Yggdrasil Gift of Magic

[cornholioprime]

So basically the Gift of Magic from Yggdrasil turns you into a mystic (gain all temporal magic and necro-magic spells, plus you learn all common spell magic up to your current level). My question is, since it gives you a complete understanding of magic are you capable of learning spells at any time through conventional means? Or is it, you only learn them through level gaining? It basically states the later, but if you have a complete understanding of magic, why can't you learn spells on your own? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Just because I somehow implant within you the knowledge of how to fly an aircraft or pilot a tank, that doesn't automatically, or necessarily, give you knowledge regarding how to repair either vehicle, or even fabricate spare parts. Logically, then, the same would be true of bestowed magic knowledge.

ON THE OTHER HAND.......there's absolutely nothing that I can think of in the wording of that Gift from Yggdrasil that prohibits you from having such knowledge imparted to you.

In fact, I personally lean towards saying "yes the Tree DOES give the ability to you" when I re-read the section labeled #1 under the list of bestowed powers. The phrase "...a complete understanding of how magic works...." seals the deal in the character's favor as far as I'm concerned, but one has to accept that those words there can truly and honestly be interpreted either way, they have that much 'wiggle room' in them.


GM's call, I say.

[cornholioprime]

Styg: "So basically the Gift of Magic from Yggdrasil turns you into a mystic (gain all temporal magic and necro-magic spells, plus you learn all common spell magic up to your current level). My question is, since it gives you a complete understanding of magic are you capable of learning spells at any time through conventional means? Or is it, you only learn them through level gaining? It basically states the later, but if you have a complete understanding of magic, why can't you learn spells on your own? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated."

Just because I somehow implant within you the knowledge of how to fly an aircraft or pilot a tank, that doesn't automatically, or necessarily, give you knowledge regarding how to repair either vehicle, or even fabricate spare parts. Logically, then, the same would be true of bestowed magic knowledge.

Huh? How is your example even related to the question?

Your question is unclear to me, because in my opinion, the analogy holds up.

Just because you're given complete knowledge regarding how to drive that car or fly that aircraft -or ANY aircraft or vehicle, for that matter -that doesn't necessarily mean that you're also, say, a metallurgist, or an engineer, or an automotive computer programmer, or a chemist.

And just as it is that neither War of the Four Horseman, nor Rurga of the Northern Pantheon, nor any other being with such a power, necessarily knows how to forge Rune Weapons or engineer new weapons systems from scratch just because they have the supernatural ability to instantly master a weapon right on the spot, so too can we conclude that just because Odin knows all spells of every level, this doesn't automatically or necessarily translate into him also being able to create new magic.

Depending upon how the individual GM interprets the abilities imparted by Yggdrasil, due to the 'wiggle room' present in the wording of the Tree's granted powers, a character who survives the ordeal and gains the powers could be either one of the Megaverse's greatest alchemists.....or, essentially, one of the Megaverse's greatest Mystics.

[cornholioprime]

So basically the Gift of Magic from Yggdrasil turns you into a mystic (gain all temporal magic and necro-magic spells, plus you learn all common spell magic up to your current level). My question is, since it gives you a complete understanding of magic are you capable of learning spells at any time through conventional means? Or is it, you only learn them through level gaining? It basically states the later, but if you have a complete understanding of magic, why can't you learn spells on your own? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

To answer your question another way, you ALREADY know all that magic, no leveling up required.

I was in error, Stygxenev -I should have remembered that you only get the new magic for the corresponding level that you achieve.

My apologies if you read this before you had the chance to read it.

And for the record, the way that I read those passages, a character that gains this gift knows every spell in every book that Palladium ever publishes -past, present, or future.

But I still stand by this statement, only it should be 'altered' to recognize my error as stated above.

As I read the text, you get every spell of that level, no matter when the Palladium book in question came out.

[cornholioprime]

Just because you're given complete knowledge regarding how to drive that car or fly that aircraft -or ANY aircraft or vehicle, for that matter -that doesn't necessarily mean that you're also, say, a metallurgist, or an engineer, or an automotive computer programmer, or a chemist.

The Gift gives "complete knowledge of magic". In your example, you keep saying "drive a car". If someone gave you "complete knowledge of cars", it would be more than just how to drive a car.
In your example, you're singling out one aspect. You're not talking about "complete knowledge", you're talking about one thing alone. That's a false analogy.

The wording of the granted abilities doesn't say that you'll necessarily know absolutely everything about magic; the exact words used are "a complete understanding," not "magical omniscience."

Going back to the analogy, I can give you "a complete understanding " about how all cars and all vehicles you could ever encounter work, and you could pilot them all instantly and with ease -but, again, that doesn't necessarily make you a metallurgist, or an engineer, or a computer programmer, or master of any other field of study that goes into the creation of a new vehicle or car.

Since I think that the wording used can be potentially interpreted either way, I stand by my belief that it is the GM's call -assuming for the sake of argument that said GM wants to go by-the-book and not house-rule his own ideas into the mix.

And just as it is that neither War of the Four Horseman, nor Rurga of the Northern Pantheon, nor any other being with such a power, necessarily knows how to forge Rune Weapons or engineer new weapons systems from scratch just because they have the supernatural ability to instantly master a weapon right on the spot, so too can we conclude that just because Odin knows all spells of every level, this doesn't automatically or necessarily translate into him also being able to create new magic.

You are rebutting something I never said, which makes your argument here a Straw Man Fallacy.

No, I am logically extending my original analogy for clarification.

[cornholioprime]

Sorry-

I'm assuming this is in PFRPG; can someone kindly direct me in the right direction (page number and book) where this is described. I would like to read it for myself, before commenting and I don't recall where it is; or it I even have this book as this doesn't spark a memory.

The relevant paragraphs are in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse, pages 161 and 162.


Cornholio_Prime -ALWAYS thought that it was the height of stupidity that a person had a seemingly better chance of surviving being impaled on Yggdrasil, than surviving being turned into a Soulless Xombie by Nxla

[Jefffar]

Okay, so this thread got reported for getting jacked off topic.

Here is what I found.

OP: Asks Question
P1: Says probably yes, GM's call
P2: Says they agree with P1's conclusion, but find their choice of analogies to be an inappropriate way to arrive at such
P1: Explains their thoughts further and engages in some reflection on their answer to the OP's question
P2: Discusses P1's explanation a bit further, points out a potential logical fallacy - but is still agreeing with P1's conclusion
P1: Explains some more, clarifies the potential fallacy
P3: Enters and wishing to know more before commenting, asks to be directed to the appropriate reference materials, is so by P1 ad proceeds to chime in with their answer to the OP - which pretty much agrees with P1 and P2's answers.
P2: Continues to discuss P1's answer with him.
P3: Points out that P2 discussing P1's answer is not on topic
P2: Points out that discussing P1's answer to the OP's question is a part of discussing the original topic and encourages P1 to continue to discuss same.
P3: Disagrees, asks to have more detail on how discussing P1's answer to the OP is on topic
P2: Becomes aggravated with P3, puts on ignore list
P3: Justifies their question, re-asks, points out potential hypocrisy on P2's part.

So confronted with the above, where does the off topic discussion begin?

Well, if we assume that discussing the answer to the question instead of just answering the question, we see P2 going off topic around about the third post in. But, if a question is posed, the answer to that question certainly is a part of the topic. Explaining, expanding and refining that answer goes directly to what the OP wants to know.

Instead, when said thread wanders over into focusing on board etiquette and what is and isn't on topic (including, regrettably, this post), it veers away from any discussion of Yggdrasil, the Gift of Magic, or the actual way that it works.

That being said, an occasional off topic post does not a thread break. The bigger issue is when we have threads being derailed by or completely overtaken with off topic posts and the tread no longer being about what it is actually about.

Please folks, if you believe a thread has been trolled off the rails by someone, please report it, detail your reasons why and then leave it alone. The moderation staff may or may not agree with you, but either way it works out better than further derailing the thread yourself by trying to force things to happen.

[Killer Cyborg]

ALWAYS thought that it was the height of stupidity that a person had a seemingly better chance of surviving being impaled on Yggdrasil, than surviving being turned into a Soulless Xombie by Nxla

Huh.
I'd expect that having your soul ripped from you would be more fatal than being stabbed.

[cornholioprime]

The wording of the granted abilities doesn't say that you'll necessarily know absolutely everything about magic; the exact words used are "a complete understanding," not "magical omniscience."

How would you characterize the difference in the two?

To continue the analogy:

The guy having "a complete understanding" of how cars/vehicles work, and who has been granted the ability to pilot anything and everything he sees instantly might know which fuel runs which vehicles, and how far each vehicle and vehicle type can be pushed, and the maximum range of each vehicle, and the power/thrust/torque of each and every vehicle he ever pilots, and every possible crazy maneuver anyone could ever pull off......


....but that STILL doesn't necessarily mean that Captain Pilot will necessarily know how to build those vehicles from the ground up.

[Nekira Sudacne]

just because something uses PPE dosn't make it magic.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I know but why is the "gift" always the same? Keep the Leyline Walker abilities lose the spells bestow Body Hardening Powers and Zenjukori(not sure if i spelled that correctly)Powers instead. A very interesting twist on an old Power and explains Evil kung Fu masters.

because evil people can't learn Kung-fu?

I guess I just don't see how it would work. sure, it uses PPE, but it gives you knowlage, not physical training which is explicitly required for body hardening exersises.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It is a gift from the world tree, an omnipotent force of nature. Since it uses ppe BH&Z powers would/could/should be allowed as a variant of the trees gift. As for the specific body hardening training having millions of years of magical power flow through your body couldn't transform it?

The tree is hardly omnipotent, merely very powerful. The effects are fairly Specific. however, just because they use PPE, dosn't mean magic knowlage helps because it's not magic, because PPE covers more than just magic. Your streaching the stated and very specific powers far beyond what the system actually supports. if you want to do it ANYWAY because you think it's cool, that's up to you as GM, but that dosn't mean it makes sense in the context of how the tree and the powers are presented.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

The Yggdrasil exists due to the faith and invested PPE of countless worshipers over thousands of years. Their beliefs shaped its form and role in the Norse pantheon & cosmology, and most importantly for this discussion, influenced the type of knowledge bestowed by the "gift".

If there had been a sect of Norse followers in the pantheon's early days who practiced Lemurian-style biomancy, those believers might have influenced the tree to grant knowledge of that school of magic, too. The same applies for Asian chi magic, mystic martial art powers, demon magic, and so on. There wasn't, though, so...

[Drakenred®™©]

you gain them only as you level. bascialy its one of thoes "trad-offs in the old system, in exchange for putting off getting all kinds of Spells till the end you were garentied to get a bucket full of spells up front.

Incidentaly this ability also ORIGINALY aplied to some Dragon species,(pre RIFTS when they just had Palladium, Heroes unlimited/Turtles/Ninjas and superspies Recon Mechanoids and Robotec(and no dragons in the last three even ) but that was before you could become a Magic useing Hatchling Dragon in Rifts and HU.

Back then however it felt more like a fix the the problem of how powerfull a given dragon actualy is and what they can do.

to be fair its also a bit of a cludge fix to a system where you have arbitrary levels of power.

[13eowulf]

I have a follow-up question regarding the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic:
At the time it was printed the only schools of magic available in Rifts were:
-'Invocations' aka Spell Magic
-Tattoo Magic
-Bio-Wizardy
-Stone Magic
-Temporal Magic
-Herb Magic
-Necromancy
-Biomancy
-Elemental/Warlock
And it is entirely possible that Biomancy was not in print when the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic was written.
Of those schools, Tattoo Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Stone Magic, and Herb Magic are schools of magic that do not have spells, but use magic in other ways.
Elemental/Warlock magic (at that time) was exclusive to Warlocks. Biomancy is similarly exclusively restrictive.
While Temporal Magic and Necromancy Magic are restrictive, they are learnable by other classes.

So at the time the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic saw print it granted magic from every non-exclusive category of spell magic that existed at the time (in Rifts).

My question is this: Given the above information, would you update the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic to include other non-exclusive schools of magic that have come out subsequent to the printing of CB2?
For example: Blue Flame Magic, Combat Magic, or Space Magic?

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

My question is this: Given the above information, would you update the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic to include other non-exclusive schools of magic that have come out subsequent to the printing of CB2?
For example: Blue Flame Magic, Combat Magic, or Space Magic?

No.

[Glistam]

My question is this: Given the above information, would you update the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic to include other non-exclusive schools of magic that have come out subsequent to the printing of CB2?
For example: Blue Flame Magic, Combat Magic, or Space Magic?

Yes.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have a follow-up question regarding the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic:
At the time it was printed the only schools of magic available in Rifts were:
-'Invocations' aka Spell Magic
-Tattoo Magic
-Bio-Wizardy
-Stone Magic
-Temporal Magic
-Herb Magic
-Necromancy
-Biomancy
-Elemental/Warlock
And it is entirely possible that Biomancy was not in print when the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic was written.
Of those schools, Tattoo Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Stone Magic, and Herb Magic are schools of magic that do not have spells, but use magic in other ways.
Elemental/Warlock magic (at that time) was exclusive to Warlocks. Biomancy is similarly exclusively restrictive.
While Temporal Magic and Necromancy Magic are restrictive, they are learnable by other classes.

So at the time the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic saw print it granted magic from every non-exclusive category of spell magic that existed at the time (in Rifts).

My question is this: Given the above information, would you update the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic to include other non-exclusive schools of magic that have come out subsequent to the printing of CB2?
For example: Blue Flame Magic, Combat Magic, or Space Magic?

This one's been debated at length in the past. the short version is: Yes, a GM could reasonably make that a house rule, but barring an explicit update from palladium, it would be strictly unoffical.

[cornholioprime]

I have a follow-up question regarding the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic:
At the time it was printed the only schools of magic available in Rifts were:
-'Invocations' aka Spell Magic
-Tattoo Magic
-Bio-Wizardy
-Stone Magic
-Temporal Magic
-Herb Magic
-Necromancy
-Biomancy
-Elemental/Warlock
And it is entirely possible that Biomancy was not in print when the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic was written.
Of those schools, Tattoo Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Stone Magic, and Herb Magic are schools of magic that do not have spells, but use magic in other ways.
Elemental/Warlock magic (at that time) was exclusive to Warlocks. Biomancy is similarly exclusively restrictive.
While Temporal Magic and Necromancy Magic are restrictive, they are learnable by other classes.

So at the time the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic saw print it granted magic from every non-exclusive category of spell magic that existed at the time (in Rifts).

My question is this: Given the above information, would you update the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic to include other non-exclusive schools of magic that have come out subsequent to the printing of CB2?
For example: Blue Flame Magic, Combat Magic, or Space Magic?

Yes.

And not only would you be in the right to have subsequent Books (potentially) have spells that Yggdrasil could teach you, you would also be officially backed per the wording in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse AND the Mysteries Of Magic Sourcebook.

"The character.....knows spell magic equal to his level of experience (i.e., a 6th level character knows all spell magic from levels 1-6).

"As for new spells that appear in sourcebooks like this one, the monster [or Wizard or God or whoever] who 'knows all spell magic levels X through X' may indeed know these spells."

Einstein didn't invent Relativity; he merely deduced the necessary calculations to make what was previously unknown to humans, known.
Nor did Marconi invent radio waves, nor did Salk invent anti-polio antibodies.

They merely discovered knowledge that was already out there, somewhere.....and in all likelihood, Yggdrasil has a "database" of every possible magical configuration, some portion of which it passes on to the survivor of the ordeal.

After all, there are only a finite (even if very large) number of words and gestures in the Megaverse -and of those, only a relative few have useful application where spellcasting is concerned.

[13eowulf]

I have a follow-up question regarding the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic:
At the time it was printed the only schools of magic available in Rifts were:
-'Invocations' aka Spell Magic
-Tattoo Magic
-Bio-Wizardy
-Stone Magic
-Temporal Magic
-Herb Magic
-Necromancy
-Biomancy
-Elemental/Warlock
And it is entirely possible that Biomancy was not in print when the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic was written.
Of those schools, Tattoo Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Stone Magic, and Herb Magic are schools of magic that do not have spells, but use magic in other ways.
Elemental/Warlock magic (at that time) was exclusive to Warlocks. Biomancy is similarly exclusively restrictive.
While Temporal Magic and Necromancy Magic are restrictive, they are learnable by other classes.

So at the time the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic saw print it granted magic from every non-exclusive category of spell magic that existed at the time (in Rifts).

My question is this: Given the above information, would you update the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic to include other non-exclusive schools of magic that have come out subsequent to the printing of CB2?
For example: Blue Flame Magic, Combat Magic, or Space Magic?

Yes.

And not only would you be in the right to have subsequent Books (potentially) have spells that Yggdrasil could teach you, you would also be officially backed per the wording in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse AND the Mysteries Of Magic Sourcebook.

"The character.....knows spell magic equal to his level of experience (i.e., a 6th level character knows all spell magic from levels 1-6).

"As for new spells that appear in sourcebooks like this one, the monster [or Wizard or God or whoever] who 'knows all spell magic levels X through X' may indeed know these spells."

Einstein didn't invent Relativity; he merely deduced the necessary calculations to make what was previously unknown to humans, known.
Nor did Marconi invent radio waves, nor did Salk invent anti-polio antibodies.

They merely discovered knowledge that was already out there, somewhere.....and in all likelihood, Yggdrasil has a "database" of every possible magical configuration, some portion of which it passes on to the survivor of the ordeal.

After all, there are only a finite (even if very large) number of words and gestures in the Megaverse -and of those, only a relative few have useful application where spellcasting is concerned.

This is an excellent answer.
Given this, which schools of magic would you (or anyone) consider adding to this?
-Blue Flame Magic
-Bone Magic
-Book of Bygone Spirits
-Chaos Magic
-Combat Magic
-Demon Magic
-Fulminations
-Korallyte Magic
-Mirror Magic
-Mortificant Magic
-Mystic Bulwarks
-Nature Magic
-Ocean Magic
-Shadow Magic
-Space Magic
-Tome of Northern Winter
-Whale SInger SPellsongs
-Zodiac Magic

and lets not forget
-Arch-Mage Magic
-Apocalypse Magic
-Blade Magic
-Dewomer Magic
-Ludicrous Magic
-Space Magic (not the same as above, sort of)
-Spacial Magic
-Shadow Magic (not the same as above)
-Trisckster Magic
-War Magic

[cornholioprime]

I have a follow-up question regarding the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic:
At the time it was printed the only schools of magic available in Rifts were:
-'Invocations' aka Spell Magic
-Tattoo Magic
-Bio-Wizardy
-Stone Magic
-Temporal Magic
-Herb Magic
-Necromancy
-Biomancy
-Elemental/Warlock
And it is entirely possible that Biomancy was not in print when the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic was written.
Of those schools, Tattoo Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Stone Magic, and Herb Magic are schools of magic that do not have spells, but use magic in other ways.
Elemental/Warlock magic (at that time) was exclusive to Warlocks. Biomancy is similarly exclusively restrictive.
While Temporal Magic and Necromancy Magic are restrictive, they are learnable by other classes.

So at the time the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic saw print it granted magic from every non-exclusive category of spell magic that existed at the time (in Rifts).

My question is this: Given the above information, would you update the Yggdrasil Gift of Magic to include other non-exclusive schools of magic that have come out subsequent to the printing of CB2?
For example: Blue Flame Magic, Combat Magic, or Space Magic?

Yes.

And not only would you be in the right to have subsequent Books (potentially) have spells that Yggdrasil could teach you, you would also be officially backed per the wording in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse AND the Mysteries Of Magic Sourcebook.

"The character.....knows spell magic equal to his level of experience (i.e., a 6th level character knows all spell magic from levels 1-6).

"As for new spells that appear in sourcebooks like this one, the monster [or Wizard or God or whoever] who 'knows all spell magic levels X through X' may indeed know these spells."

Einstein didn't invent Relativity; he merely deduced the necessary calculations to make what was previously unknown to humans, known.
Nor did Marconi invent radio waves, nor did Salk invent anti-polio antibodies.

They merely discovered knowledge that was already out there, somewhere.....and in all likelihood, Yggdrasil has a "database" of every possible magical configuration, some portion of which it passes on to the survivor of the ordeal.

After all, there are only a finite (even if very large) number of words and gestures in the Megaverse -and of those, only a relative few have useful application where spellcasting is concerned.

This is an excellent answer.
Given this, which schools of magic would you (or anyone) consider adding to this?
-Blue Flame Magic
-Bone Magic
-Book of Bygone Spirits
-Chaos Magic
-Combat Magic
-Demon Magic
-Fulminations
-Korallyte Magic
-Mirror Magic
-Mortificant Magic
-Mystic Bulwarks
-Nature Magic
-Ocean Magic
-Shadow Magic
-Space Magic
-Tome of Northern Winter
-Whale SInger SPellsongs
-Zodiac Magic

and lets not forget
-Arch-Mage Magic
-Apocalypse Magic
-Blade Magic
-Dewomer Magic
-Ludicrous Magic
-Space Magic (not the same as above, sort of)
-Spacial Magic
-Shadow Magic (not the same as above)
-Trisckster Magic
-War Magic

I would say that ANY school of Magic that uses Spells -past, present, or future Books -would be potentially open to the recipient of Yggdrasil's gift.

(NOTE: I believe that you have to also be physically capable of recreating the spells in whatever language and body those spells need to be cast in, in order for them to work.

So if there is, say, a spell out there that requires hypersonic clicks combined with the simultaneous use of four to six arms, then only those creatures physically capable of doing so, could cast that spell. Likewise, I think that Zurvan is another 'real world' example; at least some of his spells are said to be impossible for non-4D beings to cast. I don't know if there actually is a class of species-specific spells out there in any of the books, just throwing this out there as an example.)

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
and lets not forget
-Arch-Mage Magic
-Apocalypse Magic
-Blade Magic
-Dewomer Magic
-Ludicrous Magic
-Space Magic (not the same as above, sort of)
-Spacial Magic
-Shadow Magic (not the same as above)
-Trickster Magic
-War Magic

You left out the Laser magic, and song magic, from the rifter specialty magics.

[Glistam]

Personally, I wouldn't include the optional Rifter magics. But I would use this simple rule of thumb: If the magic can be learned by a Ley Line Walker, then it would be granted.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Snip..
My question is, since it gives you a complete understanding of magic are you capable of learning spells at any time through conventional means?

Or is it, you only learn them through level gaining?

It basically states the later, but if you have a complete understanding of magic, why can't you learn spells on your own?
...snip

I would say that any magic that does not require a special link to a element or force, the char "with the gift" can learn those magics from teachers. Because they only have magic knowledge, not the links that make certain magics possible.

The level up spells are only the common magic spells (those detailed in the RMB).
The way the text is written about necro. and temporal spells, the gift receiver would get all of them with the gift of knowledge.

They would have to learn non-common magic spells because they are not strong enough in the "collective unconscious" to be transferred the the Gift holder.

[Drakenred®™©]

My anwser to that question would be yes you did learn all of thoes magics.... and since that would make your character to powerfull to be in this campain then your character is retired because EVERYONE EVERYWHERE has decided your too dangreous to allow to live and Several diferent poweres out there have each launched a literaly a Sun sized antimater warhead at you.....you have taken Infinity + 1 Gigadamage, please feel free to roll up a new character because Im moveing the campain to a univers where your character never existed but everyone elses did and is the exact same level as they were the instant your character died.

oh and yes none of your now dead characters stuff exists.....because it never existed in this univers. In fact noone in this reality has ever heard of your past character.

Seriously anyone who pulls out a character sheet that says "suvived being spiked on Yggdrasil" would not be allowe in my campain as a player character because Seriously they would know more about magic than Emnister and Kalecgos COMBINED. (in case you dont know who thoes two are, Emnister aparetnly Slept with and was THE chosene of the forgoten relms Goddes of magic... and Kalecgos....well not only is he the last Dragon Aspect of Magic itself, but he also had a romantic relationship with the magic of the Sunwell...and aparently she is a very nice looking woman and hes now aparently the mate of the most powerfull Mage in the world of warcraft.....seriously he guy gets around for being a blue dragon and yes I want there because Chriss Metzen has been there and back so many times the Ruts in the road have ruts.

[Nightmask]

My anwser to that question would be yes you did learn all of thoes magics.... and since that would make your character to powerfull to be in this campain then your character is retired because EVERYONE EVERYWHERE has decided your too dangreous to allow to live and Several diferent poweres out there have each launched a literaly a Sun sized antimater warhead at you.....you have taken Infinity + 1 Gigadamage, please feel free to roll up a new character because Im moveing the campain to a univers where your character never existed but everyone elses did and is the exact same level as they were the instant your character died.

oh and yes none of your now dead characters stuff exists.....because it never existed in this univers. In fact noone in this reality has ever heard of your past character.

Seriously anyone who pulls out a character sheet that says "suvived being spiked on Yggdrasil" would not be allowe in my campain as a player character because Seriously they would know more about magic than Emnister and Kalecgos COMBINED. (in case you dont know who thoes two are, Emnister aparetnly Slept with and was THE chosene of the forgoten relms Goddes of magic... and Kalecgos....well not only is he the last Dragon Aspect of Magic itself, but he also had a romantic relationship with the magic of the Sunwell...and aparently she is a very nice looking woman and hes now aparently the mate of the most powerfull Mage in the world of warcraft.....seriously he guy gets around for being a blue dragon and yes I want there because Chriss Metzen has been there and back so many times the Ruts in the road have ruts.

I think you are confusing AD&D spell access with Palladium spell access/power, and no one just because they know 'all about magic and all spells' is particularly powerful in Palladium. At a minimum they require vast amounts of PPE to work those spells and there aren't many who could keep track of thousands of spells to use them effectively anyway.

In regards to Elminster and his relationship with Mystra, he was powerful but so were a lot of people as Mystra has dozens of Chosen around the Realms (apparently it's one of those Godly portfolios where you can't have it all in one being even a god). He's ended up in a bad way plenty of times in straight on battles because his bonuses as a Chosen and being effectively a demi-god didn't make him invulnerable particularly against prepared opponents.

[13eowulf]

My anwser to that question would be yes you did learn all of thoes magics.... and since that would make your character to powerfull to be in this campain then your character is retired because EVERYONE EVERYWHERE has decided your too dangreous to allow to live and Several diferent poweres out there have each launched a literaly a Sun sized antimater warhead at you.....you have taken Infinity + 1 Gigadamage, please feel free to roll up a new character because Im moveing the campain to a univers where your character never existed but everyone elses did and is the exact same level as they were the instant your character died.

oh and yes none of your now dead characters stuff exists.....because it never existed in this univers. In fact noone in this reality has ever heard of your past character.

Seriously anyone who pulls out a character sheet that says "suvived being spiked on Yggdrasil" would not be allowe in my campain as a player character because Seriously they would know more about magic than Emnister and Kalecgos COMBINED. (in case you dont know who thoes two are, Emnister aparetnly Slept with and was THE chosene of the forgoten relms Goddes of magic... and Kalecgos....well not only is he the last Dragon Aspect of Magic itself, but he also had a romantic relationship with the magic of the Sunwell...and aparently she is a very nice looking woman and hes now aparently the mate of the most powerfull Mage in the world of warcraft.....seriously he guy gets around for being a blue dragon and yes I want there because Chriss Metzen has been there and back so many times the Ruts in the road have ruts.

You do understand that there are more uses for Yggdrasil than someone trying to put it on their sheet as background, right? Like NPCs, the Big Bad, in-game quests, etc.?

[drewkitty ~..~]

My anwser to that question would be yes you did learn all of thoes magics.... and since that would make your character to powerfull to be in this campain then your character is retired because EVERYONE EVERYWHERE has decided your too dangreous to allow to live and Several diferent poweres out there have each launched a literaly a Sun sized antimater warhead at you.....you have taken Infinity + 1 Gigadamage, please feel free to roll up a new character because Im moveing the campain to a univers where your character never existed but everyone elses did and is the exact same level as they were the instant your character died.

oh and yes none of your now dead characters stuff exists.....because it never existed in this univers. In fact noone in this reality has ever heard of your past character.

Seriously anyone who pulls out a character sheet that says "suvived being spiked on Yggdrasil" would not be allowe in my campain as a player character because Seriously they would know more about magic than Emnister and Kalecgos COMBINED. (in case you dont know who thoes two are, Emnister aparetnly Slept with and was THE chosene of the forgoten relms Goddes of magic... and Kalecgos....well not only is he the last Dragon Aspect of Magic itself, but he also had a romantic relationship with the magic of the Sunwell...and aparently she is a very nice looking woman and hes now aparently the mate of the most powerfull Mage in the world of warcraft.....seriously he guy gets around for being a blue dragon and yes I want there because Chriss Metzen has been there and back so many times the Ruts in the road have ruts.

So what you are saying is that Yggdrasil's Gift is so powerful that it would make the character unplayable? And thus making the char into a NPC? With implications that the player is a <cute little baby>?

[Drakenred®™©]

You do understand that there are more uses for Yggdrasil than someone trying to put it on their sheet as background, right? Like NPCs, the Big Bad, in-game quests, etc.?

you do know ive been at this for a few years now? (as in my First Paladium game that I GMed was Robotec way back when they shiped the first rullebook for it. Yes I know theres more you can use it for than as some Wanabeamunkinmage background.

But the reality is that there is no "impail yourself here" line to the old world tree. its not festuned with corpes of failed Wanabe Odins like some kind of Gigantic Interdimentional tree shaped Source Wall. Its suposed to be one of thoes rare things that happen once or twice in a mythology IF THAT.

Seriously the Judeo Christian Version of the Tree only let us know that we were naked and that it was posible to be naughty other people, but did not give us any actual ability to be naughty to other people or get dressed, we had to figure THAT out on our own) (the other Tree Granted Imortality)

Are there other things that can have the same abilitys as that? sure. are they going to be so comon that you can walk up to your local reality verion of Quarks and say hey you know where the local branch of the World tree is and have him go "just take a left at the bowling alley" and not have him expect even a single centi cred tip for because its kind of like asking where the bathroom is? No.

Incidentaly, if your just useing it as "NPC Background" while I do admit that creating background for my NPCs is fun , honestly most players dont care that that the local version Eminster as a kid Went to Hogwarts before Interning at Xaviors School for Gifted Youngsters before getting a Job teaching at the Istari School for advanced Wizardly studys where one of his most promising studets was Gandalph, and quite frankly since there suposed to be the Heroes of whatever it is your doing theres not mutch point in creating someone whos going to be a Mary Sue Rescue Ranger or Villan Sue super She Devil.

[Drakenred®™©]

Or to put it another way, as a GM your job is not to recreate Jesus Christ as part of your suporting cast and/or make the oposition/Main Villian Faust on steroids who Literaly has Satan and his hellish host as his personal pet lap poodle and pups.. Doing so only leades you into a lot of trouble even when you think your ready for it. In part because the reality is you are one GM. they are 2 to however many people are on your group. they Will talk with eachother behind your back and on forums you dont know about and find ways to beat you at your own game or they will give up on you and go play there own game if your not carefull.

because if your going to sick a Villian for whom the entire Paladium universes Catalog of spells and abiliies are simply pages in Volum one of the badguys spellbook, then your going to have to give your plaers something to counter that.

and if you give your players Access to someone for whom the entire well you get the point then unfortunatly your going to have to have Villians who are somehow still a credible threat on that level.

or in other words theres a reason why Spidreman spends a lot of time dealing with Minor Villiany like a street cop, and a Reason why Superman sticks Darksied on the Source wall and flat out called him a failure...(because he picked one too many idiot fights with Superman. Duh)

[13eowulf]

Oh Drakenred®™©, how you amuse me.

[Nightmask]

Or to put it another way, as a GM your job is not to recreate Jesus Christ as part of your suporting cast and/or make the oposition/Main Villian Faust on steroids who Literaly has Satan and his hellish host as his personal pet lap poodle and pups.. Doing so only leades you into a lot of trouble even when you think your ready for it. In part because the reality is you are one GM. they are 2 to however many people are on your group. they Will talk with eachother behind your back and on forums you dont know about and find ways to beat you at your own game or they will give up on you and go play there own game if your not carefull.

because if your going to sick a Villian for whom the entire Paladium universes Catalog of spells and abiliies are simply pages in Volum one of the badguys spellbook, then your going to have to give your plaers something to counter that.

and if you give your players Access to someone for whom the entire well you get the point then unfortunatly your going to have to have Villians who are somehow still a credible threat on that level.

or in other words theres a reason why Spidreman spends a lot of time dealing with Minor Villiany like a street cop, and a Reason why Superman sticks Darksied on the Source wall and flat out called him a failure...(because he picked one too many idiot fights with Superman. Duh)

Yes, Spider-man's doing that because of his 'With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility' credo, fighting for and saving everyone he can from anyone he can including your average human rapist or mugger, and Superman can't stick anyone to the Source Wall, it does that all on its own (or whatever is sealed behind it) when someone breaches it (although the one time Flash did Pre-Crisis since it was for a good cause he simply got the cure he needed for Orion and forgot everything else he experienced).

As I also already pointed out knowing every spell and being a credible threat are not the same thing, and a PC mage having survived the Yggdrasil ritual is still limited by his available PPE and the spells most commonly seen in the hands of mages are what he'd most likely end up using anyway meaning he's not significantly more threatening than he was before gaining all those spells. Particularly when you're requiring the Player to have to know what spells he intends to use promptly and require him to rely on his memory and ability to find a spell quickly enough to be explained by the PC's IQ being able to adequately use all that information. Just because you downloaded the entire library of congress into your head doesn't mean you can use it effectively after all, and just because a PC downloaded all existing spell magic into his head doesn't mean he can use it to massively amplify his threat level without improving other factors as well.

[Hotrod]

A slightly off-topic segue: Has anyone used Yggdrasil's Gift of Knowledge in an actual campaign/adventure? Did it work effectively? Was it a compelling aspect of the story? Did the character remain a viable part of the group, or was his/her power jump game-breaking?

[13eowulf]

A slightly off-topic segue: Has anyone used Yggdrasil's Gift of Knowledge in an actual campaign/adventure? Did it work effectively? Was it a compelling aspect of the story? Did the character remain a viable part of the group, or was his/her power jump game-breaking?

I don't understand how fellow GMs ever see certain things as "game breaking." In RIFTs, there's always a bigger fish, so there is nothing that PCs can have or do that is "game breaking." I have had PCs, that were played for 8 years and who acquired an assortment of powerful knowledge and equipment, who were killed by low level nothings armed with basic M.D. weapons because these low level NPCs zerged them and the PCs refused to retreat trusting to their great power. The only "game breaking" that I can see is if you have some PCs gaining much more power than others and lording over them, but that is easily fixed as well (storyline that their great equipment gets stolen or make an NPC that humiliates or kills them if the PC does not follow your rule of not bullying others).

To be honest, I have never experienced or had to do the later because I only run games with mature people who like to have fun together and don't bully each other through their game characters because they need to feel powerful in their pretend lives since they are not powerful in their real lives. Now, I have had scenarios were the PCs played characters of varying alignments and in playing to the alignments, had inter-group power struggle dynamics, but again this was done maturely and when a good PC had to kill an evil PC or vice versa (being true to the storyline and alignment), no person was upset since they anticipated that the scenario might eventually come to that.

As far as PCs becoming so powerful that I had to constantly revamp scenarios to give them an honest challenge, it only happened during a Coalition Campaign. The PCs were NOT powerful as individuals, but they worked together so tactically and cohesively (like a professional military unit should; and these players were all U.S.A. armed forces veterans) that they were able to overcome Federation of Magic foes that were immensely more powerful than them (also, I had to play the FoM NPCs true to their selfish and glory-hounding nature for storyline purposes, so it really hurt their performance). So I honestly don't understand how this could be "game breaking?" Magical knowledge is wonderful and gives a player options, but just because they know every spell, it does not mean they can cast more than someone who knows very little or that they have more P.P.E. from which to cast said spells. I find that being able to cast more spells per melee or having a ridiculous amount of P.P.E. to be a greater cause of "game breaking" mechanics than just vast spell knowledge.

I hope this perspective of mine helps in easing fellow GMs' willingness to let PCs EARN (not be simply given; it is much more special when earned) additional spell knowledge in which to enjoy their characters with.

Well Said!

[Nightmask]

A slightly off-topic segue: Has anyone used Yggdrasil's Gift of Knowledge in an actual campaign/adventure? Did it work effectively? Was it a compelling aspect of the story? Did the character remain a viable part of the group, or was his/her power jump game-breaking?

I don't understand how fellow GMs ever see certain things as "game breaking." In RIFTs, there's always a bigger fish, so there is nothing that PCs can have or do that is "game breaking." I have had PCs, that were played for 8 years and who acquired an assortment of powerful knowledge and equipment, who were killed by low level nothings armed with basic M.D. weapons because these low level NPCs zerged them and the PCs refused to retreat trusting to their great power. The only "game breaking" that I can see is if you have some PCs gaining much more power than others and lording over them, but that is easily fixed as well (storyline that their great equipment gets stolen or make an NPC that humiliates or kills them if the PC does not follow your rule of not bullying others).

To be honest, I have never experienced or had to do the later because I only run games with mature people who like to have fun together and don't bully each other through their game characters because they need to feel powerful in their pretend lives since they are not powerful in their real lives. Now, I have had scenarios were the PCs played characters of varying alignments and in playing to the alignments, had inter-group power struggle dynamics, but again this was done maturely and when a good PC had to kill an evil PC or vice versa (being true to the storyline and alignment), no person was upset since they anticipated that the scenario might eventually come to that.

As far as PCs becoming so powerful that I had to constantly revamp scenarios to give them an honest challenge, it only happened during a Coalition Campaign. The PCs were NOT powerful as individuals, but they worked together so tactically and cohesively (like a professional military unit should; and these players were all U.S.A. armed forces veterans) that they were able to overcome Federation of Magic foes that were immensely more powerful than them (also, I had to play the FoM NPCs true to their selfish and glory-hounding nature for storyline purposes, so it really hurt their performance). So I honestly don't understand how this could be "game breaking?" Magical knowledge is wonderful and gives a player options, but just because they know every spell, it does not mean they can cast more than someone who knows very little or that they have more P.P.E. from which to cast said spells. I find that being able to cast more spells per melee or having a ridiculous amount of P.P.E. to be a greater cause of "game breaking" mechanics than just vast spell knowledge.

I hope this perspective of mine helps in easing fellow GMs' willingness to let PCs EARN (not be simply given; it is much more special when earned) additional spell knowledge in which to enjoy their characters with.

There's a thread on Yggdrasil over in the Rifts forums where similar issues came up, the 'it makes the PC too powerful!' and all that, while ignoring the limitations on the PC such as PPE and number of spells that can be cast.

Something to add is the simple fact that if a PC can find and fight his way to the tree and hold out against the possible threats that come along in the mean time he's already powerful enough that the Yggdrasil gift is a well-earned reward for such skilled gameplay if he survives the ritual. It's not like it's some giveaway where you can find the tree in the village square and stake yourself to it while someone hangs a flat screen in front of you so you don't get bored while you power up, it is or should be a major quest that required everything the PC could manage and more to reach and survive. By the time you've done that you've definitely earned it (provided you make the saving throws).

[Damian Magecraft]

A slightly off-topic segue: Has anyone used Yggdrasil's Gift of Knowledge in an actual campaign/adventure? Did it work effectively? Was it a compelling aspect of the story? Did the character remain a viable part of the group, or was his/her power jump game-breaking?

I don't understand how fellow GMs ever see certain things as "game breaking." In RIFTs, there's always a bigger fish, so there is nothing that PCs can have or do that is "game breaking." I have had PCs, that were played for 8 years and who acquired an assortment of powerful knowledge and equipment, who were killed by low level nothings armed with basic M.D. weapons because these low level NPCs zerged them and the PCs refused to retreat trusting to their great power. The only "game breaking" that I can see is if you have some PCs gaining much more power than others and lording over them, but that is easily fixed as well (storyline that their great equipment gets stolen or make an NPC that humiliates or kills them if the PC does not follow your rule of not bullying others).

To be honest, I have never experienced or had to do the later because I only run games with mature people who like to have fun together and don't bully each other through their game characters because they need to feel powerful in their pretend lives since they are not powerful in their real lives. Now, I have had scenarios were the PCs played characters of varying alignments and in playing to the alignments, had inter-group power struggle dynamics, but again this was done maturely and when a good PC had to kill an evil PC or vice versa (being true to the storyline and alignment), no person was upset since they anticipated that the scenario might eventually come to that.

As far as PCs becoming so powerful that I had to constantly revamp scenarios to give them an honest challenge, it only happened during a Coalition Campaign. The PCs were NOT powerful as individuals, but they worked together so tactically and cohesively (like a professional military unit should; and these players were all U.S.A. armed forces veterans) that they were able to overcome Federation of Magic foes that were immensely more powerful than them (also, I had to play the FoM NPCs true to their selfish and glory-hounding nature for storyline purposes, so it really hurt their performance). So I honestly don't understand how this could be "game breaking?" Magical knowledge is wonderful and gives a player options, but just because they know every spell, it does not mean they can cast more than someone who knows very little or that they have more P.P.E. from which to cast said spells. I find that being able to cast more spells per melee or having a ridiculous amount of P.P.E. to be a greater cause of "game breaking" mechanics than just vast spell knowledge.

I hope this perspective of mine helps in easing fellow GMs' willingness to let PCs EARN (not be simply given; it is much more special when earned) additional spell knowledge in which to enjoy their characters with.

There's a thread on Yggdrasil over in the Rifts forums where similar issues came up, the 'it makes the PC too powerful!' and all that, while ignoring the limitations on the PC such as PPE and number of spells that can be cast.

Something to add is the simple fact that if a PC can find and fight his way to the tree and hold out against the possible threats that come along in the mean time he's already powerful enough that the Yggdrasil gift is a well-earned reward for such skilled gameplay if he survives the ritual. It's not like it's some giveaway where you can find the tree in the village square and stake yourself to it while someone hangs a flat screen in front of you so you don't get bored while you power up, it is or should be a major quest that required everything the PC could manage and more to reach and survive. By the time you've done that you've definitely earned it (provided you make the saving throws).

funny thing about that...
Since the release of CB2 I have seen an even dozen characters with the powers granted from old yggs ceremony but no one other than the player of said character can confirm the "adventure" where the ceremony happened even though 7 of them claimed to have achieved said powers in the chats but they cannot recall the GMs handle...(convenient that)

[Nightmask]

A slightly off-topic segue: Has anyone used Yggdrasil's Gift of Knowledge in an actual campaign/adventure? Did it work effectively? Was it a compelling aspect of the story? Did the character remain a viable part of the group, or was his/her power jump game-breaking?

I don't understand how fellow GMs ever see certain things as "game breaking." In RIFTs, there's always a bigger fish, so there is nothing that PCs can have or do that is "game breaking." I have had PCs, that were played for 8 years and who acquired an assortment of powerful knowledge and equipment, who were killed by low level nothings armed with basic M.D. weapons because these low level NPCs zerged them and the PCs refused to retreat trusting to their great power. The only "game breaking" that I can see is if you have some PCs gaining much more power than others and lording over them, but that is easily fixed as well (storyline that their great equipment gets stolen or make an NPC that humiliates or kills them if the PC does not follow your rule of not bullying others).

To be honest, I have never experienced or had to do the later because I only run games with mature people who like to have fun together and don't bully each other through their game characters because they need to feel powerful in their pretend lives since they are not powerful in their real lives. Now, I have had scenarios were the PCs played characters of varying alignments and in playing to the alignments, had inter-group power struggle dynamics, but again this was done maturely and when a good PC had to kill an evil PC or vice versa (being true to the storyline and alignment), no person was upset since they anticipated that the scenario might eventually come to that.

As far as PCs becoming so powerful that I had to constantly revamp scenarios to give them an honest challenge, it only happened during a Coalition Campaign. The PCs were NOT powerful as individuals, but they worked together so tactically and cohesively (like a professional military unit should; and these players were all U.S.A. armed forces veterans) that they were able to overcome Federation of Magic foes that were immensely more powerful than them (also, I had to play the FoM NPCs true to their selfish and glory-hounding nature for storyline purposes, so it really hurt their performance). So I honestly don't understand how this could be "game breaking?" Magical knowledge is wonderful and gives a player options, but just because they know every spell, it does not mean they can cast more than someone who knows very little or that they have more P.P.E. from which to cast said spells. I find that being able to cast more spells per melee or having a ridiculous amount of P.P.E. to be a greater cause of "game breaking" mechanics than just vast spell knowledge.

I hope this perspective of mine helps in easing fellow GMs' willingness to let PCs EARN (not be simply given; it is much more special when earned) additional spell knowledge in which to enjoy their characters with.

There's a thread on Yggdrasil over in the Rifts forums where similar issues came up, the 'it makes the PC too powerful!' and all that, while ignoring the limitations on the PC such as PPE and number of spells that can be cast.

Something to add is the simple fact that if a PC can find and fight his way to the tree and hold out against the possible threats that come along in the mean time he's already powerful enough that the Yggdrasil gift is a well-earned reward for such skilled gameplay if he survives the ritual. It's not like it's some giveaway where you can find the tree in the village square and stake yourself to it while someone hangs a flat screen in front of you so you don't get bored while you power up, it is or should be a major quest that required everything the PC could manage and more to reach and survive. By the time you've done that you've definitely earned it (provided you make the saving throws).

funny thing about that...
Since the release of CB2 I have seen an even dozen characters with the powers granted from old yggs ceremony but no one other than the player of said character can confirm the "adventure" where the ceremony happened even though 7 of them claimed to have achieved said powers in the chats but they cannot recall the GMs handle...(convenient that)

Which has no bearing on my post, someone simply claiming they've got it without justification and without earning it really isn't relevant, nor someone whose GM hands things out like candy (the monty haul GM). I specifically noted PC who have actually earned it, surviving quests in-game to pull off the achievement. If they can earn it they deserve it, and if they can earn it they're already powerful enough that the added stuff from the tree isn't going to significantly increase them in power or versatility.

[Damian Magecraft]

I don't understand how fellow GMs ever see certain things as "game breaking." In RIFTs, there's always a bigger fish, so there is nothing that PCs can have or do that is "game breaking." I have had PCs, that were played for 8 years and who acquired an assortment of powerful knowledge and equipment, who were killed by low level nothings armed with basic M.D. weapons because these low level NPCs zerged them and the PCs refused to retreat trusting to their great power. The only "game breaking" that I can see is if you have some PCs gaining much more power than others and lording over them, but that is easily fixed as well (storyline that their great equipment gets stolen or make an NPC that humiliates or kills them if the PC does not follow your rule of not bullying others).

To be honest, I have never experienced or had to do the later because I only run games with mature people who like to have fun together and don't bully each other through their game characters because they need to feel powerful in their pretend lives since they are not powerful in their real lives. Now, I have had scenarios were the PCs played characters of varying alignments and in playing to the alignments, had inter-group power struggle dynamics, but again this was done maturely and when a good PC had to kill an evil PC or vice versa (being true to the storyline and alignment), no person was upset since they anticipated that the scenario might eventually come to that.

As far as PCs becoming so powerful that I had to constantly revamp scenarios to give them an honest challenge, it only happened during a Coalition Campaign. The PCs were NOT powerful as individuals, but they worked together so tactically and cohesively (like a professional military unit should; and these players were all U.S.A. armed forces veterans) that they were able to overcome Federation of Magic foes that were immensely more powerful than them (also, I had to play the FoM NPCs true to their selfish and glory-hounding nature for storyline purposes, so it really hurt their performance). So I honestly don't understand how this could be "game breaking?" Magical knowledge is wonderful and gives a player options, but just because they know every spell, it does not mean they can cast more than someone who knows very little or that they have more P.P.E. from which to cast said spells. I find that being able to cast more spells per melee or having a ridiculous amount of P.P.E. to be a greater cause of "game breaking" mechanics than just vast spell knowledge.

I hope this perspective of mine helps in easing fellow GMs' willingness to let PCs EARN (not be simply given; it is much more special when earned) additional spell knowledge in which to enjoy their characters with.

There's a thread on Yggdrasil over in the Rifts forums where similar issues came up, the 'it makes the PC too powerful!' and all that, while ignoring the limitations on the PC such as PPE and number of spells that can be cast.

Something to add is the simple fact that if a PC can find and fight his way to the tree and hold out against the possible threats that come along in the mean time he's already powerful enough that the Yggdrasil gift is a well-earned reward for such skilled gameplay if he survives the ritual. It's not like it's some giveaway where you can find the tree in the village square and stake yourself to it while someone hangs a flat screen in front of you so you don't get bored while you power up, it is or should be a major quest that required everything the PC could manage and more to reach and survive. By the time you've done that you've definitely earned it (provided you make the saving throws).

funny thing about that...
Since the release of CB2 I have seen an even dozen characters with the powers granted from old yggs ceremony but no one other than the player of said character can confirm the "adventure" where the ceremony happened even though 7 of them claimed to have achieved said powers in the chats but they cannot recall the GMs handle...(convenient that)

Which has no bearing on my post, someone simply claiming they've got it without justification and without earning it really isn't relevant, nor someone whose GM hands things out like candy (the monty haul GM). I specifically noted PC who have actually earned it, surviving quests in-game to pull off the achievement. If they can earn it they deserve it, and if they can earn it they're already powerful enough that the added stuff from the tree isn't going to significantly increase them in power or versatility.

actually it has quite a great deal to do with your post...
I do not disagree that the gift as an adventure should be an epic.
the problem you hint at of GMs poo pooing it as "unbalancing" (a polite word for munchkin) and why they do is what I was pointing out.
In other words...
as an adventure it would be grand...
but experience says a player who wants the power for their character wants the benefit without the effort.

[Nightmask]

Which has no bearing on my post, someone simply claiming they've got it without justification and without earning it really isn't relevant, nor someone whose GM hands things out like candy (the monty haul GM). I specifically noted PC who have actually earned it, surviving quests in-game to pull off the achievement. If they can earn it they deserve it, and if they can earn it they're already powerful enough that the added stuff from the tree isn't going to significantly increase them in power or versatility.

actually it has quite a great deal to do with your post...
I do not disagree that the gift as an adventure should be an epic.
the problem you hint at of GMs poo pooing it as "unbalancing" (a polite word for munchkin) and why they do is what I was pointing out.
In other words...
as an adventure it would be grand...
but experience says a player who wants the power for their character wants the benefit without the effort.

Overgeneralizing from personal experience is a common fallacy, nor is there any hint of what you claim in my post.

People in general prefer the most reward for the least effort, some like to grind and toil others do not. They also tend to want the best for their character, whether it be the best power armor they can get for their power armor pilot or the best spells for a mage and certainly Yggdrasil, for any PC that had valid reason to know of it, would be the greatest draw for a mage but only the bravest or craziest would try for it (and part of your quest requires you actually acquire the rune weapon needed to pin yourself to the tree, if you can't ever get one you can't ever do the ritual). But once a GM makes it actually available for a PC to quest after and the PC actually succeeds then the GM has no room to complain about it and pull any screw-over stunts like insta-kill strikes or 'well your character is mine now'. That's one of the top header complaints for the 'Bad GM' threads.

[say652]

I asked for this power to create a greater norse giant to challenge Asgard my gm rolled and i got totally screwed by the alignment reverse, i went from abberant to scrupulous. also i picked up a frenzy triggered by intense frustration. Sure this power seems great buit a whole bunch of negative things accompany it. and besides while Temporal spells are great you would be better off choosing a temporal class for learning them. i don't know about necromancy magic as scrupulous my GM wouldn't even let me read the books containig necromancer abilities.

[cornholioprime]

I asked for this power to create a greater norse giant to challenge Asgard my gm rolled and i got totally screwed by the alignment reverse, i went from abberant to scrupulous. also i picked up a frenzy triggered by intense frustration. Sure this power seems great buit a whole bunch of negative things accompany it. and besides while Temporal spells are great you would be better off choosing a temporal class for learning them. i don't know about necromancy magic as scrupulous my GM wouldn't even let me read the books containig necromancer abilities.

Are you confusing Yggdrasil's Gift with the Azlum Asylum?

[Hotrod]

As I understand it, here is what it would take to get the gift:

0. You get a magic weapon (not a trivial acquisition)
1. You get your character into Asgard. That's not a trivial trip.
2. You get by Heimdall, the guardian-god of Asgard who is charged with keeping out intruders. (alternately, find one of the rifts that go directly to the tree)
2. You find the big tree.
3. You somehow either evade the World Serpent (who likes to eat people and considers the tree to be his... all his), or convince him to leave you alone. By the way, this is an invincible, diabolic dragon.
4. You get impaled on the tree with your magic weapon.
5. You stay impaled, and somehow the World Serpent and the other locals leave you alone.
6. You roll to save vs coma/death. The chance is your Physical Endurance + your level. This is likely to be under 50%.
7. If you survive, you have a 75-80% chance of going insane, with no bonuses to save (straight %)

In summary, you have to do a lot of very difficult things in a very dangerous place. Aside from all the related problems, your odds of coming through this endeavor alive and sane are in the neighborhood of 10%. This isn't the kind of thing most players would go for. Of course, there are some ways to shorten this process. Playing an Asgardian Dwarf, Elf, or Valkyrie, or be chosen as a Warrior of Valhalla. Starting in Asgard would help.

It's a nifty piece of lore, but honestly, I wouldn't be interested.

[Nightmask]

As I understand it, here is what it would take to get the gift:

0. You get a magic weapon (not a trivial acquisition)
1. You get your character into Asgard. That's not a trivial trip.
2. You get by Heimdall, the guardian-god of Asgard who is charged with keeping out intruders. (alternately, find one of the rifts that go directly to the tree)
2. You find the big tree.
3. You somehow either evade the World Serpent (who likes to eat people and considers the tree to be his... all his), or convince him to leave you alone. By the way, this is an invincible, diabolic dragon.
4. You get impaled on the tree with your magic weapon.
5. You stay impaled, and somehow the World Serpent and the other locals leave you alone.
6. You roll to save vs coma/death. The chance is your Physical Endurance + your level. This is likely to be under 50%.
7. If you survive, you have a 75-80% chance of going insane, with no bonuses to save (straight %)

In summary, you have to do a lot of very difficult things in a very dangerous place. Aside from all the related problems, your odds of coming through this endeavor alive and sane are in the neighborhood of 10%. This isn't the kind of thing most players would go for. Of course, there are some ways to shorten this process. Playing an Asgardian Dwarf, Elf, or Valkyrie, or be chosen as a Warrior of Valhalla. Starting in Asgard would help.

It's a nifty piece of lore, but honestly, I wouldn't be interested.

Considering how many gods know about the tree, gods with an obsession for magical knowledge, but only Odin is known to have risked it even the gods don't consider the tree's shortcut to ultimate magical knowledge worth it and would rather learn it the conventional way. Only a desperate, brave, or insanely foolhardy mortal would ever attempt it.

[13eowulf]

Only a desperate, brave, or insanely foolhardy mortal would ever attempt it.

I see you have met most of the characters I have GM'd for.... well maybe not 'brave'....

[Nightmask]

Only a desperate, brave, or insanely foolhardy mortal would ever attempt it.

I see you have met most of the characters I have GM'd for.... well maybe not 'brave'....

I think we can't fault the characters because their players are idiots or have an 'I can always make another 'attitude so don't care how reckless they are in their pursuits. *gets an image of a character desperately begging the Gods to free it from the capriciousness of the voices in its head making it do such insane things*

[say652]

I asked for this power to create a greater norse giant to challenge Asgard my gm rolled and i got totally screwed by the alignment reverse, i went from abberant to scrupulous. also i picked up a frenzy triggered by intense frustration. Sure this power seems great buit a whole bunch of negative things accompany it. and besides while Temporal spells are great you would be better off choosing a temporal class for learning them. i don't know about necromancy magic as scrupulous my GM wouldn't even let me read the books containig necromancer abilities.

Are you confusing Yggdrasil's Gift with the Azlum Asylum?

I was reading the Panteons book, found the norse giant, reread book found yqqdrasil gift of knowledge, I asked about it after i rolled up the character I asked about the trees gift, the GM said sure but he rolls for it I agreed, and got an alignment reverse/ reborn and another mental disorder. cool stuff but there is betteroptions for magic abilities out there, I mean if paid more attention to the Atlantis book a Bio-borg Temporal warrior would be way way better, symbiotes, bioborg upgrades, increased ppe from eyes of eyelor, etc.

[Hotrod]

This topic inspired me.

[glitterboy2098]

i have a few questions/thoughts..

does it indicate that you have to stake yourself to the tree in any specific spot, or is it just "reach the tree and impale yourself"? since the tree stretches across multiple dimensions, if you could find the point where the 'root' for say, midgard/earth is, in theory if it isn't localized to a specific point you could try this without having to deal with Asgard..

second, would a werewolf have a better chance of surviving the whole experience than a human? while the magic weapon used would hurt them, their regen should keep them alive the whole time..

[Nightmask]

i have a few questions/thoughts..

does it indicate that you have to stake yourself to the tree in any specific spot, or is it just "reach the tree and impale yourself"? since the tree stretches across multiple dimensions, if you could find the point where the 'root' for say, midgard/earth is, in theory if it isn't localized to a specific point you could try this without having to deal with Asgard..

second, would a werewolf have a better chance of surviving the whole experience than a human? while the magic weapon used would hurt them, their regen should keep them alive the whole time..

The trunk of the tree would seem to be the appropriate spot, and as I've pointed out before if a god's regeneration (and a pantheon leader at that) wasn't enough a mortal creature's regeneration isn't going to do them any good either. The trial is far far more than simply suffering without food and water for 9 days and nights, you're very essence is bound to the tree (hence the magical weapon requirement) and wracked by Yggdrasil for the duration. If body and soul can't handle the hardship you die, and even if it manages to do so it still might break you mentally due to the harshness of what's required to engrave the gift of magical knowledge the three offers up onto your being.

[glitterboy2098]

obviously it wouldn't effect the spiritual side of the tree's test. but the physiocal side is about surviving having a sword or spear impale you, and then hanging there on it. humans are going to bleed out in hours, much less the days needed for the tree's test. but someone with regen would, at the very least, be able to avoid systemic organ failure from the wound and loss of blood. which should make it possible for them to at least attempt it without some sort of medical team on site.

[cornholioprime]

obviously it wouldn't effect the spiritual side of the tree's test. but the physiocal side is about surviving having a sword or spear impale you, and then hanging there on it. humans are going to bleed out in hours, much less the days needed for the tree's test. but someone with regen would, at the very least, be able to avoid systemic organ failure from the wound and loss of blood. which should make it possible for them to at least attempt it without some sort of medical team on site.

The way that the Yggdrasil Ordeal is written, its "nullification abilities" go both ways.

Since most creatures of our biological complexity cannot survive nine days and nights without water (no, the recycling systems of creatures like Kangaroo Rats, or drinking one's own urine doesn't count), it is therefore safe to assume that not only does Yggdrasil nullify super-powers and abilities in creatures who would otherwise easily be able to survive the process, it also magically sustains those individuals who normally, surely perish from the combination of no food, no water, and the systemic damage that would come from an impalement of any sort combined with the aforementioned deprivation.


Like the joke about Gravity, it's not the long "journey down" with Yggdrasil that can kill you, it's the sudden "stop" at the end.......