Updated First RW Mecha in the Sentinels campaign.....

[Seto Kaiba]

We also see them as infantry weapons with independant power supplies as well.

Powered by a protoculture cell, IIRC.

I don't think any of the above indicates that its technically unfeasible to refit the MAC with an upgraded power plant and some heavy Railguns to improve its capabilities as a firesupport and anti-ship platform.

Oh, it's certainly possible IF the UEDF had the available technology and/or materials to make it feasible... or at least feasible AND practical at the same time. The Monster and other units like it were abandoned shortly after the 1st RW, so it seems it was either not feasible or not worth the effort.

Given that the round would be smaller, that would allow the Monster to stay in the fight longer by carrying more rounds, so I would call that an advantage over the conventional cannon version even if the two ended up at the same performance level.

Barrel wear is a bigger issue with railguns than it is with conventional cannons... at least, for real-world examples of those two alternatives. It may not necessarily be a power issue, it may be a materials issue preventing them from using them in mecha before 2043. The point is, there is SOME factor out there that made railguns unattractive to the Earth Forces for DECADES.

That doesn't disqualify mecha from using larger and less portable versions.

But it does underline that, even in the 2040s, railguns were considered experimental as anything other than starship-based artillery.

[ShadowLogan]

Barrel wear is a bigger issue with railguns than it is with conventional cannons... at least, for real-world examples of those two alternatives. It may not necessarily be a power issue, it may be a materials issue preventing them from using them in mecha before 2043. The point is, there is SOME factor out there that made railguns unattractive to the Earth Forces for DECADES.

The SDF-1 and Tri-star versions show barrel life is a non-issue with them (neither the 2E RPG nor the Infopedia mention such a fact) indicating it would be a non-issue for the Monster or other platforms by 2009.

If there was a factor out there making them unattractive for widespread adoption, I would go with COST. We know the UEDF/UEEF doesn't have a blank check/unlimited funds given that cost was a factor in limiting or preventing programs (VR-041 and VF-X-4 as examples). That doesn't mean the UEDF: RDF/ASC wouldn't look to have "silver bullet" options using the technology in a mixed force with conventional vehicles.

But it does underline that, even in the 2040s, railguns were considered experimental as anything other than starship-based artillery.

What it really underlines is that the technology in the role of a light anti-tank weapon is still experimental, but nothing to rule out heavier weapons that fall in between the classifications that should logically exist.

[RiverJack]

railguns would actually require less power than a energy weapon of equivalent ability to impart damage.

My point exactly....

It depends on the power source, they type of energy weapon you are comparing the railgun too, how the railgun is built. In the end though Lasers really are the most powerful weapon you could want in a fictional and nonfictional world excluding fully made up weapons that could never work in real life no matter how advanced we are any species is.

I am just through this out, it is an extreme example BUT if we could harness the power of a mega buster and use it to make a powerful laser beam, that Laser beam would 100% as powerful as that mega buster except it could also transfer that amount of energy into a smaller point, this is excluding any lasers that can produce Laser beams that are more powerful than the energy put into them. Now to do the same thing with a Railgun or any weapon that functions like a Railgun would be next to impossible and the results would not be anywhere near the same.

Another reason Laser weaponry and some other energy beams make better weapons than Railguns is the cost of the Laser beam compared to the projectile itself. This is one of the reasons the United States Navy is going to use Lasers, it cost little more than an American Quarter per each beam as apposed to a hundred-thousand plus per shell for.

Even though they were limited runs I see the Laser Armed Defenders and MACII doing some series damage with their unique weapons and at the same time being more ammo conservative than the other versions packing cartages and missiles.

[Seto Kaiba]

The SDF-1 and Tri-star versions show barrel life is a non-issue with them (neither the 2E RPG nor the Infopedia mention such a fact) indicating it would be a non-issue for the Monster or other platforms by 2009.

Yes, but 2E is not canon, and the Infopedia is legendarily sparse information-wise... there has to be a reason that the Earth forces didn't bother to apply railgun technology to their mecha until the 2040s. The OSM offers a plethora of excuses as to why bullets work better than beams, but it's hard to say if any of them actually apply to Robotech's lower tech levels.

It depends on the power source, they type of energy weapon you are comparing the railgun too, how the railgun is built. In the end though Lasers really are the most powerful weapon you could want in a fictional and nonfictional world excluding fully made up weapons that could never work in real life no matter how advanced we are any species is.

At the same power level, a particle beam is more damaging than a laser in the real world, in Robotech, and in all three of the original shows. The reason being that photons are massless, spin-1 particles that carry no kinetic damage potential to speak of. Laser weapons rely on surface-heating of the target to do damage, which can be easily disrupted by ablation of the target surface due to heating, or even mundane concerns like banks of fog that obscure the laser's path, causing it to lose focus and energy to the obscuring material. Your average particle beam is using particles with mass (electrons, or really any other subatomic or atomic particle) which, when accelerated using electrostatic or other forces, carries not just the charge of the particle itself but also the kinetic energy accrued by the relativistic acceleration. At a stand-still, those particles have infinitesimally small mass, but because they're moving at relativistic speeds they carry an enormous quantity of kinetic energy which is transferred to the target. (This is why the RPG describes particle cannons as hitting like a huge, mega-damage wrecking ball and can knock enemies down.)

Most SF weaponry is actually some form of conventional or exotic particle beam weaponry... e.g. Star Trek's phasers (Nadion particle beam weapons), Star Wars blasters (ionized particle beam weapons), Macross's various particle beam weapons (electron PB, charged PB, graviton, super dimension energy, etc.), MOSPEADA's synchrotron cannon, etc.

[ShadowLogan]

Yes, but 2E is not canon, and the Infopedia is legendarily sparse information-wise... there has to be a reason that the Earth forces didn't bother to apply railgun technology to their mecha until the 2040s. The OSM offers a plethora of excuses as to why bullets work better than beams, but it's hard to say if any of them actually apply to Robotech's lower tech levels.

I think we need to agree that there are 2 canons we are discussing here and While they do have overlap, they also have their differences and what may apply to one may not apply to the other or apply but with a different result. Just look at the Monster's barrel life between the two sources. That shows IMHO the two are seperate canons, but the mere fact they mention the barrel life here suggests either it was omitted, it is a non-issue, or "railgun" here is technobabble and not the real thing.

I think cost prohibitive is the likely answer to why it wasn't common on mecha, even in the 2040s. I wouldn't rule out what amounts to a silverbullet force among the overall structure (that would still allow the RG to be rare/uncommon and allow examples of the technology progressing in size reduction).

Well RT does have laser resistant materials, so it is unlikely any faction is going to want to rely solely on one type of weapon (and bullets are cheaper than missiles).

[Seto Kaiba]

I think we need to agree that there are 2 canons [...]

Honestly, I don't see any need... the RPG is not canon, full stop. Never has been, never will be.

That shows IMHO the two are seperate canons, but the mere fact they mention the barrel life here suggests either it was omitted, it is a non-issue, or "railgun" here is technobabble and not the real thing.

In practical, official terms... it simply means that the book's writer made an error, and that said error was missed in editorial review of the book. The RPG is not considered to be a separate Robotech universe. This sort of thing is simply to be expected in a licensed RPG, which is why licensed RPGs are practically never canon in any sense.

I think cost prohibitive is the likely answer to why it wasn't common on mecha, even in the 2040s. [...]

The more I review the subject, the more I'm leaning heavily towards it simply not being practical until the late 2030s or the early 2040s (whenever the railgun in question was introduced). There are all manner of potential reasons why... such as a lack of consistent resource influx for ammo manufacturing, insufficient barrel material ablation resistance, the lack of recoil compensation systems small enough to mount on available mecha, etc. It wouldn't surprise me of the anti-capship railgun tech uses contra-gravity effects for recoil compensation, and they just couldn't build that tech small enough.

Well RT does have laser resistant materials, so it is unlikely any faction is going to want to rely solely on one type of weapon (and bullets are cheaper than missiles).

They've got plenty of bullet-resistant materials too...

[ShadowLogan]

Honestly, I don't see any need... the RPG is not canon, full stop. Never has been, never will be.

I am not saying the RPG is part of the series canon, but it has an internal canon (for consistency) that applies only to itself much the same way the novels operate. It would save everyone a headache if particular versions are just treated as an AU with their own canon in discussions.

They've got plenty of bullet-resistant materials too...

All the more reason to have wide variety of options for their forces to be able to engage with so they can be as effective as possible.

The more I review the subject, the more I'm leaning heavily towards it simply not being practical until the late 2030s or the early 2040s (whenever the railgun in question was introduced). There are all manner of potential reasons why... such as a lack of consistent resource influx for ammo manufacturing, insufficient barrel material ablation resistance, the lack of recoil compensation systems small enough to mount on available mecha, etc. It wouldn't surprise me of the anti-capship railgun tech uses contra-gravity effects for recoil compensation, and they just couldn't build that tech small enough.

I still think cost is the most likely answer.

Ammo manufacturing really doesn't strike me as an explanation given what is written about Lunk's APRGC using Tungsten, but can switch to more common ferous materials for reduced performance and the ammo manufactured in a cave workshop without being as smart as Tony Stark.

Recoil compensation is hardly an issue for some of the heavier mecha (multi-ton range) IF the weapon is designed to generate recoil the mecha can handle. There is no rule that the Railgun has to be the BFG in terms of raw power. They could be using Railgun technology to increase bullet capacity with minimal improvement in energy delivered (ex, convert the TZ-IV cluster's 25mm projectile cannon into a 25mm railgun with similar recoil, but the rounds now are smaller so you can increase the payload) instead of going full out BFG with the weapon (ex making that 25mm in previous example act as a 78mm).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Well RT does have laser resistant materials, so it is unlikely any faction is going to want to rely solely on one type of weapon (and bullets are cheaper than missiles).

Energy resistant, in fact, since Bioroid drum and disc-blasters aren't lasers.

[Seto Kaiba]

It would save everyone a headache if particular versions are just treated as an AU with their own canon in discussions.

It'd save everyone a lot of headaches if Harmony Gold acknowledged a few various RT titles as alterniverses already.

All the more reason to have wide variety of options for their forces to be able to engage with so they can be as effective as possible.

It may, in fact, be the reason they went with a purely energy-weapon approach initially... the super-materials used in the armor of various mecha may have been too resistant to conventional bullets in more reasonable calibers to make a railgun attractive as an alternative. Or it may have been that manufacturing large quantities of bullets in various high calibers in later years was deemed too much of a strain on Earth's limited manufacturing capabilities, and they went with beam guns and other energy weapons to circumvent the problem. The move back towards slug-throwers may have been initiated in response to the Invid occupation force's moderate resistance to energy small arms, exhibited in the New Generation.

Just a theory or two, but something to consider at least.

That would be taking Robotech in the opposite direction of the original Macross, where the prevalence of armor with excellent energy weapon-resistance and anti-beam coatings made specialized AP ammunition an attractive option for most mecha, until reactor outputs reached a level where "power overwhelming" beam weaponry was an option for fighters.

Ammo manufacturing really doesn't strike me as an explanation given what is written about Lunk's APRGC using Tungsten, but can switch to more common ferous materials for reduced performance and the ammo manufactured in a cave workshop without being as smart as Tony Stark.

That just sounds silly, to be honest. I mean, you can build a workable railgun in your garage with materials from your local hardware store if you really wanted to, but it's not exactly going to be an anti-armor weapon. Specialized armor-piercing ammunition is not the sort of thing you can make with cave industry, unless he's using some kind of reusable sabot for his rifle that lets him fire any old thing he feels like. I'd write that off as Palladium holding the idiot ball again.

Recoil compensation is hardly an issue for some of the heavier mecha (multi-ton range) IF the weapon is designed to generate recoil the mecha can handle.

But, with the prevalence of high-powered beam weaponry, in order to achieve a result comparable to the destructive power of some of those beam weapons, you're gonna need to get a slug moving incredibly fast... and unlike beam weaponry in the series, that's going to produce some pretty impressive recoil forces. The approach the Earth Forces seem to be taking with their railgun tech is the "BFG" approach, or at least the "heavy anti-material cannon" approach. Much more than a human's going to be able to cope with (based on performance of similar caliber weapons with half the muzzle energy from RL). You would be looking at serious injury if a regular human tried to fire the HRG-70 without a well-anchored tripod mount or some other means of preventing the body from experiencing the recoil force of a gun like that.

[ShadowLogan]

It may, in fact, be the reason they went with a purely energy-weapon approach initially...

Neither the UEDF:ASC nor the UEEF went with a pure energy weapon approach given both still used missiles. There are also roles that the humble bullet/shell would still be suited for over beam weaponry so it would be unlikely to see complete abandonment.

It bears mentioning that Political lobbying or political philosophies may also be a factor here without any actual technical rationale or need/desire by the forces themselves.

That just sounds silly, to be honest. I mean, you can build a workable railgun in your garage with materials from your local hardware store if you really wanted to, but it's not exactly going to be an anti-armor weapon. Specialized armor-piercing ammunition is not the sort of thing you can make with cave industry, unless he's using some kind of reusable sabot for his rifle that lets him fire any old thing he feels like. I'd write that off as Palladium holding the idiot ball again.

All that Palladium is saying is that the ammunition for the Railgun can be easily manufactured, though materials used would effect performance. The railgun round isn't as sophisticated as a bullet from manufacturing standpoint if it relies on pure Kinetic Energy. Accuracy, kinetic energy, and range may suffer though.

But, with the prevalence of high-powered beam weaponry, in order to achieve a result comparable to the destructive power of some of those beam weapons, you're gonna need to get a slug moving incredibly fast

Even with high powered beam weaponry, the UEDF/UEEF still retained use of missiles. So I don't think destructive power is the deciding factor.

Velocity increase is not the only way to increase Kinetic Energy, though it is the best way.

You would be looking at serious injury if a regular human tried to fire the HRG-70 without a well-anchored tripod mount or some other means of preventing the body from experiencing the recoil force of a gun like that.

I am assuming their would be proper use procedure, but the weapon does appear to be man-portable. Maybe not like an M-16/AK-47 is, but certainly man-portable like some guns are with teams.

[RiverJack]

The SDF-1 and Tri-star versions show barrel life is a non-issue with them (neither the 2E RPG nor the Infopedia mention such a fact) indicating it would be a non-issue for the Monster or other platforms by 2009.

Yes, but 2E is not canon, and the Infopedia is legendarily sparse information-wise... there has to be a reason that the Earth forces didn't bother to apply railgun technology to their mecha until the 2040s. The OSM offers a plethora of excuses as to why bullets work better than beams, but it's hard to say if any of them actually apply to Robotech's lower tech levels.

It depends on the power source, they type of energy weapon you are comparing the railgun too, how the railgun is built. In the end though Lasers really are the most powerful weapon you could want in a fictional and nonfictional world excluding fully made up weapons that could never work in real life no matter how advanced we are any species is.

At the same power level, a particle beam is more damaging than a laser in the real world, in Robotech, and in all three of the original shows. The reason being that photons are massless, spin-1 particles that carry no kinetic damage potential to speak of. Laser weapons rely on surface-heating of the target to do damage, which can be easily disrupted by ablation of the target surface due to heating, or even mundane concerns like banks of fog that obscure the laser's path, causing it to lose focus and energy to the obscuring material. Your average particle beam is using particles with mass (electrons, or really any other subatomic or atomic particle) which, when accelerated using electrostatic or other forces, carries not just the charge of the particle itself but also the kinetic energy accrued by the relativistic acceleration. At a stand-still, those particles have infinitesimally small mass, but because they're moving at relativistic speeds they carry an enormous quantity of kinetic energy which is transferred to the target. (This is why the RPG describes particle cannons as hitting like a huge, mega-damage wrecking ball and can knock enemies down.)

Most SF weaponry is actually some form of conventional or exotic particle beam weaponry... e.g. Star Trek's phasers (Nadion particle beam weapons), Star Wars blasters (ionized particle beam weapons), Macross's various particle beam weapons (electron PB, charged PB, graviton, super dimension energy, etc.), MOSPEADA's synchrotron cannon, etc.

Well for starters Lasers are Particle beams because photons are a particle. Most people don't realize that or that Photons do have mass. Once you get into they higher end Laser you'll notice that they do cause thermal Kinetic damage. But like I was saying Lasers really are the most power weapon you can have a non-Laser Particle beams can never be more powerful because of the way the weapon it self functions, they are essentially basically Rail Guns that fire particles. Right now the most powerful Laser being built is capable of destroying the fabric of space. The UK or EU will be using this for experiments in space.

As for countermeasures they really are not an issue mechanical hyper pulsing and and wavelength adjustments make most if not all countermeasures the US Army hypothesize would easily counter lasers not work. NG and the United States Navy successfully made a powerful Laser to use in maritime conditions not to mention they will be using soon a free electron Laser that can Burn through 20 feet of steel per sec which is impressive when it comes to weapons.

I don't have much to say about Trek, however in Star Wars Blasters are not just one type of beam weapon like you listed, there googoobs of different companies that make different style of Energy weapons so-many its just easier too label them blaster. Lasers, Turbo Lasers, Super Lasers, on the other hand are Lasers as it is stated in multiple tech manuals they are just more exotic than what we have, what we have is getting close though, we have made Laser bolts, we have made Laser move at 33 mph, we have made Lasers move at 300 times the speed of light, JFYI C is not a constant, we have manipulated Lasers to make 90 degree turns with magnetic fields.

[RiverJack]

Honestly, I don't see any need... the RPG is not canon, full stop. Never
All the more reason to have wide variety of options for their forces to be able to engage with so they can be as effective as possible.

Yeah or just use weapons so powerful that it doesn't matter if the armor is resistant or not. That OR they could go the rout Wookiees in Star Wars did, if I am not mistaken their bow casters, which are mass drivers, fire metal bolts covered in Laser energy. If RT could us hybrid weapons like that it could minimize the effectiveness of resistant specific armor.

[RiverJack]

Well RT does have laser resistant materials, so it is unlikely any faction is going to want to rely solely on one type of weapon (and bullets are cheaper than missiles).

Energy resistant, in fact, since Bioroid drum and disc-blasters aren't lasers.

Are you sure that Disc-blasters are not Lasers? I have seen many sources say that the Bioroid drum is a ion pulse weapon but for the later I have only seen it called a pulse beam. If is a Calvary reference I personally feel it should not count as a reference for RT because they are two different universes even if they share the same machines to a degree.

[Seto Kaiba]

It bears mentioning that Political lobbying or political philosophies may also be a factor here without any actual technical rationale or need/desire by the forces themselves.

Per the RPG, and Tommy's stance on the animated continuity, the political arena after the 1st Robotech War was mostly for show and had little or no actual power or influence to speak of. That would seem to make this rather unlikely.

I am assuming their would be proper use procedure, but the weapon does appear to be man-portable. Maybe not like an M-16/AK-47 is, but certainly man-portable like some guns are with teams.

I doubt it, honestly... it may be man-portable in the sense that it can be carried by an unaugmented human, but firing that cannon would cause severe injury to the user. Guns with less than half the muzzle energy of that railgun (most notoriously the PTRS-41 14.5x114mm anti-tank rifle firing KKV rounds) had an unpleasant reputation for breaking the user's arm and/or shoulder, collarbone, etc. when fired, even when braced with an anchored bipod. A gun developing better than twice that muzzle energy as a rapid-fire weapon is going to send the operator to the medics unless it's on a stationary ground-mount or carried on a recoil-compensating powered suit.

Well for starters Lasers are Particle beams because photons are a particle.

Both in real-world applications, and in science fiction in general, laser technology does not fall under the umbrella of particle beam technology for a variety of reasons. For the purposes of our discussion, and as a simple fact of the terminology's use in the real world, a laser is not a particle beam.

Most people don't realize that or that Photons do have mass.

Photons do, in fact, have mass... but their mass is so infinitesimally small compared to other elementary particles that they are, for all practical concerns, considered to be massless.

Once you get into they higher end Laser you'll notice that they do cause thermal Kinetic damage. But like I was saying Lasers really are the most power weapon you can have a non-Laser Particle beams can never be more powerful because of the way the weapon it self functions, they are essentially basically Rail Guns that fire particles.

I'm afraid you may have some very, VERY severe misconceptions about how a laser functions. Laser technology relies upon the optical amplification and collimation of light, the photons themselves are not accelerated electromagnetically. On many forms of laser technology, electromagnetic forces are used in the stimulated emission process, but that's all. They are not, in any way, shape, or form, relatives of railgun technology the way particle beam technology is. In a particle beam emitter, electromagnetic and/or electrostatic fields are used to accelerate particles to relativistic speeds, conveying large amounts of kinetic energy to the target. A railgun similarly uses electromagnetic force to provide acceleration.

Right now the most powerful Laser being built is capable of destroying the fabric of space. The UK or EU will be using this for experiments in space.

You may be being misled as to the efficacy of lasers by the high-powered ultra-short pulse research lasers... which have a high peak power, but are only capable of producing a beam for a nanosecond or so. In terms of weapon applications, laser technology is less destructive by far than particle beam weaponry at similar power outputs because of the physics of both systems. The greater destructive potential of particle beam weaponry is the reason that practically all SF series treat the laser as the particle beam's inferior, low-power cousin... Robotech is no exception, nor are the three original shows it consists of.

(As a side note, exotic particle beam weaponry is generally depicted as being more powerful than regular particle weapons by most science fiction series. A general hierarchy of energy weapons, from most potent to least potent, looks something like this for most SF:

(Extra)Dimensional energy (Most Powerful)
Exotic Particle (incl. Antimatter)
Conventional Particle (incl. Charged)
Lasers (Least Powerful))

I don't have much to say about Trek, however in Star Wars Blasters are not just one type of beam weapon like you listed, [...]

Tell me I'm not a Star Wars expert and I'll cheerfully cop to it... however, based on the information available to me it does appear that you are correct about this. Star Wars "Blaster" technology is an umbrella term applied to both the conventional particle beam technology (e.g. the BlasTech E-11), albeit at a non-relativistic scale, or an older system that combined the effects of plasma and laser technology.

Yeah or just use weapons so powerful that it doesn't matter if the armor is resistant or not.

There is that option, yeah... though the UEDF and UEEF's apparent preference for energy weaponry over conventional solid ammo guns probably has a deeper reason than that.

Are you sure that Disc-blasters are not Lasers? I have seen many sources say that the Bioroid drum is a ion pulse weapon but for the later I have only seen it called a pulse beam.

The Robotech.com Infopedia officially describes both the "disc" and "drum" type weapons as pulsed ion beam cannons, a form of particle beam weaponry. The usage is inconsistent in the Infopedia, though the "Commander" and "soldier" entries use the full description, while the other two abbreviate it to just "pulse cannon" when explicitly referring to the same weapon.

If is a Calvary reference I personally feel it should not count as a reference for RT because they are two different universes even if they share the same machines to a degree.

As far as my research into the original Southern Cross has been able to uncover, there are OSM identifications for the Bioroid's weaponry. Therefore, it is almost certainly not from the original source material. However, your personal feelings about the applicability of the OSM are immaterial, as Harmony Gold continues to borrow from it heavily (increasingly often, these days), and treats is as an entirely valid source of information for Robotech in virtually all cases. Palladium got onto this bandwagon themselves in 2E, copying a lot of their information from the OSM.

[jaymz]

I don't have much to say about Trek, however in Star Wars Blasters are not just one type of beam weapon like you listed, there googoobs of different companies that make different style of Energy weapons so-many its just easier too label them blaster. Lasers, Turbo Lasers, Super Lasers, on the other hand are Lasers as it is stated in multiple tech manuals they are just more exotic than what we have, what we have is getting close though, we have made Laser bolts, we have made Laser move at 33 mph, we have made Lasers move at 300 times the speed of light, JFYI C is not a constant, we have manipulated Lasers to make 90 degree turns with magnetic fields.

No offense but yo may want to reread those tech sources. They are not lasers at all in the traditional sense as you seem to be inferring. As for the blasters and most lasers (including laser cannons turbo lasers etc) they are almost a combination beam weapon that uses particle/plasma and laser all in one which is why they do all sorts of damage types on impact. Ion weapons are almost an exotic lightning gun with the effects they cause and the super laser (again not actually a laser) is a very high energy solid beam weapon (as opposed to blasts).

[ShadowLogan]

Per the RPG, and Tommy's stance on the animated continuity, the political arena after the 1st Robotech War was mostly for show and had little or no actual power or influence to speak of. That would seem to make this rather unlikely.

I doubt that. Civilian politics maybe just a show, but even in the military there is going to be politics at play (Miastruff and Gloval, Edwards and Hunter/Hayes, Leonard/Emerson, Sent. OVA are notable examples of military politics in RT).

I doubt it, honestly... it may be man-portable in the sense that it can be carried by an unaugmented human, but firing that cannon would cause severe injury to the user. Guns with less than half the muzzle energy of that railgun (most notoriously the PTRS-41 14.5x114mm anti-tank rifle firing KKV rounds) had an unpleasant reputation for breaking the user's arm and/or shoulder, collarbone, etc. when fired, even when braced with an anchored bipod. A gun developing better than twice that muzzle energy as a rapid-fire weapon is going to send the operator to the medics unless it's on a stationary ground-mount or carried on a recoil-compensating powered suit.

You are aware of the Lahti L-39 used by the Finns in WW2 was a 20mm anti-tank rifle right (Japan in WW2 also had a 20mm anti-tank rifle). Then there is the more modern South African NTW-20 and American Anzio 20mm (today these would be more anti-material weapons than Anti-Tank). The Anzio has ~50kJ of kinetic energy (HRG-70 has 70kJ).

The HRG-70 has ~40% more Kinetic Energy than the Anzio, but the Momentum (recoil) created won't be 40% more (assuming mass of the round is the same between the two), but only ~18% when you do the math. If the railgun round is lighter than the Anzio, the recoil generated will actually go down even as the velocity increases.

The powered suit may not be the source of the recoil-compensation (or all of it), such a feature may be part of the weapon itself.

[Seto Kaiba]

I doubt that. Civilian politics maybe just a show, but even in the military there is going to be politics at play (Miastruff and Gloval, Edwards and Hunter/Hayes, Leonard/Emerson, Sent. OVA are notable examples of military politics in RT).

I do. We see in the series that the men in charge of the military basically have absolute authority. They don't really listen to the opinions of their subordinates if it differs from what they want to do. I mean, c'mon, the RPG asserts that Leonard's choices of equipment for his forces were motivated as much (or more) by his dislike of Admiral Hunter as they were by the technological necessities of his situation.

You are aware of the Lahti L-39 used by the Finns in WW2 was a 20mm anti-tank rifle right (Japan in WW2 also had a 20mm anti-tank rifle). Then there is the more modern South African NTW-20 and American Anzio 20mm (today these would be more anti-material weapons than Anti-Tank). The Anzio has ~50kJ of kinetic energy (HRG-70 has 70kJ).

Yes, I'm aware of them... and I'm also aware of how they're used. The Lahti L-39 and Anzio Ironworks 20mil both have nice features like muzzle brakes and recoil pads to reduce the recoil force imparted to the wielder. The HRG-70 railgun didn't get either... meaning that more of the recoil force is being imparted to the wielder, and without the aid of powered armor that's easily capable of causing some fairly nasty injuries even while firing prone with a bipod. That's easily in the realm of having the ability to break arms, shoulders, and collarbones, which are fairly incapacitating injuries as far as combat capability goes.

The powered suit may not be the source of the recoil-compensation (or all of it), such a feature may be part of the weapon itself.

Which is an interesting thing for you to say, as I posited in an earlier post that recoil compensation may have been one of the factors keeping railguns from widespread deployment, and you said no way.

[Sgt Anjay]

I doubt that. Civilian politics maybe just a show, but even in the military there is going to be politics at play (Miastruff and Gloval, Edwards and Hunter/Hayes, Leonard/Emerson, Sent. OVA are notable examples of military politics in RT).

I do. We see in the series that the men in charge of the military basically have absolute authority.

A civilian orders Gloval to take off, a civilian orders Leonard to mount an attack he didn't want.

From what I can see, in Robotech when UEG officials have put their feet down, the United Earth military has jumped.

[Seto Kaiba]

A civilian orders Gloval to take off, [...]

Before things got to pot and the military takes over.

a civilian orders Leonard to mount an attack he didn't want.

In "Star Dust", you mean? That's not actually true. The exact dialogue of the scene indicates that the final decision is, in point of fact, Leonard's. It might be more accurate to say that the civilian official tried to pressure Leonard into an attack he wasn't ready to commit to. A precise transcription of the scene is as follows: (Time index is approx. 07:44 to 08:00 in "Star Dust"*.)

Leonard: Your excellency, we must wait until we know more!
PM: The final decision is yours, but I hope you understand it's becoming increasingly difficult to defend your inaction.
Leonard: Yes, I understand that.
PM: Good. I expect you to attack as soon as possible, Commander. *disconnects*
Leonard: Your excellency, please *stops*

As you can see, we're explicitly told that the decision is Leonard's. He was not ordered to commit to an attack, though it might be accurate to say he was pressured into moving faster than he intended.

From what I can see, in Robotech when UEG officials have put their feet down, the United Earth military has jumped.

Less so than you'd think... the RPG and Tommy's stance on the matter do actually fit with what we're shown, even if their goal is to demonize the hell out of Leonard.


EDIT: * In the Remastered edition. I sourced it from the official YouTube channel out of sheer laziness, because I don't wanna dig my broadcast versions out of the basement.

[ShadowLogan]

We see in the series that the men in charge of the military basically have absolute authority. They don't really listen to the opinions of their subordinates if it differs from what they want to do. I mean, c'mon, the RPG asserts that Leonard's choices of equipment for his forces were motivated as much (or more) by his dislike of Admiral Hunter as they were by the technological necessities of his situation.

No we do see the officers playing politic, and also accused of its:
-Gloval's attempt to circumvent his superiors by finding someone in the civilian govt.
-Miastruff protesting Gloval's granting asylum w/o 1st consulting the UEDC, and Gloval/Lisa expecting trouble out of him
-Emerson keeping Zor Prime's existence a secret, even to Leonard
-Leonard is accused of playing politics with appointments (Brown makes a stink about it, two of Leo. Aides make similar statements in belief though are praising him).
-Edwards and the UEEF leadership
-Leonard's in the Sent. OVA press conference asserts he won't be able to defend Earth from a flock of pigions once the SDF-3 leaves
-Admiral Hayes pushing for the construction of the Grand Cannon when no one else did
-the UEEF effort to knock the Invid off Earth, seems partly political going by "Invasion" (Lancer and his squad mates having a discussion about reclaiming the Earth, a dead planet, going against the Gloval colonization doctrine).

Leonard's actions concerning the hardware his forces would use over the UEEF further emphasize that politics are in play on his end, which means politics could be at play in the RDF and UEEF, not just the ASC.

The Lahti L-39 and Anzio Ironworks 20mil both have nice features like muzzle brakes and recoil pads to reduce the recoil force imparted to the wielder. The HRG-70 railgun didn't get either... meaning that more of the recoil force is being imparted to the wielder, and without the aid of powered armor that's easily capable of causing some fairly nasty injuries even while firing prone with a bipod. That's easily in the realm of having the ability to break arms, shoulders, and collarbones, which are fairly incapacitating injuries as far as combat capability goes.

Isn't it possible the HRG-70 has recoil compensation features that aren't noted. Or part of attachments for use when fired w/o the mecha.

as I posited in an earlier post that recoil compensation may have been one of the factors keeping railguns from widespread deployment, and you said no way.

Not really as both statements are focused on different sized users.

I said earlier recoil compensation wouldn't be an issue for the larger mecha in the multi-ton range (which a Cyclone/SB or human definitely are not in):
-Cyclone is ~0.2tons
-ASC PA is ~0.6tons (that's the heavist PA, they are generally lighter)
-Silverback is ~1.2 or 1.4 tons depending on the model
-Logan is 6.5tons
-Golem is 7.0tons
-the rest of human robotic mecha are over 10tons (and the mecha I was looking at specifically for this upgrade are the VHT-1 at ~26, and the Monster at ~300, both on the heavier end of the available pool).

I also said the recoil could be dialed to fall w/n a range the mecha could handle. Which is certainly possible if they manipulate the mass of the round and/or the velocity it is fired at.

All we know about the HRG-70 is the kinetic energy a round has, we don't know the muzzle velocity (high speed means what really) or the mass of the bullet given the text in AoTSC and TSC RPG. And given the math involved, it is hard to say how much recoil/momentum is generated from the weapon given the formulas:

Momentum per side = mass * velocity
Kinetic Energy = mass * velocity^2 / 2

And as I said previously I did do the math and one can manipulate the mass and velocity assumptions for the HRG-70 to arrive at less momentum than the Anzio would impart (before recoil compensation).

[Jefffar]

In "Star Dust", you mean? That's not actually true. The exact dialogue of the scene indicates that the final decision is, in point of fact, Leonard's. It might be more accurate to say that the civilian official tried to pressure Leonard into an attack he wasn't ready to commit to. A precise transcription of the scene is as follows: (Time index is approx. 07:44 to 08:00 in "Star Dust"*.)

Leonard: Your excellency, we must wait until we know more!
PM: The final decision is yours, but I hope you understand it's becoming increasingly difficult to defend your inaction.
Leonard: Yes, I understand that.
PM: Good. I expect you to attack as soon as possible, Commander. *disconnects*
Leonard: Your excellency, please *stops*

As you can see, we're explicitly told that the decision is Leonard's. He was not ordered to commit to an attack, though it might be accurate to say he was pressured into moving faster than he intended.

I dunno, whenever my significant other tells me that it's my decision, what she really means is "You can do it my way or you can suffer the consequences."

[Sgt Anjay]

In "Star Dust", you mean? That's not actually true. The exact dialogue of the scene indicates that the final decision is, in point of fact, Leonard's. It might be more accurate to say that the civilian official tried to pressure Leonard into an attack he wasn't ready to commit to. A precise transcription of the scene is as follows: (Time index is approx. 07:44 to 08:00 in "Star Dust"*.)

Leonard: Your excellency, we must wait until we know more!
PM: The final decision is yours, but I hope you understand it's becoming increasingly difficult to defend your inaction.
Leonard: Yes, I understand that.
PM: Good. I expect you to attack as soon as possible, Commander. *disconnects*
Leonard: Your excellency, please *stops*

As you can see, we're explicitly told that the decision is Leonard's. He was not ordered to commit to an attack, though it might be accurate to say he was pressured into moving faster than he intended.

I dunno, whenever my significant other tells me that it's my decision, what she really means is "You can do it my way or you can suffer the consequences."

That's pretty much exactly what happened, Jefffar. He says the final decision belongs to Leonard...then goes on to say he expects the attack. Typical political speak. And let's not forget the attack does, in point of fact, happen. Leonard was ordered by the civilian, in typical political speak, and he obeyed.

The civilian whom he called Your Excellency, let's not forget that either. Does Leonard really seem the type to throw around that sort of honorific in a one-on-one conversation if he's Master Of The World?

So really, where is this evidence of the military riding roughshod over the civilian government?

[Seto Kaiba]

ShadowLogan, I'm kinda short of time so I'll get to your post tomorrow. I promise.

I dunno, whenever my significant other tells me that it's my decision, what she really means is "You can do it my way or you can suffer the consequences."

Yes, but as I've pointed out, both Tommy's stance and the RPG's stance on the matter are that the Prime Minister was more decorative than anything, and that Leonard and the other UEDF brass were the real authority on Earth.

That's pretty much exactly what happened, Jefffar. He says the final decision belongs to Leonard...then goes on to say he expects the attack. Typical political speak.

Bereft of the greater context of other material, I'd probably agree... but there is that other stuff there. One could also, in the context of that other material, interpret this as the political figurehead complaining that it's damaging his credibility as faux head-of-state by having to defend Leonard's inaction to an increasingly anxious populace who've only just started to pick up the pieces after the last cataclysmic alien war.

Does Leonard really seem the type to throw around that sort of honorific in a one-on-one conversation if he's Master Of The World?

Honestly? Yes. Leonard has a track record of being polite (though cold) and/or somewhat aloof unless someone directly below him (like Dana or Gen. Emerson) is giving him grief by contradicting him or otherwise being disruptive. Then he gets snippy and/or condescending.

[ShadowLogan]

@Seto.
No hurries.

I will add that "Star Dust" isn't the only time Leonard is subservient to Prime Minister Moran, we also see it in "Danger Zone".

Leonard also wasn't the head-honco others make him out to be either given the UEEF under Gen. Renheart (sp) in "Outsiders" basically says "you're on your own". We don't know why the Pioneer couldn't offer any more assistance (at least from the show dialogue).

"Outsiders"
Leonard: You mean you came here alone there's no more reinforcements coming from the SDF-3 sorry Major but we where hoping for more substantial assistance than that you must be kidding
Carpenter: I'm sorry sir but what it boils down to is that you can not expect any further help from the Pioneer Expidition at this time
Leonard: Huh
Carpenter: I'm afraid its true I'm simply relaying the orders from General Reinhardt cmdr of the mission when I say they can offer you nothing more… you see sir my attack wing was merly a last ditch effort to join forces with available fighters and knock the invaders from their orbit
Leonard: We all know how sucessful that little strategem was
Carpenter: No one is more aware of our failure than I cmdr however at this point in time General Reinhardt can offer you only his prayers and his firm conviction the fate of the people of Earth lies in good hands with you the valiant fighting forces under your cmd sir

[Sgt Anjay]

One could also, in the context of that other material, interpret this as the political figurehead complaining that it's damaging his credibility as faux head-of-state by having to defend Leonard's inaction to an increasingly anxious populace who've only just started to pick up the pieces after the last cataclysmic alien war.

One could try, but it doesn’t fit the context of the scene. The powerless flunky doesn’t expect obedience from the Master of the World, the Master of the World doesn’t plead (Leonard: “Your Excellency, please…” *stops*), and he certainly doesn’t get hung up on and then do just as he’s told…but that’s what happens in that scene.

Also, we have different definitions of “just started to pick up the pieces”, unless you’re referring to the in-universe political rhetoric, which may indeed have been at that level.

Does Leonard really seem the type to throw around that sort of honorific in a one-on-one conversation if he's Master Of The World?

Honestly? Yes. Leonard has a track record of being polite (though cold) and/or somewhat aloof unless someone directly below him (like Dana or Gen. Emerson) is giving him grief by contradicting him or otherwise being disruptive. Then he gets snippy and/or condescending.

The problem being, of course, that by the Master of the World scenario everyone is below Leonard; he doesn’t have to defer to anyone, and the “I expect the attack” line on the part of His Excellency would never have flown. That line would’ve been the cue for Leonard to blow up and put the flunky in his place, if that was what he was, but instead Leonard says please, gets hung up on, and then does just as he’s told even though it causes trouble within his own ranks as Emerson once again calls out the questionable nature of the strategy.

Come to think of it, I would nominally be inclined to view this scene as a peek behind the curtain of Leonard’s policy. The scene that follows is a standard Masters Saga “Leonard says attack, Emerson points out it’s a Bad Idea, Leonard says attack anyway” scene. Makes one wonder how many of those scenes followed those kinds of calls from the UEG that we’re not privy to.

At any rate, the UEG has no power, he definitely doesn’t have to explain himself, plead for them to understand, get hung up on, and then obey like a good subordinate. He would be the one with the veiled threat and the one hanging up.

I will add that "Star Dust" isn't the only time Leonard is subservient to Prime Minister Moran, we also see it in "Danger Zone".

And then there’s that.

So then it remains whether or not wants to integrate the series with other versions of the state of the word during Masters Saga.

Per the RPG at least, the UEG isn’t actually governing (The UEG is not United, nor comprises the Earth, nor a Government; discuss) but the Leadership Council representing its members does “grant legitimacy” to the forces/polities actually doing so. So perhaps whatever their day-to-day political situation, they can under the right circumstances withdraw that legitimacy and make it stick, which is enough power, or at least the right kind of power, to be a balance on the power of the head of the UEDF. That's somewhat of a compromise scenario, yes? What other possibilities are there?

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

For what its worth, Greg Finley flatly stated years ago in my interview that Leonard was supposed to be subservient to Moran. I asked him about Leonard and how Carl Macek viewed him and pointed to that scene.

Make of that what you will...

[Seto Kaiba]

For what its worth, Greg Finley flatly stated years ago in my interview that Leonard was supposed to be subservient to Moran. I asked him about Leonard and how Carl Macek viewed him and pointed to that scene.

Make of that what you will...

Well, yeah... but what was true under Macek's "regime" (for want of a better word) does not necessarily hold true now that Tommy Yune holds the authority to decide what's what. Most of Carl's take on things was kicked to the curb when Harmony Gold rebooted Robotech, and that seems to have been one such casualty. Tommy, who has little love for the Masters Saga, decided that Moran is a figurehead and Leonard is the real authority on Earth... because it makes it easier for him to further demonize Leonard (because being a mass-murdering, team-killing, seditious jerk wasn't enough... he also has to be a dictator and a bad boss too).

[Sgt Anjay]

Which makes the current regime's view incompatible with the tv series. And the novels, that I recall, though that one's hardly a surprise. Suppose I should be grateful its possible to comprimise the RPG in at all.

[RiverJack]

Both in real-world applications, and in science fiction in general, laser technology does not fall under the umbrella of particle beam technology for a variety of reasons. For the purposes of our discussion, and as a simple fact of the terminology's use in the real world, a laser is not a particle beam.

If your talking about a very general classification you can say Lasers are not a Particle beam but that's not exactly true. In science fiction when weapons, or any bit of technology really, is created its the author that determines how it and other things work in their universe.

I'm afraid you may have some very, VERY severe misconceptions about how a laser functions. Laser technology relies upon the optical amplification and collimation of light, the photons themselves are not accelerated electromagnetically. On many forms of laser technology, electromagnetic forces are used in the stimulated emission process, but that's all. They are not, in any way, shape, or form, relatives of railgun technology the way particle beam technology is. In a particle beam emitter, electromagnetic and/or electrostatic fields are used to accelerate particles to relativistic speeds, conveying large amounts of kinetic energy to the target. A railgun similarly uses electromagnetic force to provide acceleration.

I was talking about Particle beams, what I wrote before about Particle Beams would only apply to a Laser using a Relativistic Electron Beam as its Lasing Medium, and only if That beam is delivered in the way I was describing the other Particle Beams.

You may be being misled as to the efficacy of lasers by the high-powered ultra-short pulse research lasers... which have a high peak power, but are only capable of producing a beam for a nanosecond or so.

The reason I brought this example into this discussion is because if the other particle beams we can create now are more energy efficient/more powerful than Lasers we would be using them in this experiment. I brought up the example of the Navys Laser because it can be used in rapid firings as well as the Free-Electron Laser they have in development. They are wanting it to be capable of burning through 100 feet of steel per sec, to be honest what it is capable of now, Burning through 20 feet of steel per sec is impressive enough.

In terms of weapon applications, laser technology is less destructive by far than particle beam weaponry at similar power outputs because of the physics of both systems.

At similar power outputs excluding exotic Laser beams you are correct, what I am trying to point out though is that the way most Particle Beams function and RailGuns they have a limit of how much destructive force they can create. Unless these weapons are fired in broken areas of the universe they can never reach speeds of 669,600,000 miles per hour. Knowing this already limits the amount of energy these weapons can transfer to a target. With a Laser though when energy is not an issue they have no limit to how much they put out and they use.

The greater destructive potential of particle beam weaponry is the reason that practically all SF series treat the laser as the particle beam's inferior, low-power cousin... Robotech is no exception, nor are the three original shows it consists of.

This is mostly true for most of the weapons in Robotech, however there Mecha that do use very high powered Lasers as their main armament. Off the top of my head that do consider Lasers to ether be the ultimate weapon or one of the most powerful weapons are these here. Star Wars, M.I.B., HALO (not counting catalysts weapon), Alien Predator Prometheus universe, 40k Night Lords Lances are Lasers. Its all about perspective or personal bias how the creators of scifi multiverses want their lore and tech to work.

(Extra)Dimensional energy (Most Powerful)
Exotic Particle (incl. Antimatter)
Conventional Particle (incl. Charged)
Lasers (Least Powerful))

For Lasers it all about the amount of energy used in the Lasing process. Every color found in the light spectrum can be used to make a Laser. So when talking about wavelengths its better to think of it like a color theory wheel rather than a scale. Now when people talk about color and Lasers, and the darker the color of a Laser the more powerful it is, they are half right. In order to make a lets say a Ultra Violet Laser get moving 1,000 meters it requires more energy in the Lasing process than a Light Red or Pink Laser ect. However when the beam is emitted it takes 100% of the energy with it that was used during the Lasing process, so if you use that same amount of energy for a Pink Laser it will be just as powerful as the Ultra Violet.

If is a Calvary reference I personally feel it should not count as a reference for RT because they are two different universes even if they share the same machines to a degree.

As far as my research into the original Southern Cross has been able to uncover, there are OSM identifications for the Bioroid's weaponry. Therefore, it is almost certainly not from the original source material. However, your personal feelings about the applicability of the OSM are immaterial, as Harmony Gold continues to borrow from it heavily (increasingly often, these days), and treats is as an entirely valid source of information for Robotech in virtually all cases. Palladium got onto this bandwagon themselves in 2E, copying a lot of their information from the OSM.[/quote]


Yes but they have also added a lot of details that do not have anything to do with the original material they came from, like the VHT v1 having a Auto Cannon.

[RiverJack]

No offense but yo may want to reread those tech sources. They are not lasers at all in the traditional sense as you seem to be inferring.

Well I did say exotic Lasers, I also made a list of things we can do with Lasers now that they do in SW.

Star Wars the new essential guide to weapons and technology
page XI
Lasers and blasters are labeled as two different types of energy weapon .

Page 69 5th paragraph

Laser Cannons are similar to blasters in design.

Definition of similar
Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical.

Page 71 2nd paragraph

Unlike a standard laser cannon, a turbolaser employs a two-stage supercharging process. The first stage creates a typical laser beam, which is then guided through a stream of energized blaster gas to dramatically increase its potency.

This process is not unlike the process used to make a Free-Electron Laser. They are just using a much more powerful fictional medium in the Lasing process.

StarWars Complete Cross-Sections

page 11 first paragraph

Laser cannons and turbolasers fire invisible energy beams that travel at lightspeed. A glowing pulse traveling along the beam at less than lightspeed marks the energy bolt's path

Blasters and ion cannons are also classed as energy weapons--blaster fire powerful blots created by the excitation of high-energy gas while ion cannons emit burst of ionized energy.

the super laser (again not actually a laser) is a very high energy solid beam weapon (as opposed to blasts).

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia P-Z

S page 199

An energy beam capable of destroying entire planets. One of the most powerful, destructive weapons ever created, the superlasers used a huge fusion reactor core and turbine generators to create the intense bundle of energy it unleashed. These weapons were used aboard the Death Star space stations. The Superlaser was created by several tributary Laser pulses, produced by amplification crystals around the cannon's circular well. The pulses were fused over the central focuses lens, resulting in a devastating energy beam.

Just for the heck of it because it is a mystery too most SW fans and people against SW in vs debates I will post this bit of info that came out recently regarding the 2nd Death Star Super Laser MK II.

StarWars The essential Guide to Warfare

page 154 1st paragraph

The second Death Star was far larger than its predecessor nine hundred kilometers in diameter - to allow for a graduated series of three massive reactors instead of the first battle station's single reactor. With two reactors reserved for its superlaser, the second Death Star could fire every thee minutes.

In addition to this it was confirmed on starwars.com before Disney bought it and nearly erased the whole database, that the 2nd Death Star SuperLaser MK II was more powerful and could fire more often.

The laser was as powerful as the intensity of a stellar core and the energy delivered into a target was so great that it could cause the target's atoms to split into matter-antimatter pairs and annihilate themselves, creating hundreds of miniature space-time singularities while generating a powerful surge capable of rupturing the barrier between normal space and hyperspace.

This was also on sw.com before the information purge. What scary is that this weapon has to be the most powerful out off all scifi, what it describes here is that it is destroying the space time continuum. This link can help understand what a space-time singularity is.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-singularities/#SpaSin


ANYWAY back on topic. I will be gone for a long time and while I am gone I will figure out how powerful the Lasers armed versions of the Defender, REF Raidar X, Bioroid Interceptor, and MAC II are assuming they are not using more advanced versions of Lasers.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which makes the current regime's view incompatible with the tv series. And the novels, that I recall, though that one's hardly a surprise. Suppose I should be grateful its possible to comprimise the RPG in at all.

Not wishing to diminish the validity of your viewpoint, our discussion proved that it's possible to interpret that scene in more than one way. Our problem lies in that Tommy ascribes to, and officially supported, one particular interpretation over others which are, potentially, equally viable. Perfect consistency is a pipe dream in even the best-staffed shows, and RT does get quite a bit of internal inconsistency as a result of its rushed production in the 80s and all the bits that've been grafted onto the franchise later by other hands.

If your talking about a very general classification you can say Lasers are not a Particle beam but that's not exactly true.

Well, yes... if you want to split hairs all energy is the motion of particles, but in real-world technological terms lasers are a separate class from particle beam emitters because they use completely different methods to collimate (and, in the latter's case, accelerate) a particle stream.

The reason I brought this example into this discussion is because if the other particle beams we can create now are more energy efficient/more powerful than Lasers we would be using them in this experiment.

That is not a sound assumption, not by a long shot.

At similar power outputs excluding exotic Laser beams you are correct, what I am trying to point out though is that the way most Particle Beams function and RailGuns they have a limit of how much destructive force they can create.

There is also a limit to how much destructive force a laser can create... and lasers are more vulnerable to countermeasures and atmospheric phenomena than either particle beams or railguns because their principal damage vector is radiative heating of the target surface (rather than kinetic disruption of the target surface). Particle beams suffer less from blooming and are less vulnerable to beam disruption by ablation of the target surface.

This is mostly true for most of the weapons in Robotech, however there Mecha that do use very high powered Lasers as their main armament.

True enough, though in some cases this is the RPG misidentifying weapons or changing their identifications from what those weapons were in the Infopedia or the original source material. There are very few laser weapons in the Macross Saga, and most of those are sub-weapons. Lasers were even less common in the original Macross, where particle beam weapon systems and extradimensionl energy weapons were commonplace. The only craft that uses lasers as a main weapon in RT (canon) is the Logan, though the RPG (2E) misidentifies a number of weapons that are officially particle beam guns as laser weapons (e.g. many of the Cyclone armaments).

The only one of the original three shows in which laser weapons were commonplace on mecha was Southern Cross, in which the Southern Cross Army seems to have been lower on the tech scale for its mecha and weaponry even thought it's higher than MOSPEADA in terms of space travel tech. Even then, their lasers are "sci-fi lasers" that exhibit recoil and slow-moving laser bolts... rather an instantaneous beam.

Off the top of my head that do consider Lasers to ether be the ultimate weapon or one of the most powerful weapons are these here. Star Wars, M.I.B., HALO (not counting catalysts weapon), Alien Predator Prometheus universe, 40k Night Lords Lances are Lasers.

While I cannot speak to Star Wars or Men in Black, or the expanded universe material from the joint Alien universe, Halo and Warhammer 40,000 don't belong on that list.

Earth's military in Halo uses lasers because they can't independently produce the kind of plasma weaponry that the Covenant use (let alone Forerunner hardlight weapons). Warhammer 40,000's setting treats laser weaponry as an inferior choice to almost everything except standard modern-technology slugthrowers. Laser weapons are so prolific due mainly to the ease of manufacture and low cost, and only really become viable anti-armor weapons in terawatt scale (as you'd find on Titan engines or superheavy titan-hunter tanks) and the petawatt scale emplacements on starships. Even then, they're usually regarded as being a low-power alternative to more potent conventional cannons, or energy weapon options like plasma, melta, or conversion beamer technology (or, during the heresy era, Volkite weapons and railguns). In infantry and light armor terms, lasers are only favored because they're very durable, cheap, and their power requirements are low enough that an infantryman with a lasgun can carry thousands of shots worth of ammo and light tanks can drive them off their drive turbines without compromising performance.

Its all about perspective or personal bias how the creators of scifi multiverses want their lore and tech to work.

To a certain extent... but the pattern is much more consistent than you'd think.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well I did say exotic Lasers, I also made a list of things we can do with Lasers now that they do in SW. [...]

Using the resources available to me, I've been looking into this... and it seems that most, if not all, of the so-called "laser" weapons in Star Wars are actually particle or plasma weapons of some description or another. The Death Star "super laser", for instance, is actually an exotic particle beam weapon... the beam itself is described as exotic matter beam which was focused by magnetic lenses and coils. That rather rules it out as an actual laser. (From the description of the super laser in the Del Ray novel Death Star.)

This process is not unlike the process used to make a Free-Electron Laser. They are just using a much more powerful fictional medium in the Lasing process.

Actually, what that description makes the turbolaser is just an ordinary, everyday gas laser on a large scale... a two-stage model using the stimulated emission in the gain medium for optical amplification.

[Jefffar]

And what, if anything do Star Wars weaponry have to do with Robotech?

Please stay somewhere in the vicinity of the topic please.

[Seto Kaiba]

And what, if anything do Star Wars weaponry have to do with Robotech?

RiverJack cited that, and several other titles, in his argument that the UEEF was wasting its time adopting railguns as weapons for its mechanized forces in the 2040s because (in his opinion) lasers were far and away the superior weapon. The replies directed to him by myself and jaymz, WRT Star Wars weapons tech, were identifying and refuting several false parallels and failures of research in his assertions... and the resulting misconceptions he has about laser weaponry vs. Robotech's more ubiquitous particle beam weaponry and conventional options like railguns, defending potential practical reasons for the UEEF's return to using projectile weapons.

(You gotta scroll way up to get to the genesis of this branch of the discussion, but it's still on this page, at least.)

[ArmySGT.]

I was kinda hoping someone had so more ideas for updating 1st RW Mecha for the Sentinels or Shadow Chronicles campaign settings......

[Seto Kaiba]

I was kinda hoping someone had so more ideas for updating 1st RW Mecha for the Sentinels or Shadow Chronicles campaign settings......

Eh... within the context of Robotech itself and/or the RPG, there's not really a ton of need to update the mecha of the 1st Robotech War for later sagas. RAW, most of them stand up pretty well even in later sagas, and technology in the series doesn't advance all that fast so the number of upgrades would be pretty minimal. Minor range enhancements and such, but that's about it. I've already shared a few of the ideas I've applied in my own games for destroid upgrades.

Short of "just give the VF-1 a beam rifle already" I'm kinda coming up dry... and I personally wouldn't do that, because that would freaking negate the Alpha's reason for being.

On an upgraded equipment note, something I've alluded to before is adapting the VF-1's UUM-7 micro-missile packs (MLOPs, from the RPG's listing... which don't actually exist in RT at all, which were included in the game because they copied specs from Macross sites) to take the Alpha's smaller micro-missiles. They're similar in diameter, but the VF-1's micro-missile style is much longer with a more agile rocket motor, so you could fit about three times as many Alpha missiles in there... for around 180 micro-missiles on a VF-1. (Not the most missiles packed onto a Macross VF design, but it's up there)

[jaymz]

I've updated all the Rudd mecha to ref spec just haven't posted them online yet

[Sgt Anjay]

Which makes the current regime's view incompatible with the tv series. And the novels, that I recall, though that one's hardly a surprise. Suppose I should be grateful its possible to comprimise the RPG in at all.

Not wishing to diminish the validity of your viewpoint, our discussion proved that it's possible to interpret that scene in more than one way.

I haven't seen an interpretation that doesn't breaking the context of the scene, the intent of the tv series writers, and another scene wherein Leonard is subservient to Moran, by requiring the person pleading and being hung up on to actually be in charge.

Our problem lies in that Tommy ascribes to, and officially supported, one particular interpretation over others which are, potentially, equally viable.

Tommy's view is a retcon, not an interpretation. And it isn't a problem, because nothing stops anyone from going with the tv series version over the current version.

Perfect consistency is a pipe dream in even the best-staffed shows, and RT does get quite a bit of internal inconsistency

Except, of course, that there is nothing inconsistent in Leonard's portrayal as subservient to the UEG official. While the series as a whole may not be, that particular role is perfectly consistent.

I was kinda hoping someone had so more ideas for updating 1st RW Mecha for the Sentinels or Shadow Chronicles campaign setting

Add hovertech. It's ubiquitous by the time of Masters Saga.

[glitterboy2098]

personally, i'd just use them 'as is', and start mixing in Alpha's, Conbats, and such. as you can see with the mecha compliment of my UES Freedom GSV..

though i have ideas for adapting the old REF destroids to be UEEF '2nd generation' systems.. stuff that was developed to replace the 1st generation destroids in UEEF service. the stuff that the Condor Battloid wound up serving alongside. (one design element i'm using is that each of the 2nd gen destroids is about the same size as the 1st gen, but use protoculture reactors and flight ability similar to the condor. this cuts into their weaponry space, but makes them way more mobile than the 1st generation.)

[Seto Kaiba]

I haven't seen an interpretation that doesn't breaking the context of the scene, [...]

I'm not saying Tommy's official interpretation is perfect, by any means, but there is more than one way to interpret what we see there. Tommy just naturally went with one that puts Leonard in an unfavorable light.

(Hey, wait... did we switch character sheets here or something?)

I was kinda hoping someone had so more ideas for updating 1st RW Mecha for the Sentinels or Shadow Chronicles campaign settings......

After some thought, one could potentially put forth the VF-1R as being the official answer to your request... a postwar development to that model to give it a bit more survivability. If you aren't averse to OSM, there are several later VF-1 types (incl. Macross's own VF-1R) that might fit the bill.

Maybe convert some older Lancer II fighters to take the Alpha's rotary beam gun in place of their older laser cannons?

[ShadowLogan]

I was kinda hoping someone had so more ideas for updating 1st RW Mecha for the Sentinels or Shadow Chronicles campaign settings......

I don't think there is much reason to do this. Especially since their roles can be handled more effectively by conventional platforms as oppossed to mecha in many cases (and the Gladiator/Spartan duties are picked up by the various ASC Battloids). And space will be at premium on ships, so smaller more effective platforms will be more attractive.

You should really look at the Franken-mecha thread, some of the mecha in there probably can be adapated for what you are looking for. Though if you want ideas on what could be done in general...

You could modernize the armor for increased protection (either just Laser Resistant properties and/or add additional protection).

Main weapons really don't see much of a need for, leaving behind the secondary weapons in the TZ-IV cluster or head guns for updates. The Monster/MAC-2 is the only exception with main weapons as it could benifit from a switch over to 105mm cannons so it can carry more ammo and have longer life barrels (or some other sized conventional cannon that is more convienient like 120mm). The smaller size would also allow it to mount more guns (x3-4). You could replace individiual elements of the TZ-IV in an update or just replace them with Logan Gunpods (adapated for use as internal weapons). Head lasers and machineguns, could be updated. The biggest worry with the energy weapon updates is if the mecha's power plant can handle it or if it will have to use a storage medium.

All the Destroids could do with a mobility enhancement package, could borrow the Battloid Jump Pack from TRM SB for most of them (might be pushing the upper weight limits on the system). 1E's space packs could also be reworked for atmospheric duties.

Alternative is some type of bolt-on systems like the VF-1 systems to expand the armor and weapons w/o effecting the existing setup:
-Dorsal Boosters from the FAST Pack/Super VF-1 could also work for the Destroids
-arm stations for all of them (Super or Armored VF-1 based), though each will be customized
-lower leg stations like the Super or Armored VF-1, less customization needed
-hip launchers (Armored VF-1) on all but the Tomahawk/Excal.
-Chest Launchers (Armored VF-1) only really work for those w/o chest weapons
-rail stations for mounting guns or missiles could be added on the Spartan/Gladiator below the shoulder missile launchers
-rail stations for mounting guns or missiles could also go onto the various destroid arms
-installation of Tomahawk/Excal. over-sholder missile launcher(s) to other Destroids to similar locales

[Sgt Anjay]

I haven't seen an interpretation that doesn't breaking the context of the scene, [...]

I'm not saying Tommy's official interpretation is perfect, by any means, but there is more than one way to interpret what we see there. Tommy just naturally went with one that puts Leonard in an unfavorable light.

(Hey, wait... did we switch character sheets here or something?)

Not especially. There is more than one way to view what's going on in that scene. For example, rather than a random one-off scene, I view it as a peek behind the curtain to show us an event that happens more than once, for the purpose of helping to explain, at least somewhat, why Leonard is and does what Leonard is and does: the UEG kept turning the screws on 'im. And if one was in a generous mood, it may also explain why he was adamantly anti-negotiation: he couldn’t even if he had wanted to because the UEG wouldn’t have let him.

Not everyone would view the scene that way, which is fine; my viewpoint is just that, my viewpoint. But when Leonard is pleading with, getting hung up on, then obeying the official he had already been shown deferring to in an earlier episode, it doesn’t follow he is the Tyrannical Master of the World.

[ArmySGT.]

An idea......... Since AIs were so heavily discussed


Why not AI conversions of 1st RW Radair X and Spartan units.... These are primarily defensive units used as supplementary point defense on starships and and the same for bases.

24/7 guard. As a constant roving patrol around a remote base, keeps bases defenses from being pinpointed and suppressed. Deploy more at the time of the attack.

Reduces man power requirements, improves defenses on starships and planet side bases. Reinforces a beach head assault of covers the retreat of manned units. Force multiplier.

What say you?

[Seto Kaiba]

Not especially. There is more than one way to view what's going on in that scene. For example, rather than a random one-off scene, I view it as a peek behind the curtain to show us an event that happens more than once, for the purpose of helping to explain, at least somewhat, why Leonard is and does what Leonard is and does: [...]

That's an interesting take on it, in terms of how it attempts to exonerate Leonard of the usual accusations laid at his door of rabid xenophobia, megalomania, etc. Tommy, of course, went for an alternative view that jives with what he was doing with Leonard's character in newer material... that Leonard is the actual decision-maker with the authority to decide on his course of action, and the Prime Minister is there to publicly rubber-stamp the UEDF top brass's decisions and interact with the civilian populace so they don't have to. Viewed from that perspective, the Prime Minister's behavior could be taken to be the irritation of the PR guy stuck defending a decision he has no power to influence.

(Unfortunately, Tommy's got the power to enforce his view on material on a going-forward basis, so "tyrannical boss E.A. Leonard, dictator of Earth" is officially endorsed by the new comics and the RPG. I'm not saying I agree with it, just that that's what he put down, making it official.)

Why not AI conversions of 1st RW Radair X and Spartan units.... These are primarily defensive units used as supplementary point defense on starships and and the same for bases.

I dunno if that'd be viable... the one time we see a land-based AI, it seems to not be the sharpest tool in the shed. They didn't develop fully autonomous AI until 2043-2044, when it became available on the Shadow Drone. If they were a set of fixed emplacements, rather than walking artillery pieces, maybe... but I don't think it'd be viable if the Garm from a decade later can't avoid being knocked over by a hoverbike.

[ArmySGT.]

Why not AI conversions of 1st RW Radair X and Spartan units.... These are primarily defensive units used as supplementary point defense on starships and and the same for bases.

I dunno if that'd be viable... the one time we see a land-based AI, it seems to not be the sharpest tool in the shed. They didn't develop fully autonomous AI until 2043-2044, when it became available on the Shadow Drone. If they were a set of fixed emplacements, rather than walking artillery pieces, maybe... but I don't think it'd be viable if the Garm from a decade later can't avoid being knocked over by a hoverbike.

Which can be explained as
A: it's the AotSC. Which does mecha, starships, and all else........ badly.
B: The RDF/REF may well have had a lock on the best of the best in AI software engineers.
C: Being distrustful and the non-cooperation, non-sharing attitude with the B team stay behinds the REF may have labeled the AI software above top secret not to be disseminated. Thusly, the AotSC had to go it alone on the GMP failbot.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which can be explained as
A: it's the AotSC. Which does mecha, starships, and all else........ badly.

Nope, the bit about fully autonomous AI only becoming available when the Shadow Drone was introduced came from RT.com's Infopedia and, IIRC, predates the Shadow Chronicles material. AotSC is pretty awful, as anime art books go, but I must admit that none of RT's art books really pass muster there.

Oh, damn... I just realized you've been writing AotSC but meant ASC (AotSC = Art of the Shadow Chronicles, the art book for RTSC, ASC is the common abbreviation for Army of the Southern Cross). That's true too, though. They tend to have equipment with... issues.

B: The RDF/REF may well have had a lock on the best of the best in AI software engineers.

With there being only a handful of "robotechnologists" in the entire human population, apparently consisting entirely of Lang and his close colleagues Cochrane, Zand, and Nichols, that seems like a fairly safe bet. Of the four, only Zand and Lang are depicted with expertise in AI... Lang for his work on Janice and (presumably) the Shadow Drone, and Zand for his studies of the Invid "brain" living computer systems.

C: Being distrustful and the non-cooperation, non-sharing attitude with the B team stay behinds the REF may have labeled the AI software above top secret not to be disseminated. Thusly, the AotSC had to go it alone on the GMP failbot.

I dunno, the UEDF had already had experience with the Ghost... and the Alpha Drone doesn't seem to be any improvement on that, so the UEEF's advances in AI may just be down to them not getting wiped out, and taking most of the supergenius scientists with 'em.

[Sgt Anjay]

Not especially. There is more than one way to view what's going on in that scene. For example, rather than a random one-off scene, I view it as a peek behind the curtain to show us an event that happens more than once, for the purpose of helping to explain, at least somewhat, why Leonard is and does what Leonard is and does: [...]

That's an interesting take on it, in terms of how it attempts to exonerate Leonard of the usual accusations laid at his door of rabid xenophobia, megalomania, etc.

Always been of the opinion the accusations are overblown, as supporting footage for the more extreme of those is...let's say sparse. Not that I'd clear him of everything, I do believe the man was written with glaring character flaws, but I've never seen the point of turning him into General Stalinazi: Super-Tyrant of the Universe.

Tommy, of course, went for an alternative view that jives with what he was doing with Leonard's character in newer material... that Leonard is the actual decision-maker with the authority to decide on his course of action, and the Prime Minister is there to publicly rubber-stamp the UEDF top brass's decisions and interact with the civilian populace so they don't have to.

Which makes Tommy's version of Robotech incompatible with the scene wherein we see the UEG official tell Leonard he expects him to obey, then hangs up on Leonard while the poor general is saying "Your Excellency, please!", followed by scenes of Leonard obeying His Excellency.

(Unfortunately, Tommy's got the power to enforce his view on material on a going-forward basis, so "tyrannical boss E.A. Leonard, dictator of Earth" is officially endorsed by the new comics and the RPG. I'm not saying I agree with it, just that that's what he put down, making it official.)

While it may be the official version of Leonard in the current version of Robotech, that does not mean it is supported by the tv series. Course, I've already drummed up a compromise position between what's in the RPG's text and what we see in the tv series, should I have need of it, so that aspect doesn't worry me overmuch.

[ShadowLogan]

Why not AI conversions of 1st RW Radair X and Spartan units.... These are primarily defensive units used as supplementary point defense on starships and and the same for bases.

You mean like TRACT units from 1E? Or mecha with the GMP 'bot's AI?

I dunno if that'd be viable... the one time we see a land-based AI, it seems to not be the sharpest tool in the shed. They didn't develop fully autonomous AI until 2043-2044, when it became available on the Shadow Drone. If they were a set of fixed emplacements, rather than walking artillery pieces, maybe... but I don't think it'd be viable if the Garm from a decade later can't avoid being knocked over by a hoverbike.

But how much of that viability is based on the "Police" role it was shown in (Ep38)? The 'bot does appear in other episodes (IINM "Half-Moon" and one of the last 3 episodes, want to say "Invid Connection" or "Final Nightmare") but performance isn't shown in those later incidents.

[Seto Kaiba]

Always been of the opinion the accusations are overblown, as supporting footage for the more extreme of those is...let's say sparse. Not that I'd clear him of everything, I do believe the man was written with glaring character flaws, but I've never seen the point of turning him into General Stalinazi: Super-Tyrant of the Universe.

Well, yeah... but that's just Tommy using his authority to endorse the viewpoint of the vocal majority, that the entire ASC was an inept outfit let by a bad boss.

But how much of that viability is based on the "Police" role it was shown in (Ep38)? The 'bot does appear in other episodes (IINM "Half-Moon" and one of the last 3 episodes, want to say "Invid Connection" or "Final Nightmare") but performance isn't shown in those later incidents.

It's the only time we ever see one in any position to react to anything, and we know that the more advanced branch of the service didn't have an autonomous AI until decades later.

[Sgt Anjay]

Well, yeah... but that's just Tommy using his authority to endorse the viewpoint of the vocal majority, that the entire ASC was an inept outfit let by a bad boss.

Hello, flamebait. Not touching that.

But how much of that viability is based on the "Police" role it was shown in (Ep38)? The 'bot does appear in other episodes (IINM "Half-Moon" and one of the last 3 episodes, want to say "Invid Connection" or "Final Nightmare") but performance isn't shown in those later incidents.

Uh, I didn't write that, that was Shadowlogan.

It's the only time we ever see one in any position to react to anything, and we know that the more advanced branch of the service didn't have an autonomous AI until decades later.

Well, first of all, Shadowlogan has a point. There's AI, and then there's AI. Combat requires processing power that is far from minuscule, but there's a significant quantitative difference between "is that an enemy? Should I engage?" and "Who is that specific human being, what behaviors are they engaging in, are those behaviors criminal in nature, which crimes are those, what do all of the above mean for how the situation should be approached", and so forth. A combat AI is a significant feat, but a law enforcement AI? That's...massive and on a whole other level.

Second of all, fitting the massive needs a law enforcement AI would require into something the size of a Golem is a far cry from fitting what you need for what amounts to an automated turret that also walks into something as huge as a Macross Saga destroid.

Third of all...the Golem certainly can't be said to have the fastest reflexes ever, but let's be serious, what processing algorithm arrives at the conclusion that Dana is going to charge the GMP hovertruck with a mini-mecha on the back and jump the damn thing with her hovercycle?! The human being at the hovertruck's wheel didn't react notably better than the Golem.

And fourth...let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill. The Golem's no speed-demon or genius, but the dialog in that scene was intentionally comedic.