Zapper questions

[Morik]

First question is about the super electrokinesis power.

3. Manipulate Electrical Devices. Could the psychic basically turn off all his opponents weapons powered by e-clips? (or at least to the "safety" position?)
Note: The character does not need to see the devices to manipulate them. He can feel their presence. At double the normal range this would be quite handy.
I'm sure the guys with guns could turn them back to the fire position but it would take an action to do so right?

Second question is about the third skill under the class listing

3. Electrical aura and Radiate Electricity. It says that Damage (variable) and the 01-65% chance of shorting out electronic devices can be applied to anything he touches.
So if he grapples or entangles a limb of a opponent does the damage and chance of shorting out his equipment happen only once, or would you roll the damage and the 01-65% chance every time he maintains his hold on that opponent?
If the answer is yes, I can see wrestling becoming a must for Zapper player characters. (it would fit with the bodybuilding skill)


Third and final question is about the fourth ability under the class.

4. Electricity Absorption. The Zapper can use this ability to drain the energy from the machine, to make it temporarily useless or
to reduce the energy one degree per level of experience.
Does this mean he can either drain it completely in a flash and has the option to drain less hereby not killing the power just merely crippling it's performance? Or does this mean that only a 11th level Zapper can drain a battery to 0%?

My player wants to know if his Zapper can get within 20 feet per level of his character and drain a e-clip in someones gun as a non-lethal way of subduing that opponent. At 4 I.S.P. cost and with the range limitation and the cost of an action....... I'm hard pressed to just say NO to him.

Thanks for the help.

[wyrmraker]

Here's how I would work it:
Manipulate Electrical Devices: This wouldn't work on unshielded eaquipment such as military grade equipment (IIRC, all military equipment is considered Hardened vs EMP and electrical influence)

Electrical aura and Radiate Electricity: This one gets iffy because of the Hardening, but I would allow the 65% chance for direct grappling.

Electricity Absorption: By the book, I would allow a Zapper to drain 8% of an eclip per level at a range of twenty feet. But this would take a focussed attempt.

[Nekira Sudacne]

First question is about the super electrokinesis power.

3. Manipulate Electrical Devices. Could the psychic basically turn off all his opponents weapons powered by e-clips? (or at least to the "safety" position?)
Note: The character does not need to see the devices to manipulate them. He can feel their presence. At double the normal range this would be quite handy.
I'm sure the guys with guns could turn them back to the fire position but it would take an action to do so right?

Yes, they absolutely could manipualte the safety switches, and if their gun has an auto-eject feature they could trigger that too. There's a good reason old fashioned guns with CTF rounds are still a thing in Rifts.

Second question is about the third skill under the class listing

3. Electrical aura and Radiate Electricity. It says that Damage (variable) and the 01-65% chance of shorting out electronic devices can be applied to anything he touches.
So if he grapples or entangles a limb of a opponent does the damage and chance of shorting out his equipment happen only once, or would you roll the damage and the 01-65% chance every time he maintains his hold on that opponent?
If the answer is yes, I can see wrestling becoming a must for Zapper player characters. (it would fit with the bodybuilding skill)

Yes, every new turn that they maintain contact results in a new roll. likewise every turn a burster keeps a wrestling hold on someone they take more damage from their flame aura. same principle.

Third and final question is about the fourth ability under the class.

4. Electricity Absorption. The Zapper can use this ability to drain the energy from the machine, to make it temporarily useless or
to reduce the energy one degree per level of experience.
Does this mean he can either drain it completely in a flash and has the option to drain less hereby not killing the power just merely crippling it's performance? Or does this mean that only a 11th level Zapper can drain a battery to 0%?

My player wants to know if his Zapper can get within 20 feet per level of his character and drain a e-clip in someones gun as a non-lethal way of subduing that opponent. At 4 I.S.P. cost and with the range limitation and the cost of an action....... I'm hard pressed to just say NO to him.

Thanks for the help.

The power can explicitly drain the power generator from a power armor, rendering the glitter boy completely useless. they can grab onto a power line and drain a whole city block dry. why is stopping an e-clip so overpowered?

zapper and burster are classes with exactly one gimmick, compared to mind melters (who can screw with people in hilarious and brutal ways when you think about it--see the mind melters picture in psyscape showing him making a guy burn himself alive. a burster with a CS plasma rifle can mulitply the damage x10 for a 1d6*100 plasma gun after all.

They can do these things because their range of power is compartivly limited, compared to the vast arsenal at any mages command. but that means that, within those gimmicks, they have tricks and abuses that make them just as feared. a high level (11-13) burster, zapper, or mind melter may not be as flashy overall as a high level ley line walker or temporal wizard, but if you mess with them on their terms your just as screwed. and fighting them on their home turf requires the same level of caution and preperation.

[Morik]

Here's how I would work it:

Electricity Absorption: By the book, I would allow a Zapper to drain 8% of an e-clip per level at a range of twenty feet. But this would take a focussed attempt.

The Zapper can use this ability to drain the energy from the machine, to make it temporarily useless or
to reduce the energy one degree per level of experience. You see the "or" right. It seems to me that the Zapper has the option for a all out drain if he wants to at first level and the careful drain get better at as he levels up. The duration can be instantaneous as well.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Manipulate Electrical Devices. Could the psychic basically turn off all his opponents weapons powered by e-clips? (or at least to the "safety" position?)
Note: The character does not need to see the devices to manipulate them. He can feel their presence. At double the normal range this would be quite handy.
I'm sure the guys with guns could turn them back to the fire position but it would take an action to do so right?

It depends if this is a mechanical switch or a electronic switch. A Psi with electrokinesis could "off/on' a electrical switch, even those built into Military Grade weapons. Psi powers are not EMP, or EM influencing of the electronics, thus, EM shielding is useless vs this ability of electrokinesis.

If it is a mechanical switch then a Psi with electrokinesis can not effect the switch.


Second question is about the third skill under the class listing

Electrical aura and Radiate Electricity. It says that Damage (variable) and the 01-65% chance of shorting out electronic devices can be applied to anything he touches.
So if he grapples or entangles a limb of a opponent does the damage and chance of shorting out his equipment happen only once, or would you roll the damage and the 01-65% chance every time he maintains his hold on that opponent?
If the answer is yes, I can see wrestling becoming a must for Zapper player characters. (it would fit with the bodybuilding skill)

The knocking out effect could go ether once per encounter with a zapper or once per touch of the zapper. The damage is 'per touch.'

Bionic limbs might loose the "sense of touch" and "sense of position" signals to the borg due to those 'sensors' being knocked out. Depending on how the GM sees things "for the game"/"for that char".


Third and final question is about the fourth ability under the class.

4. Electricity Absorption. The Zapper can use this ability to drain the energy from the machine, to make it temporarily useless or to reduce the energy one degree per level of experience.
Does this mean he can either drain it completely in a flash and has the option to drain less hereby not killing the power just merely crippling it's performance? Or does this mean that only a 11th level Zapper can drain a battery to 0%?

My player wants to know if his Zapper can get within 20 feet per level of his character and drain a e-clip in someones gun as a non-lethal way of subduing that opponent. At 4 I.S.P. cost and with the range limitation and the cost of an action....... I'm hard pressed to just say NO to him.


"The Zapper can use this ability to drain the energy from the machine, to make it temporarily useless (until recharged), ..."
Electrical energy storage devices can be completely drained, instantly, with one use of this power. Batteries, E-clips, Capacitors, etc...

The rate of 8% per level & 10 min. per level are written for draining a electrical grid or draining a vehicle's power supply.

[Morik]

First question is about the super electrokinesis power.

3. Manipulate Electrical Devices. Could the psychic basically turn off all his opponents weapons powered by e-clips? (or at least to the "safety" position?)
Note: The character does not need to see the devices to manipulate them. He can feel their presence. At double the normal range this would be quite handy.
I'm sure the guys with guns could turn them back to the fire position but it would take an action to do so right?

Yes, they absolutely could manipualte the safety switches, and if their gun has an auto-eject feature they could trigger that too. There's a good reason old fashioned guns with CTF rounds are still a thing in Rifts.

Second question is about the third skill under the class listing

3. Electrical aura and Radiate Electricity. It says that Damage (variable) and the 01-65% chance of shorting out electronic devices can be applied to anything he touches.
So if he grapples or entangles a limb of a opponent does the damage and chance of shorting out his equipment happen only once, or would you roll the damage and the 01-65% chance every time he maintains his hold on that opponent?
If the answer is yes, I can see wrestling becoming a must for Zapper player characters. (it would fit with the bodybuilding skill)

Yes, every new turn that they maintain contact results in a new roll. likewise every turn a burster keeps a wrestling hold on someone they take more damage from their flame aura. same principle.

Third and final question is about the fourth ability under the class.

4. Electricity Absorption. The Zapper can use this ability to drain the energy from the machine, to make it temporarily useless or
to reduce the energy one degree per level of experience.
Does this mean he can either drain it completely in a flash and has the option to drain less hereby not killing the power just merely crippling it's performance? Or does this mean that only a 11th level Zapper can drain a battery to 0%?

My player wants to know if his Zapper can get within 20 feet per level of his character and drain a e-clip in someones gun as a non-lethal way of subduing that opponent. At 4 I.S.P. cost and with the range limitation and the cost of an action....... I'm hard pressed to just say NO to him.

Thanks for the help.

The power can explicitly drain the power generator from a power armor, rendering the glitter boy completely useless. they can grab onto a power line and drain a whole city block dry. why is stopping an e-clip so overpowered? .

A nuclear powered device (like MOST PA) to me would be only reduced in performance for a limited time not completely drained IMO. That is where the 8% per level and 10 minutes per level duration should kick in. But I think I agree with you about smaller devices/batteries/e-clips I think they would would only require the Zapper to get in range and activate the power to drain it dry in one character action.

[Morik]

If it is a mechanical switch then a Psi with electrokinesis can not effect the switch.

So only pump pistols and revlovers would be immune to this right.

[Morik]

The rate of 8% per level & 10 min. per level are written for draining a electrical grid or draining a vehicle's power supply.

Ok that makes sense.

Thanks for the Help all

I think I will have the damage and short out percentage roll happen on each of the Zappers turn to maintain the hold. Or do you think it should happen on his turn AND the opponents turn? A touch is a touch right?

I will have all devices be drained with one action except for vehicles and power grids. That's when the 8% and 10 minutes per level will be applied.

The switches on hidden guns/vibro blades must have more that mechanics involved to be manipulated with electrokinesis. So the only way to manipulate those would be line of sight and telekinesis.

Nice posts guys.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The rate of 8% per level & 10 min. per level are written for draining a electrical grid or draining a vehicle's power supply.

Ok that makes sense.

Thanks for the Help all

I think I will have the damage and short out percentage roll happen on each of the Zappers turn to maintain the hold. Or do you think it should happen on his turn AND the opponents turn? A touch is a touch right?

I will have all devices be drained with one action except for vehicles and power grids. That's when the 8% and 10 minutes per level will be applied.

The switches on hidden guns/vibro blades must have more that mechanics involved to be manipulated with electrokinesis. So the only way to manipulate those would be line of sight and telekinesis.

Nice posts guys.

Hurm.

I think it is actually once on each turn. same principle as thinking about the bursters aura. You have a guy with a fire aura that adds damage to his attacks. he punches you--you take damage. the aura also damages those that attack him--you punch him back, you take damage again.

in a grapple situation you'd still have a turn for each, thus the roll for each.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If it is a mechanical switch then a Psi with electrokinesis can not effect the switch.

So only pump pistols and revolvers would be immune to this right.

If the safety is a electronic switch then the zapper could effect it even though the rest of the weapon have a mechanical action. So "smart guns"/"signature guns" (ones that have an electronics that prevent an unauthorized user from using the weapon) can be turned off or 'safe'ed'.

It all depends on what sort of safety the weapon has. And since most weapon listings do not list this item. GM's decide which weapons do and don't.


As for weapons that do have e-switchs (unless otherwise asserted by the Gm that a "model" or "type" or "batch" has a mechanical switch.): infantry missiles (close and hold to arm),

As for weapons that do not have e-switchs (unless otherwise asserted by the Gm that a "model" or "type" or "batch" has a e-switch.): Firearms Small-arms (using particular words to have a specific meaning).

All others it is up to the GM to decide. This is because small-arms follow the forms of the previous small-arm weapons. There is also a cultural element to the weapon forms/designs.

So what I would say is do your research into modern firearms and decide if the culture of the area/company that they were made in culture of a mech. or e-switch for this small-arms.

CS energy small-arms, I would have them all have e-switchs.

Small-arms are man portable longarms ("rifles" & shotguns) and sidearms ("pistols" & revolvers)

[wyrmraker]

I have to agree with drewkitty's analysis here:

Manipulate Electrical Devices

It depends if this is a mechanical switch or a electronic switch. A Psi with electrokinesis could "off/on' a electrical switch, even those built into Military Grade weapons. Psi powers are not EMP, or EM influencing of the electronics, thus, EM shielding is useless vs this ability of electrokinesis. If it is a mechanical switch then a Psi with electrokinesis can not effect the switch.

EM shielding would be useless because psychic powers are not EM by nature.

I have to disagree with this as a point of order. Electrokinesis may be a psychic power, but manipulating electricity always falls under the E-M spectrum, thus shielding could be effective against it.

[wyrmraker]

I have to disagree with this as a point of order. Electrokinesis may be a psychic power, but manipulating electricity always falls under the E-M spectrum, thus shielding could be effective against it.

Fair enough. Here's why I disagree:

The effect of the power is electrical in nature. But the actual power itself is psychic.

To use an analogy, it's rather like the spell Negate Mechanics:

Against a computer, the spell can momentarily lock it up. Data is not erased nor does the monitor blink out, it just won't respond for 15 seconds.

The effect of the spell is electrical in nature, but the actual 'energy' that drives it is magic. Effectively the same thing with psychic telemechanics the way I see it.

I can see your point. It pretty much comes down to however a GM rules it then, due to the vagueness of the physics of Rifts.

[boxee]

If you start the whole EM thing you run into the problem of making the class ability totally useless. Why would you not EM shield everything in a super science setting? See where this is going?

[drewkitty ~..~]

I can see your point. It pretty much comes down to however a GM rules it then, due to the vagueness of the physics of Rifts.

What vagueness are you talking about? *mix of curiosity and a bit of sardonicism*

I am finding your position to be not what the PB rules about Psionics say about effecting things. Psionics are not EM fields, they are mystical powers of the mind.

[wyrmraker]

I can see your point. It pretty much comes down to however a GM rules it then, due to the vagueness of the physics of Rifts.

What vagueness are you talking about? *mix of curiosity and a bit of sardonicism*

I am finding your position to be not what the PB rules about Psionics say about effecting things. Psionics are not EM fields, they are mystical powers of the mind.

Psionics may be mystic powers of the mind, but they affect the physics of the world. The spell Call Lightning is a good counterpoint. The standard scientific physics would either allow the lightning to fry the interior electronics, or it should have no effect whatsoever because it's a Farraday Cage that provides a path for the electricity to flow out of into the ground (for PAs standing on the ground).

Call Lightning is a mystical spell. Therefore it follows that if Call Lightning can't effect hardened tech in such a manner, neither should psionics that produce electricity-manipulating effects.

The minor superpower Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse does not affect robots, powered armor, bionics, or cybernetics. The assumed reason for this is because these items are usually hardened against EMP effects (it's most likely that way to preevent an instant win scenario, but still).

I can't recall where I saw it, but I could've sworn I saw that all Rifts military-grade equipment was considered to be hardened against EMP. Therefore it follows that such manipulations could follow similar rules interpretations.

[Nightmask]

I can see your point. It pretty much comes down to however a GM rules it then, due to the vagueness of the physics of Rifts.

What vagueness are you talking about? *mix of curiosity and a bit of sardonicism*

I am finding your position to be not what the PB rules about Psionics say about effecting things. Psionics are not EM fields, they are mystical powers of the mind.

Psionics may be mystic powers of the mind, but they affect the physics of the world. The spell Call Lightning is a good counterpoint. The standard scientific physics would either allow the lightning to fry the interior electronics, or it should have no effect whatsoever because it's a Farraday Cage that provides a path for the electricity to flow out of into the ground (for PAs standing on the ground).

Call Lightning is a mystical spell. Therefore it follows that if Call Lightning can't effect hardened tech in such a manner, neither should psionics that produce electricity-manipulating effects.

The minor superpower Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse does not affect robots, powered armor, bionics, or cybernetics. The assumed reason for this is because these items are usually hardened against EMP effects (it's most likely that way to preevent an instant win scenario, but still).

I can't recall where I saw it, but I could've sworn I saw that all Rifts military-grade equipment was considered to be hardened against EMP. Therefore it follows that such manipulations could follow similar rules interpretations.

No, it doesn't actually follow at all that hardened circuitry would be immune to electrokinesis, they're completely unrelated items. Protection from EMP simply means the electronics won't be subjected to overload and burning out from an electromagnetic pulse, it's going to do absolutely nothing against a psionic (or magical) power that manipulates electricity (including protect against psionic-induced surges). Only in extreme cases (and hardened circuitry isn't one of them) will you ever find technology with defenses against psionic powers like electrokinesis or telemechanics and that's going to be from societies that are highly psionic in nature (like the Mechanoids). Otherwise your out of luck.

[wyrmraker]

I can see your point. It pretty much comes down to however a GM rules it then, due to the vagueness of the physics of Rifts.

What vagueness are you talking about? *mix of curiosity and a bit of sardonicism*

I am finding your position to be not what the PB rules about Psionics say about effecting things. Psionics are not EM fields, they are mystical powers of the mind.

Psionics may be mystic powers of the mind, but they affect the physics of the world. The spell Call Lightning is a good counterpoint. The standard scientific physics would either allow the lightning to fry the interior electronics, or it should have no effect whatsoever because it's a Farraday Cage that provides a path for the electricity to flow out of into the ground (for PAs standing on the ground).

Call Lightning is a mystical spell. Therefore it follows that if Call Lightning can't effect hardened tech in such a manner, neither should psionics that produce electricity-manipulating effects.

The minor superpower Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse does not affect robots, powered armor, bionics, or cybernetics. The assumed reason for this is because these items are usually hardened against EMP effects (it's most likely that way to preevent an instant win scenario, but still).

I can't recall where I saw it, but I could've sworn I saw that all Rifts military-grade equipment was considered to be hardened against EMP. Therefore it follows that such manipulations could follow similar rules interpretations.

No, it doesn't actually follow at all that hardened circuitry would be immune to electrokinesis, they're completely unrelated items. Protection from EMP simply means the electronics won't be subjected to overload and burning out from an electromagnetic pulse, it's going to do absolutely nothing against a psionic (or magical) power that manipulates electricity (including protect against psionic-induced surges). Only in extreme cases (and hardened circuitry isn't one of them) will you ever find technology with defenses against psionic powers like electrokinesis or telemechanics and that's going to be from societies that are highly psionic in nature (like the Mechanoids). Otherwise your out of luck.

I am going to have to disagree with that, insofar as physics go. An EMP generates electricity along conductive metals. In an EMP attack, if you are exposed to it the keys in your pocket will heat up due to them acting as low-powered generators. Transformers and solenoids require a controlled form of EMP in order to function.
"The major effect of a large EMP is to induce high currents and voltages in electrical systems, damaging them or disrupting their function. Nuclear EMP weapons are designed to maximise such effects, and are capable of destroying susceptible electronic equipment over a wide area. An indirect effect can be electrical fires caused by the high level of overload.
Lightning is also capable of destroying objects directly, typically through the heating effect of the current. For example composite aircraft structures can be weakened sufficiently to fail entirely, and design measures must be taken to enable them to survive lightning strikes.
Besides giving people an unpleasant shock, ESD events can also cause fuel-vapour explosions or damage electronic circuitry by injecting a high-voltage pulse. For this reason, when refuelling an aircraft the fuel nozzle is always connected to the aircraft to discharge any static before refuelling begins.

Hardening is less a defense against psychic powers than it is a defense against electrical manipulation, which is the very definition of Electrokinesis. Therefore it logically follows that hardening could be construed as a defense against electrokinesis. If it isn't, then magical lightning should be able to bypass the defenses of conductive materials. Since most powered armors and all robots have exposed sensors for input, then that is a vulnerability that leads directly to the electronics. Energy weapons have less shielding, since their energy emitters are exposed by necessity, thus making them vulnerable to electricity, which includes both magical lightning and electrokinesis.

But the two energies are not treated equally as such, even though they essentially use the same energy output.

[Nightmask]

I can see your point. It pretty much comes down to however a GM rules it then, due to the vagueness of the physics of Rifts.

What vagueness are you talking about? *mix of curiosity and a bit of sardonicism*

I am finding your position to be not what the PB rules about Psionics say about effecting things. Psionics are not EM fields, they are mystical powers of the mind.

Psionics may be mystic powers of the mind, but they affect the physics of the world. The spell Call Lightning is a good counterpoint. The standard scientific physics would either allow the lightning to fry the interior electronics, or it should have no effect whatsoever because it's a Farraday Cage that provides a path for the electricity to flow out of into the ground (for PAs standing on the ground).

Call Lightning is a mystical spell. Therefore it follows that if Call Lightning can't effect hardened tech in such a manner, neither should psionics that produce electricity-manipulating effects.

The minor superpower Energy Expulsion: Electromagnetic Pulse does not affect robots, powered armor, bionics, or cybernetics. The assumed reason for this is because these items are usually hardened against EMP effects (it's most likely that way to preevent an instant win scenario, but still).

I can't recall where I saw it, but I could've sworn I saw that all Rifts military-grade equipment was considered to be hardened against EMP. Therefore it follows that such manipulations could follow similar rules interpretations.

No, it doesn't actually follow at all that hardened circuitry would be immune to electrokinesis, they're completely unrelated items. Protection from EMP simply means the electronics won't be subjected to overload and burning out from an electromagnetic pulse, it's going to do absolutely nothing against a psionic (or magical) power that manipulates electricity (including protect against psionic-induced surges). Only in extreme cases (and hardened circuitry isn't one of them) will you ever find technology with defenses against psionic powers like electrokinesis or telemechanics and that's going to be from societies that are highly psionic in nature (like the Mechanoids). Otherwise your out of luck.

I am going to have to disagree with that, insofar as physics go. An EMP generates electricity along conductive metals. In an EMP attack, if you are exposed to it the keys in your pocket will heat up due to them acting as low-powered generators. Transformers and solenoids require a controlled form of EMP in order to function.
"The major effect of a large EMP is to induce high currents and voltages in electrical systems, damaging them or disrupting their function. Nuclear EMP weapons are designed to maximise such effects, and are capable of destroying susceptible electronic equipment over a wide area. An indirect effect can be electrical fires caused by the high level of overload.
Lightning is also capable of destroying objects directly, typically through the heating effect of the current. For example composite aircraft structures can be weakened sufficiently to fail entirely, and design measures must be taken to enable them to survive lightning strikes.
Besides giving people an unpleasant shock, ESD events can also cause fuel-vapour explosions or damage electronic circuitry by injecting a high-voltage pulse. For this reason, when refuelling an aircraft the fuel nozzle is always connected to the aircraft to discharge any static before refuelling begins.

Hardening is less a defense against psychic powers than it is a defense against electrical manipulation, which is the very definition of Electrokinesis. Therefore it logically follows that hardening could be construed as a defense against electrokinesis. If it isn't, then magical lightning should be able to bypass the defenses of conductive materials. Since most powered armors and all robots have exposed sensors for input, then that is a vulnerability that leads directly to the electronics. Energy weapons have less shielding, since their energy emitters are exposed by necessity, thus making them vulnerable to electricity, which includes both magical lightning and electrokinesis.

But the two energies are not treated equally as such, even though they essentially use the same energy output.

Hardening isn't a defense at all against electrical manipulation, it's only a defense against the surge caused in electrical circuitry from an EMP. It's not going to have any ability to stop a psionic power that directly manipulates electrons like electrokinesis does. So no it doesn't logically follow at all that hardening protects against electrokinesis as the basic premise is flawed. The person using electrokinesis can reach in and decide to prevent the flow of electrons through a switch and hardening isn't going to do anything to stop that from happening.

Magical lightning is also an unrelated event and in the end nothing more than a magically created surge of electrons, there's no reason that the electrons being created to simulate a normal lightning strike would be any more able to bypass protections against lightning than normal lightning can.

[wyrmraker]

What is a lightning bolt spell but a gathering and focussing of electrons in the air? Except that magic is never defined, because it's magic. It's like trying to claim there's a difference in MD flames cause by a Fireball spell, a flamethrower, and pyrokinesis.

Electromagnetic hardening means the control of the flow of electricity within an object. Since electrokinesis affects that flow, that means that hardening could possibly, theoretically work. It would come down to a GM's call, based on how much 'realism' the GM wants in their game.

[Nightmask]

What is a lightning bolt spell but a gathering and focussing of electrons in the air? Except that magic is never defined, because it's magic. It's like trying to claim there's a difference in MD flames cause by a Fireball spell, a flamethrower, and pyrokinesis.

Electromagnetic hardening means the control of the flow of electricity within an object. Since electrokinesis affects that flow, that means that hardening could possibly, theoretically work. It would come down to a GM's call, based on how much 'realism' the GM wants in their game.

No wyrmraker, that's not what hardening of the circuits means at all, it has absolutely nothing to do with controlling the flow of electricity in an object. Your definition doesn't even remotely match either the RL or the book description (which is pretty much the same thing). Electromagnetic hardening no more means having control over the flow of electricity in an object than adding rubber insulation to the exterior of something means having control over the flow of electricity in an object. So hardening is no more going to protect against psionic powers like Electrokinesis than putting on a rain slicker would.

[wyrmraker]

Electromagnetic Hardening
Definition: (Department Of Defense) Action taken to protect personnel, facilities, and/or equipment by filtering, attenuating, grounding, bonding, and/or shielding against undesirable effects of electromagnetic energy.

I would say that electrokinesis falls into that category in a campaign setting with psionics and magic. Electrokinesis is the control of electromagnetic energy, therefore falls under the military definition of Undesirable Effects.

As far as real life EM Hardening, it takes quite a lot more than some rubber sheeting to keep electronics from frying when every circuit in the board is lighting up with electricity.

[Nightmask]

Electromagnetic Hardening
Definition: (Department Of Defense) Action taken to protect personnel, facilities, and/or equipment by filtering, attenuating, grounding, bonding, and/or shielding against undesirable effects of electromagnetic energy.

I would say that electrokinesis falls into that category in a campaign setting with psionics and magic. Electrokinesis is the control of electromagnetic energy, therefore falls under the military definition of Undesirable Effects.

As far as real life EM Hardening, it takes quite a lot more than some rubber sheeting to keep electronics from frying when every circuit in the board is lighting up with electricity.

Electrokinesis is the control of electricity, it's not actually electromagnetic energy. Shielding against EMP isn't shielding against things that lie outside the electromagnetic spectrum and directly control energy like psionics. Shielding against EMP is no more going to do anything to block electrokinesis than it can block telemechanics (which can reprogram a computer in a power armor or vehicle, i.e. manipulate electricity) or telemechanic possession of a device (again one takes over and starts controlling things with psionics). We know that shielding from EMP has zero impact on blocking psionics affecting their systems because the text are quite clear about these powers being able to influence advanced devices from robots to power armor and if EMP shielding could stop electrokinesis it would stop all the machine controlling powers too and it clearly doesn't.

The only reason a GM would actually rule that EMP hardening blocks psionics would be to screw with the PC with said powers and render them worthless since nearly everything a PC group goes up against tech-wise is shielded, giving technology a massive advantage it doesn't and shouldn't have over psionics. That IS a massive and unwarranted bonus power to be handing tech-users, as tech doesn't and shouldn't have any kind of protection like that, not without explicit anti-psionic safeguards rather than as a bonus from something that's completely unrelated to psionics.

[wyrmraker]

I am seeing that analogy that you're drawing there. You do make an excellent point with the example of Telemechanics.

However, the analogy is flawed in certain respects. The first is that electricity and the EM spectrum are interrelated. To quote:
"Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric charge. Electricity gives a wide variety of well-known effects, such as lightning, static electricity, electromagnetic induction and the flow of electrical current. In addition, electricity permits the creation and reception of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves."

The example of Telemechanics is a reasonable example of what psionically generated ability can do. However since the actual effects of Telemechanics lie in the undefined (the power itself claims it's "a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy that only works on machines"), it is as mysterious as actual magic. Electrokinesis, on the other hand, has it's effects in very well-defined areas of physics, and therefore should fall under certain specific rules.

Granted, PB is extremely well-known for putting the Rule of Cool over the Rule of Basically-Researched Physics when it comes to their power descriptions. But any GM with a good grounding in the sciences can make a lot of disputation among the descriptions.

[kaid]

This is one reason as much as I like the concept of the zapper I would not use one in a rifts setting. To many core abilities left to the GM's mercy. It also does not help that their damage is so weak overall in addition to it being way to easy to just say none of their non damaging powers work on anything you would want to use them on because of EMP hardening.

[wyrmraker]

As an aside, I would like to see Palladium cough up a reverse-conversion book. One that definitively converts stuff from Rifts to other settings. If the system is to be truly Megaversal, this would be a very awesome thing.

[Nightmask]

I am seeing that analogy that you're drawing there. You do make an excellent point with the example of Telemechanics.

However, the analogy is flawed in certain respects. The first is that electricity and the EM spectrum are interrelated. To quote:
"Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric charge. Electricity gives a wide variety of well-known effects, such as lightning, static electricity, electromagnetic induction and the flow of electrical current. In addition, electricity permits the creation and reception of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves."

The example of Telemechanics is a reasonable example of what psionically generated ability can do. However since the actual effects of Telemechanics lie in the undefined (the power itself claims it's "a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy that only works on machines"), it is as mysterious as actual magic. Electrokinesis, on the other hand, has it's effects in very well-defined areas of physics, and therefore should fall under certain specific rules.

Granted, PB is extremely well-known for putting the Rule of Cool over the Rule of Basically-Researched Physics when it comes to their power descriptions. But any GM with a good grounding in the sciences can make a lot of disputation among the descriptions.

I'm not seeing how you think electrokinesis lays within the boundaries of physics when you're reaching out with mysterious mental powers to take direct control over electrons flowing within an electronic device and by pure will and desire shape them to do your bidding. There is nothing to support the idea of something built to block a very well understood part of physics to block something totally outside the bounds of physics, psychic energy is not what EMP protection is built to block it's built to block the very understood part of the EM spectrum that causes electrical surges in electronics. Psychic energy is going to go right through and ignore EMP protection because it's not EMP.

[wyrmraker]

I am seeing that analogy that you're drawing there. You do make an excellent point with the example of Telemechanics.

However, the analogy is flawed in certain respects. The first is that electricity and the EM spectrum are interrelated. To quote:
"Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric charge. Electricity gives a wide variety of well-known effects, such as lightning, static electricity, electromagnetic induction and the flow of electrical current. In addition, electricity permits the creation and reception of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves."

The example of Telemechanics is a reasonable example of what psionically generated ability can do. However since the actual effects of Telemechanics lie in the undefined (the power itself claims it's "a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy that only works on machines"), it is as mysterious as actual magic. Electrokinesis, on the other hand, has it's effects in very well-defined areas of physics, and therefore should fall under certain specific rules.

Granted, PB is extremely well-known for putting the Rule of Cool over the Rule of Basically-Researched Physics when it comes to their power descriptions. But any GM with a good grounding in the sciences can make a lot of disputation among the descriptions.

I'm not seeing how you think electrokinesis lays within the boundaries of physics when you're reaching out with mysterious mental powers to take direct control over electrons flowing within an electronic device and by pure will and desire shape them to do your bidding. There is nothing to support the idea of something built to block a very well understood part of physics to block something totally outside the bounds of physics, psychic energy is not what EMP protection is built to block it's built to block the very understood part of the EM spectrum that causes electrical surges in electronics. Psychic energy is going to go right through and ignore EMP protection because it's not EMP.

I see where you've gone with this, and must still disagree. Psychic energy may be a mysterious force, but the end result of Electrokinesis still lies in the realms of physics, much as Pyrokinesis does. The confusion is in claiming that since it's psychic energy, it must be special in some way. Much like the difference between a Fireball spell, a MD flamethrower, and Pyrokinesis. All of them have the same results against someone who is Impervious to Fire. It doesn't matter the source, only the output.

[Nightmask]

I am seeing that analogy that you're drawing there. You do make an excellent point with the example of Telemechanics.

However, the analogy is flawed in certain respects. The first is that electricity and the EM spectrum are interrelated. To quote:
"Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric charge. Electricity gives a wide variety of well-known effects, such as lightning, static electricity, electromagnetic induction and the flow of electrical current. In addition, electricity permits the creation and reception of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves."

The example of Telemechanics is a reasonable example of what psionically generated ability can do. However since the actual effects of Telemechanics lie in the undefined (the power itself claims it's "a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy that only works on machines"), it is as mysterious as actual magic. Electrokinesis, on the other hand, has it's effects in very well-defined areas of physics, and therefore should fall under certain specific rules.

Granted, PB is extremely well-known for putting the Rule of Cool over the Rule of Basically-Researched Physics when it comes to their power descriptions. But any GM with a good grounding in the sciences can make a lot of disputation among the descriptions.

I'm not seeing how you think electrokinesis lays within the boundaries of physics when you're reaching out with mysterious mental powers to take direct control over electrons flowing within an electronic device and by pure will and desire shape them to do your bidding. There is nothing to support the idea of something built to block a very well understood part of physics to block something totally outside the bounds of physics, psychic energy is not what EMP protection is built to block it's built to block the very understood part of the EM spectrum that causes electrical surges in electronics. Psychic energy is going to go right through and ignore EMP protection because it's not EMP.

I see where you've gone with this, and must still disagree. Psychic energy may be a mysterious force, but the end result of Electrokinesis still lies in the realms of physics, much as Pyrokinesis does. The confusion is in claiming that since it's psychic energy, it must be special in some way. Much like the difference between a Fireball spell, a MD flamethrower, and Pyrokinesis. All of them have the same results against someone who is Impervious to Fire. It doesn't matter the source, only the output.

You're going to have to explain how you think reaching out with your mind to take control over a bunch of electrons and force them to do your bidding fits inside the realm of physics, and the results of electrokinesis taking direct control over said electrons is not even remotely the same thing as pyrokinesis creating a fire to hit someone with, nor for that matter is it even remotely the same thing as protecting something against a power surge by screening out surge-inducing EMP. The person making a fireball whether by magic or psionics or technology it's still fire, so when it hits safeguards against fire it's affected. The person reaching into something psionically to take direct control over the electrons within it is engaging in something that is completely unrelated to the nature and purpose of EMP shielding.

As politely as I can put it, you do understand what EMP shielding does right, and what EMP for that matter does? Hardened circuits are intended to handle some surge while simultaneously having a screen that prevents the harmful surge-inducing energy from entering into it. That's all. Said screen is no more capable of preventing a psychic power from affecting those electrons than a screen against radiowaves will block telepathy, because it's simply not capable of it. The EMP shielding would work against electrokinesis creating a lightning strike on the object because you're using an attack that the shielding was meant for, it's not like it's even there though when you're psychically reaching out to influence the electrons directly.

[wyrmraker]

I am seeing that analogy that you're drawing there. You do make an excellent point with the example of Telemechanics.

However, the analogy is flawed in certain respects. The first is that electricity and the EM spectrum are interrelated. To quote:
"Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric charge. Electricity gives a wide variety of well-known effects, such as lightning, static electricity, electromagnetic induction and the flow of electrical current. In addition, electricity permits the creation and reception of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves."

The example of Telemechanics is a reasonable example of what psionically generated ability can do. However since the actual effects of Telemechanics lie in the undefined (the power itself claims it's "a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy that only works on machines"), it is as mysterious as actual magic. Electrokinesis, on the other hand, has it's effects in very well-defined areas of physics, and therefore should fall under certain specific rules.

Granted, PB is extremely well-known for putting the Rule of Cool over the Rule of Basically-Researched Physics when it comes to their power descriptions. But any GM with a good grounding in the sciences can make a lot of disputation among the descriptions.

I'm not seeing how you think electrokinesis lays within the boundaries of physics when you're reaching out with mysterious mental powers to take direct control over electrons flowing within an electronic device and by pure will and desire shape them to do your bidding. There is nothing to support the idea of something built to block a very well understood part of physics to block something totally outside the bounds of physics, psychic energy is not what EMP protection is built to block it's built to block the very understood part of the EM spectrum that causes electrical surges in electronics. Psychic energy is going to go right through and ignore EMP protection because it's not EMP.

I see where you've gone with this, and must still disagree. Psychic energy may be a mysterious force, but the end result of Electrokinesis still lies in the realms of physics, much as Pyrokinesis does. The confusion is in claiming that since it's psychic energy, it must be special in some way. Much like the difference between a Fireball spell, a MD flamethrower, and Pyrokinesis. All of them have the same results against someone who is Impervious to Fire. It doesn't matter the source, only the output.

You're going to have to explain how you think reaching out with your mind to take control over a bunch of electrons and force them to do your bidding fits inside the realm of physics, and the results of electrokinesis taking direct control over said electrons is not even remotely the same thing as pyrokinesis creating a fire to hit someone with, nor for that matter is it even remotely the same thing as protecting something against a power surge by screening out surge-inducing EMP. The person making a fireball whether by magic or psionics or technology it's still fire, so when it hits safeguards against fire it's affected. The person reaching into something psionically to take direct control over the electrons within it is engaging in something that is completely unrelated to the nature and purpose of EMP shielding.

As politely as I can put it, you do understand what EMP shielding does right, and what EMP for that matter does? Hardened circuits are intended to handle some surge while simultaneously having a screen that prevents the harmful surge-inducing energy from entering into it. That's all. Said screen is no more capable of preventing a psychic power from affecting those electrons than a screen against radiowaves will block telepathy, because it's simply not capable of it. The EMP shielding would work against electrokinesis creating a lightning strike on the object because you're using an attack that the shielding was meant for, it's not like it's even there though when you're psychically reaching out to influence the electrons directly.

Mentally taking over a bunch of electrons in a machine should be no different than mystically gathering electrons from the air. You are still confusion source with output, insofar as power go.

And yes, I have worked with EMP-shielded equipment in the past in the military. I know *precisely* how they function, how they are used, and how they are assembled.

[Nightmask]

I am seeing that analogy that you're drawing there. You do make an excellent point with the example of Telemechanics.

However, the analogy is flawed in certain respects. The first is that electricity and the EM spectrum are interrelated. To quote:
"Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric charge. Electricity gives a wide variety of well-known effects, such as lightning, static electricity, electromagnetic induction and the flow of electrical current. In addition, electricity permits the creation and reception of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves."

The example of Telemechanics is a reasonable example of what psionically generated ability can do. However since the actual effects of Telemechanics lie in the undefined (the power itself claims it's "a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy that only works on machines"), it is as mysterious as actual magic. Electrokinesis, on the other hand, has it's effects in very well-defined areas of physics, and therefore should fall under certain specific rules.

Granted, PB is extremely well-known for putting the Rule of Cool over the Rule of Basically-Researched Physics when it comes to their power descriptions. But any GM with a good grounding in the sciences can make a lot of disputation among the descriptions.

I'm not seeing how you think electrokinesis lays within the boundaries of physics when you're reaching out with mysterious mental powers to take direct control over electrons flowing within an electronic device and by pure will and desire shape them to do your bidding. There is nothing to support the idea of something built to block a very well understood part of physics to block something totally outside the bounds of physics, psychic energy is not what EMP protection is built to block it's built to block the very understood part of the EM spectrum that causes electrical surges in electronics. Psychic energy is going to go right through and ignore EMP protection because it's not EMP.

I see where you've gone with this, and must still disagree. Psychic energy may be a mysterious force, but the end result of Electrokinesis still lies in the realms of physics, much as Pyrokinesis does. The confusion is in claiming that since it's psychic energy, it must be special in some way. Much like the difference between a Fireball spell, a MD flamethrower, and Pyrokinesis. All of them have the same results against someone who is Impervious to Fire. It doesn't matter the source, only the output.

You're going to have to explain how you think reaching out with your mind to take control over a bunch of electrons and force them to do your bidding fits inside the realm of physics, and the results of electrokinesis taking direct control over said electrons is not even remotely the same thing as pyrokinesis creating a fire to hit someone with, nor for that matter is it even remotely the same thing as protecting something against a power surge by screening out surge-inducing EMP. The person making a fireball whether by magic or psionics or technology it's still fire, so when it hits safeguards against fire it's affected. The person reaching into something psionically to take direct control over the electrons within it is engaging in something that is completely unrelated to the nature and purpose of EMP shielding.

As politely as I can put it, you do understand what EMP shielding does right, and what EMP for that matter does? Hardened circuits are intended to handle some surge while simultaneously having a screen that prevents the harmful surge-inducing energy from entering into it. That's all. Said screen is no more capable of preventing a psychic power from affecting those electrons than a screen against radiowaves will block telepathy, because it's simply not capable of it. The EMP shielding would work against electrokinesis creating a lightning strike on the object because you're using an attack that the shielding was meant for, it's not like it's even there though when you're psychically reaching out to influence the electrons directly.

Mentally taking over a bunch of electrons in a machine should be no different than mystically gathering electrons from the air. You are still confusion source with output, insofar as power go.

And yes, I have worked with EMP-shielded equipment in the past in the military. I know *precisely* how they function, how they are used, and how they are assembled.

That 'should be' is where you're in error, as they aren't the same thing and no I'm not confusing source with output you're confusing protection from a very limited item as having a far broader range than it actually has.

If you've that much experience with EMP-shielding then you shouldn't be confusing a psionic ability to control electricity with a form of protection meant to prevent EMP-induced power surges in electronics. They're completely unrelated, EMP-shielding has nothing about it that would block psionic energy and manipulation of the electrons in a circuit. As I already pointed out EMP-shielding is like putting up a screen that blocks radio waves, said screen isn't going to block telepathy because telepathy isn't radio waves, if the screen is transparent it won't block light either even though light is also in the EM spectrum because it requires something else to block light. An EMP-shield is designed to block EMP, it's not designed to block psionics and if you can't block psionics you can't stop electrokinesis from manipulating your electrical systems. It's just that simple.

[wyrmraker]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this, I think. We're not going to be shifting each others' views. Fair enough

[Akashic Soldier]

Niki nailed it.

The Zapper's ability to manipulate electricity is not an electromagnetic pulse. It is psychic (willpower manipulating the natural laws of the megaverse). They may be used to create a limited EMP and in such an instance the weapon in question would be unphased. However, the Zappers ability to manipulate energy can be used on many different levels. Technically the Zapper can cause the fuses in the pistol to overload in such a way that when the E-Clip is opened up it spells their name.

Lets be perfectly honest, a lot of people are not going to like the fact that the zapper has godlike potential in a world ruled by electricity but they do the same way a nega-psychic has an edge over a practitioner of magic.

If they can drain the nuclear reactor in a Glitter Boy, they can drain the power out of a an E-Clip. I'd also question if E-Clips are EMP proof. I remember reading that they're notoriooualy fragile and tempremental. So even if the gun was EMP proof the Zapper has enough finese and control to bypass the firearm and affect the clip itself directly.

Heck, with the right know how (skills) they might even be able to reprogram neural intelligences without equipment. The ability to manipulated electrical energy is one of the most powerful abilities in the megaverse (when used intelligently).

I'd encourage your player (even award experience for the creative use of a power). However, I'd also have your major antagonists learn and adjust their strategies accordingly. "You might've bested us earlier Zapper but let's see how you fare against our new bio-weapons!"

[Morik]

Wyrmraker is obviously the minority on the issue. The Zapper should feel powerful/helpful in certain situations.( as players we all do) I would argue he could get past emp shielding simply because his psychic energy is AMPLIFYING the existing potential electrical energy in the device beyond it's specific capacity. All without it blowing up. Amazing! Wow! Must be some short of mystical mind abilities.

My goal is to have my player feel like his choice in P.C.C. or R.C.C. or O.C.C. never ruins his (or my) experience in the game. Telling the Zapper his abilities are useless cause "all new/modern equipment is EMP shielded against such incursions" sounds like a douche bag move made to bully that player.

I may ask you why the Zapper evolution/mutation would even progress into a statistical portion of the populace if it wasn't beneficial to the subjects who manifested the new avenues of survival?

The answer is because they can manifest an aura of electrical doom. They have hyper telekinetic attacks and manipulative powers. They can short circuit your brain if close enough. If all else fails then ,yes. They can even drain the power source of your modern equipment dry.

[Tor]

Also kinda scary: I'm pretty sure both Neural maces and Vibro-blades have on/off switches for safety reasons, so couldn't a zapper turn those off too?

Yes, they absolutely could manipualte the safety switches, and if their gun has an auto-eject feature they could trigger that too. There's a good reason old fashioned guns with CTF rounds are still a thing in Rifts.

Any example of guns with auto-eject? Can't recall it being specified for or against.

The power can explicitly drain the power generator from a power armor, rendering the glitter boy completely useless.

Bit confused about this, I thought GBs had a nuclear power source, meaning that there is continual power output, unlike say, something battery-powered like a Chipwell.

a burster with a CS plasma rifle can mulitply the damage x10 for a 1d6*100 plasma gun after all.

Has there been clarification if Fuel Flame works on Plasma? Even if it did, a gun blast is pretty fast, I think there should at least be some kind of initiative or targetting roll to see if a psychic can target the gunfire before it impacts an enemy. It's not like a wall of flame which sits there for a while giving you time to target it. Although... they probably might be able to use it on their own auras... do you think that would enhance the MDC protection as well as the MD it inflicts?

Why would you not EM shield everything in a super science setting? See where this is going?

Expense, you think Chipwell shields all it's things?

Having power armor immune to electromagnetic pulses from nukes is nice, but if you're equipping the militia of a village that probably won't have nukes set off near it, better 10 guardians in PA without EM shielding to fight off roving Brodkil than 1 guardian with EM shielding in case the CS happens to want to do some testing nearby which coincidentally is the same day the Brodkil think it would be fun to invade.

Psionics may be mystic powers of the mind, but they affect the physics of the world. The spell Call Lightning is a good counterpoint. The standard scientific physics would either allow the lightning to fry the interior electronics, or it should have no effect whatsoever because it's a Farraday Cage that provides a path for the electricity to flow out of into the ground (for PAs standing on the ground).

Call Lightning is a mystical spell. Therefore it follows that if Call Lightning can't effect hardened tech in such a manner, neither should psionics that produce electricity-manipulating effects.

Call Lightning and Electrokinesis work differently though. CL is magically summoned lightning. It counts as magic in nature, but it's still got electric attributes.

Electrokinesis is not clear in how it controls things, and it may not do so via external pulses, but rather by directly manipulating the electricity within the thing BEHIND the shield. The psionics penetrate it, because psionics are not electricity, but controlling the internal electricity behind the armor. Kind of like how some spells penetrate armor by being raw magic until effecting a person, while others don't because they manifest as external energy. Electric control is more of the former.

I may ask you why the Zapper evolution/mutation would even progress into a statistical portion of the populace if it wasn't beneficial to the subjects who manifested the new avenues of survival?

Things don't have to have major benefits to spread, otherwise we wouldn't have mass Down's Syndrome, and things like Sickle Cell Anemia or Hemophilia wouldn't have stuck around.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also kinda scary: I'm pretty sure both Neural maces and Vibro-blades have on/off switches for safety reasons, so couldn't a zapper turn those off too?

Yes, they absolutely could manipualte the safety switches, and if their gun has an auto-eject feature they could trigger that too. There's a good reason old fashioned guns with CTF rounds are still a thing in Rifts.

Any example of guns with auto-eject? Can't recall it being specified for or against.

None that i'm aware of, but that dosn't change the fact that if someone does make an electronically controlled auto-ejector, a zapper could trip it.

The power can explicitly drain the power generator from a power armor, rendering the glitter boy completely useless.

Bit confused about this, I thought GBs had a nuclear power source, meaning that there is continual power output, unlike say, something battery-powered like a Chipwell.

Yes, that's what makes it a generator, and the zapper power explicitly says they can drain 8% of the output of a generator per level, so by level 13 they can drain 100% of that continual output at will, and continue to do so for 10 minutes per level of experiance. sinse they're absorbing all the power, the glitter boy is useless.

Actually the way the power is written, one zapper could drain Chi-Towns entire power grid just by standing near a power line. there's no limit to how much power they can absorb at once--it just increases their healing rate, so instead of putting more and more strain on their bodies they just heal faster and faster.

a burster with a CS plasma rifle can mulitply the damage x10 for a 1d6*100 plasma gun after all.

Has there been clarification if Fuel Flame works on Plasma? Even if it did, a gun blast is pretty fast, I think there should at least be some kind of initiative or targetting roll to see if a psychic can target the gunfire before it impacts an enemy. It's not like a wall of flame which sits there for a while giving you time to target it. Although... they probably might be able to use it on their own auras... do you think that would enhance the MDC protection as well as the MD it inflicts?

Plasma has always been lumped in with fire in Palladium magic and psionics, so I don't see how it needs further clarification.

As for their own auras, GM's call there.

[wyrmraker]

Also kinda scary: I'm pretty sure both Neural maces and Vibro-blades have on/off switches for safety reasons, so couldn't a zapper turn those off too?

Yes, they absolutely could manipualte the safety switches, and if their gun has an auto-eject feature they could trigger that too. There's a good reason old fashioned guns with CTF rounds are still a thing in Rifts.

Any example of guns with auto-eject? Can't recall it being specified for or against.

The power can explicitly drain the power generator from a power armor, rendering the glitter boy completely useless.

Bit confused about this, I thought GBs had a nuclear power source, meaning that there is continual power output, unlike say, something battery-powered like a Chipwell.

a burster with a CS plasma rifle can mulitply the damage x10 for a 1d6*100 plasma gun after all.

Has there been clarification if Fuel Flame works on Plasma? Even if it did, a gun blast is pretty fast, I think there should at least be some kind of initiative or targetting roll to see if a psychic can target the gunfire before it impacts an enemy. It's not like a wall of flame which sits there for a while giving you time to target it. Although... they probably might be able to use it on their own auras... do you think that would enhance the MDC protection as well as the MD it inflicts?

Why would you not EM shield everything in a super science setting? See where this is going?

Expense, you think Chipwell shields all it's things?

Having power armor immune to electromagnetic pulses from nukes is nice, but if you're equipping the militia of a village that probably won't have nukes set off near it, better 10 guardians in PA without EM shielding to fight off roving Brodkil than 1 guardian with EM shielding in case the CS happens to want to do some testing nearby which coincidentally is the same day the Brodkil think it would be fun to invade.

Psionics may be mystic powers of the mind, but they affect the physics of the world. The spell Call Lightning is a good counterpoint. The standard scientific physics would either allow the lightning to fry the interior electronics, or it should have no effect whatsoever because it's a Farraday Cage that provides a path for the electricity to flow out of into the ground (for PAs standing on the ground).

Call Lightning is a mystical spell. Therefore it follows that if Call Lightning can't effect hardened tech in such a manner, neither should psionics that produce electricity-manipulating effects.

Call Lightning and Electrokinesis work differently though. CL is magically summoned lightning. It counts as magic in nature, but it's still got electric attributes.

Electrokinesis is not clear in how it controls things, and it may not do so via external pulses, but rather by directly manipulating the electricity within the thing BEHIND the shield. The psionics penetrate it, because psionics are not electricity, but controlling the internal electricity behind the armor. Kind of like how some spells penetrate armor by being raw magic until effecting a person, while others don't because they manifest as external energy. Electric control is more of the former.

I may ask you why the Zapper evolution/mutation would even progress into a statistical portion of the populace if it wasn't beneficial to the subjects who manifested the new avenues of survival?

Things don't have to have major benefits to spread, otherwise we wouldn't have mass Down's Syndrome, and things like Sickle Cell Anemia or Hemophilia wouldn't have stuck around.

I understand what you're saying, and mostly agree with it. My purpose was to clarify how a GM could potentially nerf the Zapper's capabilities, and to make people aware of how a good grounding in physics can really screw with the setting.

[Nightmask]

Also kinda scary: I'm pretty sure both Neural maces and Vibro-blades have on/off switches for safety reasons, so couldn't a zapper turn those off too?

Yes, they absolutely could manipualte the safety switches, and if their gun has an auto-eject feature they could trigger that too. There's a good reason old fashioned guns with CTF rounds are still a thing in Rifts.

Any example of guns with auto-eject? Can't recall it being specified for or against.

The power can explicitly drain the power generator from a power armor, rendering the glitter boy completely useless.

Bit confused about this, I thought GBs had a nuclear power source, meaning that there is continual power output, unlike say, something battery-powered like a Chipwell.

a burster with a CS plasma rifle can mulitply the damage x10 for a 1d6*100 plasma gun after all.

Has there been clarification if Fuel Flame works on Plasma? Even if it did, a gun blast is pretty fast, I think there should at least be some kind of initiative or targetting roll to see if a psychic can target the gunfire before it impacts an enemy. It's not like a wall of flame which sits there for a while giving you time to target it. Although... they probably might be able to use it on their own auras... do you think that would enhance the MDC protection as well as the MD it inflicts?

Why would you not EM shield everything in a super science setting? See where this is going?

Expense, you think Chipwell shields all it's things?

Having power armor immune to electromagnetic pulses from nukes is nice, but if you're equipping the militia of a village that probably won't have nukes set off near it, better 10 guardians in PA without EM shielding to fight off roving Brodkil than 1 guardian with EM shielding in case the CS happens to want to do some testing nearby which coincidentally is the same day the Brodkil think it would be fun to invade.

Psionics may be mystic powers of the mind, but they affect the physics of the world. The spell Call Lightning is a good counterpoint. The standard scientific physics would either allow the lightning to fry the interior electronics, or it should have no effect whatsoever because it's a Farraday Cage that provides a path for the electricity to flow out of into the ground (for PAs standing on the ground).

Call Lightning is a mystical spell. Therefore it follows that if Call Lightning can't effect hardened tech in such a manner, neither should psionics that produce electricity-manipulating effects.

Call Lightning and Electrokinesis work differently though. CL is magically summoned lightning. It counts as magic in nature, but it's still got electric attributes.

Electrokinesis is not clear in how it controls things, and it may not do so via external pulses, but rather by directly manipulating the electricity within the thing BEHIND the shield. The psionics penetrate it, because psionics are not electricity, but controlling the internal electricity behind the armor. Kind of like how some spells penetrate armor by being raw magic until effecting a person, while others don't because they manifest as external energy. Electric control is more of the former.

I may ask you why the Zapper evolution/mutation would even progress into a statistical portion of the populace if it wasn't beneficial to the subjects who manifested the new avenues of survival?

Things don't have to have major benefits to spread, otherwise we wouldn't have mass Down's Syndrome, and things like Sickle Cell Anemia or Hemophilia wouldn't have stuck around.

I understand what you're saying, and mostly agree with it. My purpose was to clarify how a GM could potentially nerf the Zapper's capabilities, and to make people aware of how a good grounding in physics can really screw with the setting.

I seriously doubt you'd find any physicist who'd actually go 'oh yes EMP shielding would totally work at blocking psionic powers of the mind from manipulating the electricity within a device', because however good your grasp of physics certainly the better it is the more you'd go 'no way no how would EMP shielding do anything to stop mysterious psychic powers from just reaching in and taking control over the electricity in a device'.

[Akashic Soldier]

Also, we know the Zapper's powers are not linked to EMP because there is that psychic D-Bee that is associated with the Megaversal Legion (they look like a bunch of Eye Stalks in a Lab Coat; its in South America 2 I think?) and they have the psychic ability to manipulate electromagnetic pulses and it is explicitly different to normal electrokinesis.

[wyrmraker]

Also kinda scary: I'm pretty sure both Neural maces and Vibro-blades have on/off switches for safety reasons, so couldn't a zapper turn those off too?

Yes, they absolutely could manipualte the safety switches, and if their gun has an auto-eject feature they could trigger that too. There's a good reason old fashioned guns with CTF rounds are still a thing in Rifts.

Any example of guns with auto-eject? Can't recall it being specified for or against.

The power can explicitly drain the power generator from a power armor, rendering the glitter boy completely useless.

Bit confused about this, I thought GBs had a nuclear power source, meaning that there is continual power output, unlike say, something battery-powered like a Chipwell.

a burster with a CS plasma rifle can mulitply the damage x10 for a 1d6*100 plasma gun after all.

Has there been clarification if Fuel Flame works on Plasma? Even if it did, a gun blast is pretty fast, I think there should at least be some kind of initiative or targetting roll to see if a psychic can target the gunfire before it impacts an enemy. It's not like a wall of flame which sits there for a while giving you time to target it. Although... they probably might be able to use it on their own auras... do you think that would enhance the MDC protection as well as the MD it inflicts?

Why would you not EM shield everything in a super science setting? See where this is going?

Expense, you think Chipwell shields all it's things?

Having power armor immune to electromagnetic pulses from nukes is nice, but if you're equipping the militia of a village that probably won't have nukes set off near it, better 10 guardians in PA without EM shielding to fight off roving Brodkil than 1 guardian with EM shielding in case the CS happens to want to do some testing nearby which coincidentally is the same day the Brodkil think it would be fun to invade.

Psionics may be mystic powers of the mind, but they affect the physics of the world. The spell Call Lightning is a good counterpoint. The standard scientific physics would either allow the lightning to fry the interior electronics, or it should have no effect whatsoever because it's a Farraday Cage that provides a path for the electricity to flow out of into the ground (for PAs standing on the ground).

Call Lightning is a mystical spell. Therefore it follows that if Call Lightning can't effect hardened tech in such a manner, neither should psionics that produce electricity-manipulating effects.

Call Lightning and Electrokinesis work differently though. CL is magically summoned lightning. It counts as magic in nature, but it's still got electric attributes.

Electrokinesis is not clear in how it controls things, and it may not do so via external pulses, but rather by directly manipulating the electricity within the thing BEHIND the shield. The psionics penetrate it, because psionics are not electricity, but controlling the internal electricity behind the armor. Kind of like how some spells penetrate armor by being raw magic until effecting a person, while others don't because they manifest as external energy. Electric control is more of the former.

I may ask you why the Zapper evolution/mutation would even progress into a statistical portion of the populace if it wasn't beneficial to the subjects who manifested the new avenues of survival?

Things don't have to have major benefits to spread, otherwise we wouldn't have mass Down's Syndrome, and things like Sickle Cell Anemia or Hemophilia wouldn't have stuck around.

I understand what you're saying, and mostly agree with it. My purpose was to clarify how a GM could potentially nerf the Zapper's capabilities, and to make people aware of how a good grounding in physics can really screw with the setting.

I seriously doubt you'd find any physicist who'd actually go 'oh yes EMP shielding would totally work at blocking psionic powers of the mind from manipulating the electricity within a device', because however good your grasp of physics certainly the better it is the more you'd go 'no way no how would EMP shielding do anything to stop mysterious psychic powers from just reaching in and taking control over the electricity in a device'.

Okay, let me define my example. A circuit breaker or electrical fuse is designed to trigger or burn out whenever the amperage gets too high. It's considered an extremely basic version of EMP control. If a Zapper manipulates a circuit too hard, it should pop the breaker (or burn out the fuse), fully preventing electrical flow through that circuit. In *theory* a Zapper could bypass that circuit, given how the Zapper is written, but in fact only Telemechanic Mental Operation is proven to be able to reset that circuit breaker at range.

If it can be proven via canon sources that an electrokinetic can move electricity through an open circuit, then that would be fine, no arguements with how it works.

[Nightmask]

I understand what you're saying, and mostly agree with it. My purpose was to clarify how a GM could potentially nerf the Zapper's capabilities, and to make people aware of how a good grounding in physics can really screw with the setting.

I seriously doubt you'd find any physicist who'd actually go 'oh yes EMP shielding would totally work at blocking psionic powers of the mind from manipulating the electricity within a device', because however good your grasp of physics certainly the better it is the more you'd go 'no way no how would EMP shielding do anything to stop mysterious psychic powers from just reaching in and taking control over the electricity in a device'.

Okay, let me define my example. A circuit breaker or electrical fuse is designed to trigger or burn out whenever the amperage gets too high. It's considered an extremely basic version of EMP control. If a Zapper manipulates a circuit too hard, it should pop the breaker (or burn out the fuse), fully preventing electrical flow through that circuit. In *theory* a Zapper could bypass that circuit, given how the Zapper is written, but in fact only Telemechanic Mental Operation is proven to be able to reset that circuit breaker at range.

If it can be proven via canon sources that an electrokinetic can move electricity through an open circuit, then that would be fine, no arguements with how it works.

That's not even remotely EMP control wyrmraker, circuit breakers and fuses are an entirely different category of device. Electrokinesis allows for direct manipulation of electrons, the very fact it can create electrical arcs and drain electrical energy directly out of something makes it quite obvious that it can override a circuit breaker or blown fuse by keeping the electrons flowing across the gap at a minimum.

[wyrmraker]

I see your point, but must disagree that circuit breakers and fuses are not a part of EMP control, as well as proper grounding. These are all foundational control measures. If the Zapper can override circuit breakers and fuses past the point where they trigger, arcing over the gap, the circuitry will most likely burn out. And I don't think there's a Zapper in the world that can make a circuit work when it's become a charred mess.

But my base point still remains. I was showing how an arguement against the Zapper could be formed by someone familiar with physics and electrical knowledge.

[Nightmask]

I see your point, but must disagree that circuit breakers and fuses are not a part of EMP control, as well as proper grounding. These are all foundational control measures. If the Zapper can override circuit breakers and fuses past the point where they trigger, arcing over the gap, the circuitry will most likely burn out. And I don't think there's a Zapper in the world that can make a circuit work when it's become a charred mess.

But my base point still remains. I was showing how an arguement against the Zapper could be formed by someone familiar with physics and electrical knowledge.

Yes, and my base point remains that no one familiar with physics and electrical knowledge would buy that (I certainly don't and I'm quite familiar with both).

[Tor]

Yes, that's what makes it a generator, and the zapper power explicitly says they can drain 8% of the output of a generator per level, so by level 13 they can drain 100% of that continual output at will, and continue to do so for 10 minutes per level of experiance. sinse they're absorbing all the power, the glitter boy is useless.

Once they go from 96 to 104 at level 13, do you think there is any impact from the percentage over 100? Like could they apply that towards draining a second generator if they were touching it simultaneously? Perhaps drain 52% from each one?

the way the power is written, one zapper could drain Chi-Towns entire power grid just by standing near a power line. there's no limit to how much power they can absorb at once--it just increases their healing rate, so instead of putting more and more strain on their bodies they just heal faster and faster.
.

Heaven help us if they learn how to redirect that into a Power Leech.

My purpose was to clarify how a GM could potentially nerf the Zapper's capabilities

Shoot them in the head =/ Also: Psi-Nullifiers.

[Akashic Soldier]

Shoot them in the head

Ah, Tor I've missed having you around.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yes, that's what makes it a generator, and the zapper power explicitly says they can drain 8% of the output of a generator per level, so by level 13 they can drain 100% of that continual output at will, and continue to do so for 10 minutes per level of experiance. sinse they're absorbing all the power, the glitter boy is useless.

Once they go from 96 to 104 at level 13, do you think there is any impact from the percentage over 100? Like could they apply that towards draining a second generator if they were touching it simultaneously? Perhaps drain 52% from each one?

GM's call. could go either way.

the way the power is written, one zapper could drain Chi-Towns entire power grid just by standing near a power line. there's no limit to how much power they can absorb at once--it just increases their healing rate, so instead of putting more and more strain on their bodies they just heal faster and faster.
.

Heaven help us if they learn how to redirect that into a Power Leech.

[gelidus]

UGH emp I hate this topic in any form its such a touchy topic.

This is my take on psi vs hardened. Yes I know its not the same but bear with me here.

You air in a fireproof power suit. I have a spell of tiny fire ball.

I flex my mind bending psychic chops and using the power of my mind I bend the cosmos to my will and make my tiny fire ball. Once the tiny fire ball is on its way its all psychics. It needs fuel oxygen and heat.

It hits the fire proof suit and the guy inside it laughs at me.


Now being mad I try again I extend my mind and and start to warp the very fabric of reality inside the suit(its fire proof not psychic prof). And the tiny fireball pops out inside of the suit. And the laughing guy stops laughing and dies screaming while not setting the local wildlife on fire.

Now as the zapper

I extend my mind and start pulling power from the e-clip, (i'm going to assume this is magicish as unless your Tesla no one has really found out how to transfer electricity over more then about 7 feet, And that was a VERY small amount).

But its hardened... At best you can argue that the power grounds its self out as it trys to exit the clip magic/psi assisted or not.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I try to stay out of arguments on the forums, but I couldn't let this one slide. I'm playing my first rifts PC and it happens to be a zapper, so I kind of have an interest in what's going on here.

At it's most basic definition, EMP Hardening/Shielding can and should be understood as follows: specially protected wiring and circuitry built to withstand OVERLOAD OR BURN OUT CAUSED BY AN ELECTRONIC SURGE. Be it through an EMP pulse from a nuclear explosion, a lightning strike, or any other means by which the circuit might be OVERLOADED

Everybody got that? Good, let's move on to an example

Tech User Vs Zapper

Zapper: "I'll fry his power armor with an MD Electro Blast!" Rolls for strike are successful and damage is rolled

GM: "He's still coming at you, it doesn't seem to have affected him at all"

Tech User: (over loud speaker of PA) "Ha ha you freak! Your electro blasts won't stop me. My PA has hardened circuitry. I'm going repaint my armor with your blood."

GM: "What are you going to do Zapper?"

Zapper: "Hmmm hardened circuits eh? So burnout/overload isn't an option." Snaps fingers! "Aha! I'll use my manipulate electronic devices power to shut him down" So our friendly zapper shuts down the power on the PA. It can't move as the power going to the drive train has been stopped, he also cut the power to the life support, cooling system (and consequently turns up the heat), and the electronic cockpit release. When the smart-alec Tech User decides to pull the manual cockpit release because A. he's burning up, or B. running out of oxygen the Zapper is going to fry his smarmy butt.

Tech User: (to GM) "But that's not fair, my circuits are hardened!"

GM: "Yeah it's completely fair. He didn't overload your circuits, he pulled the plug on them. As for turning on your heat, that's still legal. He hasn't overloaded the circuit, but he's creating his own energy source (within normal circuit loads) to power the heater. I'm sorry buddy, but unless you can come up with something clever you're boned. Hardened circuits are a one trick pony"

Everyone follow what happened? If not, here is a recap

zapper tried to fry the circuit by overloading it
tech user survived. hardened circuits are protected from overload
zapper changes tactics and cuts the power
tech user is boned. Hardened circuits don't do JACK against loss of power or redirected power within the boundaries of normal circuit loads.

Nightmask is right. Case closed.

[Tor]

Case re-opened: we should discuss what people aware of such abilities (such as the CS, since they have Zappers in their army) might potentially be trying to do (besides hardening) to counteract these Zapper abilities.

Any ideas? Put the RCSG scientists on it.