Carpet of Adhesion

[arouetta]

In my game, I had a player that came up with a devastating way of destroying NPCs. Carpet of Adhesion, Cloud of Slumber. Rinse and repeat. It forced me to get creative.

Last night, I had two new players (one new to roleplaying, one new to Palladium), and they bordered on hack and slash. So, I used that combination on them. They had to figure out how to break out of captivity once they were awake and figure out how to break back into the building quietly enough as to not encounter the pesky mage again.

The experienced but new to Palladium player said he hated the magic and that it was a mean trick to throw at first level players. I told him that those two spells are accessible to a first level Wizard and he was shocked. He commented that Carpet of Adhesion was overpowered. I've always considered it annoying as all hell, but never really overpowering. What's everyone's opinion?

[SmilingJack]

Lol,

Last Saturday I had a player literally cast this and devastate a central villain

I think it really is a strong spell and can cause havoc

However as A GM you can have the NPC negate the effects or be resistant

But yes it can be maddening!

I always reward my players for doing things that are awesome and completely dominate a scenario,

It reminds me of the glitter boy in rifts

Sometimes it's cool to have something so overpowered,

It makes it exciting and cool to know you have something powerful in reserve

[Bill]

Just tagged half my Rifts group with carpet of adhesion. They aren't thrilled by it.

[Killer Cyborg]

In Magic: The Gathering, one of the ways that they can tell if a particular card is overpowered is if the vast majority of winning tournament decks rely on it.

In Rifts, I'd say that if a particular spell is picked by the vast majority of magic using PCs, then it's probably overpowered. And from what I've seen, CoA is that kind of spell.

[Marrowlight]

Or it's just fun. OK sure, a lil overpowered perhaps, maybe. But in a spellbook of drab and conventional, it jumps out of you and screams "pick me, pick me".

[13eowulf]

I find it a bit overpowered for its level and availability.

To resolve this I change the spell so that a successful save means the victim is not stuck. Then I add a 'Carpet of Adhesion, Greater' that is available as a level 8 spell that functions as the as-written spell, but for double the PPE cost.

[flatline]

As a player, I have never created a character with that spell because I don't like the mechanics of it.

If I were GM'ing a game and a player took the spell, I would allow it, but I would probably change how it works.

You should compare Speed of the Snail with Carpet of Adhesion. Compare their level, cost, range, and duration and ask yourself if you would ever choose to use the 9th level spell over the 4th level spell. Clearly, one is either overpowered or the other is underpowered.

--flatline

[Goliath Strongarm]

You should compare Speed of the Snail with Carpet of Adhesion. Compare their level, cost, range, and duration and ask yourself if you would ever choose to use the 9th level spell over the 4th level spell. Clearly, one is either overpowered or the other is underpowered.

Yes, there ARE times that I choose SoS over CoA. Both are very unique spells that do entirely different things. Honestly, I'm more the "stack'em up" spells- I'd use BOTH. Throw down SoS, and then a CoA right in front of them.

As was pointed out, CoA isn't going to change a LOT of things. Ranged combat (and if you're in RIFTs, that's the majority of combat). If the enemies are spread out, your chance of catching them all isn't great. Doesn't do squat against flying enemies. In short, all it's going to do is give you time to widen the distance.

SoS is going to actually SLOW them down. It's also going to cut the number of attacks, which is a HUGE advantage. If you had 6 attacks, you now have 2. Which means I took the advantage from you, and either made that equal, or gave myself the advantage. If dodge is pretty much negated by CoA, they can still parry. SoS is going to hurt their chances at that. SoS is also going to slow the guys who managed to make their save and work their way out of the CoA. Also, CoA is going to be a certain area, and affect those that run into it. SoS allows me to choose my targets- I can prioritize! So that Commander in the backrank, that sees other people get stuck, so manages to avoid the Carpet? He's my choice for SoS...

BOTH spells have their purposes and uses. Are there times one is more useful than the other? Sure. But, when playing a caster (or running an NPC caster against the PCs), I'm evil- I THINK. Which gee, are what spellcasters SHOULD be doing.

[Goliath Strongarm]

I don't blame them; as I said the spell can present some challenges-

As can a whole lot of spells in the hands of smart, creative, THINKING players. Not just CoA.

I'll stick to level 5 and below... and I even won't go over 10 PPE. And these are still just as potentially "disrupting" as CoA. If I go outside of the 10 PPE, there's more.. hell, there's more UNDER 10 PPE, I just didn't do a lot of thinking.. this was first glance stuff

Globe of daylight (especially in 1st edition)- that entire "fight the vampire" campaign- yeah, it's over with.
Turn Dead (that necromantic horde? Don't worry about them...)
Breathe without Air (we can stay down there looking for that sunken stuff at the bottom of Loch Ness for however long we need/want)
Swim as a Fish
Any of the Impervious to spells
Deflect
Seal
Shadow Meld
Watchguard
Weight of Duty
Domination
Eyes of Thoth
Escape
Horrific Illusion
Horror
Superhuman Strength
Superhuman Speed

And so many more. Honestly, if that one spell is ruining the entire campaign, it's piss-poor work on the GMs fault for not considering what his players have. Secondly, if that little bit is undoing it all, it sounds like it was probably a poorly written game.

Have I had portions of a game dusted up because of creative use of spells? Absolutely. And I marked the good idea block for the player on the exp sheet, and kept on trucking. Have I ever had an entire adventure (or campaign) screwed up because of creative use of spells? Not once. And of the good GM's I've met over the years, none of them have either.

I tend to find that the people that disallow certain spells, or certain magics, are usually the people who don't like magic in their games anyway, and discourage people from playing mages (but won't come out and say "no magic users"). They also don't reward mages as well, and constantly make them PAY for new spells/circles/etc, while allowing the fighter-types to find mass quantities of weaponry. But there's no preference, right?

If you can't handle the game, step away from the table. While I can say I've seen every spell from PF used, I honestly can't say that about Rifts BoM, but I have seen a whole hell of a lot of them used (especially in other settings), and not had the problems that you seem to think exist in CoA.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Well what you have said is a bold statement.

Wouldn't be the first time. But I stand by it.

Carpet of Adhesion as an invocation has got a lot of attention because of it's ability to change out comes at a single casting-by more people than just me, because of it's game changer ability.

As a lot of spells can be game changers, when used creatively. As can a glitterboy. Or a magic sword. Or a decent level WP skill. Or a skill used to figure out weaknesses of a creature. ANYTHING, when not taken into account, is a game changer.

however the fact that you can save against it and still suffer some of the effects is a rare. Off hand I can't think of a spell that offers this distinction. Which is why many have modified or changed the impact that the spell can have. There may be others but I would kindly ask if those that can think of another spell to post it up to further this conversation.

Spell, save, effects if save is made

Cloud of smoke, NO SAVE, if in the cloud -5 strike, parry, dodge, entangle, disarm
Sense Magic, NONE, anything magic you have (including you, possibly) are detectable like a geiger counter.
Thunderclap, save VS HF (for only one part), even with save it's going to give the caster perks
Climb, n/a, who needs the climb skill?
Breathe without Air, none, toxins/poisons/etc that are in the air don't matter, unless magical in nature. Environmental oxygen concerns are gone
Invisibility (either), none, can only be overcome with certain things, like see the invisible
Astral Projection, none, multiple uses- see the psychic ability
Deflect, NONE, can parry any ranged attack, including lasers and missile volleys
Multiple Image, -4 to save, even if the person saves and can tell which is the real one, the caster is still getting bonuses
Seal, NONE, a portal (door, window, etc) is held magically closed. And at higher levels, the caster can do all such portals in an AREA
Shadow Meld, NONE, good luck finding the caster. Even if you know what shadow he's in, you're taking penalties to try to hit him
Death Curse, NONE, a LOT of penalties. A "powerful" GOD has a 21% chance of lifting the curse. No one else can remove it.
Energy Disruption, NONE, shut down all the tech in an area
Lifeblast, (mostly) NONE, effect varies on target
Mental Blast, vs psionics, if save made, target only takes half damage, and no disorientation


I stopped with level 5 spells... would you like me to keep going? I did NOT include spells that aren't a save vs magic but would still be negated with a save (like energy bolt, which is a dodge).

So yes, I stand by what I said before. If that one spell is causing such problems, it's ---- poor planning on the GMs part.

Most here know me well enough that magic is my preference. Not a fan of tech (and I primarily play PF, not RIFTs). That being said, creative use of magic is always a PLUS in my games. Any fool can point a weapon and pull a trigger- it takes THINKING to use magic! Especially with spells other than direct damage (call lightning, fireball, etc)

[Goliath Strongarm]

Spell, save, effects if save is made

Cloud of smoke, NO SAVE, if in the cloud -5 strike, parry, dodge, entangle, disarm.
Thunderclap, save VS HF (for only one part), even with save it's going to give the caster perks
Breathe without Air, none, toxins/poisons/etc that are in the air don't matter, unless magical in nature. Environmental oxygen concerns are gone
Invisibility (either), none, can only be overcome with certain things, like see the invisible
Deflect, NONE, can parry any ranged attack, including lasers and missile volleys
Multiple Image, -4 to save, even if the person saves and can tell which is the real one, the caster is still getting bonuses
Seal, NONE, a portal (door, window, etc) is held magically closed. And at higher levels, the caster can do all such portals in an AREA
Shadow Meld, NONE, good luck finding the caster. Even if you know what shadow he's in, you're taking penalties to try to hit him
Energy Disruption, NONE, shut down all the tech in an area
Lifeblast, (mostly) NONE, effect varies on target
Mental Blast, vs psionics, if save made, target only takes half damage, and no disorientation

I would think that most players in a combat situation prefer to use carpet of adhesion and/or not have it used against them over most of the spells you’ve listed. Which was my point of why it was a game changer vs. other magic invocations.

As a player, I would much rather have the enemy caster wasting time with a CoA than say, a fireblast, or a call lightning, or a shield-type spell, or an armor spell, etc. Gives me time to kill him.

(and not the other non-combat ones you listed; though they do fit the condition of my request):

This post, see the edited list, directly useful in combat... didn't really change much, did it? And that's not to say the ones I took off are NOT useful in combat, but just that these are more directly useful...

[Goliath Strongarm]

By what you've left any spell could useful in combat; I think that understand that. Even the ones from the original list.

Exactly right, most spells are useful in combat.And ablot have effect with save, or have no save.. Just because CoA is more commonly used by no means makes it the only, or the best. H

Which is why I shake my head when people gripe about it. It is NOT overpowered compared to others. It's just more common, that's all.

[Noon]

In my game, I had a player that came up with a devastating way of destroying NPCs. Carpet of Adhesion, Cloud of Slumber. Rinse and repeat. It forced me to get creative.

Last night, I had two new players (one new to roleplaying, one new to Palladium), and they bordered on hack and slash. So, I used that combination on them. They had to figure out how to break out of captivity once they were awake and figure out how to break back into the building quietly enough as to not encounter the pesky mage again.

The experienced but new to Palladium player said he hated the magic and that it was a mean trick to throw at first level players. I told him that those two spells are accessible to a first level Wizard and he was shocked. He commented that Carpet of Adhesion was overpowered. I've always considered it annoying as all hell, but never really overpowering. What's everyone's opinion?

I think it's uninteresting when used in combo with the sleep spell - too much of an automatic I win button, if you just interpret the COA in a generous way. I'd be inclined to figure less generous interpretations of the spell, to make it merely threatening and a solid power combo.

Take your play example - now if you're players are the batman type and knock out every foe they meet, okay, that makes some sense. But if they kill everyone, why is the enemy being ever so nice and taking them prisoner (and in such a way that they then get to escape and try it all over again)

It's too much of an I win, followed by breaking NPC characters motivations, followed by a dues ex.

[arouetta]

I had used the same two spells that my experienced player uses because I wanted to break the new players out of the "hack-and-slash" mindset, get them thinking things through. That's why they were tied up and thrown in a corner and ignored until they break free. That way it became cat and mouse, as they had to finish the original mission without alerting the entire building.

I personally don't think it's overpowered, like I said, I just consider it annoying, maybe because the fighters have more variety in their combat than the mages do. Between the two mages (a wizard and a necromancer), I can name the first four spells without listening. Carpet of Adhesion and Cloud of Slumber from the wizard, Summon the Dead and Animate and Control Dead from the necromancer. Every single combat. Someone PMed me about Tectonic Entities, I think they're going to have to show up in the near future. I don't want the game to turn into GM vs Players, but a little variety in the spell casting would be nice.

[Noon]

I had used the same two spells that my experienced player uses because I wanted to break the new players out of the "hack-and-slash" mindset, get them thinking things through.

I know it happened because you wanted it to.

Once players figure that out, it goes south quickly - basically it turns into 'do anything the GM doesn't like and they will bring things in not because they'd happen in the game world that way, but to teach the players to only do things the GM's way'.

[42dragon]

Yes, CoA can be one overpowering spell. If it is allowed to be used with no restrictions. I.E. casting wrapped around something or directly onto the head and wings. In my game I have always ruled that it must be cast on a steady surface of some type, floor, ceiling, wall, rock, ect. And it cannot be cast directly under something. This forces my players to still be able to use the spell, but they have to be creative on how they get their opponents to get stuck. Not just a simple, I CoA around you. You are stuck and we get to freely shoot you even if you saved.

[arouetta]

I had used the same two spells that my experienced player uses because I wanted to break the new players out of the "hack-and-slash" mindset, get them thinking things through.

I know it happened because you wanted it to.

Once players figure that out, it goes south quickly - basically it turns into 'do anything the GM doesn't like and they will bring things in not because they'd happen in the game world that way, but to teach the players to only do things the GM's way'.

I won't run a hack and slash game. I'd rather melt my dice and burn my GM book. So either the player instigating it and I come to an accommodation or there won't be a game. He started using his brain while still staying true to the character concept, and the brand new roleplayer followed his lead, both with the hack and slash and with the thinking.

[arouetta]

I personally don't think it's overpowered, like I said, I just consider it annoying, maybe because the fighters have more variety in their combat than the mages do.

Really? Doesn't every fighter pretty much start combat with "I draw my weapon and start attacking"?

How is this any different?

My group just lost its two fighter types due to the players' real life stuff, but the players never used the same pat attack over and over. Different tactics, using landscape, grappling, I could never guess what they were going to come up with when they asked for layout description. Totally different from the players running the mages. Which was odd because outside of combat, it was the complete opposite. The players playing mages did most of the flavor stuff and most of the clue gathering and plot figuring and leading, while the players running the fighters rarely got involved.

[Killer Cyborg]

I personally don't think it's overpowered, like I said, I just consider it annoying, maybe because the fighters have more variety in their combat than the mages do.

Really? Doesn't every fighter pretty much start combat with "I draw my weapon and start attacking"?

How is this any different?

My group just lost its two fighter types due to the players' real life stuff, but the players never used the same pat attack over and over. Different tactics, using landscape, grappling, I could never guess what they were going to come up with when they asked for layout description.

Sounds like people I'd like to game with!

Totally different from the players running the mages. Which was odd because outside of combat, it was the complete opposite. The players playing mages did most of the flavor stuff and most of the clue gathering and plot figuring and leading, while the players running the fighters rarely got involved.

Okay, so it sounds like you were commenting on your group's players specifically, not "tech characters" and "mages" in general, which it kind of sounded like initially.
This makes a lot more sense.

[Noon]

I had used the same two spells that my experienced player uses because I wanted to break the new players out of the "hack-and-slash" mindset, get them thinking things through.

I know it happened because you wanted it to.

Once players figure that out, it goes south quickly - basically it turns into 'do anything the GM doesn't like and they will bring things in not because they'd happen in the game world that way, but to teach the players to only do things the GM's way'.

I won't run a hack and slash game. I'd rather melt my dice and burn my GM book. So either the player instigating it and I come to an accommodation or there won't be a game. He started using his brain while still staying true to the character concept, and the brand new roleplayer followed his lead, both with the hack and slash and with the thinking.

I'd suggest just talking with the players and saying the game you're prepared to run, rather than forcing events in game to try and teach them.

[Goliath Strongarm]

I'm agreeing with Noon. As both a player and a GM, I'd rather have conversation about role play vs roll play any day. The gm vs player gaming sucks, and when I've played in other people's games, that has caused me to walk away. If its the setting and scenario It's one thing, but when it's revenge gaming, no thanks.

As a GM, I've found that using the NPCs as an example of what I want and expect, and telling the players that, it's a thousand times more effective.

NPC reactions also help. You're a mage who just throws CoA and lightning bolts? Bleh. Have an alchemist that talks down to him. But, if he's creative and interesting in spell use, "I like your style and the way you think. You're a credit to wizardry! I'm willing to give you a 5% discount on spell training."

[Subjugator]

CoA on a helicopter rotor would snuff it...the rotor would stop spinning. Ditto turbine mounts on a jet.

Ohhh...a high level version named 'curtain of adhesion' could actually conjure a physical curtain of the stuff in front of a flying enemy.

/Sub

[Tor]

I think CoA effectiveness depends on the tier of opponent.

If you have a bunch of guns and you cast it on a pure melee enemy, then yeah...

But if you cast it on a guy who has a couple laser cannons and a full e-clip, they can keep shooting you. Their lack of dodge isn't going to matter much if they just simultaneous attack you.

[Alrik Vas]

CoA is busted with the way it's assumed to function. That doesn't mean it's impossible to deal with, but in comparison to most other spells in that level range it has one distinct advantage.

It roots you to the ground.

Cloud of smoke? Oh, i'll run out of it. CoA prevents this.

Shadow Meld? I'll retreat and hide as well and wait for them to come out of hiding...oh, wait, CoA would prevent that too.

They're invisible? I'll retreat again...oh wait, CoA

CoA'd me? It's okay can still shoot...oh crap, they moved behind me...

When used well, Carpet of Adhesion is devastating. When used poorly it takes only a slight adjustment to make it devastating. Even if movement were "easy" in Rifts, Carpet of Adhesion would still be tantamount to killing your opponent unless they can phase or teleport or something.

No, it doesn't take that much thinking to play a mage. It takes a lot of thought to fight a mage when you have no magic.

[Tor]

You're still left with the 'what is ground' dilemma. What happens when it's cast on a mobile carpet, or a light sheet of snow, or ice that may melt, or mud that easily separates even if it clings to your shoe.

[Damian Magecraft]

You're still left with the 'what is ground' dilemma. What happens when it's cast on a mobile carpet, or a light sheet of snow, or ice that may melt, or mud that easily separates even if it clings to your shoe.

the spell has an AOE and a range.
It stays put on whatever "surface" it was placed after those have been set.
RUE page 187

In most cases, once the spell is cast and the Area Of Effect is established it can NOT be moved.

Emphasis is not mine but the books.
And the "ripping" up of the surface under the carpet? has everyone forgotten what happens if you make your save? Thats right... you can continue to move (albeit at a reduced pace) this would represent that struggling to extricate ones self from the "rooting" effect through sheer force of will and "brute strength."

[Tor]

Your statements aren't actually answering the dilemma. I completely agree that it stays put on whatever 'surface' it's placed on, but we're left wondering "what is the surface?"

Is what happens here that a person's feet are attached to the surface itself? Or is it attached to a magical IMMOVABLE carpet which is resting on the surface?

The question then becomes: does a carpet make the surface immovable? Is a CoA fixed in space? Does the carpet follow the surface? Does it remain behind if the surface is moved?

The ability to make the save is an entirely different process. That's overcoming the spell. That process works identically whether the carpet is cast on sand, a carpet, or an indestructible adamantium floor.

If we assume that carpets move with their surface (which is kinda implied since otherwise they wouldn't rotate along with the planet) and you could say, be attached to a truck bed and driven around fixed to it, then the character's mobility is only limited by the immobility the surface is cast upon.

So for example, if CoA was cast on a rug that weighed 5 pounds, you should be able to (regardless of magic saves) deform that rug by scrunching your feet together and stuff. This would be harder if the rug were glued to the ground or if heavy objects were placed on its ends, of course.

An interpretation that provides fewer options like this would be to treat the CoA as a separate objects (a sticky magical flat plane which cannot be deformed) which simply rests on top of (and equally affixes itself) to whatever surface is it cast on.

This option would prevent the scrunching-strategy by people standing on the carpet (since they couldn't actually exert force on the carpet, not actually touching it) but the option still exists for other external parties to move the surface which the CoA is attached to. Driving the truck, pulling the rug.

You could also rule that while the surface could be moved by touching it directly, which would in turn move the CoA, that you could not actually move the CoA otherwise.

So if I was standing on top of a 5lb rug with a CoA on top of it, underneath a chinning bar, and I could do a chin with 500 additional pounds (because I am an Ogre, and they are buff) I still could not lift myself, because even though the rug weighs 5lbs and I could normally lift that, the CoA is fixed in space and has unlimited pull to resist me from moving.

But if, on the other hand, rather than exerting force on my Ogre, someone simply slid a platform underneath the rug the CoA was cast on, they could deadlift the platform and I could reach the bar that way. At which point if I grabbed hold, the rug would presumably stay elevated.

[dragonfett]

There is also speed to consider when casting CoA. Suppose a mage casts CoA directly in the path of an oncoming Fury Beetle. Does the Fury Beetle's strength, speed, and mass cause the top most layer of the surface CoA was cast upon just suddenly rip up or does it stay immobile as the Fury Beetle has whatever limb got snagged by the CoA ripped off of it?

[Damian Magecraft]

There is also speed to consider when casting CoA. Suppose a mage casts CoA directly in the path of an oncoming Fury Beetle. Does the Fury Beetle's strength, speed, and mass cause the top most layer of the surface CoA was cast upon just suddenly rip up or does it stay immobile as the Fury Beetle has whatever limb got snagged by the CoA ripped off of it?

read the spell...
the Fury beetle rolls a save.
If it fails it is held fast. (spell says it affects even those with SNPS)
If it makes the save it has a number of melees until it has extricated itself from the save.
Honestly sometimes I think folks over think these things.

[dragonfett]

There is also speed to consider when casting CoA. Suppose a mage casts CoA directly in the path of an oncoming Fury Beetle. Does the Fury Beetle's strength, speed, and mass cause the top most layer of the surface CoA was cast upon just suddenly rip up or does it stay immobile as the Fury Beetle has whatever limb got snagged by the CoA ripped off of it?

read the spell...
the Fury beetle rolls a save.
If it fails it is held fast. (spell says it affects even those with SNPS)
If it makes the save it has a number of melees until it has extricated itself from the save.
Honestly sometimes I think folks over think these things.

A Fury Beetle going full speed and getting caught by the CoA is going to take damage from the rapid deceleration. It would be similar to the Fury Beetle hitting a wall. While people do over think things at times (and I have been guilty of doing so on more than one occasion), there is no way, physically speaking, that the Fury Beetle is not going to take damage. Yes, the GM would at this point have to figure out what would work in terms of damage to the Fury Beetle. What I am wanting to know what happens to the surface where the CoA has been cast when an object with a lot of mass traveling at a high rate of speed gets caught by the CoA.

[Damian Magecraft]

There is also speed to consider when casting CoA. Suppose a mage casts CoA directly in the path of an oncoming Fury Beetle. Does the Fury Beetle's strength, speed, and mass cause the top most layer of the surface CoA was cast upon just suddenly rip up or does it stay immobile as the Fury Beetle has whatever limb got snagged by the CoA ripped off of it?

read the spell...
the Fury beetle rolls a save.
If it fails it is held fast. (spell says it affects even those with SNPS)
If it makes the save it has a number of melees until it has extricated itself from the save.
Honestly sometimes I think folks over think these things.

A Fury Beetle going full speed and getting caught by the CoA is going to take damage from the rapid deceleration. It would be similar to the Fury Beetle hitting a wall. While people do over think things at times (and I have been guilty of doing so on more than one occasion), there is no way, physically speaking, that the Fury Beetle is not going to take damage. Yes, the GM would at this point have to figure out what would work in terms of damage to the Fury Beetle. What I am wanting to know what happens to the surface where the CoA has been cast when an object with a lot of mass traveling at a high rate of speed gets caught by the CoA.

The same thing that happens to the carpet itself.
Nothing.
TI view a lot of questions like these as someone trying to find away to avoid having the spell affect them.
30 years as GM dealing with player whines has conditioned that response.
The spell is straight forward in what it does.
It holds victims in place.
Saves allow them to escape.
All else is FX and up to the GM to determine.

[Alrik Vas]

I agree it's up to the GM to determine. Though in regards to the questions being players "trying to get out of it" I'll just say this:

Some of us would rather be stuck than been running 150 miles an hour and losing both our legs and ending face down at the CoA's edge, most of our body leaving a red streak along the "surface."

Those poor, poor juicers.

[Damian Magecraft]

I agree it's up to the GM to determine. Though in regards to the questions being players "trying to get out of it" I'll just say this:

Some of us would rather be stuck than been running 150 miles an hour and losing both our legs and ending face down at the CoA's edge, most of our body leaving a red streak along the "surface."

Those poor, poor juicers.

Any time you start to add additional hard parameters to a spell you run into the danger of nerfing it to uselessness (in which case you might as well have just banned the spell) or more likely making it even more deadly.
If the spell is being abused as GM you can declare it is a higher level (like say level 6 so it requires multiple actions to cast) and increase its cast cost.
Or reduce its availability.
Me I tell all players that the spell must be taught not independently developed. (No getting as a level advancement spell).

[flatline]

Just house rule it to be something you're comfortable handling.

Personally, I just give it a strength rating. If you're stronger than the spell or the surface the spell is gluing you to, then you can keep going (with some penalties, perhaps, if you end up with broken planks stuck to your feet, for instance). If you're not strong enough to beat it by brute strength, then you need to find another way (cut yourself out, teleport, find some kind of mechanical advantage, etc).

The save vs magic is just stupid, so I got rid of it entirely.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

True Flatline, the save as it's presented makes it seem more like a D&D approach. I often let ingenuity fly right over mechanics when my players get a good idea.

Any time you start to add additional hard parameters to a spell you run into the danger of nerfing it to uselessness (in which case you might as well have just banned the spell) or more likely making it even more deadly.
If the spell is being abused as GM you can declare it is a higher level (like say level 6 so it requires multiple actions to cast) and increase its cast cost.
Or reduce its availability.
Me I tell all players that the spell must be taught not independently developed. (No getting as a level advancement spell).

I agree with your first statement. Though i'm curious: you mention the spell being abused, but i don't see how that's really possible. It has a purpose, you use it for that purpose. What would you say is "abusive use of Carpet of Adhesion?"

[Damian Magecraft]

True Flatline, the save as it's presented makes it seem more like a D&D approach. I often let ingenuity fly right over mechanics when my players get a good idea.

Any time you start to add additional hard parameters to a spell you run into the danger of nerfing it to uselessness (in which case you might as well have just banned the spell) or more likely making it even more deadly.
If the spell is being abused as GM you can declare it is a higher level (like say level 6 so it requires multiple actions to cast) and increase its cast cost.
Or reduce its availability.
Me I tell all players that the spell must be taught not independently developed. (No getting as a level advancement spell).

I agree with your first statement. Though i'm curious: you mention the spell being abused, but i don't see how that's really possible. It has a purpose, you use it for that purpose. What would you say is "abusive use of Carpet of Adhesion?"

Spamming the spell.
if anyone in your party can run your mage during combat because they know the exact spell choices and order they will be cast in you are being both abusive and un-inventive and probably should have selected a different class to play.
That is my definition of abusive use of spells.
other folks may have different definitions.

[Goliath Strongarm]

True Flatline, the save as it's presented makes it seem more like a D&D approach. I often let ingenuity fly right over mechanics when my players get a good idea.

Any time you start to add additional hard parameters to a spell you run into the danger of nerfing it to uselessness (in which case you might as well have just banned the spell) or more likely making it even more deadly.
If the spell is being abused as GM you can declare it is a higher level (like say level 6 so it requires multiple actions to cast) and increase its cast cost.
Or reduce its availability.
Me I tell all players that the spell must be taught not independently developed. (No getting as a level advancement spell).

I agree with your first statement. Though i'm curious: you mention the spell being abused, but i don't see how that's really possible. It has a purpose, you use it for that urpose. What would you say is "abusive use of Carpet of Adhesion?"

Spamming the spell.
if anyone in your party can run your mage during combat because they know the exact spell choices and order they will be cast in you are being both abusive and un-inventive and probably should have selected a different class to play.
That is my definition of abusive use of spells.
other folks may have different definitions.

If, as a caster, everything's depending, every time, on the same key spell, then you're sucking. Because it also means that if that spell doesn't work, you don't have a real plan. Andthat the enemy knows what you're going to cast to lead with. That's why I never liked a lynchpin spell.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, unfortunately, rooting someone to the ground is incredibly effective and pretty much doesn't get replaced by anything short of uttery paralyzing or killing a target (or group of targets). Because of this, CoA is an amazing spell that can very easily lead off a fight and set you up for victory. While there are ways to deal with it (if the opposing force is aware of a possible mage and what they are capable of) it's actually a very good lead against ground-based opponents. That's all I was saying: it has it's purpose, you use it for that purpose. If your GM is throwing land creatures that use melee combat at you (which is what a lot of rifts creatures are, though certainly not all of them), spamming CoA is an excellent answer to avoid getting swarmed or run over.

[IrncladZmbie113]

The experienced but new to Palladium player said he hated the magic and that it was a mean trick to throw at first level players. I told him that those two spells are accessible to a first level Wizard and he was shocked. He commented that Carpet of Adhesion was overpowered. I've always considered it annoying as all hell, but never really overpowering. What's everyone's opinion?

We once took an egregiously stupid mission to slay a Hydra plaguing local shipping lanes between Timiro and the Islands south of it (can't remember their name off the top of my head), and we were all level like, I dunno, around two or three. Needless to say, we were screwed. Even with the party of 50+ NPC's to back us up. (Multiple guilds rising against a common foe.)

One of the PC's was a second level wizard who had the spell Carpet of Adhesion, and as the battle started, he cast it underneath the Hydra. Now, it worked fantastically, until the Hydra decided to teleport on top of a group of summoners.

So, the PC got thinking... "Hey, I can manipulate the dimensions of my spells, right, GM?"
GM: "Of course."
PC: "I cast Carpet of Adhesion on the roof of one of the mouths of the Hydra."



Needless to say, in a few short melees, that wizard managed to SINGLE HANDILY neuter and render impotent a Hydra. I mean, well, besides the one head with the Death Gaze psionic, but that's a given. The PC went on to then cast CoA on the sides of the necks, so, as the Hydra would be swinging its heads around like mallets due to lack of accessible breath weapons, the necks would stick together and cause the Hydra to lose combat bonuses due to sheer rage at itself due to the lack of potency in combat.

That had to be the single most amazing and ingenious thing I have ever seen or even heard of, and all with a level one spell. That's one of the MANY ingenious and infuriating uses for CoA.

That wizard gained SSSOOOOOO much exp that round.

[Alrik Vas]

That, Damian, i believe is what you were trying to say when people "abuse" the spell.

[Noon]

Abuse: What happens when you do things I wasn't able to predict in advance. Alternative: Not doing what I wanted you to do.

[flatline]

Abuse: What happens when you do things I wasn't able to predict in advance. Alternative: Not doing what I wanted you to do.

Ambrose Bierce fan?

--flatline