Coalition and Vampires

[Subjugator]

Can vamps wear an MDC breastplate and still change to mist? I don't have time to check right now but in the original book they had to remove it to change. If that's still the case, then that's how you catch them.

The smart way to protect against vampires is to make a town like Venice, Italy.

/Sub

[Eashamahel]

How do skelebots become vampires?

Considering how poorly Skelebots fared in the War on Tolkeen trying to deal with flesh and blood enemies who used magic, I can only imagine how badly they would do against Vampires if sent on the same mission.

That being said, Skelebots are not a terrible choice of backup, they are great in fact. They ignore many of the vamps strengths, such as horror factor/outright fear, psychic abilities, ect, they just aren't imaginative enough to deal with the way vamps would fight if led well, like by a strong Secondary. Against a pack of wilds, especially 1:1 or some such (using the original VK book for reference), they would do good, their base ground speed allowing them to follow retreating vamps and remove their hit and run tactic, which is probably the most commonly used one that Wilds will use to wear down enemies. Really, all skelebots should have silver plated vibro blades, just because.

The old Triax Dyna Bot is an even better choice, of course, since it's Triax ( ). Built in chemical mouth spray with holy water is a good system to include, as is an attached 'crossed' shoulder searchlight, and silver knuckle spikes. These minor things can be added on to any Dyna bot, don't inhibit it's ability to fight normal enemies, and provide good support in other situations (searchlights/powerful flashlights are always helpful).

[rat_bastard]

I think Hunter Skelebots accompanied by regular skelebots equipped with silver blades and assault rifles would rip through wild vampire ranks like a chainsaw through a hefty bag of puppies, its secondary vampires and Master vampires that have the reasoning and strategic know how to rip the bots a new one.

[Eashamahel]

Indeed I agree that the Skelebots will rip through the wild ones in a straight up fight, but the Skelebots are not going to have an easy time actually FINDING/identifying the wild vamps to engage them if sent out hunting. Infact, the dangers of programming skelebots to attack human looking targets should be enough to give the CS pause before mass deployment. These Skelebots aren't going to be able to rely on insignia/costumes, known armour types, ect to identify vamps and differentiate them from any group of people they happen to run across. Infact, for anyone who has ever had noticed the similarity between many wild Psi-Stalkers, with their tall, pale appearance, long fingers, sharp nails and occasionally filed teeth, it shouldn't be too hard at all to see how this could go wrong.

[rat_bastard]

Indeed I agree that the Skelebots will rip through the wild ones in a straight up fight, but the Skelebots are not going to have an easy time actually FINDING/identifying the wild vamps to engage them if sent out hunting. Infact, the dangers of programming skelebots to attack human looking targets should be enough to give the CS pause before mass deployment. These Skelebots aren't going to be able to rely on insignia/costumes, known armour types, ect to identify vamps and differentiate them from any group of people they happen to run across. Infact, for anyone who has ever had noticed the similarity between many wild Psi-Stalkers, with their tall, pale appearance, long fingers, sharp nails and occasionally filed teeth, it shouldn't be too hard at all to see how this could go wrong.

They are not human looking to skelebots, humans have body heat, vampires do not. Hence skelebots do not regard vamps as human.

[Eashamahel]

No, they ARE human looking, they look like humans, and have no body heat. Is this enough to prevent any problems? Possibly.

[Killer Cyborg]

SB1, p. 35
Memory also includes the identification of 2,000 different enemy targets, including specific races, non-human features and powers, insignia, uniforms, enemy robot and vehicle designs, acts of aggression, and notorious enemies of the State.

I'd say that Skelebots could easily be programmed to recognize vampires.
(For that matter, I'd say that they probably are)

[Blue_Lion]

I think hunting vampires could be done by skelebots but whould be done better by successfull cs mutant animal lines such as dog boys and battle cats.

They whould have a better time locating the vampires, most of the cs whould not care if some unseen dog boy or battle cat died. They like doing it. I rember early books talked about a group of rouge dog boys staking vampires for fun. Now the vampire could kill or turn the mutant animal but in the long run the CW whould not care just breed 2 more to take its place.

[Eashamahel]

They may well be already, but I have to assume that most Skelebots aren't, considering they have zero ability to fight against them. Of all the things the CS has, second only to Psi-Hounds, I have no idea why Skelebots don't have silver plated vibro blades. I know that CS Grunts have 'other equipment available on assignment', which is a good catch all for anything they might need for specific threats, like silver bullets, stakes, ect, but I don't think Skelebots are ever said to be modified to fit the situation.

I am also pretty sure that since their introduction Skelebots have been in cannon sent into Mexico.... Yep, Sourcebook 1, 32 have been sent into Mexico in 8 groups of 4. I am not sure for what purpose, exactly, though. Do normal Skelebots have the ability to record what they see and have it downloaded back later? If so that would make sense. Otherwise, since they are original version Skelebots, I assume they are on general S&D, it would make sense for the original scale of Rifts, and especially for original Skelebots with their infinite ammo.

I think hunting vampires could be done by skelebots but whould be done better by successfull cs mutant animal lines such as dog boys and battle cats.

They whould have a better time locating the vampires, most of the cs whould not care if some unseen dog boy or battle cat died. They like doing it. I rember early books talked about a group of rouge dog boys staking vampires for fun. Now the vampire could kill or turn the mutant animal but in the long run the CW whould not care just breed 2 more to take its place.

Yeah, the best anti-vampire unit available to the CS is definately the Psi-Hound pack with Psi-Stalkers, but Skelebots would be a great back-up, as would human observers from a safe distance (ie out of hypno-range).

[Blue_Lion]

Anything that knows the vampires weakness is great for hunting vampires.

You mean like a dog boy walking by a house and saying there is a vampire in thier in the middle of the day. but fighting vampires takes more than knowledge. It takes skill posibaly numbers and propper supplies.

[Blue_Lion]

Anything that knows the vampires weakness is great for hunting vampires.

You mean like a dog boy walking by a house and saying there is a vampire in thier in the middle of the day. but fighting vampires takes more than knowledge. It takes skill posibaly numbers and propper supplies.

Knowledge has for centuries beaten vast numbers. Skill is needed but not as needed as knowledge, knowing the enemy and being able to exploit it's weakness is priceless.

Skill is more needed than knowledge. Without skill it does not mater how much knowledge you have. Albert EInstien had great knowledge but no combat skill. Even thou he could know about his foe if his foe he whould loose any fist fight.

It is not knowlege that beats that has been beeeing vast numbers for centures it is-Skill, Disapline, and better technolgy. A sword man may does not need the knowlege of how a sword works or why he just needs the skill to put the pointy end in the other guy. Without out the skill to use it knowlege is useless. If you know how a gun works and know how to build one but lack the skill to use it, you can be beat by some one that lacks the knowlege but has the skill.

No mater how much knowlege you have or how great the tatics you use if you lack the skill to achieve your goal you will loose. Knowing how to beat a vampire and beating a vampire are two toataly difrent things. If you can't hit a vampire with your silver bullets what good are they? Rember vampires make examples of people by giving them anti vampire weapons then having them try to kill the vampire before he kills them. So the person has a weapon that is known to harm vampires and the vampire will let him attack as long as the person lacks the skill to finish the job.
Perty much every one knows the weekness of vampires but the vampires have no trouble killing and controling them.

In short skill is one of the most important things in a fight. Without it the only way to win is by brute force.

[Eashamahel]

You are both thinking of the individual, but you are both actually correct.

A more skilled opponent will often defeat a more knowledgeable but less skilled opponent, however that skilled opponent had to have been trained by someone with that knowledge, even if they themselves do not possess it. You see a similiar story play out every generation in sports like boxing, where a trainer who is highly knowledgeable teaches a student the how, but not they why, leading to a student who is VERY skilled, but not knowledgeable themselves in the why (beyond, that's how I was taught/that's what coach said). This skilled student can then beat an opponent more knowledgeable than THEMSELVES but not more knowledgeable than their COACH.

In the same way, a more skilled Soldier will defeat a less skilled, even if the less skilled soldier is more individually knowledgeable, if the more skilled soldiers commander is more knowledgeable. The best combination is always skilled troops and competent/knowledgeable command. Your troops don't have to understand their orders, just be good at carrying them out, and your leaders don't need to be able to do what their troopers do, just know what they SHOULD do.

In the boxing example, that is actually why knowledge has been constantly lost, as former fighters become trainers themselves, but don't know the 'why' of what they were told, which is why it's important for trainers to take on proteges, who want to learn the intricacies of training. I am sure that relates to the above as well, but I'm drifting away from the topic...

[rat_bastard]

SB1, p. 35
Memory also includes the identification of 2,000 different enemy targets, including specific races, non-human features and powers, insignia, uniforms, enemy robot and vehicle designs, acts of aggression, and notorious enemies of the State.

I'd say that Skelebots could easily be programmed to recognize vampires.
(For that matter, I'd say that they probably are)

I'm also pretty sure I said a hunter skelebot directing a squad of regular bots. You know, because they can strategize.

[Nightmask]

SB1, p. 35
Memory also includes the identification of 2,000 different enemy targets, including specific races, non-human features and powers, insignia, uniforms, enemy robot and vehicle designs, acts of aggression, and notorious enemies of the State.

I'd say that Skelebots could easily be programmed to recognize vampires.
(For that matter, I'd say that they probably are)

I'm also pretty sure I said a hunter skelebot directing a squad of regular bots. You know, because they can strategize.

Just out of curiosity, what features would you program them with to ensure accurate identification of a vampire?

[rat_bastard]

SB1, p. 35
Memory also includes the identification of 2,000 different enemy targets, including specific races, non-human features and powers, insignia, uniforms, enemy robot and vehicle designs, acts of aggression, and notorious enemies of the State.

I'd say that Skelebots could easily be programmed to recognize vampires.
(For that matter, I'd say that they probably are)

I'm also pretty sure I said a hunter skelebot directing a squad of regular bots. You know, because they can strategize.

Just out of curiosity, what features would you program them with to ensure accurate identification of a vampire?

Well they look human, but they have no body heat and no heart beat, thats the most obvious. Checking their teeth and eyes (their eyes glow when they use their powers) are secondary, but in CS controlled areas where humans the CS gives a rats ass about are around squirting the suspect with water or shining the shadow of an approved holy symbol on the creature is an easy check.

Ground penetrating radar to find caves and sinkholes is another important tool.

[Mack]

I wouldn't send the Skelebots out completely on their own. I'd assign several Skelebot teams to an area, along with a few Dog Boy response teams. When the 'bots find something, they notify the Dog Boys who fly in via hovercars.

In other cases I'd have a mixed infantry unit of Dog Boys and Skelebots, which allows each to compensate for the other's weaknesses.

[Eashamahel]

I think your tactic is solid Mack, but probably the other way around would be better. Have Psi-Hound scout teams, who can call in Skelebots when they find something.

[Blue_Lion]

Anything that knows the vampires weakness is great for hunting vampires.

You mean like a dog boy walking by a house and saying there is a vampire in thier in the middle of the day. but fighting vampires takes more than knowledge. It takes skill posibaly numbers and propper supplies.

Knowledge has for centuries beaten vast numbers. Skill is needed but not as needed as knowledge, knowing the enemy and being able to exploit it's weakness is priceless.

Skill is more needed than knowledge. Without skill it does not mater how much knowledge you have. Albert EInstien had great knowledge but no combat skill. Even thou he could know about his foe if his foe he whould loose any fist fight.

It is not knowlege that beats that has been beeeing vast numbers for centures it is-Skill, Disapline, and better technolgy. A sword man may does not need the knowlege of how a sword works or why he just needs the skill to put the pointy end in the other guy. Without out the skill to use it knowlege is useless. If you know how a gun works and know how to build one but lack the skill to use it, you can be beat by some one that lacks the knowlege but has the skill.

No mater how much knowlege you have or how great the tatics you use if you lack the skill to achieve your goal you will loose. Knowing how to beat a vampire and beating a vampire are two toataly difrent things. If you can't hit a vampire with your silver bullets what good are they? Rember vampires make examples of people by giving them anti vampire weapons then having them try to kill the vampire before he kills them. So the person has a weapon that is known to harm vampires and the vampire will let him attack as long as the person lacks the skill to finish the job.
Perty much every one knows the weekness of vampires but the vampires have no trouble killing and controling them.

In short skill is one of the most important things in a fight. Without it the only way to win is by brute force.

Revolutionary war; Outnumbered out trained (IE skilled) by your logic they should have lost. They had more knowledge of the land and Washington used his knowledge of Cornwall to out smart him during his winter at valley forge. Knowledge proves more valuable to the local smaller army then the larger and better skilled army. A swords men Does need to know about the sword they wield, All swords are not the same and all swords pointy ends are not the best way to kill with them.
No they don't otherwise the Coalition wouldn't have programs to study and understand them. By the time Mexicans of the Dark Ages knew how to fight them (IE the knowledge needed because most survivors have skills they wouldn't have made it that long with out it) The vampires had already started enslaving the population.
Your whole stance is invalid with out knowledge, No amount of skill is paramount over knowledge of your enemy. I could be the greatest warrior ever but if I don't know how to fight a vampire I won't beat it no matter how skilled I am.

Actualy the collonies had better marksmen and wood lore than the british. In other words they had they skills they had the skill to use the land and live off the land. The british had better war knowledge and traind according that knowlede. But it was not about making skilled soldiers as much as ones that whold charge in to battle. The Reveltionary fighters on the other had had skills and used the skills to win. I am not saying knowledge is useless just it is trumphed by real skill.

You can be the bigest vampire knowledge base if you lack the skill to use the knowledge it whould do you no good. Tell me witch is harder to aquire the skills to fight or some one telling you stake him threw the heart and cut off its head. Look at how many early rifts charters started with anti vampire gear. This implies that knowing how to fight a vampire is comon knowledge. Even towns subjected under the vampires know how to fight them but lack the skill to do so. Skill also makes it easer to aquire knowledge for accemple reading is seen as a skill but it gets you knowledge. A skilled figheter can learn the paterns and weekness in a foe, even if he did not see it ahead of time. Now granted vampires are a little harder to figure out without the start.

A good example of this think back into high school who whould win in a fight the jock=skill or the nerd= knowledge? Generaly the nerd whould loose in a fist fight with a jock. Its not that knowledge is worthless in a fight but skill to use it is always more important than the knowledge otherwise the knowledge is worthless.

(Personaly I think the actal part of fighting a vampire whould be a skill into itself it might make use of the knowledge but beeing able to get that stake in juuust right, or cutting the head of a fighting vampire with your silver axe. That whould require a highly developed fighting skill that justifes vampire hunting classes. Knowing something and beeing able to actualy do it are two difrent things.)

[rat_bastard]

The colonies had rifeled barrels and refused to stand in neat lines and get shot. Saying the british had better tactics is patently false.

[Cyber-Knight]

*sigh* I really wish they'd done away with the whole running water nonsense.

[rat_bastard]

*sigh* I really wish they'd done away with the whole running water nonsense.

While I refuse to be scared of a bad guy I can kill with a slip and slide I have to give the folks at pally props for coming up with a unique weakness.

[Cyber-Knight]

Yeah, I have a hard time taking a villain seriously when they can be killed by this.

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/wp-content/ ... pistol.jpg

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, I have a hard time taking a villain seriously when they can be killed by this.

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/wp-content/ ... pistol.jpg

Anybody can be killed with that.

[rat_bastard]

Yeah, I have a hard time taking a villain seriously when they can be killed by this.

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/wp-content/ ... pistol.jpg

Anybody can be killed with that.

Why is he supprised that a vampire can be killed by a greater soul stealing boom squirt gun?

[flatline]

Yeah, I have a hard time taking a villain seriously when they can be killed by this.

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/wp-content/ ... pistol.jpg

Anybody can be killed with that.

Well, duh! That thing is huge!

--flatline

[rat_bastard]

Hodor? Hodor hodor hodor! Hodor hodor.

[Cyber-Knight]

Yeah, I have a hard time taking a villain seriously when they can be killed by this.

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/wp-content/ ... pistol.jpg

Anybody can be killed with that.

Yep. Just check out the FBI's statistics for deaths by water pistol. Absolutely lethal weapons.

[Nightmask]

Yeah, I have a hard time taking a villain seriously when they can be killed by this.

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/wp-content/ ... pistol.jpg

Anybody can be killed with that.

Yep. Just check out the FBI's statistics for deaths by water pistol. Absolutely lethal weapons.

Not surprising, when people have an 'oh there's no way THAT could ever hurt someone' attitude the lethal aspects of it quickly become apparent, generally right after someone says 'See?'. They'll shoot someone with the pellet gun, water hoses, etc certain that someone's concerns about how dangerous it is is just them being silly, wimpy, or overly-cautious. Then someone's blinded, crippled, or dead.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, I have a hard time taking a villain seriously when they can be killed by this.

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/wp-content/ ... pistol.jpg

Anybody can be killed with that.

Yep. Just check out the FBI's statistics for deaths by water pistol. Absolutely lethal weapons.

I didn't say that people commonly ARE killed with that, just that anybody CAN be.
Most objects, if you cram them down somebody's throat, will kill.
With hard plastic objects, you can smash them on somebody's head, then use the shards to slit their throat, or stab into vital areas.

Anybody can be killed with pretty much anything.

[Killer Cyborg]

*sigh* I really wish they'd done away with the whole running water nonsense.

While I refuse to be scared of a bad guy I can kill with a slip and slide I have to give the folks at pally props for coming up with a unique weakness.

It's not a unique weakness. Vampires have often had running water as a vulnerability before, in movies and myths.
Even in D&D, you could kill them with an Everflowing Bottle.

[Cyber-Knight]

Yeah, I have a hard time taking a villain seriously when they can be killed by this.

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/wp-content/ ... pistol.jpg

Anybody can be killed with that.

Yep. Just check out the FBI's statistics for deaths by water pistol. Absolutely lethal weapons.

I didn't say that people commonly ARE killed with that, just that anybody CAN be.
Most objects, if you cram them down somebody's throat, will kill.
With hard plastic objects, you can smash them on somebody's head, then use the shards to slit their throat, or stab into vital areas.

Anybody can be killed with pretty much anything.

In which case you completely missed the point. You can kill vampires with one of those if they're used as intended. Or at the very least you can hurt them badly. And doing so would definitely be a lot easier than if you were to try to jam it down someone's throat. And given that most people aren't supernatural creatures...

[Cyber-Knight]

Yeah, I have a hard time taking a villain seriously when they can be killed by this.

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/wp-content/ ... pistol.jpg

Anybody can be killed with that.

Yep. Just check out the FBI's statistics for deaths by water pistol. Absolutely lethal weapons.

Not surprising, when people have an 'oh there's no way THAT could ever hurt someone' attitude the lethal aspects of it quickly become apparent, generally right after someone says 'See?'. They'll shoot someone with the pellet gun, water hoses, etc certain that someone's concerns about how dangerous it is is just them being silly, wimpy, or overly-cautious. Then someone's blinded, crippled, or dead.

Yep. The 18th Street Gang learned the hard way. Walking down the street one moment, then one drive-by with water pistols later, and they were all dead on the ground from drowning and choking on emptied water pistols which were flung into their mouths. It was horrible.

[calto40k]

wouldn't it require knowledge to be skilled in something?

[Blue_Lion]

wouldn't it require knowledge to be skilled in something?

Hence why knowledge is paramount.

Actualy skill is the key to knowledge not the other way around. Reading is a skill with it you can learn knowlege. You do not need knowledge to be a skilled fighter, but becoming a skilled may gain knowledge. Doing something is a skill, knowing about something is knowledge, many people have been good at things but had no idea the how or why about it. Granted having both the knowledge and the skill to use it better than just one or the other, but without the skill to use it knowledge by itself is not practical. Many physical skills are about mussle memory you do not have time to overly think things threw. Well trained fighters when threated or attacked react before they have time to think about it.

[Blue_Lion]

I should point out that a squirt gun/running water can hurt a vampire but it can not kill him. To kill him you have to chop his head off and burn the head and boady sepertaly. If you just hit with a stream off water tell he stops moving he regerates gets up and kills you for beeing stupid. same with silver and wooden weapons.
When I read the revised vampire it book there was a secetion they talked about the vampire making an example of some one for resiting by giving them a anti vampire weapon then having them attack the vampire. Guess what the vampire almost always wins even thou the person has a weapon known to harm vampires. The poor sap just does not have the skill to bring the vampire down.

for the most part PB vampire weakness are all the traditional ones from the myths, they are not using movie hyped vampirs but the old lore on them.

[Mack]

Let's return this to a Rifts discussion before it devolves into something less desireable.

[Blue_Lion]

My expernce is my expernce and deficition change from dictionary to dictionary. But the focus should be on the setting not debating english or name calling.

but lets use some other dictionaries on skill

Dictionary


skillskɪl(n.)
1.
the ability to do something well arising from talent, training, or practice.

2.
special competence in performance; expertness; dexterity.

3.
a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training.

4.
Obs. discernment.

5.
Obs. reason; cause.


Origin
http://www.definitions.net/definition/skill


skill
1 [skil] Show IPA

noun
1.
the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.

2.
competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.

3.
a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.

4.
Obsolete . understanding; discernment.

5.
Obsolete . reason; cause.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skill

So the meaning of words is not as clear cut as you are tring to say as dictionaries do not always exactly agree on them. You mearly whent with one that supports your stance, when another does not even mention knowledge in it. Infact neither of the two dictionaries I looked up niether says it absualtely comes I posted absualtly say it comes from knowledge. Infact even yours did not absulatly say it comes from knowledge.

What the words mean to me-

Skill-the abilty to do something

knowledge-academic undertanding of something.

So riding a bike, puncing, driving, shooting guns, playing baseball are all skills to me as it is something you do.

History, Lore, baseball stats, weapon stats, fighter stats whould be knowledge to me as it what you know.

Does that clear up what I mean by skill enofe to get back to the topics of rifts.

With the topic at hand I whould say that the main way the CS deals with vampires is the use of mutant animals as primaries with other options such as skelebots as support. The mutant animals along with psi-stalkers have the best abitly to deal with them they can locate them, track them and the abitly to fight them.

[rat_bastard]

I should point out that a squirt gun/running water can hurt a vampire but it can not kill him. To kill him you have to chop his head off and burn the head and boady sepertaly. If you just hit with a stream off water tell he stops moving he regerates gets up and kills you for beeing stupid. same with silver and wooden weapons.
When I read the revised vampire it book there was a secetion they talked about the vampire making an example of some one for resiting by giving them a anti vampire weapon then having them attack the vampire. Guess what the vampire almost always wins even thou the person has a weapon known to harm vampires. The poor sap just does not have the skill to bring the vampire down.

for the most part PB vampire weakness are all the traditional ones from the myths, they are not using movie hyped vampirs but the old lore on them.

Actually if you put a vampire into sufficient negative hit points with water damage you kill it.

[Blue_Lion]

I should point out that a squirt gun/running water can hurt a vampire but it can not kill him. To kill him you have to chop his head off and burn the head and boady sepertaly. If you just hit with a stream off water tell he stops moving he regerates gets up and kills you for beeing stupid. same with silver and wooden weapons.
When I read the revised vampire it book there was a secetion they talked about the vampire making an example of some one for resiting by giving them a anti vampire weapon then having them attack the vampire. Guess what the vampire almost always wins even thou the person has a weapon known to harm vampires. The poor sap just does not have the skill to bring the vampire down.

for the most part PB vampire weakness are all the traditional ones from the myths, they are not using movie hyped vampirs but the old lore on them.

Actually if you put a vampire into sufficient negative hit points with water damage you kill it.

Realy page number please.

[rat_bastard]

I should point out that a squirt gun/running water can hurt a vampire but it can not kill him. To kill him you have to chop his head off and burn the head and boady sepertaly. If you just hit with a stream off water tell he stops moving he regerates gets up and kills you for beeing stupid. same with silver and wooden weapons.
When I read the revised vampire it book there was a secetion they talked about the vampire making an example of some one for resiting by giving them a anti vampire weapon then having them attack the vampire. Guess what the vampire almost always wins even thou the person has a weapon known to harm vampires. The poor sap just does not have the skill to bring the vampire down.

for the most part PB vampire weakness are all the traditional ones from the myths, they are not using movie hyped vampirs but the old lore on them.

Actually if you put a vampire into sufficient negative hit points with water damage you kill it.

Realy page number please.

Vampire Kingdoms page 28, second paragraph.

[Blue_Lion]

I should point out that a squirt gun/running water can hurt a vampire but it can not kill him. To kill him you have to chop his head off and burn the head and boady sepertaly. If you just hit with a stream off water tell he stops moving he regerates gets up and kills you for beeing stupid. same with silver and wooden weapons.
When I read the revised vampire it book there was a secetion they talked about the vampire making an example of some one for resiting by giving them a anti vampire weapon then having them attack the vampire. Guess what the vampire almost always wins even thou the person has a weapon known to harm vampires. The poor sap just does not have the skill to bring the vampire down.

for the most part PB vampire weakness are all the traditional ones from the myths, they are not using movie hyped vampirs but the old lore on them.

Actually if you put a vampire into sufficient negative hit points with water damage you kill it.

Realy page number please.

vampire kingdoms page 28, second paragraph.

Revised? let me check oh wait that is in my non revised ed. Let a friend borrow my revised witch changed it. The revised one changes it. I do not have the book today but it says the only way to kill a vampire is to cut off the head and burn the two in seperate fires. So are you using a rule that has been canceled in the revised ed?

[Alrik Vas]

Nobody cares about killing vampires. They all sparkle with emo-love.

[rat_bastard]

And that shinny is why you should go nowhere in rifts earth without a sidearm loaded with silver.

[Nightmask]

And that shinny is why you should go nowhere in rifts earth without a sidearm loaded with silver.

I'd prefer one enchanted with the Enchant Weapon Ritual from Nightbane, easier to find conventional ammunition over silver and the weapon now does double damage to all supernatural creatures (so while doing SDC/HP to conventional targets it can do mega-damage to supernatural targets). Especially useful with automatic firearms and railguns.

[Blue_Lion]

vampire kingdoms page 28, second paragraph.

Revised? let me check oh wait that is in my non revised ed. Let a friend borrow my revised witch changed it. The revised one changes it. I do not have the book today but it says the only way to kill a vampire is to cut off the head and burn the two in seperate fires. So are you using a rule that has been canceled in the revised ed?

Revised does not change this, it specifically states several ways to kill a Vampire. VK Revised Pg 71 last paragraph.

If you do not KNOW how to kill a Vampire, skill is not going to help you. I can be the most bad*** gunslinger in the world but if I'm not using the proper ammunition on a Vampire then I am going to die a horrible death. Sure skill helps but you have to have knowledge of your enemy.

"Knowing is half the battle."

I think you guys are focusing to much on the wrong part I have never said the knowledge was useless some one I said that they whould have the skill to fight them. Some one said skill does not matter all you need is the knowledge, so I have been saying that knowledge by itself whould not do any good without skill. In other post I even said that they whould need knowledge as well but compair how long it takes to get the knowledge to kill a vampire to the time to get the skill to fight them. Starting off with the skill it whould be easy to get the knowledge as what hurts them is fairly common knowledge out west. Every town under vampire control knows how to kill them but that knowledge is useless because they lack the skill to use it.

[Blue_Lion]

I think you guys are focusing to much on the wrong part I have never said the knowledge was useless some one I said that they whould have the skill to fight them. Some one said skill does not matter all you need is the knowledge, so I have been saying that knowledge by itself whould not do any good without skill. In other post I even said that they whould need knowledge as well but compair how long it takes to get the knowledge to kill a vampire to the time to get the skill to fight them. Starting off with the skill it whould be easy to get the knowledge as what hurts them is fairly common knowledge out west. Every town under vampire control knows how to kill them but that knowledge is useless because they lack the skill to use it.

I have countless characters that can kill a Vampire just as well as a dedicated Vampire Hunter just because of the knowledge they have on how to defeat them. What special skill is there to kill a Vampire that anyone with the knowledge on how to do it doesn't have?

Towns out west know how to kill a Vampire and don't, not because they don't have the skill but because they are afraid. It doesn't take skill to stab a piece of wood into a Vampire, but it takes knowledge to know to do that as well as where to aim.

well matching a vampire in a fight hand to hand for a person with no combat skills or bonuses? Rember PC tend to be acceptions not the rule, they could not be heroes of every one can do it.

Lets see you are saying it takes abusltly 0 skill to hit a moving target or do a called shot on a moving target that is fighting back?

I can know the target and how to aim to hit the target but if I lack the skill to hit the target I will miss the target more often than not. Your argument makes it seam you never been in a fight with a agaist a dificult opent or a fire fight. There is a big difrence than knowing about something and having the skill to do it.

A vampire is not going to sit still and let you stake him just because you know how so you have choices try to stake him in hand to hand, or from range. In hand to hand the vampire can parry and attack. At range you have to wach out for mind control and the vampire can dodge if you are unskilled you will have fewer atacks and suffer penilties to hit him. Odds are the vampire will win.

I am curntly a trainer for the army and for combat skills be it combatives or markmanship I spend more time teaching the skills of how to do it then the knowledge of why and how it is done this way. If you take a untrained soldier and throw to much of the knowledge of why it is done they will over think it and fail. The training to succeed is 90% physical 10% mental. We do not ignore the mind but the physcal part is more important than the knowledge. Once they have the musle memory you can then flood them with knowlede as the already have the skill.

[Subjugator]

I think you guys are focusing to much on the wrong part I have never said the knowledge was useless some one I said that they whould have the skill to fight them.

Ninjabunny said:

Knowledge has for centuries beaten vast numbers. Skill is needed but not as needed as knowledge, knowing the enemy and being able to exploit it's weakness is priceless.

In reply, among other things, you said this:

Skill is more needed than knowledge. Without skill it does not mater how much knowledge you have. Albert EInstien had great knowledge but no combat skill. Even thou he could know about his foe if his foe he whould loose any fist fight.

...and this...

In short skill is one of the most important things in a fight. Without it the only way to win is by brute force.

In this particular context, you are absolutely 100% incorrect. One could have no hand-to-hand training whatsoever (i.e. no skill), but have the *knowledge* of how to kill a vampire, and using that knowledge, could possibly kill one in a fight. Conversely, a person with hand-to-hand commando at fifteenth level who did not have the appropriate knowledge would almost certainly die trying to fight a vampire, because he'd almost certainly be using things other than silver, water, wood, et al.

Some one said skill does not matter all you need is the knowledge, so I have been saying that knowledge by itself whould not do any good without skill. In other post I even said that they whould need knowledge as well but compair how long it takes to get the knowledge to kill a vampire to the time to get the skill to fight them. Starting off with the skill it whould be easy to get the knowledge as what hurts them is fairly common knowledge out west. Every town under vampire control knows how to kill them but that knowledge is useless because they lack the skill to use it.

I went back and checked, and I found NOBODY who said skill did not matter at all.

You're just incorrect. Accept it and move on.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

I think you guys are focusing to much on the wrong part I have never said the knowledge was useless some one I said that they whould have the skill to fight them.

Ninjabunny said:

Knowledge has for centuries beaten vast numbers. Skill is needed but not as needed as knowledge, knowing the enemy and being able to exploit it's weakness is priceless.

In reply, among other things, you said this:

Skill is more needed than knowledge. Without skill it does not mater how much knowledge you have. Albert EInstien had great knowledge but no combat skill. Even thou he could know about his foe if his foe he whould loose any fist fight.

...and this...

In short skill is one of the most important things in a fight. Without it the only way to win is by brute force.

In this particular context, you are absolutely 100% incorrect. One could have no hand-to-hand training whatsoever (i.e. no skill), but have the *knowledge* of how to kill a vampire, and using that knowledge, could possibly kill one in a fight. Conversely, a person with hand-to-hand commando at fifteenth level who did not have the appropriate knowledge would almost certainly die trying to fight a vampire, because he'd almost certainly be using things other than silver, water, wood, et al.

Some one said skill does not matter all you need is the knowledge, so I have been saying that knowledge by itself whould not do any good without skill. In other post I even said that they whould need knowledge as well but compair how long it takes to get the knowledge to kill a vampire to the time to get the skill to fight them. Starting off with the skill it whould be easy to get the knowledge as what hurts them is fairly common knowledge out west. Every town under vampire control knows how to kill them but that knowledge is useless because they lack the skill to use it.

I went back and checked, and I found NOBODY who said skill did not matter at all.

You're just incorrect. Accept it and move on.

/Sub

Realy no one said It doesn't take skill to stab a piece of wood into a Vampire?

Oh wait some one did and only two post before you, people have repeated belittle skill saying knowledge is what is needed belittling skill. They may not have used the assact same words that I did but they have been saying knowledge not skill is what you fight vampires with.

So sub I guess you are the one who is incorrect. Accept and move on.

[rat_bastard]

And that shinny is why you should go nowhere in rifts earth without a sidearm loaded with silver.

I'd prefer one enchanted with the Enchant Weapon Ritual from Nightbane, easier to find conventional ammunition over silver and the weapon now does double damage to all supernatural creatures (so while doing SDC/HP to conventional targets it can do mega-damage to supernatural targets). Especially useful with automatic firearms and railguns.

I find that handicaps me. A magic bullet does 2d6 md, but against full demons, vamps etc silver weapons deal their sdc damage as mega damage. A nema automag does 5d6 or a d6x10 to demons, with magic ammo that is merely 2d6/4d6. Plus magic rounds attract attention from dog boys and the like while carrying a silver loaded sidearm earns you a pat on the back from most humans.

[Subjugator]

Oh wait some one did and only two post before you, people have repeated belittle skill saying knowledge is what is needed belittling skill. They may not have used the assact same words that I did but they have been saying knowledge not skill is what you fight vampires with.

So sub I guess you are the one who is incorrect. Accept and move on.

Here's what was said by others about skill:

Skill is needed but not as needed as knowledge, knowing the enemy and being able to exploit it's weakness is priceless.

. . .

Your whole stance is invalid with out knowledge, No amount of skill is paramount over knowledge of your enemy. I could be the greatest warrior ever but if I don't know how to fight a vampire I won't beat it no matter how skilled I am.

. . .

Skill can not be gained with out knowledge, knowledge is what lets you learn a skill and apply it.

If you do not KNOW how to kill a Vampire, skill is not going to help you.

. . .

What special skill is there to kill a Vampire that anyone with the knowledge on how to do it doesn't have?

. . .

It doesn't take skill to stab a piece of wood into a Vampire, but it takes knowledge to know to do that as well as where to aim.

So can you quote where ANYONE said skill doesn't matter? I can't find it, and I looked pretty hard. In fact, I looked for every instance of the word, 'skill' on pages 2 and 3 and I just don't see what you're describing, so either you're adding to their words to reach a different conclusion (which is what I think is happening) or I cannot find the sentence you're referring to.

/Sub