Alter Physical Structure: Sand question

[Daniel Stoker]

I'd think the plasma would be so hot it would then vaporize the glass as soon as it formed.


Daniel Stoker

[Mediapig71]

Actually, I think that would be a cool combat tactic.... I would probably allow it, but I wouldn't make the effect permanent.

For me, it's all about what's fun in the game, not necessarily what would happen in real life.

[Daniel Stoker]

Yeah but sand melts at around 1500 Celsius and Plasma at it's 'cooler' levels is something 1,000,000 Celsius. Now napalm gets to about 1200 Celsius so I'd be more willing to go with that or a 'souped up' version of Napalm then I would Plasma.


Daniel Stoker

[Daniel Stoker]

I'd think the plasma would be so hot it would then vaporize the glass as soon as it formed.

Point missed.

I'm sorry, when you asked 'what would prevent someone from being able to fuse them into glass with a plasma flamethrower' I thought the fact that the heat is so much hotter then the melting point (Funnily enough 666 times hotter at 1,000,000 Celsius) that it would just burn through whatever glass it made.

If you want canon reasons (as your response to MP makes clearer) then no you can't because there are no rules to turn sand to glass, Plasma isn't stated as being able to do so anywhere in the rules, and the APS: Sand power unlike the APS: Glass power which gives it a specific limitation saying that you can shatter it with enough damage doesn't actually say that it can be turned to glass and only says that 'Energy attacks do full damage only when the A.R. is surpassed.'


Daniel Stoker

[Daniel Stoker]

NP, once you said canon answer it made it easier to parse and get you a response based on that.


Daniel Stoker

[Gryphon Chick]

I agree with Dan. There are no rules for it and it is thus not allowed by what is written.

[Reagren Wright]

I'd think the plasma would be so hot it would then vaporize the glass as soon as it formed.

Point missed.

I'm sorry, when you asked 'what would prevent someone from being able to fuse them into glass with a plasma flamethrower' I thought the fact that the heat is so much hotter then the melting point (Funnily enough 666 times hotter at 1,000,000 Celsius) that it would just burn through whatever glass it made.

If you want canon reasons (as your response to MP makes clearer) then no you can't because there are no rules to turn sand to glass, Plasma isn't stated as being able to do so anywhere in the rules, and the APS: Sand power unlike the APS: Glass power which gives it a specific limitation saying that you can shatter it with enough damage doesn't actually say that it can be turned to glass and only says that 'Energy attacks do full damage only when the A.R. is surpassed.'

Daniel Stoker

Makes perfect sense to me. I suppose if you want to go all realistic and technical in your games
as the G.M. you could include some kind of painful transformation. I suppose one could also look
up the "origin source" of that power and find out if anything like that happened to him.

[Iczer]

There are no cannon rules for it. It's just poor form.

Batts

[Slight001]

According to the wikipedia article on him he has been turned to glass but retained mobility... though article doesn't specify how much control/mobility he retains.

[Nightmask]

According to the wikipedia article on him he has been turned to glass but retained mobility... though article doesn't specify how much control/mobility he retains.

Hmmm, I remember him only being turned to glass once and he had zero mobility. The cure was to villainously transfer it someone else if memory serves.

[Dog_O_War]

If a PC turns to sand, what would prevent someone from being able to fuse them into glass with a plasma flamethrower?

I turn to the Experts here as my HU knowlege is very limited. Thanks for you help.

Since the plasma flamethrower is causing damage, that damage is represented by him turning (in part or in whole) to glass. "Full glass" means the APS:Sand character is dead.

If he is somehow immune to energy or heat, then he would not turn to glass.

[say652]

for dramatic effect turning a APS Sand character to glass as means of capturing them is cool but I ampretty sure they could eventually transform back into sand and then human.

[Dog_O_War]

can't kill APS characters by reducing their SDC below zero
All those Characters turn into their natural forms.

You also can't alter the physical structure of an already altered character (ie: an APS character), but no one seemed to want to pay attention that that fact either.

[Nightmask]

can't kill APS characters by reducing their SDC below zero
All those Characters turn into their natural forms.

You also can't alter the physical structure of an already altered character (ie: an APS character), but no one seemed to want to pay attention that that fact either.

You can't use multiple versions of APS together, that doesn't mean you can't alter someone with an APS power active, it doesn't make them immune to alterations. Acid is still going to corrode and eat away at an APS: Metal character for example, they aren't going to be immune to the acid altering them as it dissolves and corrodes them. Someone transformed into sand is going to have vulnerabilities due to that, like their sand nature melting if heated hot enough to melt.

[say652]

i said as a plot device not as a way to kill a character.

[The Beast]

can't kill APS characters by reducing their SDC below zero
All those Characters turn into their natural forms.

Where did you find that at? Only thing I see is under APS: Metal and APS: Stone that says once the SDC is gone damage comes off of HP.

[Dog_O_War]

can't kill APS characters by reducing their SDC below zero
All those Characters turn into their natural forms.

You also can't alter the physical structure of an already altered character (ie: an APS character), but no one seemed to want to pay attention that that fact either.

You can't use multiple versions of APS together, that doesn't mean you can't alter someone with an APS power active, it doesn't make them immune to alterations. Acid is still going to corrode and eat away at an APS: Metal character for example, they aren't going to be immune to the acid altering them as it dissolves and corrodes them. Someone transformed into sand is going to have vulnerabilities due to that, like their sand nature melting if heated hot enough to melt.

There is a subtle difference between turning sand to glass and dissolving metal.

Okay, well, maybe it isn't subtle.

[The Beast]

It's a change in the Heroes GM Guide I know it did not work that way in the Heroes Revised setting though. IT was changed that way since aPS Characters do not get to increase their sdc with other powers.

Ah, ok. I knew the old way as well, and didn't see a change in the new book.

I should have figured it was in the HUGMG though since the change about Invulnerability and particle beam weapons is in there.

[Tor]

Has the Spider-Man villain Sandman ever been turned to glass? I can't think of a time but my memory might be failing me...

Pretty sure in the third flick some of the pumpkin bombs did this to parts of him.

can't kill APS characters by reducing their SDC below zero
All those Characters turn into their natural forms.

It's a change in the Heroes GM Guide I know it did not work that way in the Heroes Revised setting though. IT was changed that way since aPS Characters do not get to increase their sdc with other powers.

Anyone know what page this is on? Would like to read.

[The Beast]

It's in the first paragraph explaining using APS powers in the GM guide...

So in other words...

Spoiler:

It's something that a proper index would help us find...

[The Beast]

can't kill APS characters by reducing their SDC below zero
All those Characters turn into their natural forms.

Uh, you might want to reread that section...

[The Beast]

It's right there on Page 10/11. Those forms that ADD sdc do not cause Switching, those that replace SDC APS (Any inorganic) vs Ice/fire/Force Aura, and Geopowers) come to mind) Do not have a form reversion. It explains that if someone took 500 damage and took copy PS vs APS The Copy PS since it added sdc retains the damage in mortal form, but the APS Character in the same situation reverts unhurt.

No. The first paragraph says quite clearly that damage comes off the altered form's SDC first and then HP. There is nothing there that says once their altered form's SDC is gone they automatically revert to their normal form. There is an optional rule that says they revert, but it's when they lose 80% - 90% of their HP.

[Dog_O_War]

Ok. I see what happened here. Either way, HE STill gets to revert back to normal and get away unscathed if he hasn't sufered hit point damage, or if he doesn't take enough damage to kill him out right.


either way, Turning him into glass won't kill him.... Unless his SDC and HP are turned to zero. ...

That seems subjective; if all the sand the character is made up of represents all the characters' available SDC, then turning it all to glass would not kill the character.

But if all the sand that makes up the character represents the character as a whole, then turning that character full glass would represent death.

That said, what does all the sand the character is made up of represent?

[Tor]

the APS Character in the same situation reverts unhurt.

This makes me wonder, if a character has 2 powers of APS with replacement-SDC, like say a guy with both APS Metal and APS Stone, could they go to Metal form, use up all their SDC, revert to flesh unhurt, then revert to their Stone form with full SDC and battle while in the meantime their APS Metal SDC is regenerating off-screen?

[Stone Gargoyle]

Yes, Tor, any APS SDC replaces that character's normal SDC, which is why when a character returns to normal they have all their SDC again. If one has more than one APS power, each has its own SDC.
Most APS powers do not have Hit Points in addition to the SDC, as both Hit Points and SDC of the normal form is replaced by the APS SDC. This is why in order to affect Hit Points, it is assumed the character has reverted to normal, though the books do not specify and the rules are a bit vague on the issue.

[DtMK]

I'd rule it as possible, real life physics and chemistry proves that enough heat could turn sand to glass. I'd rule it as the APS character with Sand powers could be fused to glass, partially mobile if just a limb were turned, or immobilized if the entire body were fused. I'd then rule to let the healing rate of the APS character be used, possibly at a slower rate, to heal and return the character to normal.

[Tor]

Yes, Tor, any APS SDC replaces that character's normal SDC, which is why when a character returns to normal they have all their SDC again. If one has more than one APS power, each has its own SDC.
Most APS powers do not have Hit Points in addition to the SDC, as both Hit Points and SDC of the normal form is replaced by the APS SDC. This is why in order to affect Hit Points, it is assumed the character has reverted to normal, though the books do not specify and the rules are a bit vague on the issue.

I'd like to think that those 'direct to HP' death blows could do something to stop these monsters. But yeah I'm not sure either.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Yes, Tor, any APS SDC replaces that character's normal SDC, which is why when a character returns to normal they have all their SDC again. If one has more than one APS power, each has its own SDC.
Most APS powers do not have Hit Points in addition to the SDC, as both Hit Points and SDC of the normal form is replaced by the APS SDC. This is why in order to affect Hit Points, it is assumed the character has reverted to normal, though the books do not specify and the rules are a bit vague on the issue.

I'd like to think that those 'direct to HP' death blows could do something to stop these monsters. But yeah I'm not sure either.

Usually direct to HP death blows imply the existence of internal organs which are vulnerable. APS characters do not technically have internal organs in their altered state.

[The Beast]

Yes, Tor, any APS SDC replaces that character's normal SDC, which is why when a character returns to normal they have all their SDC again. If one has more than one APS power, each has its own SDC.
Most APS powers do not have Hit Points in addition to the SDC, as both Hit Points and SDC of the normal form is replaced by the APS SDC. This is why in order to affect Hit Points, it is assumed the character has reverted to normal, though the books do not specify and the rules are a bit vague on the issue.

That's actually an optional rule from the HUGMG.

[Daniel Stoker]

I'd rule it as possible, real life physics and chemistry proves that enough heat could turn sand to glass. I'd rule it as the APS character with Sand powers could be fused to glass, partially mobile if just a limb were turned, or immobilized if the entire body were fused. I'd then rule to let the healing rate of the APS character be used, possibly at a slower rate, to heal and return the character to normal.

Yes, but I'll point out again that if you're looking at 'RL Physics' then the person would be toast as Plasma is 666X hotter then what you need to turn sand into glass.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

APS characters do not technically have internal organs in their altered state.

Are we sure on this point? They may lack fleshy organs but they might have metal livers and rubber spleens.

[Daniel Stoker]

Sure? Why not? But a spleen made of rubber isn't going to be able to do what a spleen made of.. well.. spleen cells can do and doesn't do them any good beyond being organ shaped.


Daniel Stoker