Fighting Magic.

[AmberImmortal]

In my campaign, I have taken into account the fact that mages are not combat inclined. This is stated specifically in Rifts Ultimate Edition. This is taken care of by having somebody with you at all times who is of combat/military inclination. A bodyguard, if you will. So, I'm well aware that a regular mage couldn't stand toe-toe in a fist fight with a trained soldier. But, what if he were also a trained soldier? (Mystic Study allows this, review it if you need to).

Invisibility: simple is affected by Thermographics and such. However, those aren't always issued or used. For a governmental military team it's entirely possible that they would be issued such equipment. For a paramilitary group it's very possible that they won't. After all, they may not have the kind of money they'd like. Shadow meld is not and it takes three hundred watts of light to dispel it.

You asked If Blinding Flash and Globe of Daylight would have any effect on me. Blinding flash: yes. Globe of Daylight: if I were wearing nightvision, yes. Blinding Flash is described as being like a flash bang. I'm assuming that those have a particular effect. And with nightvision goggles even lightbulbs hurt.

Before anyone else decides to argue spells, read them. Heavy Breathing has a 1-60 percent chance of making anyone who fails their save flee in terror. The soldier in question had already failed their saves against the spell Fear. So, yeah. They ran away. It's magical Horror not a haunted house.


I'm getting kind of tired of this debate. it's old now and not at all what I wanted to talk about. I wanted some Palladium mechanics and character ideas that are good for countering magic. I didn't want to debate on how or why mages and soldiers may or may not be able to take each other on. I know that threads often go off topic. This is fine. It's to be expected. However, if we could please get back to my original query, I would really appreciate it.

[AmberImmortal]

"Now I realize I might be poking a hornets nest here, but I am genuinely interested:
How would a militarily-trained mage affect this scenario? Most predominantly a Battle Mage, who is both Soldier and Spell Caster. But also Combat Mages or Mystic Knights, who are both trained as soldiers in addition to their mystical abilities.[/quote]


Pardon, I haven't quite mastered the art of quoting but, Disregard that last part of my previous post. the part about wanting to leave this topic alone. I'm curious now. I brought this up as well. What if said mage were also a well-trained soldier. They can have the Military Specialist education minus one skill program. That still means that they have quite a bit of military training and badassery.

(I would like to clarify, briefly, that in all my posts and counter points that I do not in any way wish to insinuate that a mage is more badass then a soldier or team of soldiers. I simply believe that mages are just as badass. I happen to like magic and it's possibilites. I'm simply stating that either side if sufficently prepared, could take out the other. It all depends on who gets the upper hand. Now if you take peanut butter (mages) and then take chocolate (soldiers) and put them together.....)



I would like to congradulate myself for a Reese's cup reference. You're welcome.

[flatline]

None of these things will work every time. Nothing period works every time.

Some spells work every time unless you're near a nega-psychic, a psi-nullifier, or an anti-magic cloud.

My favorite example is, of course, Time Slip,but there are many others, some of which you've already mentioned (cloud of smoke, armor of ithan, etc).

--flatline

[AmberImmortal]

None of these things will work every time. Nothing period works every time.

Some spells work every time unless you're near a nega-psychic, a psi-nullifier, or an anti-magic cloud.

My favorite example is, of course, Time Slip,but there are many others, some of which you've already mentioned (cloud of smoke, armor of ithan, etc).

--flatline

I simply meant that ones plan to use said spells isn't always going to work. Not the spells themselves. Like using cloud of smoke to make a car spin out of control on an icey road. It could work but, certainly not every time.

[AmberImmortal]

Immobilize always works. it's an 8 ft cone of Frozen time.

Really? that's awesome.

[slade the sniper]

Magic in the Military...an analysis...

Well, looking at magic from a capability standpoint, there is not a lot that magic can offer that trumps tech in a modern world and it is comparable to late Victorian/steampunk effectiveness.

If you were going to lose a skill program, they would then gain knowledge of a few spells that directly aid their MOS/function in the military. Generally Infantry, Armor, Military Intelligence, Military Police and Combat Engineers would gain the most benefit from magic and a LOT of spells would make their job a lot easier.

The big moneymakers are things like teleport, scry, and other magic rituals and high level spells that offer capabilities for a much lower manpower cost that comparable technological solutions or utility spells that make life easier. The offensive/defensive stuff is generally not comparable in rate of fire or range, and would probably be avoided. The spells I would use as a mystic soldier would be (with the understanding they are working in a team and not playing solo cool guy wizard):

Spoiler:

Agony – a great punishment for UCMJ…better than 45 and 45. Would be used like flogging was…but less…exertion.
Animate and Control Dead – um…mortuary affairs would use this, and if your dead troops can extract themselves without having to carry them, you can retain more firepower and speed on the exfil.
Apparition (Interrogators, Drill Sergeants, First Sergeants!)
Astral Projection (intel gathering and recon)
Call Lightning (good skill for forward observers or guys in close combat when the FPF is too damn slow!)
Calling (last ditch commo plan)
Carpet of Adhesion (to keep targets in the kill zone)
Charismatic Aura (for doing meet and greets with the locals, great for HUMINT)
Compulsion (for bad leaders who have no leadership)
Constrain Being – MP’s if they are guarding some supernatural creatures…
Cure Illness (Medics)
Cure Minor Disorders (good for Medics)
Dispel Magic Barriers – your demo breachers would use this…
Domination (Interrogators, Drill Sergeants, First Sergeants!)
Energy Disruption (just before you enter an objective in an urban environment…turn out the lights, jam comms, shut off sensors)
Energy Field (for doing demo in enclosed areas, like in an urban environment, good for EOD guys too)
Escape (teach this at SERE school!)
Eyes of Thoth (for Intel types on the Objective….no need for terps, on the spot DOCEX)
Float in Air (instead of jumping in)
Fly (everyone can be air assault qualified!)
Fly as the Eagle – better than Fly, so this would be your Jumpmasters 
Globe of silence – good for your unit on patrol (but can mask enemy moving towards you as well) patrol base and those annoying snoring people in the barracks
Heal Wounds (for Medics and anyone who has an open spell)
Horrific Illusion (Interrogators, Drill Sergeants, First Sergeants!)
Impervious to Energy (anyone in combat!)
Impervious to Fire (for first responders and fire fighters)
Invisibility – good for your moving patrol, good for your patrol base…MPs would want a way to negate this
Invulnerability (good for your assault teams, would be used on leaders and pointmen first)
Levitation/Climb (instead of abseiling or mountaineering)
Ley Line Transmission (good for a failsafe commo plan)
Magic Net (good for MPs and for capture/kill operations)
Magic Pigeon (for commo guys)
Mask of Deceit (for high level HUMINT types and deep cover LEOs, CI guys too)
Memory bank (good for data dumps before the mission, reduces time memorizing FRAGOs, Call Signs, Grids, etc.)
Metamorphosis: Animal & Insect & Mist – good for while on patrol…reduces need for a patrol base, and a must for recon teams
Multiple Image (good for actions on the objective to redirect enemy attention)
Mystic Alarm (instead of having to observe every avenue of approach and allows lower security on your patrol base)
Negate Poisons/Toxins (as prophylaxis and great for Medics)
Paralysis:Lesser (to take prisoners or good for medics to keep wounded guys from moving during extraction/treatment)
Purification – VITAL for long duration patrols! Less weight to carry and your patrol can last a LOT longer
Reduce Self (repair techs and recon troops, and would be good for moving large amounts of troops quickly, so loggies will love it)
Repel animals (if it works on insects, this is a PERFECT spell for use in a patrol base while in some god-awful swamp with mosquitoes the size of helicopters)
Seal (good for couriers if you can seal documents, or for transpo guys shipping ammo in conexes or other sensitive items)
Second Sight – MPs, and leaders at every level. Headquarters types would LOVE this so they could get real on the ground info accurately and quickly much more efficiently than radio or video AND it doesn’t take the “sender” any effort to do it, so they can focus on fighting at the same time.
See Aura/Sense Evil (as opposed to an MTBI with a full scope poly, great for HUMINT and CI)
Sleep (anyone would want this in the field when it sucks…two gulps and you get some rack!)
Superhuman speed (recon troops, especially LRS guys)
Superhuman Strength (for engineers…and infantry and tankers, because the engineers are NEVER there to build your defensive positions)
Swim as a fish (for amphibious insertions)
Telekinesis (for unloading trucks and building fortifications, good for loggies and engineers)
Teleport lesser (fast deployment to the AO, wake up, teleport, kill, teleport back, watch your kid’s football game…would reduce family stress and cost a lot less than building bases all over the world)
Time Slip – This would be highly regulated for who could learn it, but it would be useful for most combat leaders when bad decisions cost lives…but slicky boy barracks thieves would LOVE it too.
Tongues – Any HUMINT/SIGINT type and leaders that deal with indigs. Would make war cheaper since no terps are needed.
Trance (for capture/kill operations and for medics for badly wounded troops to buy time for stabilization)
Turn Dead (because Zombies use lots up lots of ammo, and other undead are an actual threat)
Words of Truth – HUMINT/CI and MP types…First Sergeants and Courts Martials Panels
Commune with Spirits – Good for recon and pre mission intel
Exorcism – Engineers would use this to rid a nice base of it’s former inhabitants
Eyes of the Wolf – good for recon troops
Locate – A MUST for tracking patrols and MPs
Curses, any – HUMINT types could use this if they were able to get to a target before they are scheduled for a kill/capture operation
Metamorphosis: Human & Superior – Special Recon and HUMINT/CI and MPs would use it
Negate magic – Breachers and EOD types would use it, some MI types
Oracle – MI types would KILL for this and use it constantly
Sickness – good if you are doing a false flag operation for HUMINT types
Spoil – good for false flag operations and would be used when you are bugging out of a location and don’t want the bad guys to use your chow
Flesh to stone/Stone to flesh – MPs for prisoner transport and medics who transport patients they could not stabilize
Wisps of confusion – used at the same time when you toss in the flash bang grenades
Familiar Link – Great for being on guard duty and for pulling outer security or recon on an objective…
Mute – Good for capture/kills, sentry neutralization, screaming patients (Medics) and rowdy prisoners (MPs)
Circles – used by engineers when making a base
Summon and control canines – good for guard duty on large bases and good for tracking patrols
Speed of the Snail – capture/kill operations, tracking patrols when they see the target and MPs
Water to Wine – Cooks would live and die by this spell
Banishment – Engineers
Control/Enslave Entity – MPs when guarding supernatural forces
Mystic Portal – Logistics guys would LOVE this spell…much easier than planes, trains, ships and trucks. GREAT for moving a armored division into a country fast…surprise, you’re invaded! Teleport for small stuff, Mystic Portal chain casting to move a LOT of things…
Summon and control rodents – possibly useful for recon, but preventive health medical techs would learn this
Summon Shadow Beast – provide security for sniper teams, patrol bases, used as ambushes and guards for special access areas of the base
Wards – primarily used by engineers in making bases and MPs in making brigs. Can be set as booby traps while on patrol
Anti-Magic Cloud – great for hitting your objective with, probably used by your demo guys
Create magic scroll – well, if there was a magical arms room…this is what they would issue as ammo…sign for you 13 scrolls of X, your 4 scrolls of Y…after the mission, you turn them back in
Remove Curse – medics
Summon and Control Animals – recon patrols, guard forces and preventive medicine types
Summon Fog – great for patrols
Amulet & possibly Talisman – these would probably be issued items…and accountable, like every other type of equipment. You would sign for it from the magical arms room, just like your scrolls
Calm Storms – Engineers would use it, but the Air Force Weather types would be all over it…it would be banned for combat arms unless they were
Summon and Control Rain & Storm – Combat Arms LEADERS would use this to act as cover for their movements. All missions must suck! Actually, the worse the weather, the less the bad guys expect an attack…
Create Zombie – Medics and leaders to get their KIA to self-extract
Summon and Control Entity, Lesser being – MPs if they were going arrest it, MI if they were going to befriend or interrogate it
Time Hole – Snipers in hide sites, long duration surveillance teams, great for evasion (teach it at SERE school)
Create Golem – Armor crews would use them to help with repairs and Engineers would use them to breach big obstacles or help in construction projects
Sanctum – Engineers for making HQ areas, MI types for their secret squirrel areas and MPs for their interrogation booths
Close Rift – Engineers and Logistics specialists
Id Barrier – Interrogators
Impenetrable Wall of Force – Engineers
Restoration – medics
Dimensional Portal – Logistics types
Teleport: Superior – Logistics
Transformation – MAYBE Medics??

-STS

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

The single spell I believe would make the most impact on any modern military would be the 5th level Sustain, which you surprisingly left off your list.

Only 12 PPE to cast, affects the caster or two others by touch, lasts 24 hours per level, and totally negates one's need for food, water, and breathable air, while reducing the need for sleep to only 2 hours per night. So many logistical issues could be done away with. A mage dedicated solely to casting Sustain using PPE donated by the soldiers themselves could place thousands under the effect each day.

[AmberImmortal]

Magic in the Military...an analysis...

Well, looking at magic from a capability standpoint, there is not a lot that magic can offer that trumps tech in a modern world and it is comparable to late Victorian/steampunk effectiveness.

If you were going to lose a skill program, they would then gain knowledge of a few spells that directly aid their MOS/function in the military. Generally Infantry, Armor, Military Intelligence, Military Police and Combat Engineers would gain the most benefit from magic and a LOT of spells would make their job a lot easier.

The big moneymakers are things like teleport, scry, and other magic rituals and high level spells that offer capabilities for a much lower manpower cost that comparable technological solutions or utility spells that make life easier. The offensive/defensive stuff is generally not comparable in rate of fire or range, and would probably be avoided. The spells I would use as a mystic soldier would be (with the understanding they are working in a team and not playing solo cool guy wizard):

Spoiler:

Agony – a great punishment for UCMJ…better than 45 and 45. Would be used like flogging was…but less…exertion.
Animate and Control Dead – um…mortuary affairs would use this, and if your dead troops can extract themselves without having to carry them, you can retain more firepower and speed on the exfil.
Apparition (Interrogators, Drill Sergeants, First Sergeants!)
Astral Projection (intel gathering and recon)
Call Lightning (good skill for forward observers or guys in close combat when the FPF is too damn slow!)
Calling (last ditch commo plan)
Carpet of Adhesion (to keep targets in the kill zone)
Charismatic Aura (for doing meet and greets with the locals, great for HUMINT)
Compulsion (for bad leaders who have no leadership)
Constrain Being – MP’s if they are guarding some supernatural creatures…
Cure Illness (Medics)
Cure Minor Disorders (good for Medics)
Dispel Magic Barriers – your demo breachers would use this…
Domination (Interrogators, Drill Sergeants, First Sergeants!)
Energy Disruption (just before you enter an objective in an urban environment…turn out the lights, jam comms, shut off sensors)
Energy Field (for doing demo in enclosed areas, like in an urban environment, good for EOD guys too)
Escape (teach this at SERE school!)
Eyes of Thoth (for Intel types on the Objective….no need for terps, on the spot DOCEX)
Float in Air (instead of jumping in)
Fly (everyone can be air assault qualified!)
Fly as the Eagle – better than Fly, so this would be your Jumpmasters 
Globe of silence – good for your unit on patrol (but can mask enemy moving towards you as well) patrol base and those annoying snoring people in the barracks
Heal Wounds (for Medics and anyone who has an open spell)
Horrific Illusion (Interrogators, Drill Sergeants, First Sergeants!)
Impervious to Energy (anyone in combat!)
Impervious to Fire (for first responders and fire fighters)
Invisibility – good for your moving patrol, good for your patrol base…MPs would want a way to negate this
Invulnerability (good for your assault teams, would be used on leaders and pointmen first)
Levitation/Climb (instead of abseiling or mountaineering)
Ley Line Transmission (good for a failsafe commo plan)
Magic Net (good for MPs and for capture/kill operations)
Magic Pigeon (for commo guys)
Mask of Deceit (for high level HUMINT types and deep cover LEOs, CI guys too)
Memory bank (good for data dumps before the mission, reduces time memorizing FRAGOs, Call Signs, Grids, etc.)
Metamorphosis: Animal & Insect & Mist – good for while on patrol…reduces need for a patrol base, and a must for recon teams
Multiple Image (good for actions on the objective to redirect enemy attention)
Mystic Alarm (instead of having to observe every avenue of approach and allows lower security on your patrol base)
Negate Poisons/Toxins (as prophylaxis and great for Medics)
Paralysis:Lesser (to take prisoners or good for medics to keep wounded guys from moving during extraction/treatment)
Purification – VITAL for long duration patrols! Less weight to carry and your patrol can last a LOT longer
Reduce Self (repair techs and recon troops, and would be good for moving large amounts of troops quickly, so loggies will love it)
Repel animals (if it works on insects, this is a PERFECT spell for use in a patrol base while in some god-awful swamp with mosquitoes the size of helicopters)
Seal (good for couriers if you can seal documents, or for transpo guys shipping ammo in conexes or other sensitive items)
Second Sight – MPs, and leaders at every level. Headquarters types would LOVE this so they could get real on the ground info accurately and quickly much more efficiently than radio or video AND it doesn’t take the “sender” any effort to do it, so they can focus on fighting at the same time.
See Aura/Sense Evil (as opposed to an MTBI with a full scope poly, great for HUMINT and CI)
Sleep (anyone would want this in the field when it sucks…two gulps and you get some rack!)
Superhuman speed (recon troops, especially LRS guys)
Superhuman Strength (for engineers…and infantry and tankers, because the engineers are NEVER there to build your defensive positions)
Swim as a fish (for amphibious insertions)
Telekinesis (for unloading trucks and building fortifications, good for loggies and engineers)
Teleport lesser (fast deployment to the AO, wake up, teleport, kill, teleport back, watch your kid’s football game…would reduce family stress and cost a lot less than building bases all over the world)
Time Slip – This would be highly regulated for who could learn it, but it would be useful for most combat leaders when bad decisions cost lives…but slicky boy barracks thieves would LOVE it too.
Tongues – Any HUMINT/SIGINT type and leaders that deal with indigs. Would make war cheaper since no terps are needed.
Trance (for capture/kill operations and for medics for badly wounded troops to buy time for stabilization)
Turn Dead (because Zombies use lots up lots of ammo, and other undead are an actual threat)
Words of Truth – HUMINT/CI and MP types…First Sergeants and Courts Martials Panels
Commune with Spirits – Good for recon and pre mission intel
Exorcism – Engineers would use this to rid a nice base of it’s former inhabitants
Eyes of the Wolf – good for recon troops
Locate – A MUST for tracking patrols and MPs
Curses, any – HUMINT types could use this if they were able to get to a target before they are scheduled for a kill/capture operation
Metamorphosis: Human & Superior – Special Recon and HUMINT/CI and MPs would use it
Negate magic – Breachers and EOD types would use it, some MI types
Oracle – MI types would KILL for this and use it constantly
Sickness – good if you are doing a false flag operation for HUMINT types
Spoil – good for false flag operations and would be used when you are bugging out of a location and don’t want the bad guys to use your chow
Flesh to stone/Stone to flesh – MPs for prisoner transport and medics who transport patients they could not stabilize
Wisps of confusion – used at the same time when you toss in the flash bang grenades
Familiar Link – Great for being on guard duty and for pulling outer security or recon on an objective…
Mute – Good for capture/kills, sentry neutralization, screaming patients (Medics) and rowdy prisoners (MPs)
Circles – used by engineers when making a base
Summon and control canines – good for guard duty on large bases and good for tracking patrols
Speed of the Snail – capture/kill operations, tracking patrols when they see the target and MPs
Water to Wine – Cooks would live and die by this spell
Banishment – Engineers
Control/Enslave Entity – MPs when guarding supernatural forces
Mystic Portal – Logistics guys would LOVE this spell…much easier than planes, trains, ships and trucks. GREAT for moving a armored division into a country fast…surprise, you’re invaded! Teleport for small stuff, Mystic Portal chain casting to move a LOT of things…
Summon and control rodents – possibly useful for recon, but preventive health medical techs would learn this
Summon Shadow Beast – provide security for sniper teams, patrol bases, used as ambushes and guards for special access areas of the base
Wards – primarily used by engineers in making bases and MPs in making brigs. Can be set as booby traps while on patrol
Anti-Magic Cloud – great for hitting your objective with, probably used by your demo guys
Create magic scroll – well, if there was a magical arms room…this is what they would issue as ammo…sign for you 13 scrolls of X, your 4 scrolls of Y…after the mission, you turn them back in
Remove Curse – medics
Summon and Control Animals – recon patrols, guard forces and preventive medicine types
Summon Fog – great for patrols
Amulet & possibly Talisman – these would probably be issued items…and accountable, like every other type of equipment. You would sign for it from the magical arms room, just like your scrolls
Calm Storms – Engineers would use it, but the Air Force Weather types would be all over it…it would be banned for combat arms unless they were
Summon and Control Rain & Storm – Combat Arms LEADERS would use this to act as cover for their movements. All missions must suck! Actually, the worse the weather, the less the bad guys expect an attack…
Create Zombie – Medics and leaders to get their KIA to self-extract
Summon and Control Entity, Lesser being – MPs if they were going arrest it, MI if they were going to befriend or interrogate it
Time Hole – Snipers in hide sites, long duration surveillance teams, great for evasion (teach it at SERE school)
Create Golem – Armor crews would use them to help with repairs and Engineers would use them to breach big obstacles or help in construction projects
Sanctum – Engineers for making HQ areas, MI types for their secret squirrel areas and MPs for their interrogation booths
Close Rift – Engineers and Logistics specialists
Id Barrier – Interrogators
Impenetrable Wall of Force – Engineers
Restoration – medics
Dimensional Portal – Logistics types
Teleport: Superior – Logistics
Transformation – MAYBE Medics??

-STS

Slade, you just inadvertently solved, almost completely, another problem I had with my campaign. You're a rock star.

[slade the sniper]

The single spell I believe would make the most impact on any modern military would be the 5th level Sustain, which you surprisingly left off your list.

Only 12 PPE to cast, affects the caster or two others by touch, lasts 24 hours per level, and totally negates one's need for food, water, and breathable air, while reducing the need for sleep to only 2 hours per night. So many logistical issues could be done away with. A mage dedicated solely to casting Sustain using PPE donated by the soldiers themselves could place thousands under the effect each day.

I agree.

I think I ended up leaving a lot of things off the list. Was talking to the wife and packing to come home at the same time....so typing was about 4th on the list of priorities at the time. Apologies.

-STS

[AmberImmortal]

The single spell I believe would make the most impact on any modern military would be the 5th level Sustain, which you surprisingly left off your list.

Only 12 PPE to cast, affects the caster or two others by touch, lasts 24 hours per level, and totally negates one's need for food, water, and breathable air, while reducing the need for sleep to only 2 hours per night. So many logistical issues could be done away with. A mage dedicated solely to casting Sustain using PPE donated by the soldiers themselves could place thousands under the effect each day.

I agree.

I think I ended up leaving a lot of things off the list. Was talking to the wife and packing to come home at the same time....so typing was about 4th on the list of priorities at the time. Apologies.

-STS

That being said, your list was pretty extensive. One can't really expect you to get everything on the list.

[Sir_Spirit]

If you want to fight a mage you just use a sniper rifle, out ranges all spells.
No need for alien supertech or stuff from Rifts.
If anything magic needs to be buffed up.

[flatline]

If you want to fight a mage you just use a sniper rifle, out ranges all spells.
No need for alien supertech or stuff from Rifts.
If anything magic needs to be buffed up.

Despite having that particular weakness, I disagree that magic needs any more buffing than what RUE has already given it.

--flatline

[Daniel Stoker]

I disagree, some range would be nice... and much like psionics in HU I think Magic needs a much faster rate of recovery of power points.


Daniel Stoker

[say652]

control other, ex-me, ex-pe, healingfactor, energy resistance, energy absorption, teleportation(for escaping the dreaded carpet of adhesion) my answers were based around stuff that increases your bonuses to save or prevents damage in this spirit i forgot create forcefield.

[flatline]

control other, ex-me, ex-pe, healingfactor, energy resistance, energy absorption, teleportation(for escaping the dreaded carpet of adhesion) my answers were based around stuff that increases your bonuses to save or prevents damage in this spirit i forgot create forcefield.

Ha! One of my first HU:revised characters was very similar to what you've described. Create Forcefield, Ex-ME, Ex-PE, and Healing Factor. Saved vs magic or psionics on a 2+ roll and his shields could absorb tremendous damage. He wouldn't be so effective now that HU2 makes creating a forcefield take 2 actions. That probably means you can't even parry with shields anymore. Who thought that was a good idea?

Moving on, teleportation is one of my favorite super powers, but if you want a power to negate Carpet of Adhesion, you might instead want to consider APS:Liquid.

APS:Liquid (immune to physical damage plus fast regeneration) combined with Energy Absorption or Energy Resistance makes for a very difficult target to harm meaningfully. Choosing other powers to maximize magic and psionic saves just makes it even harder.

--flatline

[AmberImmortal]

Any help at all is welcome. I'm still looking for any and all advice on the subject. This thread is a little old but, I'm still concerned with what's said on it. So thanks. I appreciate the help

[Tor]

Although except for the Shadow Beast, HU is lacking in stats for those creatures.

I'm also unclear sometimes on what that 'summon lesser being' (or whatever it was) spell does.

[AmberImmortal]

A lot of spells in HU2 are basically just run off from other palladium games. it's not really as extensive. It's also not very well thought out.in other palladium games magic is very extensive and very well thought out. It seems Heroes just got bare essentials.

[AmberImmortal]

Both rifts and nightbane have quite a few more spells though.