Animate & Control Dead question...

[Nekira Sudacne]

It seems pretty clear you have to see the corpeses to raise them. once raised, you don't have to keep an eye on them.

[Goliath Strongarm]

It seems pretty clear you have to see the corpeses to raise them. once raised, you don't have to keep an eye on them.

That's what I think, too. But it was argued to me that they had to stay within the line of sight the whole time or control ended.

I've always gone with the initial raising, and any time you want to issue commands. Remember, they aren't that smart, so most commands must be pretty straight forward. Any time you want to issue new commands, IMO, you need to be LOS.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It seems pretty clear you have to see the corpeses to raise them. once raised, you don't have to keep an eye on them.

That's what I think, too. But it was argued to me that they had to stay within the line of sight the whole time or control ended.

I've always gone with the initial raising, and any time you want to issue commands. Remember, they aren't that smart, so most commands must be pretty straight forward. Any time you want to issue new commands, IMO, you need to be LOS.

what about in a modern game when you can give them helmets with built in radio?

[Goliath Strongarm]

It seems pretty clear you have to see the corpeses to raise them. once raised, you don't have to keep an eye on them.

That's what I think, too. But it was argued to me that they had to stay within the line of sight the whole time or control ended.

I've always gone with the initial raising, and any time you want to issue commands. Remember, they aren't that smart, so most commands must be pretty straight forward. Any time you want to issue new commands, IMO, you need to be LOS.

what about in a modern game when you can give them helmets with built in radio?

Think Dresden Files. Magic and Tech don't mix so well (unless MAYBE with a specialty, like techno-wizard). The magic makes the tech go on the fritz and not work.

And even BETTER with that- if you want it to be able to work- what if someone had a recording of the wizard giving a different set of commands (say, from a different point in time, or maybe a computer generated version?) and tapped into the frequency?

[Nekira Sudacne]

It seems pretty clear you have to see the corpeses to raise them. once raised, you don't have to keep an eye on them.

That's what I think, too. But it was argued to me that they had to stay within the line of sight the whole time or control ended.

I've always gone with the initial raising, and any time you want to issue commands. Remember, they aren't that smart, so most commands must be pretty straight forward. Any time you want to issue new commands, IMO, you need to be LOS.

what about in a modern game when you can give them helmets with built in radio?

Think Dresden Files. Magic and Tech don't mix so well (unless MAYBE with a specialty, like techno-wizard). The magic makes the tech go on the fritz and not work.

never seen Dresden Files. that is a possibility, although i'm not sure if there's enough metal in a radio to interfear with magic.

And even BETTER with that- if you want it to be able to work- what if someone had a recording of the wizard giving a different set of commands (say, from a different point in time, or maybe a computer generated version?) and tapped into the frequency?

now THAT is a much better question. I don't know off the top of my head.

[Goliath Strongarm]

never seen Dresden Files.

Don't. Read the books. For the love of all that's holy and unholy, read the books. Forget the crap that was aired. Forget it I said!

that is a possibility, although i'm not sure if there's enough metal in a radio to interfear with magic.

Doesn't matter if it's metal- it matter's if it's technology. THAT is the kicker. In Dresden, anything that's 1950's-ish tech works "ok" (not great, mind you, but ok) around magic, anything newer starts to go wonky. And the more powerful the mage and magic, the quicker and bigger the blowout. His car is a beatup old VW beetle, that's just ancient enough that he doesn't have "a lot" of problems with it (at least from that). Radios, while old enough in technology, are one thing- but the miniaturization required are waaaay too new of technology for something that powerful of magic to work right around.

And even BETTER with that- if you want it to be able to work- what if someone had a recording of the wizard giving a different set of commands (say, from a different point in time, or maybe a computer generated version?) and tapped into the frequency?

now THAT is a much better question. I don't know off the top of my head.

So many options.. and as a horribly cruel, sadistic, and wicked GM.. if my players didn't think of it, I wouldn't mention it to them. But damn, if my NPCs knew that the players were going to be using something like this? Oh yes, they would definately think of it! BWAHHAHAHAHA!!!!

[Nekira Sudacne]

what about in a modern game when you can give them helmets with built in radio?

I think it would be too much trouble to do that.

First, you'd need to get matching helmets for all of them.

why would they have to be matching?

Then, you'd need to arrange it so that the radio was always on (because they couldn't switch it on or off)

So...turn it on...and don't tell them to turn it off? they tend to stay on without further imput

And then you'd have to worry about the radios getting jammed or being out of range. And then, on top of it, you'd also have to worry about someone tracing the transmission back to you.

Not really a big worry either of them. the goal isn't to remain hidden, just to control them from a distance. and if they do jam the signal? eh, they're just zombies. And nothing of value was lost.

[Nekira Sudacne]

NS: "what about in a modern game when you can give them helmets with built in radio?"

LS: "I think it would be too much trouble to do that. First, you'd need to get matching helmets for all of them."

why would they have to be matching?

Well, it depends on how technical the GM wants to get. Basically, different equipment is going to operate differently if you're talking about two-way radio communication. If they all have different radios then it might be difficult to get them to all accept the same transmission frequency.

Do you actually know how radios work? it's exactly as difficult as getting two radios sitting next to each-other to tune in to the same radio station. I.E. Not even trivially difficult. you could pay a child a candy bar to do it. why would you need a two-way setup. Do you think your zombies have anything interesting to say?

LS: "And then you'd have to worry about the radios getting jammed or being out of range. And then, on top of it, you'd also have to worry about someone tracing the transmission back to you."

Not really a big worry either of them. the goal isn't to remain hidden, just to control them from a distance. and if they do jam the signal? eh, they're just zombies. And nothing of value was lost.

Why go through all the elaborate (and potentially expensive) trouble to get helmets when you can just tell them to do something? ie. "Go attack anyone wearing armor like this..."
If you're using radio commands to control them and someone else jams the signal, there goes your attack and all that effort wasted.

I think your idea is very creative; I just don't think its practical.

[/quote]

Err...how much trouble is "buy a bunch of of helmets"? It's not. it's an hours trivial effort you can do while your out grabbing food from a supermarket. or just have a friend or minion do it for you. It's not elaborate, it's dirt simple and requires virtually no time and effort.

As for money...your a mage...in a modern setting. If you arn't already sitting on a small fortune your doing it wrong.

[The Beast]

Do you actually know how radios work? it's exactly as difficult as getting two radios sitting next to each-other to tune in to the same radio station. I.E. Not even trivially difficult.

We're not talking about listening to music on the radio. We're talking about encrypted military technology. I gurantee you that the military of whatever country you live in does not use a open citizen band radio for their transmissions.[quote]

Depending on the mage it would have to be that simple. Not every class can take Radio: Scramblers.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Do you actually know how radios work? it's exactly as difficult as getting two radios sitting next to each-other to tune in to the same radio station. I.E. Not even trivially difficult.

We're not talking about listening to music on the radio. We're talking about encrypted military technology. I gurantee you that the military of whatever country you live in does not use a open citizen band radio for their transmissions.

[/quote]

Unless you, like order them from wilks to come that way. or any of the other non-govermental companies that make them and sell them to civilians. If the helmet would be hard to set up, then buy a different helmet. not like quality is a big concern here.

why would you need a two-way setup. Do you think your zombies have anything interesting to say?

They are all two-way by default. Also: not zombies; animated dead.

Not sure why it makes a difference, you use them both in the same way: expendable cannon fodder.

LS: "Why go through all the elaborate (and potentially expensive) trouble to get helmets when you can just tell them to do something? ie. "Go attack anyone wearing armor like this..."
If you're using radio commands to control them and someone else jams the signal, there goes your attack and all that effort wasted.

I think your idea is very creative; I just don't think its practical."

Err...how much trouble is "buy a bunch of of helmets"? It's not. it's an hours trivial effort you can do while your out grabbing food from a supermarket. or just have a friend or minion do it for you. It's not elaborate, it's dirt simple and requires virtually no time and effort.

Well, first of all, these are expendable animated dead; not zombies that you're going to keep around to do your bidding. I don't see the point in shelling out a bunch of cash for something that you're just going to throw away anyhow. Animated Dead, particularly in Rifts, are more of an annoying distraction to the enemy: big deal, blow them away with a few shots and you're done.

I'm really not sure how your drawing a distinction between the animate dead and zombies. you don't really want to keep either around.

The cheapest armor out there is Plastic Man armor @ 18,000 CR. There's no official breakdown on how much the helmet costs if you bought it seperately, so I'm going to guess 3000 CR. If you had 10 animated dead, that's 30,000 CR that you're just flushing down the toilet.

Where did I say the helmet had to be MDC? It could be a bycycle helmet with a Zune duct taped to the side. your missing the point for the details. if buying MDC plastic man helmets is too much trouble and expense, buy cheeper helmets.

Also, unless one is a Necromancer, Animate & Control Dead is more of a convenience spell ie. "Let's animate these dead bodies and send them back to their base." Are you going to carry around a bunch of helmets just in case you find a bunch of bodies?

Depends on if you travel or not, really. I've played in several games where the PC's never really left the starting city.

As for money...your a mage...in a modern setting. If you arn't already sitting on a small fortune your doing it wrong.

That's a question of personal economic philosophy.[/quote][/quote]

weather or not it's too much trouble is itself a matter of personal philosphy. I think your making it a lot more complicated htan the idea really is. of course it's not going to be useful in every situation, but I never said it would be either. I said if you want to command them from outside of line of sight it's easy to set up, not that it can be done at any time for no effort.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm on the side of Pan... um ... I mean, J.L. Duncan. Reading the spell there are a few other things to note as well.

... mentally control them like a puppet master would a marionette.

First, let's think about that image. Can a pupper master tell a marionette what to do and then walk off? Or does he need to stay there and control them? It continues to say ...

The remains are not alive and do not have any intelligence.

Note, they have no intelligence. Not just stupid and can only follow simple commands, but NO intelligence, as in 0.

It is the sorcerer who controls their actions.

Controls, not commands. You effectively have to mentally pull their strings the entire time.

Added note: Since this is about the spell, I'd also like to point this out from PF2 (as well as HU2) ...

2. The animated dead must remain in his line of vision. If it cannot be seen, it cannot be animated or controlled.

Note there's a key second part of that one listed.

Though, on a personal note, until this question came up and I looked at the books for the answer, I had always run it as them being animated and sent off (line of site not required). *Shrugs.* I'll probably still run it that way too. But, the question was regarding the book answer. As a result, I found this thread enlightening, because I hadn't known that before. Go figure.

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm on the side of Pan... um ... I mean, J.L. Duncan. Reading the spell there are a few other things to note as well.

... mentally control them like a puppet master would a marionette.

First, let's think about that image. Can a pupper master tell a marionette what to do and then walk off? Or does he need to stay there and control them? It continues to say ...

The remains are not alive and do not have any intelligence.

Note, they have no intelligence. Not just stupid and can only follow simple commands, but NO intelligence, as in 0.

It is the sorcerer who controls their actions.

Controls, not commands. You effectively have to mentally pull their strings the entire time.

Added note: Since this is about the spell, I'd also like to point this out from PF2 (as well as HU2) ...

2. The animated dead must remain in his line of vision. If it cannot be seen, it cannot be animated or controlled.

Note there's a key second part of that one listed.

Though, on a personal note, until this question came up and I looked at the books for the answer, I had always run it as them being animated and sent off (line of site not required). *Shrugs.* I'll probably still run it that way too. But, the question was regarding the book answer. As a result, I found this thread enlightening, because I hadn't known that before. Go figure.

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Well, since I don't use it much, I guess it's not shocking I never noticed that. RAW, it is what it is... But, relooking at this spell...

This spell can't be what was used in the SoT storyline. I think they used the ritual, create zombie. Throw a couple of zombies into MDC body armor, and BAM.. there ya go. They can be given instructions and actually leave the side of their maker.


As for the A&C spell, this pretty much negates the "animated skeletons" in any dungeon, ever, unless the mage is in the room with them. BLECH. Pointless and worthless. IMO, needs the house rule that they can be "turned on" and left in place, with one simple (and I mean a "kill anyone who comes in here besides me" simple) instruction. Otherwise, they become a sideline decoration, only good for the showdown with the mage, and not usable anywhere else.

[Prysus]

Well, since I don't use it much, I guess it's not shocking I never noticed that. RAW, it is what it is... But, relooking at this spell...

Greetings and Salutations. At work, so no access to my books. Forgive lack of page numbers, inaccuracies, and/or grammar mistakes.

I never used the spelll before either, except once for a NPC villain who had the group meet him in a graveyard. When the group got there they found a bunch of graves dug up. Once they were in his trap, he just animated the entire cemetery. Totally not by the book apparently, but a lot of fun all the same.

This spell can't be what was used in the SoT storyline. I think they used the ritual, create zombie. Throw a couple of zombies into MDC body armor, and BAM.. there ya go. They can be given instructions and actually leave the side of their maker.

Agreed completely.

As for the A&C spell, this pretty much negates the "animated skeletons" in any dungeon, ever, unless the mage is in the room with them. BLECH. Pointless and worthless. IMO, needs the house rule that they can be "turned on" and left in place, with one simple (and I mean a "kill anyone who comes in here besides me" simple) instruction. Otherwise, they become a sideline decoration, only good for the showdown with the mage, and not usable anywhere else.

Well, it definitely limits the spell, but I don't think as much as you seem to think.

1: Decent in a fight. Level 7 wizard? 14 skeletons, 2 attacks each, that's 28 attacks per melee and nothing suggesting the mage doesn't get his usual apm as well. Most likely to encounter at the big showdown, but has other applications.

2:Good decoys. Going to a bar to meet some stranger (or someone familiar who you think might be hostile)? Suit up the dead, and pretend it's you. It'll be animated, so movement can be real. Add in a radio (to speak from), or use of the Ventroliquism spell and you have a perfect stand in. Now when Han shoots first, Gredo gets the last laugh.

3: have the mage use Fly, soar over the area controlling his undead minions from the sky. Unless they look up there, they can search the ground all they want. In a setting such as PF, seeing the mage doesn't even mean they can do anything about it (depending on level and capabilities). The mage can send in a wave of undead to wipe out the town that didn't pay his extortion fees. Great entrance for the PC to meet the big bad, and this is just a first encounter.

4: Here's where it gets tricky. If it's just line of sight, can you use video equipment to extend your range? How about Remote Viewing or a spell equivalent? If you think not, then how about this one: Cast Astral Projection (yes, it's a spell too). You're there in Astral form, so just walk them in!

Now, for the skeletons in a dungeon ...

A: Can Zombies be skeletons? Not the classic image, but what does the spell allow?

B: Bone Fiends from Land of the Damned books. I think that's the right monster and book.

C: Forgotten/lost magic from the Time of a Thousand Magicks or before the Purification.

D: I like Little Snuzzles idea of Wards. Probably not in the book as is, but thinking Permanancy Ward, where the undead constantly heals (even after death), and can only be stopped by destroying the ward (if you know about it AND if you can find it on the skeleton).

Anyways, just a few ideas from a few minutes of thought on the subject. Hope some of that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

I think Duncan is right about the word 'remain', although I am prone to liking ideas about extending 'line of sight' via things like video monitors.

If not them, then at LEAST via familiars links.

. In the Coalition Wars books, it talks about Tolkeen mages animating the bodies of dead CS troops and sending them back to their bases.

seems that Kevin and others writers took some liberties with how the spell can be applied when writing Coaltion Wars.

I remember something like this in one of the SoT books I think but not which of the 6 nor which page. If anyone recalls this it would be helpful.

Do we know it is necessarily the normal animate and control dead spell? Perhaps all the CS troops could have been turned into mummies? Or maybe the temporary zombies in TTGD? Those are long-lasting options than Animate Dead because that doesn't seem like it would even last long enough to trek back to base. I'm not going to suggest the normal Create Zombie ritual since that has timing constrains on creation.

If it is the normal spell I say they just sent a familiar pigeon along to extend a wizard's vision, and it left after the skeletons got killed off.

[Subjugator]

I'm having a hard time with the early mentions of how the spell is said to work.

If they must *remain* within line of sight, that indicates not that they must initially be in the line of sight, but that they must stay within that limit as well.

/Sub

[cornholioprime]

BOM, pg. 114.

Range: 400 feet (122m); line of vision

Restrictions:

2. The animated dead must remain in his line of vision; if it cannot be seen, it cannot be animated.

I don't use this spell very often, but it came up in a game recently and I'm asking for your feedback on it:

The way I read it is that to intitially animate the dead, they must be within the line of vision and/or range of the spell. But once they are animated, they can be sent well outside of the range of the spell. In the Coalition Wars books, it talks about Tolkeen mages animating the bodies of dead CS troops and sending them back to their bases.

What's your take on this issue?

That ONE word right there, "remain," indicates that they have to.....well......remain in the line-of-sight of the caster to continue to use them.

Technically, the official text in the SoT overrides the words of the spell since the SoT is "newer" than the wording of that spell; I believe, however, that for the purposes of gameplay the Authors intended for the spell to work in the way that the OP wrote -that is, "fire and forget" -but the words of the spell were poorly written -the spell seems to me to be pretty useless otherwise in a combat context.

[Mallak's Place]

BOM, pg. 114.

Range: 400 feet (122m); line of vision

Restrictions:

2. The animated dead must remain in his line of vision; if it cannot be seen, it cannot be animated.

I don't use this spell very often, but it came up in a game recently and I'm asking for your feedback on it:

The way I read it is that to intitially animate the dead, they must be within the line of vision and/or range of the spell. But once they are animated, they can be sent well outside of the range of the spell. In the Coalition Wars books, it talks about Tolkeen mages animating the bodies of dead CS troops and sending them back to their bases.

What's your take on this issue?

That ONE word right there, "remain," indicates that they have to.....well......remain in the line-of-sight of the caster to continue to use them.

Technically, the official text in the SoT overrides the words of the spell since the SoT is "newer" than the wording of that spell; I believe, however, that for the purposes of gameplay the Authors intended for the spell to work in the way that the OP wrote -that is, "fire and forget" -but the words of the spell were poorly written -the spell seems to me to be pretty useless otherwise in a combat context.

There is a differance between the regular Invocation Spell and the Necromancers Ability to do the same. Dead animated by Necromancers can be given "Simple Missions" that take them beyond the casters Line-of-Sight.

[Tor]

A lesser known benefit for necromancers, yay.

Also worth noting that the alternate Necromancer OCC (Obscuruphim) in Shadows of Light also allows them to be sent off. There's actually no range limit at all for animating them, although ones within 300ft get a bonus vs Turn Dead.

Of course there is the sucky aspect of your skeletons turning to dust after the duration ends, sucks for reusable minions.

[Tor]

SoT text doesn't override the spell description if there is a plausible explanation on how it could be done using the description (and there is, send a familiar to scout them)

Dead animated by Necromancers can be given "Simple Missions" that take them beyond the casters Line-of-Sight.

Source?

It's right under the ability. Mystic Russia pg 90: "must be in the spell caster's line of vision in order to animate" .. "can also send his dead puppets on simply missions .. these missions can be sent them wandering out of his sight, swinging and smashing everything that gets in their way"

The one detail that isn't clear to me is when you send them out of line of sight, are the skeletons still limited by the 300ish radius? Or is that range just for initial animation and there is no max range for sending them?

[Prysus]

Mystic Russia pg 90: "must be in the spell caster's line of vision in order to animate" .. "can also send his dead puppets on simply missions .. these missions can be sent them wandering out of his sight, swinging and smashing everything that gets in their way"

That's my point: There is nothing (in my mind that I remember from the text) that says they can leave the casters line of site. It doesn't directly say in the text ...

Greetings and Salutations. I trimmed the quotes to help focus the comments. If you look at the second half of Tor's quote, it mentions "wandering out of sight" on their missions. This is located in the third bullet point on the page.

I find the write-up in PF3: Adventures on the High Seas even more useful. Page 34, third bullet point (again).

In this special case, it no longer matters whether the necromancer is in view, present, or even conscious.

This sentence is not in Rifts, but does still contain the "wandering out of his sight" quote. Though it does mention this as a "special" case, so this isn't something that can normally be done (Necromancers only).

Mind you, the examples are very basic commands, and executed with basically no intelligence whatsoever. So you can't tell them to find Player X and bring you his head, nor to walk into the camp and then push the button to activate the bomb you strapped to them. These are far too complicated of orders. This examples indicate it's closer to a kid's toy where you flip the switch (like a toy that walks). It doesn't recognize who is in front of it, doesn't change directions, etc.

Tell the skeleton to destroy and send him on his way. He'll try to destroy everything in his path. That means if he comes across a M.D.C. wall, he'll stand there trying to destroy it (even if just using S.D.C. weapons) until the spell elapses. Placing it at an entry way and telling it to guard might work. Of course, it'll just attack whatever tries to come through the door. If the player characters walk right passed it and don't try to use the door, it probably wouldn't even bother them. On the other hand, if the Necromancer's son, girlfriend, apprentice, or anyone else tried to enter, it would attack without recognition or consideration.

Anyways, hope some of that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

That's my point: There is nothing (in my mind that I remember from the text) that says they can leave the casters line of site. It doesn't directly say in the text; and the spell description (as I said on my first post and as others have said as well) states that the animations must "remain" within the casters line of vision.

Allowing animations to exist outside the spells range or casters line of vision is outside of canon. Unless, someone can site and/or quote text that states otherwise.

Duncan I am describing the Necromancer's OCC ability, not the spell Animate and Control Dead. You asked for a source when Mallak told you that Necromancers could do this.

Normal spellcasters with the inferior AACD spell clearly can't send them on missions outside range of sight. But Necromancers themselves using their OCC power CAN.

I find the write-up in PF3: Adventures on the High Seas even more useful. Page 34, third bullet point (again).

In this special case, it no longer matters whether the necromancer is in view, present, or even conscious.

Also interesting to know. I don't suppose Adventures in the High Seas clarifies if the range applies only to initial summoning or if it also means that if you try to send the skeletons on a pursuit mission outside of the range, they'd fall apart?

[Prysus]

interesting to know. I don't suppose Adventures in the High Seas clarifies if the range applies only to initial summoning or if it also means that if you try to send the skeletons on a pursuit mission outside of the range, they'd fall apart?

Greetings and Salutations. It doesn't say outright. However, if we read that special ability it does give clues/implications.

1: In both it mentions they'll continue until destroyed, or the duration ends. It doesn't mention them wandering out of range and falling apart. As such, I can't imagine it being a restriction.

2: In the AotHS quote, it mentions the Necromancer doesn't have to be "present" for them to continue. If they have to stay within range, then they DO have to be present, don't they?

I think this is a case where we can say the range doesn't apply, due to what IS written and what is NOT written, even if they don't spell it out. That's at least my opinion. Hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Tor]

"Present" might be interpreted to mean 'line of sight' though, so I was initially not sure. If the range is given for 'animate and control' it's not clear if the range is both for ongoing animation and ongoing control, or initial animation and initial control.

The full statement being "in view, present of conscious" it's clear that present doesn't refer to line of sight (since that's what view does) so I can't think of anything besides that for it to mean other than range.

So yeah I'm going to say initial range, not range during duration for missions. The PPE is spent upfront, if there were ongoing PPE costs then I'd want them in range, but I figure range would only have to be re-established to animate after the duration expired.

[arouetta]

Reading the invocation Animate and Control Dead spell, it states "If it cannot be seen, it cannot be animated or controlled."

So Necromancers get lucky. Once their dead things are up, there's not a range limit, just a time limit.

[Tor]

Not so lucky, I mean they do have the whole 'I will forever have a horror factor, can't benefit from Life Blast, and will be targetted by genocidal biomancers" tradeoff.