Eugenics be used on Supernatural Beings?

[ESREVER333]

All True Dragons, Master Vampires, True born Werewolves, and Nightbane are Impervious to Chimera-like Eugenic modifications, (because you see actual physical changes) BUT all of them are NOT Impervious to Human-like Eugenic modifications (because you can not see the internal changes made inside their bodies). Is this possible? Hmmm.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I would not allow it. It is pretty clear they are not meant to be compatible.

[Nightmask]

Uh no all of those are immune to all forms of Eugenics. Vampires are undead creatures that by no longer being living one cannot modify them genetically, Dragons are explicitly noted as being immune to such things under the Gene-Splicers entry from Rifts: England, same holds for creatures like lycanthropes and Nightbane as they're supernatural creatures with massive regeneration which would block any efforts to modify them via Eugenics.

[Sasqaricious]

Although I would probably allow it for aliens, the description states that it is changes to the human body and seems pretty focused on that. Although it later states that the idea came from AU:GG and possibly why it is a human only thing and aliens can use the rules from there. (Even lists page number for the galaxy guide of 144)

But that is me, if you are the gm or are in a game that a gm allows then kudos as if that is the game they wish to run it is their right.

[ESREVER333]

Although I would probably allow it for aliens, the description states that it is changes to the human body and seems pretty focused on that. Although it later states that the idea came from AU:GG and possibly why it is a human only thing and aliens can use the rules from there. (Even lists page number for the galaxy guide of 144)

But that is me, if you are the gm or are in a game that a gm allows then kudos as if that is the game they wish to run it is their right.

That's right. I remember most human on Earth haven't reach eugenics technology yet, and alien races have master that eugenics modification possibly both affecting aliens and humans alike!! Thanks for the idea. Cool!!

[Stone Gargoyle]

Although I would probably allow it for aliens, the description states that it is changes to the human body and seems pretty focused on that. Although it later states that the idea came from AU:GG and possibly why it is a human only thing and aliens can use the rules from there. (Even lists page number for the galaxy guide of 144)

But that is me, if you are the gm or are in a game that a gm allows then kudos as if that is the game they wish to run it is their right.

I see no reason why you could not use eugenics on aliens, and the power category could probably even be added to to add alien abilities to a human as well.

[csyphrett]

All True Dragons, Master Vampires, True born Werewolves, and Nightbane are Impervious to Chimera-like Eugenic modifications, (because you see actual physical changes) BUT all of them are NOT Impervious to Human-like Eugenic modifications (because you can not see the internal changes made inside their bodies). Is this possible? Hmmm.

No what are you trying to do with it?
CES

[drewkitty ~..~]

All True Dragons, Master Vampires, True born Werewolves, and Nightbane are Impervious to Chimera-like Eugenic modifications, (because you see actual physical changes) BUT all of them are NOT Impervious to Human-like Eugenic modifications (because you can not see the internal changes made inside their bodies). Is this possible? Hmmm.

They are all totally immune to any changes.

Dragons (and all that bio-regen) all the modified cells are expunged by the bio-regen.
Master Vampire....cause MV's (like all other "traditional" vamps.) are DEAD.
Were-people....see dragons.
Nightbane(pre-/post-NBSG)[&NS]...are just immune to transformations, period.

[Tor]

Vampires are undead creatures that by no longer being living one cannot modify them genetically

DNA still exists in the dead, why can't we alter the genes of dead creatures?

Dragons are explicitly noted as being immune to such things under the Gene-Splicers entry from Rifts: England

Pretty sure this would have to be under Mindwerks. Lemme take a look... pg 66 left column number 9 explicitly forbids genetic alteration to energy beings and alien intelligences only. It says "MOST true supernatural beings and creatures of magic" can't be. But "most" leaves room for exceptions so the lack of ALL means SOME (though we know not which) supies and CoMs could be genetically altered.

same holds for creatures like lycanthropes and Nightbane as they're supernatural creatures with massive regeneration which would block any efforts to modify them via Eugenics.

What is this claim based on? I haven't seen it said anywhere that having regeneration blocks genetic modification.

Heck if we look in Dyval, it talks about deevils (who all have healing factors) getting enhanced in Diabolus' pits, so that would contradict your assertion.

They are all totally immune to any changes. Dragons (and all that bio-regen) all the modified cells are expunged by the bio-regen. Were-people....see dragons.

That wouldn't necessarily happen, and some modifications work by altering your existing cells not by introducing new ones.

Master Vampire....cause MV's (like all other "traditional" vamps.) are DEAD.

and? Does it specify only the living can be altered?

Nightbane(pre-/post-NBSG)[&NS]...are just immune to transformations, period.

True, although what counts as a Transformation is a bit shady. The Becoming itself, and many of the Talents, create transformations.

[csyphrett]

The answer is no, Tor. There's no weaseling around it. The answer will always be no.
CES

[Daniel Stoker]

DNA still exists in the dead, why can't we alter the genes of dead creatures?

Because they're dead and the cells don't work like normal ones anymore. Eugenics, in HU isn't meant to be as encompassing as you seem to want though.


Daniel Stoker

[drewkitty ~..~]

They are all totally immune to any changes. Dragons (and all that bio-regen) all the modified cells are expunged by the bio-regen. Were-people....see dragons.

That wouldn't necessarily happen, and some modifications work by altering your existing cells not by introducing new ones.

If you look at what I said, the situation you purpose is covered already by what I said.

Master Vampire....cause MV's (like all other "traditional" vamps.) are DEAD.

and? Does it specify only the living can be altered?

There are no living cells to be altered. Dead cells do not propitiate changes made in molecules in them.

[Tor]

The answer is no, Tor. There's no weaseling around it. The answer will always be no.

Please avoid confusing non-specific posts like that. I'm not even sure what you're saying no to. I'm not even sure I asked you a question.

they're dead and the cells don't work like normal ones anymore. Eugenics, in HU isn't meant to be as encompassing as you seem to want though.

Where is Eugenics specified to only work on living or 'normal' cells?

the situation you purpose is covered already by what I said.

I'm not clear how, you said that dragons/weres would expunge abnormal cells, where does it say that? They expel non-living substances like cybernetic implants, but that's different and specified distinctly.

There are no living cells to be altered. Dead cells do not propitiate changes made in molecules in them.

UNdead ones do. That's why vampires have bioregeneration.

[DtMK]

One, Supernatural PS is something that can be granted by Eugenics. Eugenics is something that in the HU world, is not just genetic engineering, but by taking DNA from aliens, monsters, etc. and splicing it into the character to create a certain effect. In short, Eugenics has to get their parts from somewhere, and it's comparable to Bio-Wizardry, which does affect supernatural creatures. So why wouldn't it affect supernatural beings if science is coming as close as possible to Bio-Wizardry, in some cases even exceeding and surpassing it?

[csyphrett]

Since Biowizardry doesn't affect the named OCCs, then eugenics doesn't either. The named classes are immune to all of that stuff. A vampire can't even get a magic tattoo.
CES

[DtMK]

But above said supernatural beings COULD be parted out to instill Eugenics in humans, right?

[csyphrett]

But above said supernatural beings COULD be parted out to instill Eugenics in humans, right?

Good question. The dragons are the only one I know they made an example for their dragon juicers. I going have to say no on the vampires and the nightbane, maybe on the weres even if I haven't heard of anyone trying it.
CES

[Stone Gargoyle]

The books do not describe Eugenics as being a form of wizardry and in fact seem to indicate it is science and medical. I think you could make a magical version of it, but that would be something different than the books describe.

[csyphrett]

Also the vampire description says they are invulnerable to anything that can't kill them. How would you work a science based eugenic on something that basically ignores everything, or heals most damage? Medical processes are ruled out by this.
CES

[Alrik Vas]

On the subject of Bio-Regeneration, I've been reading (in my deteriorated library) about the ability and the psionic power for instance says that it "frees from poison and disease" as well as clearly healing the user.

I couldn't find anything specific about dragon regeneration though, other than the values (1d10 per melee etc). Now, poison and disease, i can see how renewing your body over and over and expunge things like that. However, a truly...truly insidious disease turns your own cells against you, causing your accelerated healing rate to just kill you faster.

Certain fungal infections actually transform the DNA of a creature and they take on fungal traits, mostly being squishy. This is real stuff.

I know Palladium goes "MAGIC" about as often as a certain guy has gone "ALIENS", so everything i posted doesn't actually matter, but i think it's thought provoking all the same.

[The Beast]

All True Dragons, Master Vampires, True born Werewolves, and Nightbane are Impervious to Chimera-like Eugenic modifications, (because you see actual physical changes) BUT all of them are NOT Impervious to Human-like Eugenic modifications (because you can not see the internal changes made inside their bodies). Is this possible? Hmmm.

On the three you mention above, no, eugenics couldn't be used on them because their either their bio-regen is too powerful, they'd be immune to the transformation, or they're dead and immune to it anyway.

However, there are some supernatural beings that possibly could benefit from eugenics. It would have to be the one that can receive cybernetics & bionics (such as broadkil) though. The main drawback is that the procedure would have to be tailor-made every time a different species of SN creature came along seeking the benefits.

[Nightmask]

All True Dragons, Master Vampires, True born Werewolves, and Nightbane are Impervious to Chimera-like Eugenic modifications, (because you see actual physical changes) BUT all of them are NOT Impervious to Human-like Eugenic modifications (because you can not see the internal changes made inside their bodies). Is this possible? Hmmm.

On the three you mention above, no, eugenics couldn't be used on them because their either their bio-regen is too powerful, they'd be immune to the transformation, or they're dead and immune to it anyway.

However, there are some supernatural beings that possibly could benefit from eugenics. It would have to be the one that can receive cybernetics & bionics (such as broadkil) though. The main drawback is that the procedure would have to be tailor-made every time a different species of SN creature came along seeking the benefits.

So one should look at the Gene-Splicers (and their 'cousins' the Gene-Techs) and see what limitations are given for them, since they're the genetics-focused races and would know who can and can't be modified on the more supernatural end.

[Daniel Stoker]

Where is Eugenics specified to only work on living or 'normal' cells?

PU2 - Page 16: "Eugenics is the genetic engineering, cloning and gene splicing used to augment and change the human body.

Later they talk about it actually working better in Space and other advanced settings, but while they mention aliens there is no mention of it being able to be used on supernatural beings, let alone the dead who's cells... are well dead. Though you can harvest DNA from the dead, but that's different.


Daniel Stoker

[ESREVER333]

However, there are some supernatural beings that possibly could benefit from eugenics. It would have to be the one that can receive cybernetics & bionics (such as broadkil) though. The main drawback is that the procedure would have to be tailor-made every time a different species of SN creature came along seeking the benefits.

Ohhh!! I just realized any creatures that can receive cybernetic implants, can also choose not to get them but instead receive Eugenic modification!! If a creature's healing factor rejects cybernetic implants, this is true for Eugenic modifications too!!! Because we're enhancing them with technology or science.

[Tor]

PU2 - Page 16: "Eugenics is the genetic engineering, cloning and gene splicing used to augment and change the human body.

If this were a limiter it would mean only humans could benefit from Eugenics. 'Human' shouldn't be interpreted to mean 'normal'. Either this can be taken to mean ONLY human scan get it (which is a bit of a stretch) or that humans are among those able to get it.

they talk about it actually working better in Space and other advanced settings, but while they mention aliens there is no mention of it being able to be used on supernatural beings

This excludes the interpretation that it only works on humans then, in which case all we know is they are amongst a myriad of other species who can get it. So we can take the approach that only those species which are specifically named as able can benefit from it, or that everyone except those excluded can get it.

Supernatural beings don't need any special mention as recipients any more than other alien beings, unless there is some aspect of the process we know not to work on supernatural beings.

let alone the dead who's cells... are well dead. Though you can harvest DNA from the dead, but that's different.

I'm not sure how observing that dead cells are dead (or UNdead) says anything. While it's indeed different from harvesting, that's not what is being proposed here. Molecules are alterable, cells are alterable. We can cut dead flesh as well as living. We can cook dead flesh as well as living.

What process of Eugenic alteration do you think would not work on dead cells, and why? Why would it extend to undead cells?

any creatures that can receive cybernetic implants, can also choose not to get them but instead receive Eugenic modification!!

That's neat.

If a creature's healing factor rejects cybernetic implants, this is true for Eugenic modifications too!!! Because we're enhancing them with technology or science.

Does it explicitly say that? I don't think it stands to reason. Cybernetic implants are foreign objects and Eugenics can be complete alterations. Rejecting cybernetics doesn't mean the body would (or even can) reject bio-engineering alterations.

[Daniel Stoker]

If this were a limiter it would mean only humans could benefit from Eugenics. 'Human' shouldn't be interpreted to mean 'normal'. Either this can be taken to mean ONLY human scan get it (which is a bit of a stretch) or that humans are among those able to get it.

Why not? They're humans not demi-gods or dragons and the process is described as being used on them not any sort of supernatural being.

[quoteThis excludes the interpretation that it only works on humans then, in which case all we know is they are amongst a myriad of other species who can get it. So we can take the approach that only those species which are specifically named as able can benefit from it, or that everyone except those excluded can get it.

Supernatural beings don't need any special mention as recipients any more than other alien beings, unless there is some aspect of the process we know not to work on supernatural beings.
[/quote]

And yet there's no mention of it being able to work on any supernatural beings. They give us one group it can be used on, then gives us an example where it works more and an 'exception', why wouldn't supernaturals not need a mention. They don't mention it works on robots too, but I'm not going to assume it works on them.

I'm not sure how observing that dead cells are dead (or UNdead) says anything. While it's indeed different from harvesting, that's not what is being proposed here. Molecules are alterable, cells are alterable. We can cut dead flesh as well as living. We can cook dead flesh as well as living.

What process of Eugenic alteration do you think would not work on dead cells, and why? Why would it extend to undead cells?

Because eugenics works on living beings? You're changing DNA on beings and if you're dead your cells aren't going to multiply and do anything with DNA because... they're dead. They don't metabolize, etc which cells need to do.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

the process is described as being used on them not any sort of supernatural being.

A process doesn't have to be explicitly referenced to a given race for the race to be able to use it. If it mentions non-humans as able to get it, it's up for us to rule out forms of non-humans.

And yet there's no mention of it being able to work on any supernatural beings.

There doesn't need to be.

They give us one group it can be used on, then gives us an example where it works more and an 'exception', why wouldn't supernaturals not need a mention. They don't mention it works on robots too, but I'm not going to assume it works on them.

What exception do you mean? Supernatural beings are living things, robots are not, false equivalence.

Because eugenics works on living beings? You're changing DNA on beings and if you're dead your cells aren't going to multiply and do anything with DNA because... they're dead. They don't metabolize, etc which cells need to do.

We're talking about UNdead beings though. Creatures like vampires and zombies regenerate, so their cells DO multiply. Their cells must have some kind of metabolism to heal.

[Daniel Stoker]

A process doesn't have to be explicitly referenced to a given race for the race to be able to use it. If it mentions non-humans as able to get it, it's up for us to rule out forms of non-humans.

It does if you want to know who it works on. If it says it works on humans and then adds aliens it gives you a good idea that it just works on them unless they say elsewhere that group X can use it too.

There doesn't need to be.

Sure there is if you want to know it can work on them.

What exception do you mean? Supernatural beings are living things, robots are not, false equivalence.

Aliens, the exception later in the text that tells you it makes more sense for the class to be used in that kind of campaign because of the level of tech needed. And you’re the one wanting to use it on dead beings, so I thought I’d throw robots in too.

We're talking about UNdead beings though. Creatures like vampires and zombies regenerate, so their cells DO multiply. Their cells must have some kind of metabolism to heal.

And their cells are dead too. Vampires don’t get all new organs, they don’t eat food, they live on blood, they don’t need to breath air, etc something you’d need to keep a body and the cells ‘alive’. They are magical being and heal and ‘live’ via magic.


Daniel Stoker

[Alrik Vas]

Palladium's answer often is "magic." It suits this situation too. I think it would be cool if you could do stuff like that, modify vampires through eugenics, but since all of their capability, even their unlife, is reliant on magicalsparklyness, i'm pretty sure that applying science to them is a waste of time and effort.

TW Eugenics (if such a thing could exist) or Bio-Wizardry on the other hand...

[Tor]

It does if you want to know who it works on. If it says it works on humans and then adds aliens it gives you a good idea that it just works on them unless they say elsewhere that group X can use it too.

A lot of supernatural creatures are also aliens. Brodkil and Gargoyles, for all their invisibility and fire-breathing and occasional stoning, are very much biological creatures.

Stuff like Elementals and Entities, on the other hand, are just spirits who possess solids, liquids and gases, and would not have DNA to alter, nor even bodies to mix up with other bodies.

We can easily apply some common sense when looking at the bodies of most monsters to tell if they have bodies and genes. The ability to reproduce and have young being an extremely strong indicator.

there is if you want to know it can work on them.

I suppose so. By this logic, the only race we KNOW it works on is humans. "Aliens" tells us nothing. But we can extrapolate quite easily that since it talks about DNA and genes that it would be beings that probably have these things that it would work on.

Aliens, the exception later in the text that tells you it makes more sense for the class to be used in that kind of campaign because of the level of tech needed.

you’re the one wanting to use it on dead beings, so I thought I’d throw robots in too.

You keep saying dead but the topic is being UNdead. "Dead" is first mentioned in this thread when Nightmask and Drew commented on vampires being undead creatures. The game distinguishes between undead and dead.

It even mentions in the Eugenics section that characters can be made out of recently dead bodies =/ So that's obviously not a huge issue.

their cells are dead too. Vampires don’t get all new organs, they don’t eat food, they live on blood, they don’t need to breath air, etc something you’d need to keep a body and the cells ‘alive’. They are magical being and heal and ‘live’ via magic.

You don't need to breath air to be alive. Never heard of anaerobic organisms? Heck, surely a super power out there negates the requirement of breathing, are they suddenly not alive? Gaining your nutrition from different sources of fuel doesn't make someone unliving. Things like Psi-Stalkers in Rifts are moving towards a primarily PPE diet. In HU people who have the Bio-Ghost power live on raw life force and don't have to eat food anymore. Mega-Heroes can become energy vampires, are they dead too, or are they UNdead as the power says?

Being undead isn't being dead. It's a whole new way of being alive.

[Daniel Stoker]

A lot of supernatural creatures are also aliens. Brodkil and Gargoyles, for all their invisibility and fire-breathing and occasional stoning, are very much biological creatures.

No, those aren't aliens, those are extra-dimensional beings not creatures from another planet. The various animal headed guys from AU etc are aliens.

I suppose so. By this logic, the only race we KNOW it works on is humans. "Aliens" tells us nothing. But we can extrapolate quite easily that since it talks about DNA and genes that it would be beings that probably have these things that it would work on.

Well yes, it tells us it works on the beings from AU's in general and any one you might make from the Aliens class in the original HU2 book. (Though I'd question say the Earth version being able to work on mineral aliens though I would argue the Atorian version might be able to.)

It even mentions in the Eugenics section that characters can be made out of recently dead bodies =/ So that's obviously not a huge issue.

That's harvesting dead or bringing the thing back to life, it's not staying dead.

You don't need to breath air to be alive. Never heard of anaerobic organisms? Heck, surely a super power out there negates the requirement of breathing, are they suddenly not alive? Gaining your nutrition from different sources of fuel doesn't make someone unliving. Things like Psi-Stalkers in Rifts are moving towards a primarily PPE diet. In HU people who have the Bio-Ghost power live on raw life force and don't have to eat food anymore. Mega-Heroes can become energy vampires, are they dead too, or are they UNdead as the power says?

Being undead isn't being dead. It's a whole new way of being alive.

Humans need to breath air to be alive. We need oxygen for various organs to function and burn calories etc. No oxygen... no life. Now vampires with no new organs to digest blood, metabolize anything, etc manage to keep on trucking needing only blood to keep going. This is because they're animated by magic and the shards from an Alien Intelligence.


Daniel Stoker

[csyphrett]

And again Vampires are invulnerable to anything that isn't a specific weakness. Eugenics being a specific medical procedure will not work on them due to this.
CES

[Tor]

those aren't aliens, those are extra-dimensional beings not creatures from another planet. The various animal headed guys from AU etc are aliens.

If you're not from the dimension earth is in, you're not from earth either. Technically all the humans from the Palladium World are all aliens to Earth's humans, as we are to them.

it tells us it works on the beings from AU's in general and any one you might make from the Aliens class in the original HU2 book. (Though I'd question say the Earth version being able to work on mineral aliens though I would argue the Atorian version might be able to.)

In general still lacks specifics though, so nothing absolute. If it works on them in general it should probably work on Phase World and Palladium Fantasy races as well. Except perhaps Phantoms, since they're all energy and stuff.

That's harvesting dead or bringing the thing back to life, it's not staying dead.

Vampires don't exactly stay dead either. Nor do mummies or zombies, for that matter. Heck there are even super abilities that make you into a vampire or zombie.

You don't need to breath air to be alive. Never heard of anaerobic organisms?

Humans need to breath air to be alive. We need oxygen for various organs to function and burn calories etc. No oxygen... no life.

You're moving the goalposts here, I just disproved the claim that you need to be breathing air to be alive, clearly you don't.

Now vampires with no new organs to digest blood, metabolize anything, etc manage to keep on trucking needing only blood to keep going. This is because they're animated by magic and the shards from an Alien Intelligence.

Clearly vampires must digest blood some way, or else where does it go? Makes me wonder what happens if they swallow food.

Having a shard of an alien intelligence in you doesn't mean you're dead. The undead aren't dead. They don't seem to be classified as living all the time... but half the time undead are called 'living dead', no?

And again Vampires are invulnerable to anything that isn't a specific weakness. Eugenics being a specific medical procedure will not work on them due to this. CES

You appear to have missed out on the stereotypical example of Eugenics which shows a being floating in a tube of liquid. Is it that hard to imagine simple ways to bypass vampire invulnerabilities to work on them? You don't got no silver scalpel?

[csyphrett]

Beyond the fact that the vampire is immune like I said, anything cut away is dead and will not function without the rest of the vampire body. What good is a heart that doesn't beat? And again vampires reject anything put in them. That's why they are vampires.

The original question was will this work. The answer is no according to the rules. If you want ways to get around the rules, that's another thing entirely.

[Noon]

All True Dragons, Master Vampires, True born Werewolves, and Nightbane are Impervious to Chimera-like Eugenic modifications, (because you see actual physical changes) BUT all of them are NOT Impervious to Human-like Eugenic modifications (because you can not see the internal changes made inside their bodies). Is this possible? Hmmm.

Gotta tell me - how does 'see' make a difference?

[Daniel Stoker]

If you're not from the dimension earth is in, you're not from earth either. Technically all the humans from the Palladium World are all aliens to Earth's humans, as we are to them.

And they're D-Bee's not aliens as per the current HU rules.

]In general still lacks specifics though, so nothing absolute. If it works on them in general it should probably work on Phase World and Palladium Fantasy races as well. Except perhaps Phantoms, since they're all energy and stuff.

Depends on the races though as it's designed to be used on humans and HU Aliens.

Vampires don't exactly stay dead either. Nor do mummies or zombies, for that matter. Heck there are even super abilities that make you into a vampire or zombie.

They're not alive either. And the super power doesn't turn you into a zombie, it makes it so you can take great damage but then heal still.

You're moving the goalposts here, I just disproved the claim that you need to be breathing air to be alive, clearly you don't.

No I'm not as we're talking about humans unless you think Vampires have transformed organs etc to make them comparable to anaerobic organisms.

Clearly vampires must digest blood some way, or else where does it go? Makes me wonder what happens if they swallow food.

Don't they puke up any food they swallow? And it's magic, the blood disappears because again, they don't have new organs to deal with the lack of breathing, digesting just blood, etc.

Having a shard of an alien intelligence in you doesn't mean you're dead. The undead aren't dead. They don't seem to be classified as living all the time... but half the time undead are called 'living dead', no?

I didn't say it made them dead, I said that's what kept them moving and 'undead'. Magic through that shard.

You appear to have missed out on the stereotypical example of Eugenics which shows a being floating in a tube of liquid. Is it that hard to imagine simple ways to bypass vampire invulnerabilities to work on them? You don't got no silver scalpel?

Wouldn't they melt if it was water?

[edit]Considering how we're probably never going to get anywhere but this is interesting to me we should do a Google Hangout our something where we can chat over this and actually go back and forth as I'm thinking the text format isn't the most conducive way to go over this. Granted I don't think either of us are going to change our mind, but it could be interesting.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

Beyond the fact that the vampire is immune like I said

You keep SAYING it, but have yet to provide rules backing it.

anything cut away is dead and will not function without the rest of the vampire body.

Actually, if you cut up a vampire, I'm pretty sure the parts remain alive (undead) and can be attached together again. That's why everyone's so insistant upon burying the head separately.

Also, if you cut off parts of a human, they tend to die and not function either. Eugenics clearly bypasses that.

I would at this point like to lament how the name of this category is actually quite different from what the category is describing, since it has Frankenstein's monster type stuff which isn't itself genetic modification of the germline of a species. I can't think of a suitable alternative... Patchwork? so I may as well drop it.

What good is a heart that doesn't beat?

Necromancers have found a use for it.

vampires reject anything put in them. That's why they are vampires.

Um no, vampires are not stated as doing that. They have a very fast healing factor, sure, but nowhere does it mention that, and even if that did end up being that case, that would not be the identifying trait as vampires because there are other species with high regeneration who are not vampires. If rejecting anything put in you made you a vampire, you'd have some frustrated Regeneration: Ultimate guys out there.

The original question was will this work. The answer is no according to the rules.

Rules you haven't cited. Vampires don't expel everything. Stakes being a prime example, which have a habit of staying in there. Having bio-regeneration doesn't make you immune to transformation, and Eugenics is a kind of transformation.

they're D-Bee's not aliens as per the current HU rules.

If a D-Bee means someone not from your dimension, and alien means someone not from your world, then all D-Bees are aliens, but not all aliens are D-Bees.

Depends on the races though as it's designed to be used on humans and HU Aliens.

What, no Phase World aliens?

Vampires don't exactly stay dead either. Nor do mummies or zombies, for that matter. Heck there are even super abilities that make you into a vampire or zombie.

They're not alive either. And the super power doesn't turn you into a zombie, it makes it so you can take great damage but then heal still.

Yeah I know, kinda besides the point, category doesn't limit it to the living.

we're talking about humans unless you think Vampires have transformed organs etc to make them comparable to anaerobic organisms.

I don't claim to understand the intricacies of vampire metabolism, but whether or not someone breathes air isn't relevant here. You included the Alien category and Aliens don't have to breathe oxygen. They can come from a Toxic Atmosphere or not need to as a result of aspects of their natural biology which emulate super abilities.

Don't they puke up any food they swallow?

I'm not sure. I feel like I might have read something to that effect but can't find it.

And it's magic, the blood disappears because again, they don't have new organs to deal with the lack of breathing, digesting just blood, etc.

This is kinda moving off topic though, why would all this matter to whether or not we can alter someone's genes or merge them with other creatures?

Wouldn't they melt if it was water?

Maybe a little bit. Vampires can survive a brief period of time. I mean like a quick rinse just to melt a little bit of flesh and open them up, then we pump in some other liquid that's not pure water (maybe some Mountain Dew) while we allow them to regenerate in their new form after we've made the desired modifications.

Considering how we're probably never going to get anywhere but this is interesting to me we should do a Google Hangout our something where we can chat over this and actually go back and forth as I'm thinking the text format isn't the most conducive way to go over this. Granted I don't think either of us are going to change our mind, but it could be interesting.

I dunno, worth a shot I guess, I suck at scheduling though, my PBP GM isn't pleased.

[Daniel Stoker]

If a D-Bee means someone not from your dimension, and alien means someone not from your world, then all D-Bees are aliens, but not all aliens are D-Bees.

No, all D-Bee's are D-bee's because they come from another dimension. Aliens are beings that travel from planets in your dimension to your planet. Or you meet when you leave your planet in that dimension etc.

What, no Phase World aliens?

I'd say it depends on which ones, it wasn't designed for Rifts but for HU2.

Yeah I know, kinda besides the point, category doesn't limit it to the living.

Yes it does it doesn't mention you can change a zombie at all and it says you can use dead tissue, but doesn't ever say anything about animating the dead.

[quote=I don't claim to understand the intricacies of vampire metabolism, but whether or not someone breathes air isn't relevant here. You included the Alien category and Aliens don't have to breathe oxygen. They can come from a Toxic Atmosphere or not need to as a result of aspects of their natural biology which emulate super abilities.
[/quote]

That's ok Dr Reid does and we know from his info that they don't have any new organs. And aliens from toxic atmospheres that aren't mineral aliens which kinda blow the mold up are still respirating. (Unless they have the special Breath without Oxygen power like from the Experiment category.)

I'm not sure. I feel like I might have read something to that effect but can't find it.

Seems right, but it's been a while and I admit it, I'm to lazy to pull out my new vampire book

This is kinda moving off topic though, why would all this matter to whether or not we can alter someone's genes or merge them with other creatures?

That's me trying to point out how they're not natural and how they're not 'alive' as we know it but animated by magic.

Maybe a little bit. Vampires can survive a brief period of time. I mean like a quick rinse just to melt a little bit of flesh and open them up, then we pump in some other liquid that's not pure water (maybe some Mountain Dew) while we allow them to regenerate in their new form after we've made the desired modifications.

A quick rinse isn't going to feel good, but what does the water have to do with genetic engineering? Water isn't going to change genes and rewrite the code for the entire body etc.

I dunno, worth a shot I guess, I suck at scheduling though, my PBP GM isn't pleased.

It was an idea and might allow for some more organic conversation. What time zone are you in? I'm out in SoCal so almost everyone is later then me.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

all D-Bee's are D-bee's because they come from another dimension. Aliens are beings that travel from planets in your dimension to your planet. Or you meet when you leave your planet in that dimension etc.

If you're in another dimension, you're not on the same planet anymore.

Elves are aliens to Earth, because they originate from the Palladium World. Psi-Stalkers are aliens to Palladium, because they originate on Earth.

"Psi-X Aliens" on the otherhand, are just misnamed

it wasn't designed for Rifts but for HU2.

Regardless of which system it was designed for, unless a power category explicitly forbids a certain race from being a member of it, why shouldn't that category be available?

category doesn't limit it to the living.

Yes it does

Where is this limit expressed?

it doesn't mention you can change a zombie at all and it says you can use dead tissue, but doesn't ever say anything about animating the dead.

If it can't animate the dead I'll do it through magic, no biggy. I'm more interested in it altering the dead.

[quote=I don't claim to understand the intricacies of vampire metabolism, but whether or not someone breathes air isn't relevant here. You included the Alien category and Aliens don't have to breathe oxygen. They can come from a Toxic Atmosphere or not need to as a result of aspects of their natural biology which emulate super abilities.
[/quote]

Dr Reid does and we know from his info that they don't have any new organs.

I may need some help here, I recall him dissecting vamps in the original VK but I don't recall where it talks about him analyzing its organs. Could you clarify if this is perhaps new info exclusive to revised VK?

aliens from toxic atmospheres that aren't mineral aliens which kinda blow the mold up are still respirating. (Unless they have the special Breath without Oxygen power like from the Experiment category.)

Breathe without air is also a super ability which alien species can have inherent to their biology.

If you read 'toxic atmosphere' in detail you'll also see that it gives the option of having the species be from a planet without ANY atmosphere. It notes that these guys lack a sense of taste/smell though.

I'm to lazy to pull out my new vampire book

:(

they're not natural

Natural is a strange term with a lot of interpretations. Vampires are supernatural, if that's what you mean. I'm not sure if supernatural means 'not natural' in Palladium though, or something else. Really depends on what 'nature' means. Are alien intelligences created by nature? Isn't nature the entire universe of everything that exists?

they're not 'alive' as we know it but animated by magic.

Where does Eugenics say stuff has to be alive to be modified?

A quick rinse isn't going to feel good

Oh noes, this could be a problem since mad scientists always care about how their experiments feel.

what does the water have to do with genetic engineering?

It's simply part of the chemical soup. Some reactions are easier to have if the reagents are dissolved in water. Plus Eugenics, in spite of the name, clearly goes beyond just genetic engineering.

But hey, look at a Fetus. Floating in water. Well, liquid, but you know what I mean.

Water isn't going to change genes and rewrite the code for the entire body etc.

I don't think I implied it would, but it's a heck of a handy way to damage a creature if you want to burst it's invulnerable cell membranes to make the DNA accessible.

What time zone are you in? I'm out in SoCal so almost everyone is later then me.

EST, I can just try to hang out in the chatroom now I guess.

[Nightmask]

Tor you can't use eugenics on dead things, or undead things, because they aren't alive and don't derive what they are from life but from the magical nature of what they are. The same magic that animates them also returns them to whatever the original default is after being transformed so will simply reject efforts to non-magically modify them by restoring them to that previous state.

Some things are just common sense and arguments like 'well it doesn't say I can't' are just made of fail because of the effort to try and claim there's wiggle room when there isn't. For the vampire example nothing about them is derived from DNA but the magical essence that animates the corpse, the body is frozen as it was prior to death and conversion and those dead cells contribute nothing and nothing can be done to change them. All such efforts to modify them are going to fail as the hyper-regeneration of the vampire simply destroys or expels whatever you try to do to return them to their starting state. There does not need to be a 'this won't work on animated corpses' caveat because that's something that is self-evident.

[Daniel Stoker]

If you're in another dimension, you're not on the same planet anymore.

Elves are aliens to Earth, because they originate from the Palladium World. Psi-Stalkers are aliens to Palladium, because they originate on Earth.

"Psi-X Aliens" on the otherhand, are just misnamed

If you’re in another dimension you’re a D-bee, doesn’t’ matter what planet you’re from as you can be from Earth or Gallifrey that makes you a D-Bee. Same dimension, different planet, you’re an alien. And they Psi-X are just named that way because they look like ‘little gray aliens’.

Regardless of which system it was designed for, unless a power category explicitly forbids a certain race from being a member of it, why shouldn't that category be available?

Not regardless, the systems are different and it’s why the Glitterboy with it’s MDC isn’t going to fit in well with the other heroes who it kills with a shot.

Where is this limit expressed?

The same part where it says it doesn’t work on robots. If you’re dead the cells be rotting not dividing and doing alive things. So you can change their DNA all you want but they’re still going to be dead.

If it can't animate the dead I'll do it through magic, no biggy. I'm more interested in it altering the dead.

If you animate them through magic and not bring them back to life (Like with a resurrect spell) they’re still dead and those dead cells aren’t doing cell stuff, the body is just being animated by magic.

I may need some help here, I recall him dissecting vamps in the original VK but I don't recall where it talks about him analyzing its organs. Could you clarify if this is perhaps new info exclusive to revised VK?

Nothing in any of his analysis of them talks about new organs etc. Considering everything else he tells us about including the new silly pheromone power I’d find it odd he’d leave that out.

Breathe without air is also a super ability which alien species can have inherent to their biology.

Which is there as a work around their not breathing.

If you read 'toxic atmosphere' in detail you'll also see that it gives the option of having the species be from a planet without ANY atmosphere. It notes that these guys lack a sense of taste/smell though.

Yes, but again, a work around and not ‘scientific’ which what the definitions of being alive more are.

Natural is a strange term with a lot of interpretations. Vampires are supernatural, if that's what you mean. I'm not sure if supernatural means 'not natural' in Palladium though, or something else. Really depends on what 'nature' means. Are alien intelligences created by nature? Isn't nature the entire universe of everything that exists?

Since they’re called supernatural I’d say it kinda shoots the idea out of the water that they’re natural.

Where does Eugenics say stuff has to be alive to be modified?

Same place it says it doesn’t work on robots. If they’re not alive the cells aren’t doing what cells do.

]Oh noes, this could be a problem since mad scientists always care about how their experiments feel.

Yes and when your subject is melting that causes issues.

It's simply part of the chemical soup. Some reactions are easier to have if the reagents are dissolved in water. Plus Eugenics, in spite of the name, clearly goes beyond just genetic engineering.

Ok, but unless the water is doing something then the rest of the chemicals don’t matter because they can’t be hurt by chemicals and adjusting they’re DNA is ‘damage’ even if it may be positive.

I don't think I implied it would, but it's a heck of a handy way to damage a creature if you want to burst it's invulnerable cell membranes to make the DNA accessible.

Except they’re all invulnerable, not just cell membranes. Otherwise when you hit them with an MDC hammer the organelles etc would get damaged.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

Tor you can't use eugenics on dead things, or undead things, because they aren't alive

Only if the Eugenics category states that it is limited to affecting living beings. Someone has yet to supply any such statement.

and don't derive what they are from life but from the magical nature of what they are.

Undead derive what they are from both. Obviously at least their appearance is based on their original genetic template.

The same magic that animates them also returns them to whatever the original default is after being transformed

Source?

so will simply reject efforts to non-magically modify them by restoring them to that previous state.

Source? Vampires aren't immune to transformation like Atlanteans or Nightbane.

Bio-regeneration does not bestow an immunity to transformation.

From what dark hole is this conclusion being pulled from?

Some things are just common sense and arguments like 'well it doesn't say I can't' are just made of fail

You're not applying any common sense here. If there was a rule in Palladium stating "you can't be altered if you heal faster than X" we could apply that.

You're inventing a rule, not applying common sense.

because of the effort to try and claim there's wiggle room when there isn't.

A rule forbidding it would omit wiggle room.

Right now I don't even NEED to wiggle, because no statements against it have been supplied.

For the vampire example nothing about them is derived from DNA

Yet another falsehood from you Nightmask. Their physical appearance certainly is. As are some aspects of their personality.

but the magical essence that animates the corpse, the body is frozen as it was prior to death and conversion and those dead cells contribute nothing and nothing can be done to change them.

Incorrect, vampires are not immune to transformation, so vampires CAN be changed. Please stop making rules declarations on the spot. You can be GM of your own games, you aren't the GM of canon.

All such efforts to modify them are going to fail as the hyper-regeneration of the vampire simply destroys or expels whatever you try to do to return them to their starting state. There does not need to be a 'this won't work on animated corpses' caveat because that's something that is self-evident.

You keep asserting that bio-regeneration prevents transformation, that isn't the case. That isn't how bio-regeneration works.

There could be SOME aspects of Eugenics which won't work for vampires. For example, if I cut off a vampire's arm and sewed a bear's arm there, the original arm would bioregenerate and push the new arm off.

Not all of Eugenics involves amputation though. Vampires obviously won't need the whole 'replacement organs' option within Eugenics. But they could have their organs altered.

No ability of vampires prevents 600K being spent on the 'Brain Enhancement' option.

You seem to be arguing that if I do brain enhancement (PU2pg19) on a vampire, it's bio-regeneration will expel the brain and make a new brain, or some other nonsense.

No rules support such a conclusion.

If you’re in another dimension you’re a D-bee, doesn’t’ matter what planet you’re from as you can be from Earth or Gallifrey that makes you a D-Bee. Same dimension, different planet, you’re an alien.

I know. I don't really think we're disagreeing here. I'm just saying that by nature, all d-bees are aliens relative to whatever they're d-bees relative to, because you can't be from the same planet if you're from a different dimension, even if it's just an alternate version of the same planet.

And they Psi-X are just named that way because they look like ‘little gray aliens’.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at, what did you think I meant? =/

the systems are different and it’s why the Glitterboy with it’s MDC isn’t going to fit in well with the other heroes who it kills with a shot.

The discussion isn't about what fits in with what. It's about the restrictions of a power category. If there aren't racial restrictions for Eugenics, they can plausibly be applied to any species with the appropriate physiology.

Obviously any species lacking a brain (like Phantoms, or Elementals) can't get a 'brain enhancement' of course. Can't mod what you don't got.

The same part where it says it doesn’t work on robots.

That doesn't work bro. Vampires can cast magic and robots can't. Well... most robots. There might be some spell-casting robot out there who I'm forgetting.

If you’re dead the cells be rotting not dividing and doing alive things.

Spells don't have to be alive to divide. How else could undead bio-regenerate but through cell division? The undead do not generally "rot" as you say. Some do, if neglected (like Dead Reign guys who don't get PPE) but regardless of whatever rot issues they may deal with, they do heal, and healing is a big indicator of cellular activity.

So you can change their DNA all you want but they’re still going to be dead.

That's fine, dead with modified DNA are useful.

If you animate them through magic and not bring them back to life (Like with a resurrect spell) they’re still dead and those dead cells aren’t doing cell stuff, the body is just being animated by magic.

Dead cells still do 'stuff' Daniel, and you have no grounds on which to make assumptions about the cellular activities of the undead here.

Nothing in any of his analysis of them talks about new organs etc. Considering everything else he tells us about including the new silly pheromone power I’d find it odd he’d leave that out.

What on earth do you mean by 'NEW organs'? I asked if there was new info about him analyzing organs, not if vampires grew new organs.

You started this by claiming "Vampires don’t get all new organs" as if such a claim were in any way relevant. I never claimed vampires got new organs. But where does it say they LOSE their original organs?

Breathe without air is also a super ability which alien species can have inherent to their biology.

Which is there as a work around their not breathing.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I have supplied direct proof that you don't need to 'breathe' to be 'alive'. That's all I was doing here, since you claimed otherwise.

a work around and not ‘scientific’ which what the definitions of being alive more are.

By saying "the definitions of being alive more are scientific" (or something along those lines) what does this have to do with your backpedaling to escape your claim about breathing?

Breathing (oxygen or any other substance) isn't needed to be considered a living being. I beat you, so you may as well drop that line.

You said "they don’t eat food, they live on blood, they don’t need to breath air" .. "something you’d need to keep a body and the cells ‘alive’."

These are not always needed to keep bodies and cells alive. It doesn't matter if you call exceptions to this work-arounds or not.

It's also quite an irrelevant line of discussion because we know vampires are undead, not alive. But the undead do have active cells, since they bio-regenerate and move around under their own power. That's what's important.

Since they’re called supernatural I’d say it kinda shoots the idea out of the water that they’re natural.

It depends on what supernatural means to Palladium, and what 'natural' means in this context. "Superhuman" for example doesn't mean "not human" but rather "human+extra". So "supernatural" could mean "natural + extra".

We should only go by Palladium definitions of what supernatural/natural mean and not various dictionaries, considering it's special meaning as a classification in this system.

Where does Eugenics say stuff has to be alive to be modified?

Same place it says it doesn’t work on robots. If they’re not alive the cells aren’t doing what cells do.

Could you help find that part? Are you telling me that "it says it doesn't work on robots which means by extension it doesn't work on undead" or are you telling me "it says it only works on the living, and does not work on robots or the undead, explicitly" ? I'm unclear on what you're saying here, which is why I'd like to read it for myself.

Pg 18 mentions "not generally compatible with cybernetics and bio-systems". I appear to be unable to locate any mention of 'Robots' in the Eugenics section, so could you point that out for me?

when your subject is melting that causes issues.

I'm not going to melt ALL of them. It's like with surgery, you open up the outside sometimes to get easier access to the inside.

unless the water is doing something then the rest of the chemicals don’t matter because they can’t be hurt by chemicals and adjusting they’re DNA is ‘damage’ even if it may be positive.

Adjusting DNA is not damage if I'm making them better. Transformations don't work that way. Vampires regenerate lost HP, they don't regenerate metamorphosis. Changes are not damage, you're making a huge stretch here.

If regenerating hit points reversed genetic engineering then you could go to the hospital and heal away all Eugenics.

If you're talking about bypassing invulnerability, it's a small enough issue. DNA can be altered in a lot of ways. If I can't do it with silver-tipped nanobots, vampires can be hurt by magic so whatever means you use, a Eugenics process can just be enchanted via things like Techno-Wizardry (or even an Enchant Weapon spell) to be able to move or damage their cells as needed.

they’re all invulnerable, not just cell membranes. Otherwise when you hit them with an MDC hammer the organelles etc would get damaged.

Like I said though, I'm not making water my only approach. Water isn't specific enough to do rewriting anyway. It's just a cheap process to rip away the first line of defense to the nucleus. The rest of it would be done through other means, and there are means enough to harm vampires that it would be possible to incorporate them into Eugenic procedures.

[Nightmask]

Tor you can't use eugenics on dead things, or undead things, because they aren't alive

Only if the Eugenics category states that it is limited to affecting living beings. Someone has yet to supply any such statement.

Strange, I've yet to see you supply a statement that it can affect non-living things since it's you who must supply proof that it can.

and don't derive what they are from life but from the magical nature of what they are.

Undead derive what they are from both. Obviously at least their appearance is based on their original genetic template.

A fallacious argument, their appearance has absolutely nothing to do with their abilities or limitations.

The same magic that animates them also returns them to whatever the original default is after being transformed

Source?

Where's your source that it doesn't? Since the evidence says that it does.

so will simply reject efforts to non-magically modify them by restoring them to that previous state.

Source? Vampires aren't immune to transformation like Atlanteans or Nightbane.

Bio-regeneration does not bestow an immunity to transformation.

From what dark hole is this conclusion being pulled from?

That's really edging at the line there using such a derogatory way of asking that, and given Eugenics is NOT a transformation (magical or otherwise) but genetic modification and/or surgical implantation of extra organs and as undead like Vampires are immune to such things you can't modify them period. Even if their dead cells somehow gave them powers (which they don't) you can't change them because their regeneration would repair the damage and make them normal again, just as you can't put in new tissue because it's a foreign material and you aren't going to fool a magical healing factor into accepting such material.

Some things are just common sense and arguments like 'well it doesn't say I can't' are just made of fail

You're not applying any common sense here. If there was a rule in Palladium stating "you can't be altered if you heal faster than X" we could apply that.

You're inventing a rule, not applying common sense.

You're the one inventing the rule given I never said that, IF you ever bothered to actually respond to the entirety of my posts instead of dicing them up like a politician's spin-doctor.

because of the effort to try and claim there's wiggle room when there isn't.

A rule forbidding it would omit wiggle room.

Right now I don't even NEED to wiggle, because no statements against it have been supplied.

*laughs* The fact you keep trying to claim there's actual support for your position that you can genetically modify vampires already carries with it a massive effort on your part to try and make wiggle room for a position that has no validity.

For the vampire example nothing about them is derived from DNA

Yet another falsehood from you Nightmask. Their physical appearance certainly is. As are some aspects of their personality.

Tor, seriously, give it a rest. Appearance has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion nor whatever personality that the vampire has, it is not a lie to state that nothing about the vampire derives from DNA because it doesn't, it's all about the magic animating them and not gross physical characteristics. So you really need to stop trying to make people out as liars and tossing out red herrings because you can't come up with a valid argument that actually addresses the points involved.

but the magical essence that animates the corpse, the body is frozen as it was prior to death and conversion and those dead cells contribute nothing and nothing can be done to change them.

Incorrect, vampires are not immune to transformation, so vampires CAN be changed. Please stop making rules declarations on the spot. You can be GM of your own games, you aren't the GM of canon.

Tor stop making these rules declarations that Eugenics is transformations rather than being genetic modifications and surgical alterations, this is a discussion of what's canon and not how you rule things to be in your games.

All such efforts to modify them are going to fail as the hyper-regeneration of the vampire simply destroys or expels whatever you try to do to return them to their starting state. There does not need to be a 'this won't work on animated corpses' caveat because that's something that is self-evident.

You keep asserting that bio-regeneration prevents transformation, that isn't the case. That isn't how bio-regeneration works.

No Tor YOU keep calling Eugenics transformations and then try and bootstrap that into meaning vampires can be affected by it. Never have I made the erroneously claim that Eugenics is a transformation rather than being a genetic or surgical alteration of a subject. Nor have I erroneously tried to make it out that Regeneration like vampires have allows for modification of their very dead tissue. Vampires are immune to nearly everything including toxins and disease because they're animated dead; AIDS will not infect the cells nor will Sarin nerve gas trouble them for even a moment. There is nothing in the nature of Eugenics that can remotely affect their cells because of their immunities and regenerative nature. Their cells don't even DO anything, it's the magical force animating them that's doing everything. To claim otherwise is not even remotely acknowledging what is canon.

There could be SOME aspects of Eugenics which won't work for vampires. For example, if I cut off a vampire's arm and sewed a bear's arm there, the original arm would bioregenerate and push the new arm off.

Not all of Eugenics involves amputation though. Vampires obviously won't need the whole 'replacement organs' option within Eugenics. But they could have their organs altered.

No ability of vampires prevents 600K being spent on the 'Brain Enhancement' option.

You seem to be arguing that if I do brain enhancement (PU2pg19) on a vampire, it's bio-regeneration will expel the brain and make a new brain, or some other nonsense.

No rules support such a conclusion.

Resorting to another range of fallaces I see, since that's not what I stated at all, the nonsense is on your end that you think the vampire's dead and worthless brain could be modified or that those modifications would have any affect on its intelligence. You can't modify the brain in the first place, it's going to repair the damage as fast as you inflict it.

If you want living vampires in your campaign that can be genetically modified by Eugenics that's up to you but the canon abilities of vampires from their immunities to their regenerative nature is going to prevent ALL attempts at eugenics, so that $600K spent on brain enhancements is going to be wasted money because they'll never succeed in modifying the organ in the first place and the magical animating force no more makes use of that brain for thinking than it does the lungs to breath.

[Brayon]

I'm in agreement with Nightmask on this one...

I don't know of any GM, in my years of playing, that would allow Genetically Modified Vampires. Not even in a Cuddly Vampire the Masquerade campaign.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I don't know why this topic is still running since the ideas are cycling back to the points I brought up early on about 'why it will not work'.

[csyphrett]

I don't know why this topic is still running since the ideas are cycling back to the points I brought up early on about 'why it will not work'.

Because Tor insists on rules modifications that he knows won't work since he has read the material like all the rest of us.
CES

[Daniel Stoker]

I know. I don't really think we're disagreeing here. I'm just saying that by nature, all d-bees are aliens relative to whatever they're d-bees relative to, because you can't be from the same planet if you're from a different dimension, even if it's just an alternate version of the same planet.

No, if you're from another Dimension it doesn't matter what planet you're from, you're a D-bee not an alien.

[quoteThe discussion isn't about what fits in with what. It's about the restrictions of a power category. If there aren't racial restrictions for Eugenics, they can plausibly be applied to any species with the appropriate physiology.

Obviously any species lacking a brain (like Phantoms, or Elementals) can't get a 'brain enhancement' of course. Can't mod what you don't got.
[/quote]

The point I was making was that the stuff isn't going to always be compatible because of the power levels.

That doesn't work bro. Vampires can cast magic and robots can't. Well... most robots. There might be some spell-casting robot out there who I'm forgetting.

And there are a bunch of races from Rifts that can't cast magic. So that doesn't really matter.

Spells don't have to be alive to divide. How else could undead bio-regenerate but through cell division? The undead do not generally "rot" as you say. Some do, if neglected (like Dead Reign guys who don't get PPE) but regardless of whatever rot issues they may deal with, they do heal, and healing is a big indicator of cellular activity.

Well that's the point, vampires aren't alive and use magic to keep animated. I was pointing out as well why you can't use Eugenics on dead flesh and needed it to be alive.

That's fine, dead with modified DNA are useful.

Not when the cell you changed can't do anything because it's dead.

Dead cells still do 'stuff' Daniel, and you have no grounds on which to make assumptions about the cellular activities of the undead here.

No, dead cells don't do stuff, they wouldn't be dead if they were still doing stuff. And the fact that they die and are animated by magic makes it good grounds for an assumption.

What on earth do you mean by 'NEW organs'? I asked if there was new info about him analyzing organs, not if vampires grew new organs.

The new ones they'd need to digest blood only and live on it, to see in the dark, to have their super strength. It's part of why we have proof that they're animated by magic and not alive with cells doing cell stuff.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I have supplied direct proof that you don't need to 'breathe' to be 'alive'. That's all I was doing here, since you claimed otherwise.

Except toxic air creatures DO breath. Just a toxic gas. Breath Without Air is the work around to dealing with those creatures and have different organs to deal with not breathing or the toxic atmosphere, something vampires who don't need to breath don't have.

You said "they don’t eat food, they live on blood, they don’t need to breath air" .. "something you’d need to keep a body and the cells ‘alive’."

These are not always needed to keep bodies and cells alive. It doesn't matter if you call exceptions to this work-arounds or not.

It's also quite an irrelevant line of discussion because we know vampires are undead, not alive. But the undead do have active cells, since they bio-regenerate and move around under their own power. That's what's important.

Tor, you need that to keep a human alive. Vampires which were human don't get new organs allowing them to bypass the need to breath or eat etc. That's why we know in part that they're not living beings. They keep moving with human bodies and organs even when they do stuff that would kill a human and NOT keep them alive with no natural way outside of magic animating them to do so.

Could you help find that part? Are you telling me that "it says it doesn't work on robots which means by extension it doesn't work on undead" or are you telling me "it says it only works on the living, and does not work on robots or the undead, explicitly" ? I'm unclear on what you're saying here, which is why I'd like to read it for myself.

Pg 18 mentions "not generally compatible with cybernetics and bio-systems". I appear to be unable to locate any mention of 'Robots' in the Eugenics section, so could you point that out for me?

I'm still waiting for you to show where it doesn't work on robots since it doesn't say that. You want to know where it doesn't say it works on the undead and I'm pointing out another type of creature it doesn't say it won't work on that I think we all agree it probably doesn't work on.

Adjusting DNA is not damage if I'm making them better. Transformations don't work that way. Vampires regenerate lost HP, they don't regenerate metamorphosis. Changes are not damage, you're making a huge stretch here.

Yes it is, you're changing it from state a to state b, something you can't do if you can't damage it in some way.

If regenerating hit points reversed genetic engineering then you could go to the hospital and heal away all Eugenics.

If you're talking about bypassing invulnerability, it's a small enough issue. DNA can be altered in a lot of ways. If I can't do it with silver-tipped nanobots, vampires can be hurt by magic so whatever means you use, a Eugenics process can just be enchanted via things like Techno-Wizardry (or even an Enchant Weapon spell) to be able to move or damage their cells as needed.

It's not even regenerating, it's doing the damage to effect them in the first place. If you can't effect them with a 'lot' of damage why would a 'small' amount work? And can you PLEASE stop taking half of sentences and responding to that, then another part, then another, it's just getting silly and making these posts even longer.

Like I said though, I'm not making water my only approach. Water isn't specific enough to do rewriting anyway. It's just a cheap process to rip away the first line of defense to the nucleus. The rest of it would be done through other means, and there are means enough to harm vampires that it would be possible to incorporate them into Eugenic procedures.

Such as what? What are you using that can damage the vampire to rewrite their DNA?


Daniel Stoker

[KillWatch]

Science and Supernatural do not mix by mortals

[Tor]

Tor you can't use eugenics on dead things, or undead things, because they aren't alive

Only if the Eugenics category states that it is limited to affecting living beings. Someone has yet to supply any such statement.

Strange, I've yet to see you supply a statement that it can affect non-living things since it's you who must supply proof that it can.

Incorrect. You are the one making a claim here (that eugenics can't be used on dead things, that eugenics can only be used on living things, that eugenics can't be used on undead). Since you're making the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

I have never asserted that we can definitely used Eugenics on dead or undead creatures. Only that the possibility exists since it's not ruled out, that who Eugenics works on was never clearly defined. It initially uses 'human' phrasing only to open the door by saying it's used all over the place by unspecified others besides humans.

and don't derive what they are from life but from the magical nature of what they are.

Undead derive what they are from both. Obviously at least their appearance is based on their original genetic template.

A fallacious argument, their appearance has absolutely nothing to do with their abilities or limitations.[/quote]Strawmanning argument, I was talking about a genetic template, not abilities. Vampires are of a fixed appearance in their normal form because that appearance is based on their genetic template. Also a wrong assertion, appearance can influence abilities/limitations (for example, the ability to charm/impress, whether or not you can get a skill bonus or a penalty to seduce).

The same magic that animates them also returns them to whatever the original default is after being transformed. The evidence says that it does.

What evidence?

That's really edging at the line there using such a derogatory way of asking that

Not at all, I have a great admiration for the Black Abyss ability of the Unholy, it's the only spell I know where you have to be a certain level to cast it.

Eugenics is NOT a transformation (magical or otherwise) but genetic modification

Genetic modification is transformation. I'm not sure what distinction you're making here.

and/or surgical implantation of extra organs and as undead like Vampires are immune to such things you can't modify them period.

Where are vampires or other undead stated to be immune to the surgical implantations of extra organs?

Vampires regrow limbs, so if you cut off their arm at the elbow and put a bio-system or bionic arm there, the old limb would regrow and push it off. So long as you're not REPLACING part of the vampire though, regeneration would not expel it. Attaching new limbs or modifying existing ones would not explicitly be reverted by healing factor or bio-regeneration.

Even if their dead cells somehow gave them powers (which they don't)

When you say they don't, are you referring to normal vampires (in which case, the powers come from magic) or vampires made of beings with genetic powers?

you can't change them because their regeneration would repair the damage and make them normal again, just as you can't put in new tissue because it's a foreign material and you aren't going to fool a magical healing factor into accepting such material.

Not all 'change' is 'damage', false equivalence. Regeneration heals wounds, it doesn't reject new parts of the living organism. If this were the case then things like symbiotes could not exist.

Some things are just common sense and arguments like 'well it doesn't say I can't' are just made of fail

You're not applying any common sense here. If there was a rule in Palladium stating "you can't be altered if you heal faster than X" we could apply that. You're inventing a rule, not applying common sense.

You're the one inventing the rule given I never said that, IF you ever bothered to actually respond to the entirety of my posts instead of dicing them up like a politician's spin-doctor.[/quote]Night, you've consistently presented your 'common sense' opinions phrased in a way as if it represented canon and not how you would prefer things, or how you draw indirect interpretations from vague ideas in canon. I dice, but I don't spin, so your observation's misleading. Better to dice than to twist or ignore.

The fact you keep trying to claim there's actual support for your position that you can genetically modify vampires already carries with it a massive effort on your part to try and make wiggle room for a position that has no validity.

I need no support for my position, it's the default. Becoming a vampire isn't mentioned as stripping you of DNA, ergo, they still have it, and it can be modified by anything which can bypass their invulnerability to mundane things.

Your position seems to be that this isn't possible due to assumptions based on abilities vampires don't have. Those who hunt vampires (Atlanteans, sometimes Nightbane) are immune to transformations, but vampires are not.

Nightbane regenerate faster than a vampire does on average, yet they explicitly have immunity to transformations as an RCC ability. If regeneration alone meant immunity, it would not have been necessary to include the ability. It directly contradicts your assumption that a fast regeneration means you can't be genetically altered. Nightbane could be genetically altered, for all their healing factor, if they lacked their immunity to transformation (well, assuming they had genes, that is, they might not in their Morphus)

For the vampire example nothing about them is derived from DNA

Yet another falsehood from you Nightmask. Their physical appearance certainly is. As are some aspects of their personality.

Tor, seriously, give it a rest. Appearance has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion nor whatever personality that the vampire has

Appearance and personality both have genetic contributions, that is science. It does have something to do with it, and your chiding doesn't negate that. I provided 2 examples of how a vampire retains things which have genetic causes.

it is not a lie to state that nothing about the vampire derives from DNA because it doesn't, it's all about the magic animating them and not gross physical characteristics.

A vampire's appearance is based on the person they once were, which was an aspect of their DNA, appearance is not purely magic or else vampires would bear no resemblance to their former selves, nor inhabit their previous bodies.

So you really need to stop trying to make people out as liars and tossing out red herrings because you can't come up with a valid argument that actually addresses the points involved.

My argument is largely pointing out the lack of supporting argument for restrictions you're attempting to introduce to this category which aren't in PU2.

Tor stop making these rules declarations that Eugenics is transformations rather than being genetic modifications and surgical alterations, this is a discussion of what's canon and not how you rule things to be in your games.

Some aspects of Eugenics are transformative in nature and those are the ones I'm talking about.

I already mentioned (and have never denied) that certain aspects of the Eugenics category (such as REPLACING body parts) would not work since the original body parts would come back.

No Tor YOU keep calling Eugenics transformations and then try and bootstrap that into meaning vampires can be affected by it.

It seems obvious that a lot of stuff is transformative in nature. Something doesn't have to be a transformation for it to affect a vampire, it's just an easy catch-all term.

The specific verbs (including adjective forms) used in Eugenics include "augment, change, enhance, alter, modify, tweak, reconstruct", and none of these seem prohibitive.

If vampires can be affected by something big-sounding like transformation, why would they not be affected by something more minor like a tweak?

If we review some of these abilities, pg 22 has 3 different kinds of bio-regeneration, one of which matches a vampire's 2d6/melee. If healing that quickly prohibited Eugenics, then if this was the first modification a Eugenics class got, they couldn't get any other ones afterward, yet there's no such limitation. Vampires' super-regen restores what is lost, but it doesn't mention rejecting the new that is gained.

Never have I made the erroneously claim that Eugenics is a transformation rather than being a genetic or surgical alteration of a subject.

True, you didn't say 'transform' specifically, that's me paraphrasing what Eugenics basically is.

Or would a True Atlantean be able to benefit from all of these?

Nor have I erroneously tried to make it out that Regeneration like vampires have allows for modification of their very dead tissue.

I don't think I alleged you did. Quite the opposite, I am getting the impression that bio-regeneration is thought by some to impede modification, not allow it.

There is nothing in the nature of Eugenics that can remotely affect their cells because of their immunities and regenerative nature.

Like when you say that.

Vampires are immune to nearly everything including toxins and disease because they're animated dead; AIDS will not infect the cells nor will Sarin nerve gas trouble them for even a moment.

Some assumptions are being made here. Where does it say that vampire immunity to disease/toxin is due to being animated dead? Surely that immunity could be a benefit specific to vampires and not an inherent property of being undead (slightly different from being animated dead, actually).

It's quite besides the point though. Being immune to diseases or toxins isn't relevant here because Eugenics don't necessarily require one to be vulnerable to such things to benefit from the modifications.

Their cells don't even DO anything, it's the magical force animating them that's doing everything. To claim otherwise is not even remotely acknowledging what is canon.

I acknowledge what is canon, not what you assume is canon. When you state vampire cells don't do anything: where does canon say that? Magical forces are certainly involved somehow, but that doesn't mean that cells are inactive. You'd have us believe that muscle cells are just dead meat when vampires move around? That cells are dormant and bio-regeneration occurs by the spontaneous abiogenesis of new cells instead of the division of old ones? I suppose I can't rule out the possibility (and vampires are odd creatures who only bleed from their hearts, whatever that blood does) but that just means the reality of the situation is up in the air, not that it's been confirmed or denied. Vampires cells may or may not be active. DNA may or may not matter. With nothing to the contrary though, the only changes I assume vampirism has made to a species are the stated ones though. So unless there's a reason to support the assumption for dormant cells/DNA, I will view them as active like they normally are in pretty much everything else.

Resorting to another range of fallaces I see, since that's not what I stated at all

If we're going to accuse each other of fallacies I think it's only fair to do so individually and specifically, rather than just label a vague 'range'.

the nonsense is on your end that you think the vampire's dead and worthless brain could be modified or that those modifications would have any affect on its intelligence.

Vampire's brains are not "dead" and "worthless" as you allege, that's opinion leaking in again. It serves standard functions like allowing vampires to see and hear and taste, even think. There's a reason that cutting off a vampire's head and burning it in another pyre causes it a lot more trouble than doing so with its hand.

You can't modify the brain in the first place, it's going to repair the damage as fast as you inflict it.

You keep labelling modifications as 'damage' but there's no support for this. Changes are not inherently 'damage'. If I give a vampire a magic object that allows it to APS Stone, it's not going to be all "oh no, I'm changing, must be DAMAGE" and start healing it. Improvements are not damage. I could only see reversion occurring if changes were deleterious, not beneficial.

If you want living vampires in your campaign that can be genetically modified by Eugenics that's up to you but the canon abilities of vampires from their immunities to their regenerative nature is going to prevent ALL attempts at eugenics, so that $600K spent on brain enhancements is going to be wasted money because they'll never succeed in modifying the organ in the first place and the magical animating force no more makes use of that brain for thinking than it does the lungs to breath.

You keep saying canon, yet you provide no canon that forbids the modification of undead creatures. Eugenic creatures do not have to be alive. I mean heck, page 35 has several explicit options for 'resurrected corpse' variants including "animated corpse" and "blood drinking vampire". I don't know how much clearer they can make it, these limitations are all in your imagination. No matter how much you've insisted that a vampire's immunities and bio-regeneration prevent this, you haven't provided evidence supporting that.

There are ways around immunities (such as techno-wizardry) to allow genetics technology to affect them. Bio-regeneration and being (un)dead are clearly not limiters since there are already examples of Eugenics with such attributes. You can be dead before and after eugenics. You can be a super-healer before and after eugenics. Nowhere do such things limit the procedures.

The only eugenics I'd agree about them being unable to get would be complete replacements of existing body parts, anything with the phrasing "replace" (such as hoofed feet and serpentine lower body, on page 27) since replacement requires amputation of original parts, which wouldn't last with a vampire. So vampires couldn't benefit from a lot of eugenics, but they could benefit from anything that amplified existing parts, or added new ones, just not replacements.

[drewkitty ~..~]

This is still going on?