Four Horsemen

[Eashamahel]

So, I am considering having my new PC group take a storyline which would see them eventually head to Africa and take part in the grand crusade against the Four Horsemen. I'm thinking this would go through England, so they can take part in the court at New Camelot which decides to send troops to support the cause, very similar to the story arc presented by the release of those books. I have never actually run anything seriously including the Horsemen before. I have done foreshadowing in other games (I am running a second group of PCs who are in the same time period), and will in this as well, with a rise in psychic visions of doom, death cults out in the open, ect, and even setting up some NPC villains who will re-appear later, but, again, have no experience with the actual Horsemen.

My question is, what is it like to include them directly in your games? Myself and some of my fellow experienced gamers have joked about them for years, often the first thing we do when a new supplement comes out is open up Africa and see what zany new things the Horsemen can now pull off (think Federation of Magic new spells, Psyscape new Psionics, ect), and joke about some ridiculous idea, but the idea of putting a group of PCs against them has always seemed ludicrous in one of two ways.

Either the PCs can't accomplish anything directly, most likely due to the speed at which the Horsemen recover, or they can steamroll a Horseman with little difficulty and it seems kind of silly. The reason for either is that, to me, it has always seemed that the Horsemen, while individually very powerful, are basically just very pumped up versions of basic supernatural baddies right out of the old monster generator, which means that they share similiar weaknesses. By that I don't mean the 10x damage from Millenium Tree items, but rather, their sphere of threat seems very narrow. Most (or maybe all?) have some kind of touch attack based off of their type, but that's about it for specialty abilities (as far as I can remember, can't seem to find my copy of Africa this morning...), and after that it's back to the Horsemen doing the same old punch, shoot lightning and cast spells, short ranged and one-at-a-time mostly.

When foreshadowing the Horsemen, I like to have some lesser version of their Apocalypse Demon special world wide powers in effect, all the way to the more biblical levels of raining blood, stillborns, the recently dead rising form their graves ect on the day of their summoning, and an increase in tensions between nations, poor harvests, droughts, insect swarms, restless dead, ect thereafter. Basically, instead of the world being fine until the Apocalypse Demon ends it, the idea being that the world gets worse the longer they are on it.


So, what are everyone else' experiences with the Horsemen, either running games with them or playing in games against them? Any suggestions or tricks to get the most out of them? Pitfalls to avoid?

[Grell]

I'm actually prepping a campaign involving the grand crusade as well. I'd like to hear more of your development process though. I like the idea of going through England and being part of their deployed crusaders.

[JTwig]

When foreshadowing the Horsemen, I like to have some lesser version of their Apocalypse Demon special world wide powers in effect, all the way to the more biblical levels of raining blood, stillborns, the recently dead rising form their graves ect on the day of their summoning, and an increase in tensions between nations, poor harvests, droughts, insect swarms, restless dead, ect thereafter. Basically, instead of the world being fine until the Apocalypse Demon ends it, the idea being that the world gets worse the longer they are on it.

All of this should be added as background to enhance the story. You don't really need any rules for incorporating it, as most of it is just flavor that enhances the setting. There are some demons from a Chaos Earth setting which are basically lesser Apoc demons, and only begin to show up on planets/dimensions when the end is near. Having them start appear worldwide, especially if you included their background lore, would also add to the tension of the storyline.

[Eashamahel]

Hmm, I don't have a real solid memory of the Chaos Earth demons with the exception that they seemed very well done, with actual weaknesses and such being more than just '2x damage from X', I will definately check them out again.

The specific setting of Rifts: Africa is apparently made to cover the Apocalypse demons weaknesses. The Phoenix Empire particularly seems to exist to deal with the Horsemen's lack of ability to deal with large numbers/technology. On their own, the Horsemen are powerful individuals, but don't really have a solution to people flying around shooting them, let alone more than a small well armed group, besides being crazy tough/regenerating until the attacker runs out of ammo. The Phoenix empire deals with that, providing the Horsemen with an army of powerful monsters and technology who seem to follow them around and protect them (but not too close, because the Horsemen would still kill them if they could), but then it seems like the Horsemen themselves are hardly the threat, instead it's the Phoenix Empire, which is basically just a second string Atlantis who apparently don't have Lore:Demons and Monsters themselves to realize they are ending their own world.

[rat_bastard]

My advice is to have the players search for Horseman slaying Maguffins rather than fight the creatures personally. The fact is each one is a pretty boring wall of MDC that takes hours to erode that gets sooo freaking tiresome after a while. Have your player destroy magic pillars that keep them in this realm or find a god forged weapon to destroy them.

[Eashamahel]

Honestly, if I was to suggest someone do the old 'magic sword' or as you said 'god forged weapon' system, I would encourage that GM to have their players work to engage the NGR into the conflict. Not much does more damage than supersonic bombers or power armours with rotating drum missile systems. Failing that, trying to convince the monsters in the Phoenix Empire that they are sealing their own doom would be a great help as well.

The hilarious 'x10 from Millenium Tree weapons' damage that the horsemen take is a great diversion for players. Everyone that first reads it thinks that's the way to victory, but even 2D6x10 is nothing when you have to close into the creatures perfect threat range (touch). The Millenium Trees are great lead ins to the Horsemen though, they might be more sensitive to the arrival of the Horsemen themselves, can pass premonitions and psychic warnings on to the people inhabiting them, and generally serve to be a great jumping point for an adventure, seeing as how they are in England, large numbers of 'Old Religion' types, Druids of all stripes, going to talk at New Camelot about a growing threat helps start off the Crusade.

[rat_bastard]

Honestly, if I was to suggest someone do the old 'magic sword' or as you said 'god forged weapon' system, I would encourage that GM to have their players work to engage the NGR into the conflict. Not much does more damage than supersonic bombers or power armours with rotating drum missile systems. Failing that, trying to convince the monsters in the Phoenix Empire that they are sealing their own doom would be a great help as well.

The hilarious 'x10 from Millenium Tree weapons' damage that the horsemen take is a great diversion for players. Everyone that first reads it thinks that's the way to victory, but even 2D6x10 is nothing when you have to close into the creatures perfect threat range (touch). The Millenium Trees are great lead ins to the Horsemen though, they might be more sensitive to the arrival of the Horsemen themselves, can pass premonitions and psychic warnings on to the people inhabiting them, and generally serve to be a great jumping point for an adventure, seeing as how they are in England, large numbers of 'Old Religion' types, Druids of all stripes, going to talk at New Camelot about a growing threat helps start off the Crusade.

The x10 damage range is all fun and games until your players make a boom gun slug out of it.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, but to do that you have to chop up a gift from the Millenium Tree, which then means that, most likely, the tree wouldn't have given you this great gift to begin with, or alternatively, you stole someone else's gift, then chopped it up into ammo. I think if you follow the design philosophy of Rifts, especially early on when it's pretty much all Kevin S. doing it, you would most likely be the possessor of a bunch of inert material, as the magical properties would most likely leave, unless you could make a straight up 'corrupted' piece. Not that I am criticizing your idea at all, it was one of the first ones we all thought up when we first read the book, and doesn't have any explicit reason for why it wouldn't work (though the damage is kind of up in the air). It is a good reason to have your GB with some silver rounds, especially since the GB can hand load individual rounds.

[rat_bastard]

Yeah, but to do that you have to chop up a gift from the Millenium Tree, which then means that, most likely, the tree wouldn't have given you this great gift to begin with, or alternatively, you stole someone else's gift, then chopped it up into ammo. I think if you follow the design philosophy of Rifts, especially early on when it's pretty much all Kevin S. doing it, you would most likely be the possessor of a bunch of inert material, as the magical properties would most likely leave, unless you could make a straight up 'corrupted' piece. Not that I am criticizing your idea at all, it was one of the first ones we all thought up when we first read the book, and doesn't have any explicit reason for why it wouldn't work (though the damage is kind of up in the air). It is a good reason to have your GB with some silver rounds, especially since the GB can hand load individual rounds.

You don't have to chop up anything. Herbalists can shape wood as part of the Millennium Tree granted powers and any tree that wants to protect the earth from mega demons should be more than willing to drop a throwing stick or a staff.

[Eashamahel]

That does make sense, and should be a pivotal part, but the baddies of Rifts just don't seem to want to interfere. Atlantis seemed content to sit back and lose the planet, the Vampire Intelligences felt the same, and the monsters that make up the Phoenix Empire seem to be under a better umbrella of propaganda than the citizens of the CS. To me, it seemed that this was a great chance for said baddies to rise up and stop them, as only a few groups would possibly actively support the Horsemen, the Blood Druids being one group, and Death Cultists being the other.

It does raise the question of whether or not the Apocalypse Demons actually want to destroy true demons, or Alien Intelligences and undead creatures. I seem to remember 'all life' being the definition, and Pharoh Rama Set being the only exception (or maybe it was him and other true death cultists?).

[Tor]

Out of the four Apocalypse Demons, who would you say is the dirtiest player in the game, Pestilence?

[Eashamahel]

Rick Flair?

[Eashamahel]

Rick Flair?

Oh wait, that's the Four Horsemen.


I seem to remember Famine being the easiest to defeat, with Pestilence not to far behind. War could have been awesome if he could have possessed vehichles with people currently driving them (pretty sure they have to be un-occupied), or more than one thing at once. The image of War inhabiting a giant robot, with a small army of Dyna Bots or Skelebots all melded to look like him as well, is an awesome one. His robot fighting, being slowly destroyed, then at the last instant grabbing ahold of one of the other robots he is battling and becoming it is a great one, as is the idea of people near to him eventually becoming blood mad killers, troops and adventurers sent to destroy him marching beside him, their weapons and armour having taken on his likeness. None of that is how it is actually supposed to work, but it would be awesome.

Death is by far my favourite Horseman. First of all, you can actually include him in your games, due to his not attacking first, he can be in the middle of a situation, be menacing, taunt people, whatever needs to happen. Second, he can actually have minions/an army, through his animating the dead, but that is unfortunately too limited to be of much use. His Nightmare Zombies were neat, but with the time it takes to construct one it's not like he is going to have an army of them or anything. If I had a chance to re-do it, and how I will probably work it, the dead he raises would be hyper-powerful and twisted, simple human corpses with huge jaws, elongate fangs, ect, and his using the ability would see conglomerations rise from corpse piles and combine on their own. Basically, he would 'Raise Dead' Nightmare Zombies, and anything that was actually dead within X distance would rise from it's grave just by him being around, which he could either choose to command and control, or send out on it's own to destroy. Also, Death would/will have the ability to merge with and speak through any corpse, similiar to War's link with Machines.

[Alrik Vas]

Rick Flair?

Oh wait, that's the Four Horsemen.


I seem to remember Famine being the easiest to defeat, with Pestilence not to far behind. War could have been awesome if he could have possessed vehichles with people currently driving them (pretty sure they have to be un-occupied), or more than one thing at once. The image of War inhabiting a giant robot, with a small army of Dyna Bots or Skelebots all melded to look like him as well, is an awesome one. His robot fighting, being slowly destroyed, then at the last instant grabbing ahold of one of the other robots he is battling and becoming it is a great one, as is the idea of people near to him eventually becoming blood mad killers, troops and adventurers sent to destroy him marching beside him, their weapons and armour having taken on his likeness. None of that is how it is actually supposed to work, but it would be awesome.

Death is by far my favourite Horseman. First of all, you can actually include him in your games, due to his not attacking first, he can be in the middle of a situation, be menacing, taunt people, whatever needs to happen. Second, he can actually have minions/an army, through his animating the dead, but that is unfortunately too limited to be of much use. His Nightmare Zombies were neat, but with the time it takes to construct one it's not like he is going to have an army of them or anything. If I had a chance to re-do it, and how I will probably work it, the dead he raises would be hyper-powerful and twisted, simple human corpses with huge jaws, elongate fangs, ect, and his using the ability would see conglomerations rise from corpse piles and combine on their own. Basically, he would 'Raise Dead' Nightmare Zombies, and anything that was actually dead within X distance would rise from it's grave just by him being around, which he could either choose to command and control, or send out on it's own to destroy. Also, Death would/will have the ability to merge with and speak through any corpse, similiar to War's link with Machines.

Yes. Absolutely. All about it. When do we play?

[Tor]

Famine: turns all humanity into Cryback

[Eashamahel]

Yes. Absolutely. All about it. When do we play?

Um, if you live in Toronto, we play every weekend and several wednesdays?

[J_Danger]

Our GM introduced us to the horseman by defending a town while Pestilence attacked it. We were just holding him off until the villagers evacuated, but in the end, we saw an opportunity and surprised our GM by actually killing him. It was our unskilled vagabond with no super powers, riding on his SDC motorcycle, wearing his SDC leather jacket who charged Pestilence and threw a satchel of fusion blocks into his vortex attack that landed the killing blow!

[Subjugator]

Rat has the right of it. Use MacGuffins and have the party destroy their links to this plane rather than the creatures themselves.

For the final, epic battle for the last linchpin, rather than have them try and fight them in hand to hand combat (NOT the way your players should be fighting the Four frickin' Horsemen of the frickin' Apocalypse) or even in ranged combat (not that either!), you should have them defeat some significant yard trash to put the shard in the Dark Crystal, call in an uber air strike, or make Death Gargle Chichen Itza water. It should not be solved through base megadamage.

Threats to the planet are not handled in a toe to toe battle between the boss guy and the best of the players in a grudge match. As much as video game writers want that to be the case, it's bullcrap.

/Sub

[Eashamahel]

It's also hard to believe the Horsemen as credible threats on the way to their merging into the Apocalypse demon in the wake of the books that came afterwards. The CS has a million man army? Free Quebec has thousands of Glitterboys? There is a city of dragons? Seems like these horsemen are hardly a threat to any of those, so minor in fact that PC groups can actually FIGHT them. Now, they shouldn't be fighting them, because the Horsemen should be teleporting/invisibly flying/running like hell to the point where they can join up and destroy the world, thus accomplishing their goal of killing everything, but because NO ONE can fight them once they HAVE merged, the Horsemen have to take strange and minor detours to pollute small rivers, wither fields which feed dozens(Oh No!) of people, and construct (one at a time) 'super Zombies' that aren't a match for pretty much anything.

Their original character is much closer to that of what Rifts originally was. They were a real threat. There was no real army in that area to oppose them. PC's had to gather with other 'heroes' to defeat them. For Rifts now though, or even not so long after that, they do better as truly super beings (perhaps energy beings which can create physical forms and are not slain when those forms are destroyed, similiar to the physical body the Apocalypse demon can create?) who play from the shadows, over the long term, and have actual minions/can turn others to their purposes.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's also hard to believe the Horsemen as credible threats on the way to their merging into the Apocalypse demon in the wake of the books that came afterwards. The CS has a million man army? Free Quebec has thousands of Glitterboys? There is a city of dragons? Seems like these horsemen are hardly a threat to any of those, so minor in fact that PC groups can actually FIGHT them.

The CS has always been pretty huge.
As of SB1, they had something like 1.4-2.4 million dogboys alone.

Then again, the Apocalypse beast can "unleash disease, weather and disaster that covers 40,000 square miles at a time," so that's still pretty impressive.
Assuming it crossed the ocean.

[cornholioprime]

It's also hard to believe the Horsemen as credible threats on the way to their merging into the Apocalypse demon in the wake of the books that came afterwards. The CS has a million man army? Free Quebec has thousands of Glitterboys? There is a city of dragons? Seems like these horsemen are hardly a threat to any of those, so minor in fact that PC groups can actually FIGHT them. Now, they shouldn't be fighting them, because the Horsemen should be teleporting/invisibly flying/running like hell to the point where they can join up and destroy the world, thus accomplishing their goal of killing everything, but because NO ONE can fight them once they HAVE merged, the Horsemen have to take strange and minor detours to pollute small rivers, wither fields which feed dozens(Oh No!) of people, and construct (one at a time) 'super Zombies' that aren't a match for pretty much anything.

Their original character is much closer to that of what Rifts originally was. They were a real threat. There was no real army in that area to oppose them. PC's had to gather with other 'heroes' to defeat them. For Rifts now though, or even not so long after that, they do better as truly super beings (perhaps energy beings which can create physical forms and are not slain when those forms are destroyed, similiar to the physical body the Apocalypse demon can create?) who play from the shadows, over the long term, and have actual minions/can turn others to their purposes.

The primary threat of the "Four-As-One Apocalypse Creature" is in what it can do to bring the masses to war and do the job of killing for the demon, not its physical stats.

As written, and when ALL of its powers are taken into account, that creature is one of the most dangerous creatures in all of the books, in some measure close to being as dangerous as Nxla itself.

[J_Danger]

Our GM introduced us to the horseman by defending a town while Pestilence attacked it. We were just holding him off until the villagers evacuated, but in the end, we saw an opportunity and surprised our GM by actually killing him. It was our unskilled vagabond with no super powers, riding on his SDC motorcycle, wearing his SDC leather jacket who charged Pestilence and threw a satchel of fusion blocks into his vortex attack that landed the killing blow!

Our group did have a bunch of tanks that the Gathering of Heroes sent to fend Pestilence off, we don't play those silly games where we'd want to punch Pestillence in the face with our characters. We spent most of the battle clearing stuff from the heavy artillery so it could continue to blast away. (ex. sdc grenades to blow up insects clogging the MDC hover jets of the tanks)

We did end up killing famine later, but that took an entire city (sprouted up where Pestilence fell) and our Atlantean Undead Slayer died (house of glass and the sword of truth, also some of the worst roles ever (perception, magic lore, natural 20, max damage roll on the sword damage)

[Cyber-Knight]

Yeah, I remember playing in a campaign with the Four Horsemen and the GM did nothing interesting. It pretty much WAS a slugging match between the PC's and one of the Horsemen (War, I think), and we literally sat there for hours just rolling d20's and adding up the damage we inflicted on him until he was dead. It was possibly the most un-fun experience I'd ever had at a gaming table.

[Eashamahel]

Sorry, I think I may have caused confusion with my previous post. What I meant to say is that it is hard to take the INDIVIDUAL horsemen as a serious threat, considering the powers available on Rifts Earth. The thing that makes them dangerous is apparantly they are so NOT-dangerous that no one cares enough to do anything about them.

The actual Apocalypse Demon I have no illusions about, as it's pretty clearly stated that it WILL end the world. I am not sure why it's even given stats, as even destroying it's physical form does little to nothing to hamper it and all you have is time (5 years assuming all meet up?) before the world ends itself.