Money makes the world go round...

[CyCo]

...but how much does it weight pound for pound?

I don't often post here, but I occasionally give it a read. I was reading the 'Equipment players always forget', and the 'sub-topic' of how much does money weight caught my eye.

Some time ago I was running a campaign using a different system and a homespun setting. Of course, there was how to deal with money within the game. I based the following on a article in an old copy of a gaming magazine, and added a little to customize it a little to my setting. I'll cut/paste the entire thing here (it's not that big), but the main thing I'm posting here for is the weight.


MONETARY SYSTEM

2 B = 1 T; 5 T = 1M; 5 M = 1H; 2H = C; 2 C = 1 S.

or

Code: Select all

                 Bit        Two-bit        Mark       Half-crown       Crown      Sovereign
Bit (B)           1            1/2          1/10         1/50           1/100       1/200
Two-bit (T)       2            1             1/5        1/25            1/50        1/100
Mark (M)          10           5             1           1/5              1/10        1/20
Half-crown (H)     50           25            5           1               1/2         1/4
Crown (C)          100          50           10            2              1           1/2
Sovereign (S)      200         100            20           4             2           1

[damn that formatting is terrible, but at least you can understand it. I hope. lol]

The sizes of all coins are given in pennyweights (pw). There are 20 pennyweights to the ounce, and 16 ounces to the pound. The standard coin (“piece”) weighs four pennyweights. This gives 80 coins to the pound.

The standard coin of trade is the Mark. This forms the basis for trade and the economy. Bits and Two-bits, also known as a ‘Ha-bit’, are the most common among the poor, with a smattering of Marks. Half-crowns, also known as ‘Ha-crowns’, and Crowns are the coin of choice amongst the nobility and wealthy merchants, using Marks as pocket change. Sovereign are used by the nobility and the wealthy merchants for large or major purchases, such as coaches, ships, bulk lumber and the like. It is also used between royalty and foreign nations as trade items.

Especially large purchases, a small fleet, or a loan to a foreign nation for example, would use trade bars. Most trade bars are worth 10 Sovereign. Needless to say, most people have never seen a trade bar.


Enjoy!


8]

[arouetta]

...but how much does it weight pound for pound?

According to LoB, gold pieces are not 24k. Gold and silver are mixed with other metal alloys to produce a coin that is then given a face value of 1 gold (insert country specific name here). Because of this, a bag of coins equaling 2500 gold will likely weigh less than a 1lb brick of 24k gold, even though they are worth the same price.

How much less has no canon answer that I'm aware of. So each GM would have to determine a way of coming up with an answer. One way is to look at real life metallurgy - when the US changed the composition of the quarter, the weight went down. Using that as a comparison, I set down that a bag of coins weighing 1lb contains 2750 gold. How big that bag is would depend on whether the coins are predominantly silver or predominantly gold, the denomination and the nation's currency sizes. At that point, my brain implodes and I don't even bother to ask the players how their characters are hauling around their pocket change.

[Alrik Vas]

This is interesting. Probably much more information out there as well.

http://www.pomian.demon.co.uk/weights.htm

[Goliath Strongarm]

in palaldium Silver coins are minted and given a gold price. in fact in PFRPG 1st edition there's a huge section on the coins, and some of the coins are quite big and heavy and have jewels in them. Those Old kingdom coins are worth 5000 a piece.
the value of an actual gold coin is somewhere between 50 and 100 gold given the pictures i saw.

Those pages still exist, just are now on the cutting room floor:

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

Of course, they broke them down some... used to be just one big view of all of them...

[kiralon]

I just say the 1gp coin is %10 gold and work up where the 100gp coins are 24 carat or something like that, because the size of the coins is big enough that 2500 1gp "gold" would weigh a lot more then 1 pound.
for example
The australian 5 cent piece, which is the smalled lightest coin comes in over 7kg when there are 2500 of them
Mass: 2.83 g
Diameter: 19.41 mm
Thickness: 1.30 mm
Edge: Reeded
Composition: 75% Copper, 25% Ni
and 2500 comes in at 15.59 lbs/7kg

The eastern territory equivalent 1gp coin, about the same size, (but gold weighs more then twice that of copper) so id estimate 2500 1gp coins would be about 30 pounds/14-15kg. So in that 30 pounds less then 1 pound is gold (the other metal costs as well so 29+ pounds base metal) = 2500 gold

gp should be thought of the same as a dollar, an abstract rather then being made out of gold.

[zyanitevp]

in palaldium Silver coins are minted and given a gold price. in fact in PFRPG 1st edition there's a huge section on the coins, and some of the coins are quite big and heavy and have jewels in them. Those Old kingdom coins are worth 5000 a piece.
the value of an actual gold coin is somewhere between 50 and 100 gold given the pictures i saw.

Those pages still exist, just are now on the cutting room floor:

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

Of course, they broke them down some... used to be just one big view of all of them...

It is also in Library of Bletherad, in the Numismatry section, p 122-128. Highly recommend it for those that really want the flavor of different monies in Palladium Fantasy.

[CyCo]

As I mentioned, I derived that from an old gaming article, and modded it somewhat to fit my needs. It wasn't anything to do with any PB game. The article I used was based on Middle Ages England, and used pennyweight, which was the proper terminology used for coinage. I changed some of the values used, and a few other things I no longer remember.

For those wondering, the three lower valued coins were ceramic, with the Mark being divided into 10 via 'creases' across the faces. You could break up a Mark into lower valued sections. In the campaign, they were being fazed out and being replaced with a single piece coin for their value. The three upper valued coins were two piece, being a enameled ceramic outer 'ring' with a solid metal 'disc' in the center. The metal used, in increasing value, was silver, gold, platinum. These were inspired by modern coinage using two different alloys.

I never thought of how the trade bars would work, other than financially. Maybe a solid gold bar with an enameled image imbedded on the upper face, depending on which kingdom it was made in.

[Giant2005]

A coin can't be worth less than the material it is made out of, otherwise no-one would trade the coins - they would simply melt them down and trade the material it was made from.
LoN page 122 tells us that all of the coins have a large amount of precious metal in them. The term "large" is pretty ambiguous, so I will take a very conservative approach and consider the coins to be made of an alloy that is only 10% gold and 90% worthless minerals.
Northern Hinterlands page 55 tells us that Gold is worth 2500 gold pieces per pound. If a coin is 10% gold and 90% worthless, a coin would have to weigh a maximum of 0.004 lbs before its materials became more valuable than the coin. And that is being extremely conservative on the gold ratio - it is very likely that a coin weighs far less than that.

[kiralon]

If a coin is 10% gold and 90% worthless, a coin would have to weigh a maximum of 0.004 lbs before its materials became more valuable than the coin. And that is being extremely conservative on the gold ratio - it is very likely that a coin weighs far less than that.

Well, 0.004 pounds is 1.8 grams, the current american penny (the lightest american coin i could find) weighs 2.5 grams, but i agree with you, back then the coin would have the value of the material it is made of rather then being like today and having an arbitrary amount applied to its value by the government, except for maybe the land of the south winds. The value of gold should make copper or silver more likely to be used as low cost coinage and gold coins being used for the 100 and 200 gp value denominations. But the other metals that go into the coin arent free, they still have to be mined as well, so its unlikely that a 1gp coin has any gold in it really.

[Nightmask]

A coin can't be worth less than the material it is made out of, otherwise no-one would trade the coins - they would simply melt them down and trade the material it was made from.
LoN page 122 tells us that all of the coins have a large amount of precious metal in them. The term "large" is pretty ambiguous, so I will take a very conservative approach and consider the coins to be made of an alloy that is only 10% gold and 90% worthless minerals.
Northern Hinterlands page 55 tells us that Gold is worth 2500 gold pieces per pound. If a coin is 10% gold and 90% worthless, a coin would have to weigh a maximum of 0.004 lbs before its materials became more valuable than the coin. And that is being extremely conservative on the gold ratio - it is very likely that a coin weighs far less than that.

Well not quite, the US penny, particularly the copper ones still around, is actually worth less than the materials it's manufactured from but there are other pressures that keep them in circulation (although there are certainly people who've melted them down for the bulk metal value but that's a felony if you're caught). So there are possibilities where the coin's value is less than the metal value put into it.

[The Immortal ME]

Actually, I believe pennies are no longer considered legal tender, or whatever the deuce it is, so you can do whatever you like with them. Otherwise every shop and chemistry class in the country would be populated by felons after smashing up, melting down, or dissolving coinage. The vending machine in the rest area that lets you flatten them and stamp stuff into them is also legal now.

Generally, the face value is more then the metal content. The exact ratio varied radically by the whims of rulers throughout history. Or maybe how much metal they had on hand to give to the mint. You can't debase the coinage too much or it will throw the economy into chaos, but you can't not mint enough coinage to meet circulation needs or it will throw the economy into chaos. Having enough bullion on to run the mint was a big deal.

[Edit:] And example of a Coinage act, setting the values and contents of coins.

[Nightmask]

Actually, I believe pennies are no longer considered legal tender, or whatever the deuce it is, so you can do whatever you like with them. Otherwise every shop and chemistry class in the country would be populated by felons after smashing up, melting down, or dissolving coinage. The vending machine in the rest area that lets you flatten them and stamp stuff into them is also legal now.

Generally, the face value is more then the metal content. The exact ratio varied radically by the whims of rulers throughout history. Or maybe how much metal they had on hand to give to the mint. You can't debase the coinage too much or it will throw the economy into chaos, but you can't not mint enough coinage to meet circulation needs or it will throw the economy into chaos. Having enough bullion on to run the mint was a big deal.

[Edit:] And example of a Coinage act, setting the values and contents of coins.

Uh no, that's way wrong, pennies are still very much legal tender, and yes all those shops and chemistry classes are technically in violation of the law. While there has been effort over the years to eliminate the production of pennies as currency to date all such attempts (thankfully) have failed.

[The Immortal ME]

Defacing coinage for fraudulent purposes is a crime. The law says nothing about fun.