wow, there's a lot of blind assumptions being presented as fact here. Never once has an Ikazuchi been presented as carrying ground troops or the Horizon-T shuttles. Not once. Not even in RTSC. It's NEVER shown as carrying anything but Alphas, though circumstantial evidence indicates that the RTSC redesign carried a handful of Betas as well. In point of fact the only two ships in the entirety of RTSC's materials shown to carry any kind of shuttles or ground troops were the Tokugawa (which were only used for evacuation) and SDF-3 (which was only shown with ground troops, not shuttles.)

All the things the Quiltra Queleual did for the Zentraedi. Thus,.... If fills the same roll as the Quiltra Queleual.

Not really... the Ikazuchi was shown to be helpless as a cruiser even though it had anti-ship turrets. The Quiltra Queleual is shown to be able to take a pounding and dish one out as well, principally deploying reentry pods from the hangar decks aboard for orbit-to-surface assault. Rather a different operating profile from the Ikazuchi, which was deploying aerospace fighters AND NOTHING ELSE.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Ikazuchi Carrier also carries the ground troops, the Horizon-T landing craft and the fighter force for the UEEF.

Wow, there's a lot of blind assumptions being presented as fact here. Never once has an Ikazuchi been presented as carrying ground troops or the Horizon-T shuttles. Not once. Not even in RTSC. It's NEVER shown as carrying anything but Alphas, though circumstantial evidence indicates that the RTSC redesign carried a handful of Betas as well. In point of fact the only two ships in the entirety of RTSC's materials shown to carry any kind of shuttles or ground troops were the Tokugawa (which were only used for evacuation) and SDF-3 (which was only shown with ground troops, not shuttles.)

The text in the game book, in this case, trumps observed footage in the RTSC. Because of the PoV of the movie basically precludes them showing the ground assault elements.

All the things the Quiltra Queleual did for the Zentraedi. Thus,.... If fills the same roll as the Quiltra Queleual.

Not really... the Ikazuchi was shown to be helpless as a cruiser even though it had anti-ship turrets. The Quiltra Queleual is shown to be able to take a pounding and dish one out as well, principally deploying reentry pods from the hangar decks aboard for orbit-to-surface assault. Rather a different operating profile from the Ikazuchi, which was deploying aerospace fighters AND NOTHING ELSE.

Which is Why I continued my idea to more then what was quoted.
Whether it fills the same roll or not does not preclude it being a wimp of a ship, when compared to other ships that fill the same roll.

[Seto Kaiba]

The text in the game book, in this case, trumps observed footage in the RTSC. Because of the PoV of the movie basically precludes them showing the ground assault elements.

Like a disturbing amount of what's in the game books, that's something that lands firmly in the territory known as "what the hell show were they watching?". It's not quite as hilariously absurd as the suggestion that the SDF-4's synchro cannon has more firepower than anything except the Grand Cannon, but it's up there. In any event, the remarks by me that others had taken such pains to object to were specific to the depiction of the Ikazuchi. After all, just because a ship hasn't done something and clearly wasn't designed to doesn't mean it can't do it in a pinch... like how the old Yorktown-class carriers were never designed to launch something as large as B-25s, but with a little seat-of-the-pants improv it wasn't out of the question.

Which is Why I continued my idea to more then what was quoted.

Yes, but I like to cut to the root of a problem instead of tackling the entire thing all at once.

Whether it fills the same roll or not does not preclude it being a wimp of a ship, when compared to other ships that fill the same roll.

On this, sir, I agree wholeheartedly... I've always wanted to ask the mechanical designers for MOSPEADA why they did several of the things they did, and making the ships so totally helpless has always been near the top of that list.

[Seto Kaiba]

At least TSC gave them a solid point defense array... [...]

Either you're using some definition of "solid" that neither I nor the writers of the great English dictionaries have heard of, or you may need to review the actual contents of the movie. The "point defense array" that the Ikazuchi-class and the other UEEF ships gained in their Shadow Chronicles redesigns is marginally less solid than a biscuit raft. Do they ever actually hit anything? They consistently miss the slow, ponderous Invid fighter scouts at point blank range throughout the movie.

they just weren't intended to function against anything but Invid, [...]

If their performance is any indication, they weren't intended to function against anything...

Even stranger, the Shimakaze is a newer ship, and yet the only point defense it got was around the back of the command tower. What was the point of that?!

Bad design is endemic in the UEEF ships of the Shadow Chronicles movie. Why does the Ikazuchi-class have its guns set up such that more than half are unable to fire in any direction other than to starboard? Why does every ship but the Garfish have exclusively dorsal armament? Why are the synchro cannons talked up like they're the next big thing for beam weaponry when they're shown to be barely better than the standard Zentradi beam turrets? Why do the UEEF's all-important transport shuttles have no defenses to speak of and no means of escaping an enemy without a larger ship in the vicinity? Why is the galaxy's sole source of fuel on a front-line battleship?

I could go on like this for a long time.

If I had to guess, based on the way UEEF ships are depicted, the bridge was the only area afforded CIWS turrets because only the bridge actually matters in terms of starship operation. The hundreds or thousands of other crew allegedly on the UEEF ships are either illusory or just there for show, apparently.

Interestingly enough, the RPG writeup does mention point defense, but it say only eight laser based guns along the center line, when TSC showed something else entirely, far more than eight guns, that were apparently projectile based, and dual mounted to projections at the corners and along the flanks?

On the Shimakaze? The only point defense guns it has in the series are the ones shown around the bridge tower. It also tried to address the few Haydonite fighters harassing it with its VLS missile launchers and its sole anti-ship turret with marginal success. The larger ships like the Ikazuchi only have 'em at the corners of the hull.

Did we see any point defense at all on the Garfish in Prelude or TSC?

AotSC says the Garfish-class has a few, but they're not used IIRC. They're allegedly under circular covers on the ship's upper hull.

As for ground troops, while there isn't any proof of their existence in the animation we have, the RPG is clearly it's own world, [...]

The major bullet point of "make it as close to the animation as possible" for 2e digs a very large hole in that assertion.

[glitterboy2098]

even in MOSPEADA, odds are it was carrying more than just alpha's.. unless you want to assume the mars forces intended to take on the most heavily defended point on occupied earth, and then hold it, with only a couple thousand alpha's and a few hundred infantry carried in shuttles.

[jaymz]

My general preference is that all Ikazuchi's carry only a modest number of troops, 500-600 at most (call it a battalion or so), but that some Ikazuchi's are actually a subtype more focused on landing troops than launching fighters instead. If we had something like an Alpha in Battloid mode with heavy armor and direct fire weapons we could use the OSM based Alpha Quick Launch Bay models for assault carriers, and the TSC Legios Rapid Deployment Bays for the carrier role instead. I admit to preferring Garfish's as escorts to landing ships though, and in my settings there is a variant that is treated as an Assault Landing Frigate that swaps the Alpha bay out for a troop bay instead.) (I toyed around with a bay carrying a Horizon instead of Alpha's, but it doesn't quite fit, and a single Horizon-T isn't really the equal of 6-9 Alphas, especially since the Legios wouldn't fit underneath.)

The only way to explain the number of ground troops already on the ground for Reflex point is to A ) assume it was in fact all done by Horizonts that managed to run the blockade (feasibility is high if they went in cold without escort as the Invid seemed to leave unarmed people and vehicles alone by and large) and since this is precisely how they tried at the beginning of New Gen (only WITH escorts) it is definite possibility... or B ) an unknown ship type that were haven't seen and landed off camera to debark those troops. Personally I am likely to go with Option A....especially if they chose to enter the atmosphere say on the opposite side of the planet then hightail it at low altitude across the globe since re-entry seems to be where they failed previously. Lord knows the Invid weren't all that bright in some ways.

Seeing as we don't see destroids, we cannot assume they are there as this seems to be the type of attack that involves the use of speed and hitting the vital points as quickly as possible. Also, iirc, Prelude (which is canon) does not not show any Destroids and even the Silverback seems to be used more in a command role than in any kind of fire support or heavy infantry role.


Sidenote for Gryphon - I came up with a gunship variant of the Horizont that will certainly be the equal of 9 alphas

[ShadowLogan]

The only way to explain the number of ground troops already on the ground for Reflex point is to A ) assume it was in fact all done by Horizonts that managed to run the blockade (feasibility is high if they went in cold without escort as the Invid seemed to leave unarmed people and vehicles alone by and large) and since this is precisely how they tried at the beginning of New Gen (only WITH escorts) it is definite possibility... or B ) an unknown ship type that were haven't seen and landed off camera to debark those troops.

I'm not sure that is the only way to explain the number of ground troops as one also has to consider:
C). Shadow equipped versions of existing ships could also explain it. While Shadow Device isn't a perfect cloak (standard visual sensors defeat), it greatly enhances the ability to slip in and out.

D). The ground forces are survivors from previous (failed) assualts. IIRC in "Reflex Point" an Invid map of NA shows forces converging on RP, also cuts to "dark" VR-052s (like Sue's "dark" VR-038), though wheater these units actually have Shadow Tech or not. I bring this up because until this point the only Dark Cyclones we see are VR-041s (Nader Jr, Lancer), the VR-038 isn't seen outside of Sue/Rook (so no idea about paint jobs), and all the VR-052s are painted the blue-green-white tone. Even the ground forces at RP in the last two episodes are using stock painted VR-052s instead of the "dark" job seen in Ep83.

E). Dialogue overlay of the (previously mentioned NA ) map though talks of a new human fleet converging from deep space so the map could be taken to show forces landing from several different directions. Weather those are shadow or regular ships I don't know since once spotted the Invid could certainly track them visually. Still it opens the possibility that instead of trying to rush from one direction, the fleet came in from multiple angles to get forces onto the ground forcing the Invid to dilute their response to managable levels by the individual elements.

The biggest problem with E is the lack of reusing it for the assault on RP, if the Invid where to have shown to being vulnerable to this attack formation it would only make sense for the fleet to duplicate it for the final assault.

[jaymz]

C ) that would likely be done in conjunction with A

D ) IIRC survivors of previous assaults didn't exactly have stellar communication capabilities unless something changed and it seems unlikely that many troops would be form previous assaults if Scott's assault at the beginning of New Gen is any indication

E ) Still sort of ties into A to some degree


Also we have TSC which shows, at least to me, a significantly smaller fleet in orbit to deal with the attack on Reflex Point....

[Seto Kaiba]

3,000 Cyclones and 1,700 Marines from the RPG write up of an Ikazuchi want a word with you.

It can have a word... that word is "fallacious". It's not exactly a secret that Palladium's standard of research is somewhere south of abysmal when it comes to licensed titles like Robotech or Macross II. They try damn hard, but much of what they commit to paper is just abject nonsense. Like the coverage of the SDF-4 in Genesis Pits, which claims its synchro cannon is the second only to the Grand Cannon in terms of firepower... something the animation of RTSC puts a lie to with childish ease.

Seriously, the OSM never showed it cause it didn't exist. Fine. But the mere presence of the Cyclone and Silverback troops in Prelude, and the Cyclones aboard most UEEF vessels makes it clear things changed.[...]

Let's take careful stock of what ship those Cyclones and Silverback troops were stationed on... the SDF-3 Pioneer, after its year-long retrofit. It's not surprising that a ship that has, as one of its main design features, a pair of sizable drop-ships on its flanks would be carrying infantry and light armored support. But that's the SDF-frigging-3. She's one of a kind, and she is the ONLY ship ever shown to do that.

The OSM wasn't an interstellar conflict, and the Alpha was apparently intended to do everything, with the Cyclone being a survival tool. [...]

And we're back to the status quo... check thy facts before thou post-eth. The battle in the OSM was not interstellar, yes, but the Legioss armo-fighter was an air support unit and the main combat unit was the Ride Armor (which is why Horizonts outnumbered all other types of ship). The Ikazuchi-type ships were there to provide escort coverage for the shuttles carrying the all-important ground forces.

In Robotech though, ground forces are required, and the Silverback and Cyclone fulfill that requirement. [...]

Which is the exact opposite of what Robotech, and especially RTSC, show us... they show us a situation where the Alpha (Shadow type) is the dominant battlefield unit and the ground forces are basically a largely ignored footnote to the actual conflict. When was the last time you watched/read any of this stuff anyway?

even in MOSPEADA, odds are it was carrying more than just alpha's.. unless you want to assume the mars forces intended to take on the most heavily defended point on occupied earth, and then hold it, with only a couple thousand alpha's and a few hundred infantry carried in shuttles.

Sorry, but you're off on a few counts here. For one, the official coverage of the Ikazuchi pattern carriers indicates a far smaller size for the ship than what RT erroneously claims. For two, that same OSM information is rather clear about all that went into the 2nd Earth Recapture operation. There were a lot more than a few hundred infantry involved. The 2nd recapture operation force we see was meant to secure a beachhead for a large-scale invasion of Earth, and it still had an impressive number of transports... they outnumbered any other class of ship involved 4 to 1. Just in that force, there are (based on OSM numbers) at least 4,000 armored infantry if each Horizont is only being used to half capacity. That means that the land forces outnumbered the Legioss units involved in the operation more than 2 to 1 at the low end estimate.

Spoiler:

Based on known information about the force dispatched from the lunar staging area, we can make a fairly precise estimate of its troop composition. Like the D-Day landings that are so often homaged in unit markings and such, the unit from Mars Colony was meant to secure a beachhead, not take the entire planet.

10 Ikazuchi-type carriers, 40 Garfish-type high speed transporters, and 160 Horizont descent shuttles, and an escorting force of 200 Legioss units means a total of 2,000 Legioss units (1,440 in Ikazuchi carriers, 360 aboard the force's Garfish transporters, 200 combiner escorts), supporting at least 4,000 assault pod carried infantry (possibly around 8,000, depending on how the pods are configured) plus whatever's carried aboard the transporters and in shuttle crew areas.

The only way to explain the number of ground troops already on the ground for Reflex point is to A ) assume it was in fact all done by Horizonts that managed to run the blockade (feasibility is high if they went in cold without escort as the Invid seemed to leave unarmed people and vehicles alone by and large) and since this is precisely how they tried at the beginning of New Gen (only WITH escorts) it is definite possibility. [...]

Let's not forget that there were returning ground forces from the Expeditionary Fleets trapped on Earth after the Masters War ended and the Invid showed up, and the survivors from the previous two attempts to take the planet that make up a decent portion of even Scott's merry band of do-gooders. There was a SIZABLE body of troops stranded on Earth as the result of various military operations... enough for Wolfe to make a frigging city for them at the Invid's behest.

I'm not sure that is the only way to explain the number of ground troops as one also has to consider:
C). Shadow equipped versions of existing ships could also explain it. While Shadow Device isn't a perfect cloak (standard visual sensors defeat), it greatly enhances the ability to slip in and out.

This is dubious, as shadow technology is shown and said to be something of a recent introduction to the UEEF forces when the Battle of Reflex Point took place... except for the advance scouts seen mere days before the battle, it's unlikely there were large-scale landings conducted. The Invid had no trouble spotting the UEEF fleet even with its shadow cloak...

[Seto Kaiba]

The point defense I was referring to was that of the Ikazuchi and Izumo/Liberator, not the Shimakaze, which has anemic point defense in bad positions at best. The Izumo could have upwards of 56 point defense guns. [...]

Just curious, but where the heck do you come up with these numbers? The Liberator CG model art in AotSC looks to have about two dozen point defense guns in total. It would be consistent with the established design practice in same, a tendency to only put the point-defense guns on the outermost corners of the hull, as on the Ikazuchi.

The Ikazuchi is a bit harder to be sure, since there appear to be about 20 or so guns, sixteen in point defense towers, and during the battles we can see additional guns along the flanks, though not apparently many of them. [...]

I'll ask again, where the hell do you come up with this stuff? The Ikazuchi CG model clearly only has the eight point defense guns identified in the stats. They're visible on the corners of the hull. Eight guns. Eight single-barreled guns... not 20.

And the performance of the guns isn’t dictated by their ability at all, but by the plot. [...]

The demonstrated performance of the guns is an indicator of their ability. Against the Haydonites or the Invid, none of the point-defense guns that were added to the UEEF ships score a kill. None. Even in Macross Frontier, where there is a recurring theme of "our weapons are useless!", the point defense guns manage to score multiple kills in mere seconds after opening fire. Compare that to the point-defense guns in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, where the point defense guns on the UEEF ships are incapable of hitting the comparatively slow-moving Invid fighter scouts at point-blank ranges. Not just when it's dramatic for an enemy to be too evasive, as in when the Haydonites were harrying the Icarus... every damn time, even when Invid were flying in dead level, straight-line trajectories.

I always hated the concept of the massive command…hump, for the Ikazuchi, it does block entirely too much of the ships firing arcs. It might be mainly a carrier, but if you are going to put antiship guns on something, they might as well have a point really. [...]

By any indication, from both the series and the movie, the anti-ship guns on all UEEF ships are completely decorative and have no offensive or defensive value to speak of. Maybe that's why they're so into the synchro cannons... literally every other weapon in the UEEF fleet is useless. They don't even TRY to use 'em in RTSC.

I do have to wonder why you are so severely underestimating Synchro cannons though? We see what, three actual impacts, one against a hive that it utterly obliterates, one against a string of Invid mecha that are all vaporized, and the last against a ship that partially gets out of the way, and still ends up being a mission kill. [...]

I'm not underestimating anything, Gryphon. I just have my facts straight.

We see a lot more than three synchro cannon impacts.

• Yes, the turret based synchro cannon in the series destroys quite a few Invid, but they had to be in a tight, and highly linear formation for that to happen. Invid are armored with sugar wafers and wishful thinking, and can be readily taken out with man-portable rocket launchers and small arms fire. That's not impressive.
• Ambushing the Tokugawa and blasting a hole in it isn't all that impressive either. The Tokugawa-class ships were explicitly identified as being sub-par warships at the best of times, so much so that the UEEF relegated them to rear echelon supply duties. The Tokugawa was a joke, a sitting duck sent up against a deadly new gunship. That it was not destroyed outright is an indicator of how undercapable the synchro cannon really is.
• Wiping out the Invid hive Edwards had "borrowed" for his own use on Optera isn't terribly impressive either. The hive's not shielded the way the ones on Earth were, and wasn't defended worth a damn either. They needed two of the largest synchro cannons ever built to destroy a largely defenseless target, and they're shown as needing a decent charge-up for that level of destructive power. In what way is that better than a reflex cannon?
• The synchro cannon discharges against the Invid carriers are pathetic. Downright pathetic. They just poke holes in those ships, and the movie itself shows us that those ships have armor SO PATHETICALLY WEAK that the Alpha's missiles can gouge huge holes in them. The ships aren't annihilated the way reflex cannons ERASE Zentradi ships from existence, there's just a neat little survivable hole poked in the middle... and this is with the support of what we're told is the UEEF's largest and most powerful synchro cannon EVER. We see those little, itty-bitty Zentradi beam turrets do more damage to enemy ships than that.
• And let's not forget the firing of the synchro cannons at the Haydonites, which even before the Haydonites triggered their disruptor wave was marginally less dangerous than a laser light show.

Overall, they aren’t really that bad in use, but the ability to simply puff it dies any target makes for a poor narrative really, so they had to be made to appear to be less than fully effective.

Your excuse doesn't tally with the evidence even slightly.

It isn’t a factor of status quo, though I recognize what you mean, and honestly, I’m getting tired of your poor attitude chief. It’s a matter of watching the show, which showed Cyclones being effective combat units only in Scott’s group’s hands. [...]

There are some Cyclone riders at the Battle of Reflex Point who would disprove that statement heartily... other groups of survivors from the 1st and 2nd ERF, etc. Honestly, check your facts before you make assertions like this and my attitude might be a little cheerier. It's really depressing having to dole out so many corrections so often.

And finally, I read the RPG books, which is my main interest in the setting, all the time chief. I have watched some of the series of recent, if only to research it a bit. [...]

That explains a lot, actually...

But the base factor is that the OSM =/= Robotech, and the animated series, the comics, Prelude and TSC are also not the same as the RPG, however closely you might want them to be.

Let me step off my soapbox and point out the gap between what you're asserting here and objective reality.

Ultimately, the OSM may not "be" Robotech... but it DOES dictate virtually everything in Robotech. This is kinda like saying a dictionary itself is not the language, it's just a definitive and indisputable foundation for it. Likewise, the RPG's stated goal (2nd Edition) was to reflect, as closely as possible, the content of the Robotech official continuity... that means the animated series, the canon comics, and the Shadow Chronicles materials. The RPG is not a separate entity from Robotech proper, because the very goal of its existence is to provide game content that accurately reflects that show's contents. When it differs from the series, that doesn't mean it's somehow a separate universe. It just means they didn't check their facts properly.

[Deathknight69]

Thanks for all of the info Guys.

Let's play nice folks, We don't want to get unwanted attention down here.