The "High" price of magic

[Shark_Force]

A level 2 Ley Line Walker can meditate on a Ley Line for 48 hours and then walk away with a Spell of Legend. Using those silly rules, that LLW can then sell that knowledge and retire from adventuring quite happily.

only if that spell of legend happens to be a level 2 spell, and the ley line walker just gained a level.

so... since none of the spells of legend are level 2: no they can't.

[Giant2005]

A level 2 Ley Line Walker can meditate on a Ley Line for 48 hours and then walk away with a Spell of Legend. Using those silly rules, that LLW can then sell that knowledge and retire from adventuring quite happily.

only if that spell of legend happens to be a level 2 spell, and the ley line walker just gained a level.

so... since none of the spells of legend are level 2: no they can't.

Or they can use their OCC ability number 8...

[Shark_Force]

A level 2 Ley Line Walker can meditate on a Ley Line for 48 hours and then walk away with a Spell of Legend. Using those silly rules, that LLW can then sell that knowledge and retire from adventuring quite happily.

only if that spell of legend happens to be a level 2 spell, and the ley line walker just gained a level.

so... since none of the spells of legend are level 2: no they can't.

Or they can use their OCC ability number 8...

oh hey look, it's an ability that lets you learn from a specific set of spells, *none of which are spells of legend*, *when they level up*.

i stand by my answer.

[Giant2005]

A level 2 Ley Line Walker can meditate on a Ley Line for 48 hours and then walk away with a Spell of Legend. Using those silly rules, that LLW can then sell that knowledge and retire from adventuring quite happily.

only if that spell of legend happens to be a level 2 spell, and the ley line walker just gained a level.

so... since none of the spells of legend are level 2: no they can't.

Or they can use their OCC ability number 8...

oh hey look, it's an ability that lets you learn from a specific set of spells, *none of which are spells of legend*, *when they level up*.

i stand by my answer.

Ley Line Resurrection is a Spell of Legend.

[Killer Cyborg]

A level 2 Ley Line Walker can meditate on a Ley Line for 48 hours and then walk away with a Spell of Legend. Using those silly rules, that LLW can then sell that knowledge and retire from adventuring quite happily.

only if that spell of legend happens to be a level 2 spell, and the ley line walker just gained a level.

so... since none of the spells of legend are level 2: no they can't.

Or they can use their OCC ability number 8...

oh hey look, it's an ability that lets you learn from a specific set of spells, *none of which are spells of legend*, *when they level up*.

i stand by my answer.

Ley Line Resurrection is a Spell of Legend.

lol

THAT is pretty messed up!

I'd say, though, that since the spell is learned through meditation instead of standard study, that it couldn't be taught to somebody else.

[calto40k]

I'd say, though, that since the spell is learned through meditation instead of standard study, that it couldn't be taught to somebody else.

Hmm... But a LLW can teach spells, whereas a Mystic or a Priest cannot. Also, I would think that in order to learn a spell like LL-Ressurection, the person trying to learn it would need some kind of extensive guidance in order to even get a grip on what to meditate on. Wouldn't that essentially be the same thing as someone teach a new spell? -- Just a thought.

Isnt that spell an occ specific spell?

[flatline]

I'd say, though, that since the spell is learned through meditation instead of standard study, that it couldn't be taught to somebody else.

Hmm... But a LLW can teach spells, whereas a Mystic or a Priest cannot. Also, I would think that in order to learn a spell like LL-Ressurection, the person trying to learn it would need some kind of extensive guidance in order to even get a grip on what to meditate on. Wouldn't that essentially be the same thing as someone teach a new spell? -- Just a thought.

Isnt that spell an occ specific spell?

No, it's just a regular invocation. Anyone can learn it, but the LLW has easier access to it since he can learn it without a teacher.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

The LLW description of learning spells via meditation is the same as the Mystics'.
I don't see any reason to treat them differently, especially when it could lead to easy abuse.

[Shark_Force]

The LLW description of learning spells via meditation is the same as the Mystics'.
I don't see any reason to treat them differently, especially when it could lead to easy abuse.

it does specifically mention they can be taught by another ley line walker.

[Killer Cyborg]

The LLW description of learning spells via meditation is the same as the Mystics'.
I don't see any reason to treat them differently, especially when it could lead to easy abuse.

it does specifically mention they can be taught by another ley line walker.

Well, sure... but not automatically when they level up, as with learning them via meditation.

[Shark_Force]

so, having had a look at the spell "ley line resurrection", i've concluded that it is a spell of legend because it is legendarily bad in comparison to the non-legendary resurrection spell.

regular resurrection costs less to cast (slightly less than 1/3 for most), can presumably be learned as a non-ritual as well as a ritual, doesn't cost permanent PPE, works on corpses that have been dead for longer (by a factor of 60), has a higher chance of success, and can be attempted more times before it has no chance of success (although if you only have one person that knows it, it is functionally the same in that regard. you do have 60 times as long to find another mage, teach them the regular resurrection spell, and have them make the attempt though).

the only advantages of ley line resurrection that i can see (and this is *really* stretching the meaning of the word "advantage" here) is that it has a range of 10 feet vs 6 feet (mind you, if you know regular resurrection as a non-ritual, i give good odds that you can walk those extra 4 feet in less than the 15 minutes it takes to cast ley line resurrection), and that it has a slightly better chance if you happen to die with very easy access to a nexus and you also have access to 2 people who know the spell and can get the PPE for it.

frankly, by the time the average ley line walker has the resources to actually be able to cast the spell, they probably have the resources to have learned the much better version that works anywhere at all (or have access to friends that do).

if it was my campaign, i don't think there'd be too many people lining up desperate to shell out enough credits too retire for ley line resurrection, when the conventional version is better in so many ways. if they can't get access to the regular version, and if ley line walkers can in fact teach the ley line version using conventional means, you might get a few buyers... but the ones with the resources to pay millions for your spell probably already have the better version, and certainly nobody is going to pay you more for the spell than they would pay for regular resurrection (which, to be fair, is most likely to be *very* much on the high end of the cost scale, in my opinion).

[calto40k]

I'd say, though, that since the spell is learned through meditation instead of standard study, that it couldn't be taught to somebody else.

Hmm... But a LLW can teach spells, whereas a Mystic or a Priest cannot. Also, I would think that in order to learn a spell like LL-Ressurection, the person trying to learn it would need some kind of extensive guidance in order to even get a grip on what to meditate on. Wouldn't that essentially be the same thing as someone teach a new spell? -- Just a thought.

Isnt that spell an occ specific spell?

No, it's just a regular invocation. Anyone can learn it, but the LLW has easier access to it since he can learn it without a teacher.

--flatline

Thank you for the clarification. Really didn't feel like going down to my basement to look this up before.

[Giant2005]

if it was my campaign, i don't think there'd be too many people lining up desperate to shell out enough credits too retire for ley line resurrection, when the conventional version is better in so many ways. if they can't get access to the regular version, and if ley line walkers can in fact teach the ley line version using conventional means, you might get a few buyers... but the ones with the resources to pay millions for your spell probably already have the better version, and certainly nobody is going to pay you more for the spell than they would pay for regular resurrection (which, to be fair, is most likely to be *very* much on the high end of the cost scale, in my opinion).

That is pretty much the point I was trying to make - the value of a spell shouldn't be determined by its level. There are far more important factors involved.

[Subjugator]

Value for anything is determined by supply and demand...whether it's a high level spell or a stick of gum.

/Sub

[flatline]

Value for anything is determined by supply and demand...whether it's a high level spell or a stick of gum.

/Sub

Yup.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

RUE says that the price for a spell that is level 10 through level 15 is nominally between $500,000 and $1,000,000.

Do people really feel that spell prices are high?

--flatline

The price isn't the real crime, the real crime is that it takes 2 days per spell level to learn each of those spells. Like the rest of the party is just going to wait for you...

Rifts as written is pretty anti magic.

How long dos it take to repair PA or a vehicle. It is only anti magic if you say repairs take not time. But if they have to be in town for repairs any ways.

How about the rest the party is you know taking a vacation and relaxing for a few days and the mage is studing. There are lots of reason to spend several days in town.

[Blue_Lion]

RUE says that the price for a spell that is level 10 through level 15 is nominally between $500,000 and $1,000,000.

Do people really feel that spell prices are high?

Probably not. I'm sure the BM has tons of spells that they've handed out to their mage security, but in doing so, some of those employees may have run off, been layed up somewhere, or been captured. Same thing with almost any spell-using group, particularly mercs, and in places like Lazlo, Tolkeen, City of Brass, etc.

Also, it's human nature for people to share secrets. How many times have we heard ourselves say, "Don't tell anyone, because this is a secret"..? In the same way, I'm sure that mages of every stripe have shared a spell here and there with someone, who just may have shared it with someone else, who need cash in a hurry and sold it to this guy who works for the Pecos Empire, and...etc, etc.

Essentially, I think that spells would be more common and thus, the prices would be lower.

I disagree on it beeing human nature to tell secerates. Your example is gossipers, people that do not know how to keep a secerate. Try getting a secerate from a spy or SF member big difrence.

The people that know how to keep a secerate do, those that don't don't. Mages Know how to keep a secerate.

[Damian Magecraft]

RUE says that the price for a spell that is level 10 through level 15 is nominally between $500,000 and $1,000,000.

Do people really feel that spell prices are high?

Probably not. I'm sure the BM has tons of spells that they've handed out to their mage security, but in doing so, some of those employees may have run off, been layed up somewhere, or been captured. Same thing with almost any spell-using group, particularly mercs, and in places like Lazlo, Tolkeen, City of Brass, etc.

Also, it's human nature for people to share secrets. How many times have we heard ourselves say, "Don't tell anyone, because this is a secret"..? In the same way, I'm sure that mages of every stripe have shared a spell here and there with someone, who just may have shared it with someone else, who need cash in a hurry and sold it to this guy who works for the Pecos Empire, and...etc, etc.

Essentially, I think that spells would be more common and thus, the prices would be lower.

I disagree on it beeing human nature to tell secerates. Your example is gossipers, people that do not know how to keep a secerate. Try getting a secerate from a spy or SF member big difrence.

The people that know how to keep a secerate do, those that don't don't. Mages Know how to keep a secerate.

Very much so mages keep secrets.
It is in their best interest to do so.
Magic is their bread and butter...
So spell knowledge is their best kept secret.

[flatline]

RUE says that the price for a spell that is level 10 through level 15 is nominally between $500,000 and $1,000,000.

Do people really feel that spell prices are high?

Probably not. I'm sure the BM has tons of spells that they've handed out to their mage security, but in doing so, some of those employees may have run off, been layed up somewhere, or been captured. Same thing with almost any spell-using group, particularly mercs, and in places like Lazlo, Tolkeen, City of Brass, etc.

Also, it's human nature for people to share secrets. How many times have we heard ourselves say, "Don't tell anyone, because this is a secret"..? In the same way, I'm sure that mages of every stripe have shared a spell here and there with someone, who just may have shared it with someone else, who need cash in a hurry and sold it to this guy who works for the Pecos Empire, and...etc, etc.

Essentially, I think that spells would be more common and thus, the prices would be lower.

I disagree on it beeing human nature to tell secerates. Your example is gossipers, people that do not know how to keep a secerate. Try getting a secerate from a spy or SF member big difrence.

The people that know how to keep a secerate do, those that don't don't. Mages Know how to keep a secerate.

Very much so mages keep secrets.
It is in their best interest to do so.
Magic is their bread and butter...
So spell knowledge is their best kept secret.

Except for when they teach a spell to someone else as a reward or for money.

--flatline

[arthurfallz]

I voted that they are baby bear prices - just right

Though I add on the availability, and increases in price as pointed out by Killer Cyborg. In general, I use being taught spells as a good reward to magician characters. It's the ultimate loot for them, and the player usually loves adding a spell to the list (even one he or she might not cast anytime soon).

The costing guidelines are, imho, guidelines. Generally, I don't use the costs listed in the book for anything as more than guidelines. Sometimes the players run across something costed through the roof, or seriously discounted. There is no large market, especially as you get out in the boonies.

But then, in other games, I play things pretty much out of the book pricing. It depends on how I want to treat currency (as an in-world concept that deserves thought, or a gaming-tool). Spells, therefore, when it comes to pricing, fall under the same idea. If I want to emphasize the individual merchant, the pursuit of spells, currency and economy, I pay more attention to the price. If I want to just let mages buy spells with the loot they gain, I just grab a book price and let the dice fall where they may.

[Athos]

RUE says that the price for a spell that is level 10 through level 15 is nominally between $500,000 and $1,000,000.

Do people really feel that spell prices are high?

--flatline

The price isn't the real crime, the real crime is that it takes 2 days per spell level to learn each of those spells. Like the rest of the party is just going to wait for you...

Rifts as written is pretty anti magic.

How long dos it take to repair PA or a vehicle. It is only anti magic if you say repairs take not time. But if they have to be in town for repairs any ways.

How about the rest the party is you know taking a vacation and relaxing for a few days and the mage is studing. There are lots of reason to spend several days in town.

PA costs 800 credits for 1 MDC to be repaired, so if you repair 600 to 1200 MDC, yes, you have just paid for a 10th to 15th level spell, but instead of spending a month down, your PA which hopefully doesn't have THAT much MDC to begin with, was probably only in the shop for a day or two. Most games I have been in, allow the armorer/operator to repair 100 MDC per day, since Sourcebook 1 that has the costs of repair doesn't go into how long things actually take. Assuming you got your flying titan PA almost destroyed 6 times, taking a whopping 150 MD out of the 180 MDC it has, that would be 900 MDC in repairs, for a total of 720,000 credits and 9 days in the shop. I don't know about you, but I tend to dodge and parry, and very seldom get my PA that damaged, let alone 6x in a row. So I think you are comparing apples and oranges here, when you try to take tech and say, oh ya, there is down time for it as well. Kevin, or whoever wrote this, hates magic and loves tech... so magic is rare, expensive and slow to learn, while any ahole out there can level up and instantly know how to use a new gun or PA.

The only fix I have seen that actually works is to reduce the time to learn a spell from 2 days a level to 2 hours a level. Also, NO THOUGHT was given to trying to equalize starting power levels between tech characters and magic characters. So a magic character, like a LLW starts out with 12 spells worth about 195,000 credits and then a glitterboy gets a PA worth 25 MILLION credits? Who thought up that crap? No, there are some serious problems with magic in Rifts, you can choose to put your head in the ground and say everything is peachy, but it isn't.

Of course, tech oriented players whine whenever you do ANYTHING that makes magic more useable, so I don't expect you to agree

And no, your approach of the party gets to RP and have fun while the mage is locked away is not a good solution for those of us that play mages, we like to participate in the game as well.

[Shark_Force]

magic isn't really that far behind tech. yes, the market value of the stuff they start with is less than a glitterboy. but then, so is the market value of the stuff for every other class, regardless of whether they're tech-oriented or not. not even full conversion cyborgs come close, and they're about as tech as you can get without being a machine person RCC.

furthermore, the simple fact is that magic may not cost that much to learn, but that doesn't mean it isn't very powerful. magic net and carpet of adhesion are some of the best spells out there, and they are very powerful in combat (provided you can get into range), regardless of how much they cost. spells like dominate and compulsion are incredibly versatile, spells like armour of ithan and impervious to energy provide powerful defensive bonuses that can essentially render an opponent completely ineffective (which can really help with getting in close), etc.

just because it isn't expensive, doesn't mean it isn't powerful.

[flatline]

If the glitterboy pilot sells his glitterboy, he has $25M and no glitterboy.

If a mage sells a spell, he has the money and still knows the spell.

YMMV.

--flatline

[Balabanto]

The thing that you have to consider is "What is the benefit of having this spell, who is selling it to them, and why?"

Most universities in places like Lazlo and Dweomer will freely teach spells to people who can drop the money, because learning the spell takes a relatively limited amount of time, and their OWN SPELL RESEARCH INTO MAGIC IS !@#$!ing expensive!

The economy of magic assumes that no player character wants to devote his life to being a research mage. This means that spells are going to be pretty darned expensive. Don't forget the 20 percent combat magic upcharge, either. Unless you're a Battle MAgus, in which case you get four combat spells and can only learn two others at any level, period, you are going to pay through every bodily orifice for learning magic. Consider that other characters will be spending their money on new robots, equipment, and vehicles. The party mage shouldn't be nothing but "The First Bank of the Player Character group." Allowing the players to buy the spells they want helps them define their character, but more importantly, it means they can't "Cash out" a scenario they don't like to much right in front of you by offering NPCs an exorbitant sum of money to stop doing whatever they're doing.

[flatline]

The thing that you have to consider is "What is the benefit of having this spell, who is selling it to them, and why?"

Most universities in places like Lazlo and Dweomer will freely teach spells to people who can drop the money, because learning the spell takes a relatively limited amount of time, and their OWN SPELL RESEARCH INTO MAGIC IS !@#$!ing expensive!

The economy of magic assumes that no player character wants to devote his life to being a research mage. This means that spells are going to be pretty darned expensive. Don't forget the 20 percent combat magic upcharge, either. Unless you're a Battle MAgus, in which case you get four combat spells and can only learn two others at any level, period, you are going to pay through every bodily orifice for learning magic. Consider that other characters will be spending their money on new robots, equipment, and vehicles. The party mage shouldn't be nothing but "The First Bank of the Player Character group." Allowing the players to buy the spells they want helps them define their character, but more importantly, it means they can't "Cash out" a scenario they don't like to much right in front of you by offering NPCs an exorbitant sum of money to stop doing whatever they're doing.

If the other party members have the money for new robots (which cost many millions), then it seems like the mage would have no trouble affording new spells with his cut without needing to borrow from the other party members.

My magic OCC of choice is the Temporal Wizard, so perhaps my experience is skewed, but it's my experience that the magic user is usually the richest party member just because he doesn't have some of the significant expenses that the others have.

--flatline

[kaid]

magic isn't really that far behind tech. yes, the market value of the stuff they start with is less than a glitterboy. but then, so is the market value of the stuff for every other class, regardless of whether they're tech-oriented or not. not even full conversion cyborgs come close, and they're about as tech as you can get without being a machine person RCC.

furthermore, the simple fact is that magic may not cost that much to learn, but that doesn't mean it isn't very powerful. magic net and carpet of adhesion are some of the best spells out there, and they are very powerful in combat (provided you can get into range), regardless of how much they cost. spells like dominate and compulsion are incredibly versatile, spells like armour of ithan and impervious to energy provide powerful defensive bonuses that can essentially render an opponent completely ineffective (which can really help with getting in close), etc.

just because it isn't expensive, doesn't mean it isn't powerful.

One thing to note about magic is they start off with a bit less cash/market value but over time they wind up spending much less on attritional costs such as eclip charging/armor repair due to their magic abilities. So overtime mages tend to float to the top of a party for who has the most cash to burn. I don't have any problems with magic being somewhat expensive to learn but spells are the rewards of choice for magic users as good guns/armor/PA are for tech characters. If they are not available or so unattainable or stupidly expensive they are always out of reach to the players why would anybody bother playing a magic using OCC in that campaign that was subject to these GM whims.

It is sort of the unintended downside of most of the "traditional" men of magic in rifts the ability to learn spells and buy them should be a bonus but in most campaigns I have played it almost always is a negative with those OCC like warlocks/mystics having a much easier time overall getting the spells they want.

I don't think I have ever seen a GM turn down a spell acquisition from a warlock/mystic as the book says they get x many spells of x level at every level up but take something like a techno wizard who does not gain any spells per level other than what they buy/acquire and I have seen them go 5 or 6 levels without ever being allowed to buy a single new spell.

[flatline]

magic isn't really that far behind tech. yes, the market value of the stuff they start with is less than a glitterboy. but then, so is the market value of the stuff for every other class, regardless of whether they're tech-oriented or not. not even full conversion cyborgs come close, and they're about as tech as you can get without being a machine person RCC.

furthermore, the simple fact is that magic may not cost that much to learn, but that doesn't mean it isn't very powerful. magic net and carpet of adhesion are some of the best spells out there, and they are very powerful in combat (provided you can get into range), regardless of how much they cost. spells like dominate and compulsion are incredibly versatile, spells like armour of ithan and impervious to energy provide powerful defensive bonuses that can essentially render an opponent completely ineffective (which can really help with getting in close), etc.

just because it isn't expensive, doesn't mean it isn't powerful.

One thing to note about magic is they start off with a bit less cash/market value but over time they wind up spending much less on attritional costs such as eclip charging/armor repair due to their magic abilities. So overtime mages tend to float to the top of a party for who has the most cash to burn. I don't have any problems with magic being somewhat expensive to learn but spells are the rewards of choice for magic users as good guns/armor/PA are for tech characters. If they are not available or so unattainable or stupidly expensive they are always out of reach to the players why would anybody bother playing a magic using OCC in that campaign that was subject to these GM whims.

It is sort of the unintended downside of most of the "traditional" men of magic in rifts the ability to learn spells and buy them should be a bonus but in most campaigns I have played it almost always is a negative with those OCC like warlocks/mystics having a much easier time overall getting the spells they want.

I don't think I have ever seen a GM turn down a spell acquisition from a warlock/mystic as the book says they get x many spells of x level at every level up but take something like a techno wizard who does not gain any spells per level other than what they buy/acquire and I have seen them go 5 or 6 levels without ever being allowed to buy a single new spell.

At some point the players needs to say "screw this quest, we're going some place where Jim can get some spells".

If that's too subtle for the GM, then you have other problems.

--flatline

[Ed]

If the glitterboy pilot sells his glitterboy, he has $25M and no glitterboy.

If a mage sells a spell, he has the money and still knows the spell.

YMMV.

--flatline

That explains why, to follow the analogy, the pricing of spells should more closely resemble that of the glitterboy factory rather than the individual glitterboy.

[kaid]

I always played it in my games that if you were of a men of magic class if you chose to belong to a magic guild and paid your guild dues most spells were reasonably obtainable although the cost varied depending what kind of spell and what level but they were in line with what tech players would pay for new weapons/armor.

If you did not have a guild or could not visit your guild magic spell costs depended where you were. If you went to lazlo or bigger towns/cities in the magic zone you could usually acquire new spells although maybe not the specific one you are hunting for but there would be some options but the were about 50% more expensive than if you got the spell from your guild.

It always struck me as odd when I played in campaigns where the GM took the whole magic is rare thing to basically mean unobtainable to players for purchase even in magic rich cities like dweomer/lazlo. Sure magic is rare but if you are actually in one of the locations where magic users are common and there are a concentrated number of them then it is not rare in that particular location and can be purchased if one has the resources.

Still I have seen this and been subjected to it enough as much as I like OCC like ley line wizards/techno wizards when I go casters I tend to go either with classes with very specific amounts of new spells per level like warlocks/mystics/shaman or classes with such a huge spell list that it would not matter much if you did not get new spells like shifters with a pact to power of magic.

[Nightmask]

If the glitterboy pilot sells his glitterboy, he has $25M and no glitterboy.

If a mage sells a spell, he has the money and still knows the spell.

YMMV.

--flatline

That explains why, to follow the analogy, the pricing of spells should more closely resemble that of the glitterboy factory rather than the individual glitterboy.

No, that really doesn't follow. Mages aren't factories nor should the pricing of spells be treated like the mage was a factory. Spells are knowledge, pure information, there are no production costs involved outside of time in the teaching or learning of them. Palladium treats spell innovation and research as pretty much non-existent, certainly we don't see any mages that ever seem to have unique or new spells to expand things if anyone were spending time in research creating new spells. Even if you originated a spell the price to sell it would decrease as it was taught to others as more people were able to teach the same spell (sure you could keep charging an arm and a leg for it but if others aren't you aren't going to make any money).

[42dragon]

One thing that has always thrown me on the high cost of magic, is that there are very few if any canon instances of what spells are really available and at what cost in Rift's (vague references to rare, or rarely sold). Now there are hard examples in PF but using those examples from alchemists as a guide it is pretty much unheard of to be able to buy a spell over level 4 or 5 tops. No matter what price you are willing to pay. Which does seem to make magic more rare than it really needs to be. Also using canon examples most published NPC's really have no way of ever learning half of what they do unless the GM is way more free and open with the availability of buying spells than the examples.

[Ed]

No, that really doesn't follow. Mages aren't factories nor should the pricing of spells be treated like the mage was a factory. Spells are knowledge, pure information, there are no production costs involved outside of time in the teaching or learning of them. Palladium treats spell innovation and research as pretty much non-existent, certainly we don't see any mages that ever seem to have unique or new spells to expand things if anyone were spending time in research creating new spells. Even if you originated a spell the price to sell it would decrease as it was taught to others as more people were able to teach the same spell (sure you could keep charging an arm and a leg for it but if others aren't you aren't going to make any money).

Spell casting is a perfectly competitive market with low barriers to entry and incentives to expand supply. Spell instruction is a monopolistic competitive market with extremely high barriers to entry and strong incentives to restrict supply. A better analogy would be electricty generation, a local market for electricity is perfectly competitive, electricity is electricity the source is irrelevant to the consumer and there are little to no barriers to entry into the market. Anyone with the cash can buy a generator, wind turbine, or solar panels and sell power to the local grid. This activity is analagous to a spell caster working for hire. Call lightening is call lightening, it doesn't matter if it's cast by a LLW or a mystic.

Learning spells is analagous to becoming a utility. There are significant barriers to entry in terms of cost and legal/competitive. So the presumptive spell instructor has to clear a very high, and growing, hurdle to teach others spells. For example, the "easiest" way to learn the Talisman spell is to become a Temporal Wizard; that takes years of slavery to a other dimensional demon. So a 1st level temporal wizard would be quite willing to sell the output of the spell but not to teach the spell itself. And other temporal wizards, or those who know the spell, have a tremendous incentive to prevent him from widely teaching it outside the small circle of people who already know it.

[flatline]

Learning spells is analagous to becoming a utility. There are significant barriers to entry in terms of cost and legal/competitive. So the presumptive spell instructor has to clear a very high, and growing, hurdle to teach others spells. For example, the "easiest" way to learn the Talisman spell is to become a Temporal Wizard; that takes years of slavery to a other dimensional demon. So a 1st level temporal wizard would be quite willing to sell the output of the spell but not to teach the spell itself. And other temporal wizards, or those who know the spell, have a tremendous incentive to prevent him from widely teaching it outside the small circle of people who already know it.

You're assuming that all mages have the same motives.

If my motive is to make money selling Talismans, then the fewer people there are making Talismans who can compete with me, the better.

If my motive is world conquest for myself and my allies, and I find that my plan for world conquest requires lots of Talismans to be available, I'm going to teach Talisman to as many mages as I need to get the supply level that I require. If this angers some guild, then my plan had better account for it.

If my motive is to make enough money to live comfortably without having to work hard, then selling the Talisman spell to a handful of mages is my best bet since I don't care if they undercut me later. I've already made my money.

And that's just scratching the surface.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

No, that really doesn't follow. Mages aren't factories nor should the pricing of spells be treated like the mage was a factory. Spells are knowledge, pure information, there are no production costs involved outside of time in the teaching or learning of them. Palladium treats spell innovation and research as pretty much non-existent, certainly we don't see any mages that ever seem to have unique or new spells to expand things if anyone were spending time in research creating new spells. Even if you originated a spell the price to sell it would decrease as it was taught to others as more people were able to teach the same spell (sure you could keep charging an arm and a leg for it but if others aren't you aren't going to make any money).

Spell casting is a perfectly competitive market with low barriers to entry and incentives to expand supply. Spell instruction is a monopolistic competitive market with extremely high barriers to entry and strong incentives to restrict supply. A better analogy would be electricty generation, a local market for electricity is perfectly competitive, electricity is electricity the source is irrelevant to the consumer and there are little to no barriers to entry into the market. Anyone with the cash can buy a generator, wind turbine, or solar panels and sell power to the local grid. This activity is analagous to a spell caster working for hire. Call lightening is call lightening, it doesn't matter if it's cast by a LLW or a mystic.

There's nothing monopolistic regarding spell instruction, if you're a spellcaster of a class that can learn and teach spells you can do it and it's been argued ad nauseum in that regard as well as the strong incentives to NOT restrict supply.

Learning spells is analagous to becoming a utility. There are significant barriers to entry in terms of cost and legal/competitive. So the presumptive spell instructor has to clear a very high, and growing, hurdle to teach others spells. For example, the "easiest" way to learn the Talisman spell is to become a Temporal Wizard; that takes years of slavery to a other dimensional demon. So a 1st level temporal wizard would be quite willing to sell the output of the spell but not to teach the spell itself. And other temporal wizards, or those who know the spell, have a tremendous incentive to prevent him from widely teaching it outside the small circle of people who already know it.

Again, no that's just wrong. Learning spells is analogous to someone teaching you that 2+2=4. Spells are knowledge, they aren't electricity or power armor suits or any other flawed analogy you wish to make. While spells have uses so does math, both are just information.

As I've also pointed out repeatedly you need to stop reducing everything to economics, particularly simplistic and idealized markets because they don't exist. An apt example actually comes from the movie 'Back To School', where the protagonist is in a business class and the stuffy uptight teacher is discussing the idealized model for a business only for the protagonist who's actually lived and made his fortune as a businessman asks about all the things he's leaving out and the teacher behaves as if the reality of business is unrealistic when hearing about it from an actual businessman.

Many things of value we have are the result of people producing or learning how to do them to help others, the marketability of these things wasn't a motivating factor for them (even if those funding them may or may not have been motivated by it). The development of the Polio Vaccine was a result of doctors horrified at what the disease was doing as it reached pandemic proportions, not because they looked around and thought 'wow if I can come up with a way to prevent this I can make a fortune selling the vaccine to people'. The same goes with transplant surgery. Spell knowledge and the teaching thereof is just as subject to these other factors as everything else is, where economic factors via with other factors and may lose out against them.

[Daniel Stoker]

I'm going to have to agree with Ed (Yea... I got a shiver after typing that.) on many levels it IS monopolistic Nightmask. Call Lightning is more then just 2+2=4, one is a fairly simple math and the other is a spell that can kill a normal human out of armor and while a mage may be willing to teach that to some people, they're not going to want everyone to be able to do so, and we won't even go with the higher level or more 'useful' spells that can create items or summon monsters etc. Think of it more as a how many people are going to be willing to teach the chemistry to make advanced explosives? Both that and the spell are information but that's going to be controlled either by governments or by the mages themselves and that's going to ratchet up the price.


Daniel Stoker

[Nightmask]

I'm going to have to agree with Ed (Yea... I got a shiver after typing that.) on many levels it IS monopolistic Nightmask. Call Lightning is more then just 2+2=4, one is a fairly simple math and the other is a spell that can kill a normal human out of armor and while a mage may be willing to teach that to some people, they're not going to want everyone to be able to do so, and we won't even go with the higher level or more 'useful' spells that can create items or summon monsters etc. Think of it more as a how many people are going to be willing to teach the chemistry to make advanced explosives? Both that and the spell are information but that's going to be controlled either by governments or by the mages themselves and that's going to ratchet up the price.


Daniel Stoker

I think you have a misunderstanding on what constitutes a monopoly, as that's a single group or person having total or near total control over something. Given the uncounted numbers of independent mages and groups there simply is not and cannot be any kind of monopoly control over spells, whether in the teaching or the casting of them. The most you can do is attempt to do so in a limited area. In regards to math vs spells, it doesn't matter how useful the information is including how directly useful a spell is it's still the same basic deal of Person X teaching some bit of information to person Y.

Some people will always be more willing to share than others, even if it's for more evil reasons (such as the explosives knowledge you note). An example in the common mind sadly too much anymore is terrorists, they're glad to teach others how to make explosives and other kinds of deadly information because they want those who have a desire to do harm in the world to have that knowledge. They have no concerns about it being used against them or those they care about.

Consider the Federation of Magic. One of the things that unifies the loose collection of groups is a hatred of the CS. Teaching mages deadly spells to use against Coalition troops is going to be a motivating force for them (barring Idiot Ball nonsense like we see in the books), hatred can easily motivate someone to reduce or eliminate the price of something if they think it might be used against what they hate.

These kinds of things can easily drive the costs down on something, especially when it's information (just look how much advanced knowledge is available for free on the Internet, information one can use for vast creation as well as vast destruction). It's in your best interest after all to make a primo vampire killing spell as cheap as possible when you have vampires all over the place and hoarding it increases your chances of ending up dead. Greed can get you killed pretty quick after all, and hoarding stuff from others that improves your survival chances will make you a Darwin Award winner at some point.

[Daniel Stoker]

I think you have a misunderstanding on what constitutes a monopoly, as that's a single group or person having total or near total control over something. Given the uncounted numbers of independent mages and groups there simply is not and cannot be any kind of monopoly control over spells, whether in the teaching or the casting of them. The most you can do is attempt to do so in a limited area. In regards to math vs spells, it doesn't matter how useful the information is including how directly useful a spell is it's still the same basic deal of Person X teaching some bit of information to person Y.

That’s actually why I used the world monopolistic. It’s not a true monopoly as many people have access to it, but the point is they’re not just going to hand it out like candy as it’s got value to them and there are reasons to not want to let every schlub who can cast a spell know how to use some and that lack of wiliness to teach and the fact that you can only teach so many at a time is going to help push up the costs of spells.


Daniel Stoker

[flatline]

I think you have a misunderstanding on what constitutes a monopoly, as that's a single group or person having total or near total control over something. Given the uncounted numbers of independent mages and groups there simply is not and cannot be any kind of monopoly control over spells, whether in the teaching or the casting of them. The most you can do is attempt to do so in a limited area. In regards to math vs spells, it doesn't matter how useful the information is including how directly useful a spell is it's still the same basic deal of Person X teaching some bit of information to person Y.

That’s actually why I used the world monopolistic. It’s not a true monopoly as many people have access to it, but the point is they’re not just going to hand it out like candy as it’s got value to them and there are reasons to not want to let every schlub who can cast a spell know how to use some and that lack of wiliness to teach and the fact that you can only teach so many at a time is going to help push up the costs of spells.


Daniel Stoker

If I was interested in learning new spells, I might attempt to teach as many people as possible the spell Create Magic Scroll. If scrolls become more common, then any time I find a scroll for a spell I don't already know, I can attempt to convert it.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

RUE says that the price for a spell that is level 10 through level 15 is nominally between $500,000 and $1,000,000.

Do people really feel that spell prices are high?

--flatline

The price isn't the real crime, the real crime is that it takes 2 days per spell level to learn each of those spells. Like the rest of the party is just going to wait for you...

Rifts as written is pretty anti magic.

How long dos it take to repair PA or a vehicle. It is only anti magic if you say repairs take not time. But if they have to be in town for repairs any ways.

How about the rest the party is you know taking a vacation and relaxing for a few days and the mage is studing. There are lots of reason to spend several days in town.

PA costs 800 credits for 1 MDC to be repaired, so if you repair 600 to 1200 MDC, yes, you have just paid for a 10th to 15th level spell, but instead of spending a month down, your PA which hopefully doesn't have THAT much MDC to begin with, was probably only in the shop for a day or two. Most games I have been in, allow the armorer/operator to repair 100 MDC per day, since Sourcebook 1 that has the costs of repair doesn't go into how long things actually take. Assuming you got your flying titan PA almost destroyed 6 times, taking a whopping 150 MD out of the 180 MDC it has, that would be 900 MDC in repairs, for a total of 720,000 credits and 9 days in the shop. I don't know about you, but I tend to dodge and parry, and very seldom get my PA that damaged, let alone 6x in a row. So I think you are comparing apples and oranges here, when you try to take tech and say, oh ya, there is down time for it as well. Kevin, or whoever wrote this, hates magic and loves tech... so magic is rare, expensive and slow to learn, while any ahole out there can level up and instantly know how to use a new gun or PA.

The only fix I have seen that actually works is to reduce the time to learn a spell from 2 days a level to 2 hours a level. Also, NO THOUGHT was given to trying to equalize starting power levels between tech characters and magic characters. So a magic character, like a LLW starts out with 12 spells worth about 195,000 credits and then a glitterboy gets a PA worth 25 MILLION credits? Who thought up that crap? No, there are some serious problems with magic in Rifts, you can choose to put your head in the ground and say everything is peachy, but it isn't.

Of course, tech oriented players whine whenever you do ANYTHING that makes magic more useable, so I don't expect you to agree

And no, your approach of the party gets to RP and have fun while the mage is locked away is not a good solution for those of us that play mages, we like to participate in the game as well.

I find the fact rebuilding that much armor in such a small amount of time. Think about it how long is your car in the shop when it is 50% trashed? I whould think the amount of time in repairs whould probaly be about that of the spell learning.

[kaid]

Learning magic I think is one of the main reasons people would join magic brotherhoods/guilds. If you paid your guild dues and were never given any access to new spells or sold at prices that made even basic spells unobtainable why would anybody join such an organization?

Simple barter would also I imagine be pretty common amongst mages I know this spell you know that spell you teach me yours I teach you mine. Given most spell casters do gain some spells on their own through level up presumably researching their own it is a good way to pick up some potentially wanted spells that can be traded for other spells.

One simple reason for mages to sell spells is simply putting a roof over their head and getting food to eat. Being able to teach adventurer mages spells is a great way for a less risk taking city dwelling mage to make a great deal of money to live in high style with little danger to themselves. What is the real danger of teaching one spell to schlubs wandering through who likely will die in the wilderness never to be seen again while making a large amount of money for them.

Now I can see some spells being held tightly but overall most basic attack spells/defensive spells are so common across such a wide assortment of men of magic there really is no reason to be to stingy with things like call lightning. Sure it does a fair amount of damage but so does a pistol. If you charge to much for it their money is going to go to people selling techno wizard weapons or conventional fire arms.

Also looking at places like stormspire/tolkeen/arzno/lazlo and other major cities techno wizard items while not factory produces are getting pretty heavily produced and commoditized for sale I cannot imagine people like ley line walkers not wanting to get in on that market selling their spells since it is one of the safest and easiest way to turn their knowledge into wealth and comfort.

[Daniel Stoker]

If I was interested in learning new spells, I might attempt to teach as many people as possible the spell Create Magic Scroll. If scrolls become more common, then any time I find a scroll for a spell I don't already know, I can attempt to convert it.

--flatline

You might, but how many people would especially with the power/danger many of the spells can end up offering? Plus I can see all kinds of groups who wouldn't appreciate all that magic going around and pulling a "Hulk smash silly Hippie handing out free magic! Bad for my business!" on people or small groups trying this.

The thought of a ton of people walking around with the Domination spell just seems to reverberate with CS propaganda.


Daniel Stoker

[Blue_Lion]

My personal opion on is it. Is that mages feel the need to protect magic knowledge. So even the ones that sell spells are picky about who the teach. As I pointed out in another thread RUE makes it look like teaching spells is not something that every mage can do. As they list elder mages 9th level, so that means that verry few of the mages out there can even teach magic.

PB does not creat new invotion spells as often as tech, but look how many difrent types of magic they have. There are rules for creating your own spells posted in another lines books that are cannon.

Now that said do you feel that PB should creat a few new base invocations every book? Think about the night mare that could cause.

[Blue_Lion]

If I was interested in learning new spells, I might attempt to teach as many people as possible the spell Create Magic Scroll. If scrolls become more common, then any time I find a scroll for a spell I don't already know, I can attempt to convert it.

--flatline

You might, but how many people would especially with the power/danger many of the spells can end up offering? Plus I can see all kinds of groups who wouldn't appreciate all that magic going around and pulling a "Hulk smash silly Hippie handing out free magic! Bad for my business!" on people or small groups trying this.

The thought of a ton of people walking around with the Domination spell just seems to reverberate with CS propaganda.


Daniel Stoker

I think he is not looking at it from the mindset presented for mages. That is why he thinks teaching magic to any one is a good thing. We live in a age where information is freely shared that is our culture. For many it is hard to immagine not doing so, in rifts that is not the case. People hoard knowledge be it desines for Pre-rifts articacts the secerate to making GB, the resepee for CS boady armor, Triax cyber pilot tech, or magic. So if the culture is more out to keep knowledge a secerate then the most secerative one out there the mages whould do even more so. That is why Scholors that share knowledge are a type of rouge.

[kaid]

My personal opion on is it. Is that mages feel the need to protect magic knowledge. So even the ones that sell spells are picky about who the teach. As I pointed out in another thread RUE makes it look like teaching spells is not something that every mage can do. As they list elder mages 9th level, so that means that verry few of the mages out there can even teach magic.

PB does not creat new invotion spells as often as tech, but look how many difrent types of magic they have. There are rules for creating your own spells posted in another lines books that are cannon.

Now that said do you feel that PB should creat a few new base invocations every book? Think about the night mare that could cause.

I don't think they should make new base invocations every book but seriously so far there has been one world book so far in the entire length of the rifts series of books that introduced a bunch of commonly accessible invocations and that was the federation of magic. And now with the revised version removing the spells there pretty much are zero world books that add in common invocation spells for players to get.

Sure it would be nasty to keep track of them all if they released more every book but I think given all the books heavy in tech like NG1 NG2 Triax 1 and 2 The CS War book, warlords of russia, japan, New navy, The merc series of books, narauni so on so forth there clearly has been a serious lack of additions to the general invocation pool which has always made me a bit angry.

Every time they do a magic class it is something totally new that has a tiny subset of spells made for themselves that is not available to other casters at all so has very limited applicability. So while they add a lot of new magic in some books 90% of it or more is exclusive to that one OCC.

They need to produce another book like the federation of magic such as a Lazlo world book and have a similar amount of new spells as the federation of magic had. The ones from the federation of magic book really did a lot to fill in a lot of gaps and flavor to common men of magics casting choices.

[kaid]

If I was interested in learning new spells, I might attempt to teach as many people as possible the spell Create Magic Scroll. If scrolls become more common, then any time I find a scroll for a spell I don't already know, I can attempt to convert it.

--flatline

You might, but how many people would especially with the power/danger many of the spells can end up offering? Plus I can see all kinds of groups who wouldn't appreciate all that magic going around and pulling a "Hulk smash silly Hippie handing out free magic! Bad for my business!" on people or small groups trying this.

The thought of a ton of people walking around with the Domination spell just seems to reverberate with CS propaganda.


Daniel Stoker

I think he is not looking at it from the mindset presented for mages. That is why he thinks teaching magic to any one is a good thing. We live in a age where information is freely shared that is our culture. For many it is hard to immagine not doing so, in rifts that is not the case. People hoard knowledge be it desines for Pre-rifts articacts the secerate to making GB, the resepee for CS boady armor, Triax cyber pilot tech, or magic. So if the culture is more out to keep knowledge a secerate then the most secerative one out there the mages whould do even more so. That is why Scholors that share knowledge are a type of rouge.

One of the main reasons I think most mages would be willing to train other mages how to cast at least some spells is not information age free sharing it is simply most people prefer to have good food to eat and a nice place to live and do it in the least dangerous, dirty, painful way possible.

Now sure a mage can hire himself out to cast the spells for hire but that means he has to leave his home and go to work probably doing something that is at very least mildly dangerous and quite possibly life threatening. OR he can use his knowledge to teach others spells now and then charge them a pretty fair amount of cash and live a very high lifestyle with nice cloths lots of food and live in a nice house without having to get shot at and risk death/pain/dismemberment while having lots of free time to research more spells to teach other spell casters who have neither the time nor inclination to do the research but do have the cash.

People are often secretive especially about things of power but people are also lazy and greedy and typically in the end sloth and greed win out over secrecy almost every single time.

[Blue_Lion]

If I was interested in learning new spells, I might attempt to teach as many people as possible the spell Create Magic Scroll. If scrolls become more common, then any time I find a scroll for a spell I don't already know, I can attempt to convert it.

--flatline

You might, but how many people would especially with the power/danger many of the spells can end up offering? Plus I can see all kinds of groups who wouldn't appreciate all that magic going around and pulling a "Hulk smash silly Hippie handing out free magic! Bad for my business!" on people or small groups trying this.

The thought of a ton of people walking around with the Domination spell just seems to reverberate with CS propaganda.


Daniel Stoker

I think he is not looking at it from the mindset presented for mages. That is why he thinks teaching magic to any one is a good thing. We live in a age where information is freely shared that is our culture. For many it is hard to immagine not doing so, in rifts that is not the case. People hoard knowledge be it desines for Pre-rifts articacts the secerate to making GB, the resepee for CS boady armor, Triax cyber pilot tech, or magic. So if the culture is more out to keep knowledge a secerate then the most secerative one out there the mages whould do even more so. That is why Scholors that share knowledge are a type of rouge.

One of the main reasons I think most mages would be willing to train other mages how to cast at least some spells is not information age free sharing it is simply most people prefer to have good food to eat and a nice place to live and do it in the least dangerous, dirty, painful way possible.

Now sure a mage can hire himself out to cast the spells for hire but that means he has to leave his home and go to work probably doing something that is at very least mildly dangerous and quite possibly life threatening. OR he can use his knowledge to teach others spells now and then charge them a pretty fair amount of cash and live a very high lifestyle with nice cloths lots of food and live in a nice house without having to get shot at and risk death/pain/dismemberment while having lots of free time to research more spells to teach other spell casters who have neither the time nor inclination to do the research but do have the cash.

People are often secretive especially about things of power but people are also lazy and greedy and typically in the end sloth and greed win out over secrecy almost every single time.

that is just it if it is a rare servis they come to you. If it is a comon servis you travel to do it. The mages that want to travel do those that don't have the work come to them. By training competion that means you make a short term buck but it becomes harder to do later. Also they know what happens when the power of knowledge is misused, it was called a kataclysm. They may feel responcible if they share knowledge and it is misused. Not every one cares about money again that is a focus of culture you live in.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I was interested in learning new spells, I might attempt to teach as many people as possible the spell Create Magic Scroll. If scrolls become more common, then any time I find a scroll for a spell I don't already know, I can attempt to convert it.

--flatline

You might, but how many people would especially with the power/danger many of the spells can end up offering? Plus I can see all kinds of groups who wouldn't appreciate all that magic going around and pulling a "Hulk smash silly Hippie handing out free magic! Bad for my business!" on people or small groups trying this.

The thought of a ton of people walking around with the Domination spell just seems to reverberate with CS propaganda.


Daniel Stoker

I think he is not looking at it from the mindset presented for mages. That is why he thinks teaching magic to any one is a good thing. We live in a age where information is freely shared that is our culture. For many it is hard to immagine not doing so, in rifts that is not the case. People hoard knowledge be it desines for Pre-rifts articacts the secerate to making GB, the resepee for CS boady armor, Triax cyber pilot tech, or magic. So if the culture is more out to keep knowledge a secerate then the most secerative one out there the mages whould do even more so. That is why Scholors that share knowledge are a type of rouge.

One of the main reasons I think most mages would be willing to train other mages how to cast at least some spells is not information age free sharing it is simply most people prefer to have good food to eat and a nice place to live and do it in the least dangerous, dirty, painful way possible.

Now sure a mage can hire himself out to cast the spells for hire but that means he has to leave his home and go to work probably doing something that is at very least mildly dangerous and quite possibly life threatening. OR he can use his knowledge to teach others spells now and then charge them a pretty fair amount of cash and live a very high lifestyle with nice cloths lots of food and live in a nice house without having to get shot at and risk death/pain/dismemberment while having lots of free time to research more spells to teach other spell casters who have neither the time nor inclination to do the research but do have the cash.

People are often secretive especially about things of power but people are also lazy and greedy and typically in the end sloth and greed win out over secrecy almost every single time.

Well, let's take a look...

Let's say that a mage knows the spell Cleanse.
He can sell that spell for CR 10,000 (RUE 190). This will take four days of his time.
Or he can sell his services casting it, for CR 300-600 (VKr 149).

So he can work for four days and make CR 10,000, or he can work four day and make....
Well, that depends entirely on the demand for his services. If he has a centralized shop, and people are constantly walking into his shop wanting him to cast the spell for (or on) them, then working an 8 hour day (not counting lunch), he could cast the spell (1 casting per attack, 4 attacks per melee, 4 melees per minute... that's 16 castings per minute, times 60 minutes per hour... that's 96 castings per hour, times 8 hours...) 768 times (PPE permitting) per day, for CR 460,800 per day, for a total of CR 1,843,200 over the same 4 day period that he would have made CR 10,000 selling the spell.
Of course, most mages aren't going to make anywhere NEAR that.
There'd be limitations in PPE available, and limitations in customer demand.
That's just the high-end of things, what a busy professional mage in Lazlo (one with the right setup) might hope for, and probably could never get.

On the LOW end of things... well, there's no telling. If there's no demand at all for the spell, then he can't make any money selling his services... but he probably can't make any money teaching the spell either.
Let's assume that the demand is low enough that he's only getting CR 300 per casting.
That means that it would take 33 castings for him to make CR 10,000+
If he averages about 8 customers per day, he'd end up making about the same amount of money in that 4-day period as if he sold the spell itself.
But at 1/16th of a minute per casting, he'd only be performing only about two minutes of actual work in that 4-day period.
As opposed to if he's teaching people how to cast the spell, in which case he's spending 4 days working... in order to make the same amount of cash than he'd make with one well-placed minute's worth of labor.
I'd say that the lazier thing would be to sell the spell services, NOT the spell.

Also, Cleanse is one of the cheaper (and probably more common) spell services.
The more expensive spell services (Again, VKr 149), such as casting AoI, Breathe Without Air, Float in Air, Fly, Fly as the Eagle, Purification, "and so on," costs CR 1,000 per level of the spell being cast, plus as much as a 50% "difficulty fee."

So if the mage wants to teach somebody Armor of Ithan, that'll take him 6 days of work, and it'll pay him CR 20,000.
If he sells his spell services for casting that spell, he makes CR 3,000 per casting, so 7 castings will mean that he's made CR 21,000. That's less than two melee rounds (30 seconds) of actual work. This might take him 6 days to find that many customers... but it also might happen within one 8-hour day's worth of either looking for customers, or laying in a hammock while you're waiting for them to come to you.

[flatline]

If I was interested in learning new spells, I might attempt to teach as many people as possible the spell Create Magic Scroll. If scrolls become more common, then any time I find a scroll for a spell I don't already know, I can attempt to convert it.

--flatline

You might, but how many people would especially with the power/danger many of the spells can end up offering? Plus I can see all kinds of groups who wouldn't appreciate all that magic going around and pulling a "Hulk smash silly Hippie handing out free magic! Bad for my business!" on people or small groups trying this.

The thought of a ton of people walking around with the Domination spell just seems to reverberate with CS propaganda.


Daniel Stoker

I think he is not looking at it from the mindset presented for mages. That is why he thinks teaching magic to any one is a good thing. We live in a age where information is freely shared that is our culture. For many it is hard to immagine not doing so, in rifts that is not the case. People hoard knowledge be it desines for Pre-rifts articacts the secerate to making GB, the resepee for CS boady armor, Triax cyber pilot tech, or magic. So if the culture is more out to keep knowledge a secerate then the most secerative one out there the mages whould do even more so. That is why Scholors that share knowledge are a type of rouge.

One of the main reasons I think most mages would be willing to train other mages how to cast at least some spells is not information age free sharing it is simply most people prefer to have good food to eat and a nice place to live and do it in the least dangerous, dirty, painful way possible.

Now sure a mage can hire himself out to cast the spells for hire but that means he has to leave his home and go to work probably doing something that is at very least mildly dangerous and quite possibly life threatening. OR he can use his knowledge to teach others spells now and then charge them a pretty fair amount of cash and live a very high lifestyle with nice cloths lots of food and live in a nice house without having to get shot at and risk death/pain/dismemberment while having lots of free time to research more spells to teach other spell casters who have neither the time nor inclination to do the research but do have the cash.

People are often secretive especially about things of power but people are also lazy and greedy and typically in the end sloth and greed win out over secrecy almost every single time.

Well, let's take a look...

Let's say that a mage knows the spell Cleanse.
He can sell that spell for CR 10,000 (RUE 190). This will take four days of his time.
Or he can sell his services casting it, for CR 300-600 (VKr 149).

So he can work for four days and make CR 10,000, or he can work four day and make....
Well, that depends entirely on the demand for his services. If he has a centralized shop, and people are constantly walking into his shop wanting him to cast the spell for (or on) them, then working an 8 hour day (not counting lunch), he could cast the spell (1 casting per attack, 4 attacks per melee, 4 melees per minute... that's 16 castings per minute, times 60 minutes per hour... that's 96 castings per hour, times 8 hours...) 768 times (PPE permitting) per day, for CR 460,800 per day, for a total of CR 1,843,200 over the same 4 day period that he would have made CR 10,000 selling the spell.
Of course, most mages aren't going to make anywhere NEAR that.
There'd be limitations in PPE available, and limitations in customer demand.
That's just the high-end of things, what a busy professional mage in Lazlo (one with the right setup) might hope for, and probably could never get.

On the LOW end of things... well, there's no telling. If there's no demand at all for the spell, then he can't make any money selling his services... but he probably can't make any money teaching the spell either.
Let's assume that the demand is low enough that he's only getting CR 300 per casting.
That means that it would take 33 castings for him to make CR 10,000+
If he averages about 8 customers per day, he'd end up making about the same amount of money in that 4-day period as if he sold the spell itself.
But at 1/16th of a minute per casting, he'd only be performing only about two minutes of actual work in that 4-day period.
As opposed to if he's teaching people how to cast the spell, in which case he's spending 4 days working... in order to make the same amount of cash than he'd make with one well-placed minute's worth of labor.
I'd say that the lazier thing would be to sell the spell services, NOT the spell.

Also, Cleanse is one of the cheaper (and probably more common) spell services.
The more expensive spell services (Again, VKr 149), such as casting AoI, Breathe Without Air, Float in Air, Fly, Fly as the Eagle, Purification, "and so on," costs CR 1,000 per level of the spell being cast, plus as much as a 50% "difficulty fee."

So if the mage wants to teach somebody Armor of Ithan, that'll take him 6 days of work, and it'll pay him CR 20,000.
If he sells his spell services for casting that spell, he makes CR 3,000 per casting, so 7 castings will mean that he's made CR 21,000. That's less than two melee rounds (30 seconds) of actual work. This might take him 6 days to find that many customers... but it also might happen within one 8-hour day's worth of either looking for customers, or laying in a hammock while you're waiting for them to come to you.

So we can conclude one or more of the following:
1. the prices given in RUE for purchasing spells are too low
2. the prices charged for "spell services" are too high
3. two days per spell level is a vastly inflated amount of time required of the teacher to teach a spell to a student

I'm quite comfortable concluding all three, actually.

--flatline

[Ed]

Learning spells is analagous to becoming a utility. There are significant barriers to entry in terms of cost and legal/competitive. So the presumptive spell instructor has to clear a very high, and growing, hurdle to teach others spells. For example, the "easiest" way to learn the Talisman spell is to become a Temporal Wizard; that takes years of slavery to a other dimensional demon. So a 1st level temporal wizard would be quite willing to sell the output of the spell but not to teach the spell itself. And other temporal wizards, or those who know the spell, have a tremendous incentive to prevent him from widely teaching it outside the small circle of people who already know it.

You're assuming that all mages have the same motives.

Yes. I am. Mages seek to maximize their personal benefit (however defined) and minimize their personal cost (however defined).

If my motive is to make money selling Talismans, then the fewer people there are making Talismans who can compete with me, the better.

Plain enough. Number of competitors is a given determinant of supply. KC did an excellent write up on the cost-benefit structure of selling the output of spell casting verses teaching/sharing the spell.

If my motive is world conquest for myself and my allies, and I find that my plan for world conquest requires lots of Talismans to be available, I'm going to teach Talisman to as many mages as I need to get the supply level that I require. If this angers some guild, then my plan had better account for it.

Two problems come immediately to mind:

1. There is no in-game way for you to tell which guild(s) are going to be angry, how angry they will be, when they will get angry, or what form their anger will take. There's no way to account for that many unknowns without meta-game knowledge. If your actions angered the Pacifistic Guild of Fluffy Bunny Huggers (PGFBH) the reaction would take one form. If you pissed off the Guild of the Gifted, the reaction would be orders of magnitude less survivable.

2. Given the alignments involved how does the plan account for one (or more) of the recipients of your largess being a violent proponent of the me-first attitude you describe in the situation above?

If my motive is to make enough money to live comfortably without having to work hard, then selling the Talisman spell to a handful of mages is my best bet since I don't care if they undercut me later. I've already made my money.

Several problems here too. Though some are more technical than others.
1. How do you prevent the type of deflationary death spiral you believe should occur to spell prices? In other words, what's to stop student number 1 from immediately undercutting your next sale?
2. See KC's spell casting income write up. It's possible to live extremely well off the income from spell casting with trivial amounts of time spent working.
3. Time value of money: there's no marketing or selling period in this plan, given the high cost of the spell it's doubtful you will be able to find enough people willing and able to simultaneously purchase Talisman at your full asking price. You'll be forced to either discount or wait to acquire new customers and the longer you have to wait the less valuable your payment becomes and the more likely you are to offend other spell merchants.
4. Finally, in order to quick sale like you plan you're going to have to enter the market at the clearing price, meaning since the demand curve slopes downward towards the quantity axis, each sale will be for less money than the one before. You won't have to worry about being undercut by your students, you'll do it to yourself.

And that's just scratching the surface.

True.

--flatline[/quote]

[Ed]

So we can conclude one or more of the following:
1. the prices given in RUE for purchasing spells is too low
2. the prices charged for casting spells is too high
3. two days per spell level is a vastly inflated amount of time required of the teacher to teach a spell to a student

I'm quite comfortable concluding all three, actually.

--flatline

Or 4. the prices reflect rational decisions and the interaction of supply and demand in a setting where magic is regarded as a scarce and precious resource not to be shared casually.