PPE-free magic

[Glistam]

So, this is really about some guy wanting to play a pure Chi being as a mage.

No it's not. That discussion sparked this one, which is broader in scope. Read the first post again.

[Nightmask]

So, this is really about some guy wanting to play a pure Chi being as a mage.

No it's not. That discussion sparked this one, which is broader in scope. Read the first post again.

It's not that broad and seems to have little justification for it other than to allow a character or race that's incapable of having PPE the ability to cast spells anyway by going 'well I use X and they don't use PPE in that setting so he's a spellcaster too!'.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I would suggest contacting the author of said material and asking them whether PPE is intended to represent ambient magic, as I take it to mean by it being Potential Psychic Energy, the potential to bring forth psychic effects, which I interpret magic to be. As I and the others here can only interpret what is meant, then it becomes necessary to ask the book creators what is meant.

I don't care what is meant, I care what the rules say. Any information added outside of the books is potentially a rules change, which is fine. I'm not sure magic is psychic effects though, though the 'psychic' in PPE does confuse that issue. "Inner strength" actually sounds a lot more magical to me. *shrug*

You obviously don't care how the system even is supposed to work, as you would rather argue about trivialities in the way different systems were written. I fail to see how that brings any order to a game if you are basing rulings on conflicting sources of information. Do you actually run games or do you just argue with those who do?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Rifters (players who only play Rifts) insist that no rules from other settings are applicable in rifts because that would mean they would have to 'get books from the other settings'.
Thus the reverse must be true also, that no rifts rules apply to the other settings because of the stupidness in rifts' rules.

Therefore, the generalized rule is that all settings' rules sets are separate except for what the individual GM's import into their games.

The claim you cite is false in both directions. The generalized rule is that it is a megaversal setting. The owner of the company has said so. Is that insufficient for you? I don't often bring him into such things, but he's said this before...more than once and in public.

Criminy.

/Sub

Basically What I did was say "fine, have it your way." to the Rifters, and made it applicable both ways cause they were being the Democrats. And I didn't want to argue anymore with the Rifters anymore.

I do believe it was said that they are "megaversal" in the sense that they were "easily convertible" I Think this is found in the RCB1.

[Tor]

Man, what a breather. *rubs some chalk on his fingers*

Faeries - Look at the Mythology they came from, they are Magic Incarnate. Thus they can draw on Ambient PPE to cast spells till the world runs dry.

They draw on ambient PPE to fuel rituals like their fairy dance, not to fuel their spells. Only the dance has a PPE cost.

Using Mechanoids, 1e PF, or TMNT for your arguements is Invalid.

Nope, the GOMAP subforum is for ALL the Palladium games, not just the more recent ones you worship.

Palladium NOW uses PPE for Magic, end of story, get over it.

Yes. It now ALSO uses it. The introduction of PPE never nullified the existence of per-day casting. PPE is mentioned as existing in Transdimensional TMNT (it specifically compares the 15 PPE cast of Call Lightning and Time Slip) yet it is not applied to the spells there, it still uses the per-day system.

Mechanoids, obviously they must all still be SDC, but then the Kittani would've smashed them, and Mechanoids Space would be a futile project vs an endlessly delayed project. Rifts Mechanoids shows RETCON.

Mechanoids become MDC when they move into Rifts (just like a lot of stuff in PF). The ISP magic users did not travel to Rifts Earth, so they weren't addressed in Sourcebook 1 at all, you have no ground to stand on.

1E PF was outdated & REPLACED with 2e.

Incorrect, PF1E still exists, I own a copy. Having a same or similar name as a previous thing doesn't mean you're a replacement. We know that there are alien intelligences sharing the same name as Demon Lords. Clearly that could also be the case with gods living in different versions of the Palladium World.

There ARE different versions of all worlds. Temporal Magic and discussion of alternate dimensions make this very clear.

If PB had the $$$ all they books would've been updated to PPE.

Incorrect. Kevin could have included alternate PPE costs when he compiled Mechanoids. Wujcik could have given the BTS costs of PPE to his magic spells. Neither did, when they had those options.

TMNT, lost licence will NEVER be updated & is obsolete.

Incorrect, losing the license just means there won't be new material, not that it's obsolete. We have a subforum dedicated to both After the Bomb AND to TMNT. Conversion Book 1 (a Rifts Sourcebook) says it's fine to include material from Transdimensional TMNT, as does Mutants in Orbit (a Rifts and After the Bomb supplement, 2 current lines).

HU2e contains mutant animals, thus showing how the retcon would be applied.

What retcon? HU2 contains very limited options for mutant animals. Many species and backgrounds are left out, including backgrounds that allow PPEless magic casting present in both TMNT and ATB supplements.

Time Lords are now Temporal Wizards, get over it.

Untrue, they have entirely different mechanics. I won't 'get over' your delusions.

Rune Weapons, fueled by a Soul, which contains.....PPE.

Souls do not necessarily contain PPE. A person can completely burn out their PPE creating magic items and still have a soul. Souls do often contain (or at least, are tied to) PPE if that's what you mean. Nowhere are we prevented from making rune weapons out of PPEless people though.

Conversion Book 1 - Old PFRPG were given PPE, because your obsolete Spells/Day didn't get help from Ley Lines & was Obsolete.

Incorrect, PPE was a new ability gained by them when they came to Rifts Earth, a dimension that had PPE.

Much like the bonus abilities gained by Beyond the Supernatural classes, this is obviously lost when you leave.

The PPE system is Cleaner. 1e you could cast you biggest spell x/day & ignore the rest, now you have costs & some balance.

Aesthetic preference noted, dismissed.

Your Single Chi only "Spell" Converting Chi to PPE, converts the used Chi to PPE to then allow further Conversion of Chi into PPE. Or are you too daft to grasp that simple game mechanic?

You put 'spell' in quotes as if to imply it isn't a spell: it most definitely is. I grasp the mechanic and do not appreciate your implication that I am 'daft'.

The mechanic is irrelevant. It is a spell that can be cast without expending PPE. That makes it PPEless magic. By "PPEless magic" I mean spells that do not cost PPE to cast. I consider a spell that produces PPE for not cost in PPE "PPEless magic" for this purpose. Just as 'convert ISP to PPE' is a "PPEless psionic".

Or it's just under Spells to make that Chi Mastery Power easier to find.

It isn't a chi mastery power.

TW Gear does the Converting of ISP to PPE, thus ISP costs are higher than PPE costs to charge said TW Items.

grow a Pair, quit playing & write your own bloody system.

I don't think sexist insults like this have a place here.

You take Your Fox-Spirit, teach it to convert chi to ppe, you can now cast spells.(Bend those rules)

No rules are being bent in doing that.

HOWEVER, if your lil ol fox has 0 Chi or any Negative Chi, you die.

Yup. It's pretty gosh darn dangerous to recklessly give the chi>PPE spell on burning-paper (I seem to have forgot the term for those... Immortalists make them...mystic calligraphy I think) to pure chi beings is VERY dangerous to them. If they don't know how to use them, they would indeed lose all their chi. If they do know how to use them, then they can control how much chi they convert.

You do not gain PPE from class or level, as you don't have the ability to have any in the 1st place.

Foxes and demons simply don't START with PPE. Nowhere is it stated they lack the ability to gain PPE.

You obviously don't care how the system even is supposed to work, as you would rather argue about trivialities in the way different systems were written.

Untrue, arguing about the way different systems are written is what I have been doing. Less commentary on how "obvious" other people's feelings are and more discussion about facts, please. I don't care about whether or not you think I care.

I fail to see how that brings any order to a game if you are basing rulings on conflicting sources of information.

No conflict exists, there's just more than 1 way to make magic. Just like there's more than one way to make fire.

Do you actually run games or do you just argue with those who do?

Irrelevant, stop changing the subject. People are not obligated to divulge their gaming habits to have a conversation about Palladium content.

Heeeeey SG do you game with your girlfriend? What fun!

The generalized rule is that it is a megaversal setting. The owner of the company has said so.

Where? Exact quote.

I do believe it was said that they are "megaversal" in the sense that they were "easily convertible" I Think this is found in the RCB1.

I don't think 'megaversal' has such a narrow meaning. Usually blurbs on the bottom of the back cover of books use broader language like 'can be used with'.

seems to have little justification for it other than to allow a character or race that's incapable of having PPE the ability to cast spells anyway by going 'well I use X and they don't use PPE in that setting so he's a spellcaster too!'.

Proving you can cast magic without PPE (which I've done) does prove that people without PPE can cast magic.

You also have never proven that foxes are incapable of having any. It's an assumption people make because pure chi beings don't START with any.

[Stone Gargoyle]

You obviously don't care how the system even is supposed to work, as you would rather argue about trivialities in the way different systems were written.

Untrue, arguing about the way different systems are written is what I have been doing. Less commentary on how "obvious" other people's feelings are and more discussion about facts, please. I don't care about whether or not you think I care.

I cannot support my argument with direct quotes, so I shall be leaving this discussion in any case.

I fail to see how that brings any order to a game if you are basing rulings on conflicting sources of information.

No conflict exists, there's just more than 1 way to make magic. Just like there's more than one way to make fire.

Only if you interpret the various books as being different systems instead of outmoded ways they tried to do it before they figured out the current system.

Do you actually run games or do you just argue with those who do?

Irrelevant, stop changing the subject. People are not obligated to divulge their gaming habits to have a conversation about Palladium content.

I only brought it up because as a GM, it helps to have one set system of how you run things rather than numerous conflicting ways. I see a system using PPE for all magic more consistent in a gaming sense in that you have it as a set system.

Heeeeey SG do you game with your girlfriend? What fun!

I do not currently run a group, nor do I have a girlfriend at the moment. I have had female players, but then I also have male players. I fail to see what any of that has to do with the conversation.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I do believe it was said that they are "megaversal" in the sense that they were "easily convertible" I Think this is found in the RCB1.

I don't think 'megaversal' has such a narrow meaning. Usually blurbs on the bottom of the back cover of books use broader language like 'can be used with'.

And you can go on using it that way in your games. Since that is a GM's prerogative. Otherwise the term means 'easily convertible' for canon.
You might ask "Why?", but you have run out of me explaining things over and over like jewish poetry w/o you understanding what I am saying.

[Tor]

Only if you interpret the various books as being different systems instead of outmoded ways they tried to do it before they figured out the current system.

I just interpret them as different character classes and versions of spells.

as a GM, it helps to have one set system of how you run things rather than numerous conflicting ways. I see a system using PPE for all magic more consistent in a gaming sense in that you have it as a set system.

Magic should never be consistent, it's magic. Dimensions are weird. Transdimensional elaborates on this a lot.

I do not currently run a group, nor do I have a girlfriend at the moment. I have had female players, but then I also have male players. I fail to see what any of that has to do with the conversation.

That was my point =/

And you can go on using it that way in your games. Since that is a GM's prerogative. Otherwise the term means 'easily convertible' for canon.
You might ask "Why?", but you have run out of me explaining things over and over like jewish poetry w/o you understanding what I am saying.

I don't see why we should be assuming something has to be 'converted' at all, if it doesn't say so. The cover of transdimensional TMNT says 'a sourcebook compatible with HU, BtS and TMNT' on the cover.

[Jefffar]

Just a reminder to not make personal comments about other posters.

[Galroth]

And you can go on using it that way in your games. Since that is a GM's prerogative. Otherwise the term means 'easily convertible' for canon.
You might ask "Why?", but you have run out of me explaining things over and over like jewish poetry w/o you understanding what I am saying.

I don't see why we should be assuming something has to be 'converted' at all, if it doesn't say so. The cover of transdimensional TMNT says 'a sourcebook compatible with HU, BtS and TMNT' on the cover.

And they were, in 1993. TMNT isn't supported anymore. HU and BtS have had system updates since then. Things in games change. This is one of the reasons why people are having a problem with your argument. You are mixing outdated systems with modernized (debatable term, but yeah) systems and coming to unreasonable conclusions.

All of the above is IMO. Take it for what you will.

[Tor]

Once compatible always compatible. 'Not support' only means it's not getting new books, not that everything from it is void.

Both Rifts and HU2nd both mention being able to incorporate TMNT content. Even if Revised HU was all that existed when TMNT stuff was out, HU2nd continued the tradition of being able to include it.

It's not an outdated system. The most recent version of Heroes Unlimited definitely says we can make TMNT characters.

My conclusions are not unreasonable, they are the rules. Your conclusions that rules no longer apply just because it's an older book is what is unreasonable.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Once compatible always compatible?!?! Familiar with Microsoft Windows? Or Excel? Word? Same basic thing. New system is not compatible with the old.

I think your argument just got flushed on that one.

[Tor]

RPGs are not software. The books say they are compatible, and no later statements have ever contradicted it. I've kept asking and nobody's provided any evidence that PPE is an absolute requirement of magic, so the other ways remain.

[arouetta]

PFRPG 2ed, pg 179. "Magic is very real. It is a natural force".... Then later is referred to as "magic energy" and is an invisible, constant and every present energy. Then, "Parapsychologists of the 20th Century called this energy Potential Psychic Energy."

Thus, magic=energy=PPE.

Edit: I just read my PFRPG 1ed book, and it also refers to "magical energies" and that the body can handle the strain only so much, hence the limit of spells per day. But if the body is handling the strain of magical energies that will be later on named PPE by a bunch of parapsychologists on another planet in another dimension, it still proves that magic uses PPE no matter whether you are using the newer editions or older editions.

[Tor]

Your conclusions require that we interpret NPC opinions as fact, this is a common mistake we sometimes make, but it is not a correct one. That a parapsychologist calls magic energy 'PPE' doesn't mean ALL magic energy is PPE.

The body-strain per-day method of PRPG uses different phrasing from that of later stuff that references PPE.

Plus you've no rebuttal to the chi-based or ISP-based or Bio-E based magics.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Ok, this is getting old. Every argument has been shot down. At this point, it's arguing for the sake of arguing. Pretty sure if I looked them upx that's one of the very definitions of Trollish behavior.

[Tor]

It isn't. I'm familiar with the proper meaning of the word, and am also familiar with how it is inappropriately flung about as an ad hominem attack.

Trolling is an unprovable behaviour, a hypothetical concept that people misrepresent their beliefs, adopting an inflammatory facade, to as to anger others. Essentially by accusing someone of being a troll (which is what I take from your insinuation that my behaviour is trollish) is accusing them of being a liar, disingenuous, of presenting beliefs they do not believe in. It is a grave insult.

The "sake" for which people argue is irrelevant here, and not something you can ever know. We are here to argue the words that come from our mouths (or on forums, that flow from our fingertips) and not the dastardly motives we imagine might lurk behind them.

Your assertion that my arguments were 'shot down' is false. Claiming victory doesn't mean you actually won a point, or that someone who insists on disagreeing with you in light of your claimed victory is evil and duplicitous.

You would hold a greater chance at success in both understanding and arguing about the rules if you focused on them and their consents in favour of insulting others. I simply follow where the rules lead, to all the wonderful opportunities within the multifaceted Megaverse. I don't assume restrictions where there aren't literally any. It makes the Megaverse scarier, but also more fun.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Regardless of how it is worded in the books, they make it clear that PPE is a necessary part of magic. Arguing based on the wording of the explaination being the opinion of NPCs is again ignoring the intention of the author. You can continue to argue to the contrary, but arouetta made the point and it is valid regardless of what you say. ISP is explained as a conversion of PPE in many of the books, as you sacrifice PPE points as you develop ISP.

[Tor]

they make it clear that PPE is a necessary part of magic.

That's never been made clear, only that PPE is a required part of most modern magic.

PPE existed from BtS when Erick wrote Transdimensional. He refers to PPE in it, yet opts not to use it. So even when PPE existed and was used to fuel magic, an author still (in the same book he mentions it) opts to use the spells-per-day system.

If you have Transdimensional on hand, you can see on page 34: "In Beyond the Supernatural, the 'Time Slip' spell lets a character push just seven seconds into the future. And that costs 15 Potential Psychic Energy Points, about what it would take to teleport 50 pounds across five miles, or to call down three powerful lightning bolts." then pg 43 you have Call Lightning, but rather than a PPE system it uses the per-day system, much like Fairies and certain magical objects do, rather than a PPE pool. CL in this case only counted as 1 spell (some of the stronger spells counted as 2 or 3, though I am unclear if that was only for initial purchasing options or also for per-day cost).

For reference sake, the BtS Time Slip did indeed cost 15, and was level 6, as was Teleport: Lesser. Call Lightning was a level 6 spell also, and that version of it did indeed call up to 3 lightning bolts. It was a lot stronger than the version of Call Lightning printed in Transdimensional TMNT. Same name, but different spells. Different effects, and different fuel sources. Much like the 'Create Zombie' ritual varies between the Nightbane and Rifts versions.

However you might view ISP, it is not PPE, nor is spells-per-day, nor is chi. The ability to change between some energy sources doesn't make them the same. We have no grounds on which to assume that magic fueled by chi or ISP is somehow being converted to PPE first. Since you need special abilities to do conversions like that, it wouldn't make sense for it to automatically happen.

[MADMANMIKE]

they make it clear that PPE is a necessary part of magic.

That's never been made clear, only that PPE is a required part of most modern magic.

PPE existed from BtS when Erick wrote Transdimensional. He refers to PPE in it, yet opts not to use it. So even when PPE existed and was used to fuel magic, an author still (in the same book he mentions it) opts to use the spells-per-day system.

If you have Transdimensional on hand, you can see on page 34: "In Beyond the Supernatural, the 'Time Slip' spell lets a character push just seven seconds into the future. And that costs 15 Potential Psychic Energy Points, about what it would take to teleport 50 pounds across five miles, or to call down three powerful lightning bolts." then pg 43 you have Call Lightning, but rather than a PPE system it uses the per-day system, much like Fairies and certain magical objects do, rather than a PPE pool. CL in this case only counted as 1 spell (some of the stronger spells counted as 2 or 3, though I am unclear if that was only for initial purchasing options or also for per-day cost).

For reference sake, the BtS Time Slip did indeed cost 15, and was level 6, as was Teleport: Lesser. Call Lightning was a level 6 spell also, and that version of it did indeed call up to 3 lightning bolts. It was a lot stronger than the version of Call Lightning printed in Transdimensional TMNT. Same name, but different spells. Different effects, and different fuel sources. Much like the 'Create Zombie' ritual varies between the Nightbane and Rifts versions.

lol, every time I see a new post in this thread I start to look through my old books to disprove an argument, and then I look back at the original post and see that the first response by Nekira was never adequately invalidated...

Your arguments are flawed because it rests on obsolete rules that no longer apply.

Transdimensional Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is dead. It has "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" in the title, and that license was given up long ago. It's a 24 year old book. It has Heroes Unlimited and Beyond the Supernatural on the cover, but those books have both since been revised to fall in line with the current P.P.E. system so there's nothing left to validate it as a source of currently canon material.

Don't get me wrong, I love that old book and used it to death back in the day; my first printing is in almost as bad a shape as my first printing of RIFTS Sourcebook One. But Megaverse Builder has superseded it as the definitive book on dimensional travel, and in that book on page 14 it describes a dimension without P.P.E., and specifically states that magic must use the P.P.E. of the caster or ritual sacrifice.. So P.P.E. is still necessary to cast magic, period.

But I'm sure that's not enough for you, so I'll point out all of the information in the outdated Transdimensional Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles book that you are ignoring that invalidates your argument.

TTMNT presents a mechanic called Temporal Energy, and discusses at length (starting on page 32) how everything has this energy and that it is a natural part of time travel; the quote on page 34 you are using is actually presenting a mathematical formula for translating P.P.E. to electrical energy; the part you conveniently left out is "The problem with these methods is that they are incredibly expensive in terms of energy expenditure. Each second added, or subtracted, to a minute takes about 10,000 watts." In the quote you use, it is basically saying that 15 P.P.E. is the equivalent of 70,000 watts of electricity... rounded off that's essentially 1 P.P.E. = 4,667 watts of electricity.

So the book in question validates P.P.E. as a form of energy. But what does that have to do with your assertion that it's unnecessary for magic?

On page 41 (you might recognize that as the page that starts the description of WIZARD MAGIC) it goes on at length explaining that "The number of spells a wizard can cast per day (24 hours) is limited by the frail condition of the mortal, human body. The channeling of magic energies is physically as well as mentally taxing." It goes on to say ".. as the spell caster uses magic more and more often, his body, and inner body, builds a tolerance toward the mystic energies, enabling him to cast more spells per day. In direct game context, this is reflected as one increases in experience levels."

So not only does the book you use to suggest P.P.E. is unnecessary point out that energy is indeed necessary to cast spell magic, it actually quantifies how much of one type of energy (electricity) is equal to another type, P.P.E.. It presents a mechanic that doesn't show the P.P.E. cost for each spell, but in fact does recognize that some spells would require a higher amount of P.P.E. by showing that they require more of the wizards 'spells per day' to cast. You argue that it uses a different type of energy, but in the absence of a defined energy, one can only fall back on the only energy form indeed used for magic referenced in that book, P.P.E... If it walk like a duck...

Thanks for bringing this up; I hadn't cracked TTMNT for a long time and I think I'll go ahead and revise it now for publication.

[Tor]

Nekira's statement does not need to be 'invalidated' because it is not valid to begin with. The rules were never made obsolete. These rules were canon and never decanonized. If I'm wrong, the burden of proof is on claimants.

A license expiring does not make the product dead. I have plenty of other Palladium products telling me I can use them in sync with TMNT. Palladium not being able to print any new books does not mean we can't use the ones we purchased.

Heck, now you have me wondering. When Doc Feral's Sex Kittens were printed in the Rifter (and I believe they are one of the Rifter entries considered canon on our list here) was that before or after the license expired? I'm guessing after. Doc Feral is a character who existed in the TMNT world. An original character, no doubt, but still in that world.

I've read the dimension builder, and I do not agree with your interpretation of page 14. As I have already addressed earlier, a dimension without PPE only doubles PPE costs and makes it harder to get PPE from ley lines. It doesn't have any phrasing that would make it harder to cast magic through another system such as ISP, per-day, chi, or if there's any other means I'm overlooking.

If it had said something like "all spells cost an extra 5 PPE to cast" then I could probably agree there's a point. But 0 x 2 is still 0, so there isn't one.

the book you use to suggest P.P.E. is unnecessary point out that energy is indeed necessary to cast spell magic

Yes, but not PPE. There are other forms of energy besides PPE. PPE is something that can be turned into magic/mystic energy, but raw PPE is not inherently magical. If that were so, all beings with PPE would register as magic.

it actually quantifies how much of one type of energy (electricity) is equal to another type, P.P.E.

Incorrect. It never states that they are equal, rather it talks about how they can produce similar things, and on the basis of the effects they produce, a ratio can be produced.

It's like comparing 'calories expended bicycling' versus 'calories expended walking'. To set a distance and make a ratio between how many calories it takes to travel that distance through different modes of transport with two different efficiencies is not to say that walking is bicycling.

It presents a mechanic that doesn't show the P.P.E. cost for each spell, but in fact does recognize that some spells would require a higher amount of P.P.E. by showing that they require more of the wizards 'spells per day' to cast.

That's actually an issue that isn't very clear. The 'counts as 2/3' actually may only refer to initial spell selection and have more to do with the length of time it takes to learn higher level spells. I favour the 'counts as more to cast' simply because it's more balanced, not because the text supports it. The text actually only refers to the (2) and (3) notation for initial selection, not casting. Since PPE is not used, even if it is interpreted as affecting spells-per-day, that would not have anything to do with PPE since those spells are not cast with PPE.

You argue that it uses a different type of energy, but in the absence of a defined energy, one can only fall back on the only energy form indeed used for magic referenced in that book, P.P.E..

I argue it uses magical energy, not potential psychic energy. Magical energy is certainly defined, but not as PPE. It's not as if we have a pre-PPE system here. Listing PPE for a wizard and PPE costs for the spells would have been VERY easy. They already existed in BtS. But Erick opted not to, in spite of displaying awareness of this new system. That's because magic in TMNT works like magic in PRPG. Not like magic in the newer dimensions of BtS or PF2nd.

hadn't cracked TTMNT for a long time and I think I'll go ahead and revise it now for publication.

WHA? Are you saying Palladium might actually renew the license? I heard there were rumours in 2007 but I had given up.

Of course whenever a 2nd ed of a book comes out, I still maintain that the 1st is viable and that they can be treated as separate dimensions. The sheer amount of dimensions in TTMNT basically demands I do this.

[MADMANMIKE]

WHA? Are you saying Palladium might actually renew the license? I heard there were rumours in 2007 but I had given up.

Of course whenever a 2nd ed of a book comes out, I still maintain that the 1st is viable and that they can be treated as separate dimensions. The sheer amount of dimensions in TTMNT basically demands I do this.

lol, you can argue until you're blue in the face, it's still not going to make you right. I'm not inclined to read any of your rebuttals to my points because I know I'm right; I will agree to disagree.

And you are welcome to 'maintain that the 1st is viable' in your own games, but that's not going to convince the rest of us that it's so..

No, Palladium is not renewing the license, but there's quite a bit of useful information there that doesn't need the License to be updated to canon. Mutant Dinosaurs, Dimensional Portal Machines, Time Machines, even Time Travel Magic, these things can all be updated so that they are again valid in a Palladium RPG. Kev's never been a fan of time travel, but he always felt Erick did an excellent job with that book, so I'm rewriting it on spec.. Rifter article or dimensional sourcebook, we'll see in the end how it comes out..

But you can rest assured if my rewrite becomes canon, I won't be surprised when you refuse to acknowledge that it invalidates the original..

[Tor]

There are conversion notes for characters from both PF1st and PF2nd in some books. I don't see why they should be treated as one setting when things were changed between editions. One reality with SDC and one reality without, one where melees are 15 versus 60 seconds, that's a huge fundamental shift.

Since the TT machines and magic are based on Simultaneous and Dale I do wonder about whether it edges on copyvio. Albeit Erick pretty much designed the whole 'time twist' stuff himself I think, though I haven't read all the things related to Marcus/Renet in Mirageyet.

If you write up a fundamentally different setting that can't mesh with the old, it's easier to treat it as a new dimension so we maintain continuity. Of course, with time travel, you have a very simple means of wiping out entire realities (much as DC and Marvel like to do) which could wipe out the old first editions, so long as we get a nice explanation for it.

[eliakon]

Question here, if we are citing old books as evidence....what about the lines in BtS1, page 92
"All magic requires two things: 1) Mystic Knowledge and 2) sufficient Potential Psychic Energy (P.P.E.)
"ALL magic draws on what parapsychologists call potential psychic energy or P.P.E."
wouldn't those lines in and of themselves seem to support the contention that there is no such thing as P.P.E. free magic?

[Jefffar]

Locked for further review.

As of this point everyone has said what they will say on this topic any changes in position that might occur have occured. So don't bother reopening this discussion in another thread.