ARMD and Oberth survival?

[ArmySGT.]

Robotech, 1st Ed, Page 103. [...]

Unfortunately, there are a LOT of fairly major inaccuracies in that segment you quoted. The standard of research in Palladium's Robotech and Macross II was not very good... well, it wouldn't be unfair to call it abysmal.

Yet, this is the ROBOTECH roleplaying game...... The MACROSS roleplaying game does NOT exist.

This is what the Authors chose to include no matter how much a FAN wishes it were another way.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yet, this is the ROBOTECH roleplaying game...... The MACROSS roleplaying game does NOT exist. [...]

And yet, for all that, the points that were under discussion were the official RT data, the RPG's 2nd Edition stats, and the Macross OSM line in the name of speculating about postwar applications of the ARMD-class. In three out of three cases, what you quoted from 1st Ed. is incorrect.

This is what the Authors chose to include no matter how much a FAN wishes it were another way.

Yes, indeed... which is why I'm perplexed you felt a need to say this. The authors of both of the shows and the RPG all chose to make the Lancer II a one-man space fighter without a drone version, armed with two large energy weapons and two missile launchers, though there are some minor variances between the versions (lasers vs plasma guns, etc.). Even if you wish it to be otherwise, the facts are what they are.

Should you wish to reference it, you can find the relevant stats on pages 106 and 107 of the RT2E Macross Saga sourcebook.

[ShadowLogan]

The animation model sheets for the series and the other official coverage never give mention to any craft called a "Lancer I". This part of it is pure baloney. The SF-3A Lancer II is what appears in the animation.

Actually what the 1E RPG identified as the Lancer I IS seen in the animation as it is currently identified as the Orberth Destroyer class of vessels. Size and other data are incorrect from current canon, but the Lancer I design does exist even in the model sheets.

Yet, this is the ROBOTECH roleplaying game...... The MACROSS roleplaying game does NOT exist.

This is what the Authors chose to include no matter how much a FAN wishes it were another way.

From a RAW perspective you a correct in what 1E states, but others are also correct in what 2E RAW states. Both are valid for their respective RT RPG lines, but they are not necessarily interchangeable even though they draw from the same animation as the basis for their universes. Basically 1E and 2E should be treated as Alternate Universes to each other.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually what the 1E RPG identified as the Lancer I IS seen in the animation [...]

You missed my point entirely... the 1st Edition Robotech RPG may misidentify the Oberth-class guided missile destroyer as some kind of space fighter, but there isn't any reference ANYWHERE to a "Lancer I". The 1st Edition RPG's conclusions directly contradict the very evidence they claimed to be basing it on.

Aside from the fact that the animation's model sheets clearly label the ship as a destroyer not a fighter, fighters generally have a cockpit, not a bridge as labeled (in helpful English) on that production art. Likewise, for the Lancer II, why would an unmanned space fighter have a very unambiguously labeled (as before, in English) cockpit?

Screwups like this are why we have the 2nd Edition, my friend.

[ShadowLogan]

@Seto
There is a problem with your assessment. The entry on the ARMD mentions "What I call...", so naming convention used in RT does not always follow the OSM and appears to come from the licensor (in this case). Which at the time ('80s) was not an uncommon practice in RT given numerous examples one can point to (in the 1E RPG):
-5 Destroids had different names (though the RPG does recognize both), IINM they are considered the "Matchbox" names.
-Veritech Fighter (VF-1) as opposed to Valkyrie
-Searcher SFV instead of Spiderbug
-Adventurer II and Falcon Jet instead of Avenger II and Dragon II respectively
-AAR-Recon II instead of LAC-60
-RV-B Dune Buggy instead of M499 GPV
-and the list goes on

That RT uses its own designation of things can make a search of the OSM problematic. I don't argue they got stuff right/wrong, but from a RAW perspective it is what it is.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I'm sorry that you find the documented facts of Robotech's origins upsetting, but I'm afraid your discontent will not make the facts any less factual.

Nor does it make your twisting of its outcome any more true. If what you stated WAS the outcome, then Robotech would have been 3 separate series linked only under the Robotech name. Frank Agrama could have saved himself an immense amount of money by adopting the Force Five anthology model. Harmony Gold would NOT have adapted the story to Robotech, changed the musical score to that of Robotech (why bother, in fact, if the goal is merely to get SDF Macross to screen?) nor would large swaths of dialogue been changed. We already know now that they did both SDF Macross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA as standalone adaptations, so really, stop trying to wizz down my back and then tell me its raining.

If we use your type of twisted and tortured logic, then the fact that SDF Macross started off as a comedy and parody show, then by rights the changes to SDF Macross were merely a means to an end to get a comedy mecha show to screen. See how that works?

[Seto Kaiba]

@Seto
There is a problem with your assessment. The entry on the ARMD mentions "What I call...", so naming convention used in RT does not always follow the OSM and appears to come from the licensor (in this case).

My friend, naming conventions aren't what I'm talking about... though irritating, the deeper problem with that information is that its source contradicts what the book says the source says. If I thought I'd actually be able to get an answer, I'd love nothing better than to sit down with Kevin and try to get him to reminisce over how they ended up going so far astray.

All told, though, let's drag this back 'round to postwar applications of the ARMD-class 'fore we get scolded for derailing the thread. I personally think that, considering the carrying capacity in official spec and so on, that the ARMDs would make rather effective orbit-to-surface assault platforms. They carry enough fighters to outweigh an Ikazuchi-class, and the VF-1s being able to reach a low Earth orbit for recovery after a sortie would make it possible for the space carrier to launch fighters and recover them without having to descend into the atmosphere. If one wanted to adapt the refit ARMD that was seen in later Macross titles (most notably in Macross 7 Trash) you could even have it launching larger craft like Horizont descent shuttles from that large bay on the underside. It'd make one hell of a force projection asset. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to call it an "Invasion in a box". Even updating it to take Alphas and Betas would be very easy, since the internal spaces are wide open and the Beta's not really larger than a VF-1 anyway, just proportioned differently.

EDIT: A picture's worth a thousand words, right? I got a scan of the refit ARMD-class from M7T here for anyone who's interested.

Nor does it make your twisting of its outcome any more true. If what you stated WAS the outcome, then Robotech would have been 3 separate series linked only under the Robotech name.

Again, my apologies that the truth stated in plain language upsets you... but the truth is amoral and impersonal. On this particular note, there are two separate accounts given by various people connected to the series... one stating that the idea of a "Force Five"-style presentation was proposed and rejected, and the other saying that it was simply rejected as uncontainable (possibly due to the staff's apparent belief that anything overtly Japanese would cause spontaneous head explosions in the audience). Either way, the decision not to go with that approach was probably the right thing to do, in hindsight we know that Southern Cross was a veritable boat anchor around Robotech's neck even after those changes made it more tolerable by connecting it to Macross.

If we use your type of twisted and tortured logic, then the fact that SDF Macross started off as a comedy and parody show, then by rights the changes to SDF Macross were merely a means to an end to get a comedy mecha show to screen. See how that works?

Sorry to say, your grasp of the facts here seems to be a little slack... the Super Dimension Fortress Macross series, in its earliest phases of development, was proposed and developed as a serious space opera titled Battle City Megaroad. It only briefly deviated from that after development had already begun, on the insistence of its first sponsor, Uizu Co. The show changed back to a serious space opera format immediately after Uizu went under.

Warning: Indeed the truth is amoral and impersonal, but the nature of its presentation is not. The tone of this post and others made by you in this thread has been negative in its treatment of not only those with differing opinions but also fans of the previous edition of the game, fans of the Masters Saga segment of the Robotech series and of Palladium books. Warning for Trolling.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Again, my apologies that the truth stated in plain language upsets you... but the truth is amoral and impersonal.

Wow, ad hominem already....

On this particular note, there are two separate accounts given by various people connected to the series... one stating that the idea of a "Force Five"-style presentation was proposed and rejected, and the other saying that it was simply rejected as uncontainable (possibly due to the staff's apparent belief that anything overtly Japanese would cause spontaneous head explosions in the audience).

First off, I'd like to see some verification of this claim. Second, its completely and totally irrelevant anyway. Robotech is not simply Macross and 2 other series despite what you want to claim.

Either way, the decision not to go with that approach was probably the right thing to do, in hindsight we know that Southern Cross was a veritable boat anchor around Robotech's neck even after those changes made it more tolerable by connecting it to Macross.

Again, totally irrelevant. Robotech is not simply Macross and 2 other series tacked on no matter how much you want to claim otherwise.

[ShadowLogan]

My friend, naming conventions aren't what I'm talking about... though irritating, the deeper problem with that information is that its source contradicts what the book says the source says. If I thought I'd actually be able to get an answer, I'd love nothing better than to sit down with Kevin and try to get him to reminisce over how they ended up going so far astray.

Naming conventions though are a factor, given things are being identified differently in multiple cases in Robotech products at the time.

The Animation shows what they called the Lancer-2 (Space Cannon SPC-II) being launched from the ARMD and something about it made the platform unmanned (either by PB or higher up from HG as a common naming scheme does appear to be in use on other examples). Apparently they did not connect the Lancer-2 with the SF-3A description in the available notes, because they already connected it to the Lancer-1 design. Though for whatever reason the Lancer-1 was seen as a Fighter and not a Destroyer, though there is nothing in the animation to suggest it was actually deployed from the ARMD.

Now the writeup in the animation notes lists only two platforms based on the ARMD. If they take the SFA-3 Lancer II to be a reference to what they call the Lancer-1 under the naming convention of the time (be it from PB or HG), then the L2/SPC-II is unlisted because "exact numbers could not be found" as apparently the QF-3k Ghost was also based here and they knew what it was. This would suggest that whatever information they actually had was viewed less as a definitive description and more a general overview with holes to fill-in.

But we are getting off topic. I would just put the issue down as a sign of the times the product was created in.

[Sgt Anjay]

I'm with Rabid here.

It is certainly fact, long known, that Harmony Gold originally intended to simply adapt SDF:Macross but changed plans in order to get the anime on tv.

But I'll be honest, I'd like to see this overwhelmingly convincing evidence that they cared less while producing the other two-thirds of Robotech, especially since Southern Cross and Mospeada were already in Harmony Gold's library of titles, and wouldn't have been there for the lulz; it would've been because they already had designs upon them.

As for "copycats"...well. For one thing, Southern Cross was of course the third of the Super Dimension series, meaning that at worst it was an attempt by Tatsunoko, one of the companies involved in Macross, at a second spiritual successor of a sort after Orguss had done well.

As for the rest, Southern Cross and Mospeada were certainly following the transforming robot craze of the early 80s, and what show wouldn't want to be a big hit? But if that's the bar for copycat then every Real Robot show was a Mobile Suit Gundam copycat, and Macross was just one of the most successful copycats.

No, in every way that actually mattered (plot, story, characters, mecha design) Southern Cross and Mospeada were plenty distinct.

But I'm going to be completely frank, saying things intentionally disparaging and of arguable validity as if they were fact rather than a personal opinion about series to known fans of those series in a forum about that very thing seems at best obviously rude and poor form. The intentionally malicious invective is really not needed to make the point that Macross is the more popular of the three series' that went into making Robotech.

[Alrik Vas]

I can see how you'd feel that way, and though I don't really agree with Kaiba either, I don't find him to be intentionally malicious when it comes to talking about Macross' popularity in relation to Robotech.

[Sgt Anjay]

I'd probably agree with you if this was more of an isolated incident, Alrik, or if he was expressing his opinions as his opinion which is generally your right even when it is rude.

This isn't, though, which is the reason I'm even saying anything.

[Tiree]

I agree Saito's views can be very polarizing to the Robotech Community. Granted he has done vast work for the Robotech Community in providing detailed information about anime sheets and what not.

After meeting with Macek in the early 90's, I have a very ugly view of the man. He had divested himself away from Robotech, and was onto his new project. I had tried asking him questions about Robotech, and he really couldn't answer them at the time. For whatever reason, I think he really didn't give a rats behind about the series. Afterall he was onto his new one!

I agree that Macross is the Anchor of the Robotech Saga. It is what hooks people in. But Robotech is so much more than 3 independent series put together. It has a mythos all to its own. It has grown due to the RPG and Novels that you just don't see with other Anime's of that time frame.

And the only reason why Robotech is still alive is due to the fans. I really doubt HG would have an active presence with Robotech if the Fans weren't there to drive it.

[ArmySGT.]

I'm perplexed you felt a need to say this.

Yet, this is the ROBOTECH roleplaying game...... The MACROSS roleplaying game does NOT exist.

Everyone keeps repeating this........ Yet, you insist on.. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross. Macross.

Warning: For spamming and trolling.

[Seto Kaiba]

Wow, ad hominem already....

Not really... I genuinely don't want to upset you, but it's never been my habit to sugarcoat things.

But I'll be honest, I'd like to see this overwhelmingly convincing evidence that they cared less while producing the other two-thirds of Robotech, especially since Southern Cross and Mospeada were already in Harmony Gold's library of titles, and wouldn't have been there for the lulz; it would've been because they already had designs upon them. [...]

It's right there in Harmony Gold's own account of Robotech's creation... they'd already started production on a dub of Macross when they were sidetracked by Revell, and they only teamed up with Revell so they could support their plans for Macross with merchandise. Bringing it back to my remark to Alrik that started all this, the greater quality of the Macross Saga compared to what followed is a function of the facts that it was 1. the mission-critical component they'd built the whole plan around, 2. the only part they invested plenty of time in planning (the others being, by HG's admission, a near-legendary rush job), and 3. the part that they expected to be the big draw... the other two sagas being included as a way of extending the Macross story rather than something marketed on the basis of their own virtues.

As for "copycats"...well. [...] Southern Cross and Mospeada were certainly following the transforming robot craze of the early 80s, and what show wouldn't want to be a big hit?

Both the creators of Southern Cross and MOSPEADA are fairly specific about the substantial influence that the original Macross series had on their work. Both shows dramatically changed from what they'd been conceived as to cash in on the success of Macross. MOSPEADA was taking pointers from Macross pretty early on, and it shows even in its developmental titles... one of which was Super Immortal Fortress Reflex Point. It changed from a police mecha series (not unlike Patlabor in basic concept) to a story about an alien invasion of Earth. The success Takatoku had with transforming VF-1 toys even resulted in MOSPEADA's toy partner angling for the creators to put greater emphasis on transforming fighters that'd been borderline background designs previously. Southern Cross's changes were even more profound... it didn't just change settings, it completely switched genres from a sci-fi spin on a particularly storied period of Japanese history to a story about a war with aliens who are identical to humans.

(In fact, if you look in B-Club 79's 10 year retrospective of Macross's influence on the industry, you'll find both the original Southern Cross and MOSPEADA listed therein as shows that drew heavily on its designs and themes. They're in good company, alongside SPT Layzner, Super Dimension Century Orguss, Heavy Metal L-Gaim, and Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, to name a few.)

Now, let's please call a halt to the discussion of me personally, and possibly even drag ourselves back to the primary thread topic before NMI or Jefffar burst something aortic.

Naming conventions though are a factor, given things are being identified differently in multiple cases in Robotech products at the time.

Granted, but as the title of the thread itself singles out the Oberth-class space destroyers, I think we can rule out 1E entirely... though I would love to know HOW Palladium reached so many of these perplexing decisions. Anyway, I agree we should get back to the main topic. What say you of my ideas regarding the application of the ARMD as an orbit-to-surface assault platform voiced previously? Particularly with the viability of the M7T retrofit version.

[taalismn]

....anyways, back to ARMD and Oberth survival. Rather than rehash the old arguments, let us turn instead to fan speculation in hopes of getting some RPGing adventure material out of this all.
-Just about everything terrestrial in the lower Earth orbits is going to get shellacked during the Rain of Death(we see this)
-Anything in higher orbits is going to get wiped by collision with the massive and multiple Defolds of the Zentraedi Grand Armada into Earth space, if nothing else. Otherwise, early target practice for Dolza's partycrashers.
-The exceptions might be anyone lying doggo on the Moon, in a long arc orbit well away from the immediate Earth-Moon neighborhood...or, hiding behind the cover of a friendly Zentraedi ship.
-Bear in mind that even before the Grand Armada shows up, nearby Earth-space is teeming with a somewhat smaller alien presence in the form of Breetai's fleet, attached Quadronos, and Khyron's little flotilla. Out of sheer boredom, if nothing else, they're going to be poking around, while keeping an eye on the Fortress. And Khyron just might be blowing up ANYTHING for the hell of it.
-This makes a large Earth ship on a long arc course very unlikely. It also makes 'running silent' either in deep space or hiding on the Moon is going to make 'Das Boot' look like Oktoberfest. This would be the hardest adventure in gaming to pull off, IMHO, because any confrontations with the Zentraedi are likely to be short and ugly, and call attention to the undergunned Earthlings in the middle of a big empty sky, if they've somehow managed to avoid being detected thus far.
-Finding a friendly Zentraedi ship to cover is going to be exceptional good fortune, especially since the Earth High Command is unlikely to permit any sort of fraternization with the aliens(they're still hoping at this point prior to the Rain that the SDF-1 will somehow go away and take the aliens with them). As an RPG scenario, this could be a fun, if unlikely, episode involving misunderstandings, taking personal initiative over Earth Command's orders, and maybe some slapstick(Zentraedi ship approaches the Earth ship and asks if they have any Minmei music or Twinkies to spare, or mistranslations cause problems).
-Hiding out on the Moon seems the best bet, but will mainly be a lunar adventure, with the PCs using their grounded ship as a moonbase, and trying to avoid being detected by Zentraedi ships flying overhead...and dealing with the random inquisitive Zentraedi mecha patrol poking around the moondust(mecha rumble on the Moon!).

[Jefffar]

Locked for Review.