Character starting skill %

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Recently I took part in a forum discussion about skill percentages and skill checks. The purpose of this discussion was to help a new player understand how it all worked. I shared my understanding of skill % and how they work.

If in the character description it lists +10% to a given skill, your character adds +10 to the starting skill percentage as a one time bonus.

In the skill description if a skill is listed as being 55% +5% per level, 55% is the starting base skill level and 5% the increment it increases when your character gains a level.

So in this case the character would start out with a base skill % of 65%, and gain 5% when he reached level 2. This is how I've always understood things to be.

The next person to reply disagreed with me saying that the +5% should also be included in the starting level (giving the character a starting base of 70%) and that even Kevin(the man himself) rolled npc's this way.

I'm not going to name names or (intentionally) start any kind of heated debate of this. I'm just curious if I've been doing things wrong all these years.

Thanks,
Nate.

[dragonfett]

Everyone I have ever heard of have all done it where 55% + 5% meant that the first level you take the skill (1st level for most skills), your skill percent would be 55% and any bonuses you get would apply to it. Then the next level it would go up by 5%.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

So the way I've always done it is what you're saying Dragonfett?

55% (base skill level) at level 1
and then the +5% doesn't kick in until level 2

[filo_clarke]

While I generally agree that the skill at first level should start at 55% and receive the additional +5% at second level and above, I have begun to do things differently.

As a player I hated all the erasing and re-writing of the skill percentages every time I reached a new level. Add to that the confusion if someone couldn't remember if he/she had made the proper corrections at the last level, and then having to go back and "re-calculate" the skill from first level to make sure it is at the correct percentage.

So as a GM I began to give the players the +5% at first level. That way, when a player creates a character all they have to do is get the initial calculation of skill+bonuses correct, and from then on they just multiply the +5% by their current level and they have the total skill percentage. I don't feel like the extra +5% is such an extravagant bonus as to be game breaking, and it keeps the character sheets much neater in the long run.

When a player gets a skill at a later level, they simply mark the level at which they go the skill next to the percentage, or if they are really keen, subtract the percentage per level from the initial skill base and keep the multiplication the same (that's what I do).

[Nightmask]

Everyone I have ever heard of have all done it where 55% + 5% meant that the first level you take the skill (1st level for most skills), your skill percent would be 55% and any bonuses you get would apply to it. Then the next level it would go up by 5%.

The problem with that is that generally all the NPC show up as having it as that first level character having 60% for their starting percentage and going up from there. Plus there is precedent for that being correct as you see where they take the time to say 'per each additional level of experience' in some skills which implies that normally it's not that way and the increment applies to the first level as well as the later levels.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

So what you're saying Nightmask is that it can go either way. Adding the +5% at level 1 or not adding it until level 2. It all depends on the way the particular skill is written up and how closely edited the skill description is.

Not to start a side debate, but I thought it was pretty common knowledge that NPCs don't follow chargen rules

[Nightmask]

So what you're saying Nightmask is that it can go either way. Adding the +5% at level 1 or not adding it until level 2. It all depends on the way the particular skill is written up and how closely edited the skill description is.

Pretty much, the default seems to be that it's added starting from level 1 with some skills explicitly stating that it doesn't start until level 2. But as is sadly common with Palladium you run into contradictions where something seems like it should start at level 1 yet the examples seem to be starting at level 2 and vice versa. For myself I tend to go with things as I've described, it's certainly not going to hurt anything if they get that 5% (or whatever it might be) added on right from level 1 on rather than holding it back until level 2.

Not to start a side debate, but I thought it was pretty common knowledge that NPCs don't follow chargen rules

To some degree NPC don't true, but they don't generally exist completely contrary to all existing rules either and they are fairly consistent to the way I noted which means they generally are following the rules for character generation and leveling up in regard to skills. I realize some seem to think NPC don't follow any rules at all or everything about them is somehow contrary to the rules but that's really not the case, they are generally created like any other character and then they might have some exceptions tacked onto them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If in the class description it lists +10% to a given skill, your character adds +10 to the starting skill percentage as a one time bonus.

In the skill description if a skill is listed as being 55% +5% per level, 55% is the starting base skill level and 5% the increment it increases when your character gains a level.

So in this case the character would start out with a base skill % of 65%, and gain 5% when he reached level 2. This is how I've always understood things to be.

Did one correction, but otherwise These are correct.

Class bonuses (and any IQ bonus) are added to the starting base skill level during char creation.
Skills are listed with the base skill level and their level up bonus.
Thus if the char ended up with a class skill bonus of +10% to a 55% +5% per level its starting base % would be 65% and skill level at Level 2 will be 70%.

[Akashic Soldier]

I posted a link to your answer Nate in the thread. You are doing it right.

[Shawn Merrow]

Rifts Ultimate Edition has an example on page 300 under Skill Bonuses.

Swimming (50% +5%) with no O.C.C. bonuses starts at 50% at Level 2 it goes to 55%.

[Prysus]

Rifts Ultimate Edition has an example on page 300 under Skill Bonuses.

Swimming (50% +5%) with no O.C.C. bonuses starts at 50% at Level 2 it goes to 55%.

I was going to correct night mask and show that he was wrong but you pretty much beat me to it. So yeah...

Greetings and Salutations. Though just to be more thorough (before anyone claims that it's just Rifts) similar information can be found in HU2, PF2, Splicers, BtS2, Dead Reign, and Robotech Shadow Chronicles (found under "Step 5"). While many of those are copy and paste, in PF2 they use the Prowl skill for the example and HU2 uses the Computers Operation skill as the example. This further shows that this isn't just copy and paste, but something retyped (with skill name and % altered to fit the different examples) which helps show intention and forethought.

In RUE, you can also find a different example following those same rules on page 279 ("Skill Check" under game terms), and I believe the second quote is also found in ... um ... I think BtS2 (I know it was one of the newer books where they moved everything to the back). This helps to show it's not just one reference, but something repeated and makes a consistent pattern (within the rules, for NPC? *Shrug.* Never looked that closely to judge one way or the other).

Anyways, I just wanted to help add additional sources across multiple game lines, to show it's not just one book or one setting. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. I'm not opposed to the other way (as I don't think the bonus makes much difference), I just like accuracy.

[Nightmask]

Rifts Ultimate Edition has an example on page 300 under Skill Bonuses.

Swimming (50% +5%) with no O.C.C. bonuses starts at 50% at Level 2 it goes to 55%.

Which would make one wonder why you'd see any skills with 'per each additional level of experience' if that were how they were all handled, since it would be needlessly redundant and unnecessary. One doesn't go to the trouble of putting in such text if it's the standard, so while that example may follow that format Palladium itself hasn't been consistent in behaving as if that were the case.

[GreatArelius1]

The way I've understood it and GMed it through the years is the class bonuses & base at 1st level then +% per level of experience starting at 2nd level.

[flatline]

If a skill is listed as 55% + 5% per level, it's my understanding that Kevin's intent was to have the skill start at 55 and increase by 5% for every level gain.

However, he choose a very poor way to express his intent. Anyone with math or physics training will naturally (and correctly) interpret "X + Y per level" to mean "X + Y * level". What he should have said is "X + Y per additional level" or something to make it clear that he intended the value to be "X + Y * (level - 1)".

But even so, I ignore Kevin's intent and go with "X + Y * level" since that's how my engineering training has taught me to interpret "X + Y per level".

--flatline

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

If a skill is listed as 55% + 5% per level, it's my understanding that Kevin's intent was to have the skill start at 55 and increase by 5% for every level gain.

However, he choose a very poor way to express his intent. Anyone with math or physics training will naturally (and correctly) interpret "X + Y per level" to mean "X + Y * level". What he should have said is "X + Y per additional level" or something to make it clear that he intended the value to be "X + Y * (level - 1)".

But even so, I ignore Kevin's intent and go with "X + Y * level" since that's how my engineering training has taught me to interpret "X + Y per level".

--flatline

That's a lot of words to say the +y per level should start at level 2. Lol

[flatline]

If a skill is listed as 55% + 5% per level, it's my understanding that Kevin's intent was to have the skill start at 55 and increase by 5% for every level gain.

However, he choose a very poor way to express his intent. Anyone with math or physics training will naturally (and correctly) interpret "X + Y per level" to mean "X + Y * level". What he should have said is "X + Y per additional level" or something to make it clear that he intended the value to be "X + Y * (level - 1)".

But even so, I ignore Kevin's intent and go with "X + Y * level" since that's how my engineering training has taught me to interpret "X + Y per level".

--flatline

That's a lot of words to say the +y per level should start at level 2. Lol

If Kevin wants a skill to start at 55%, then he should have written it as "50% + 5% per level". If you're going to use notation that has existing meaning, then use it correctly. Don't adopt existing notation and then claim it means something else.

--flatline

[The Dark Elf]

Whatever the examples say. JD...

[Adventus]

1st level is a Level. hence it would be 60% using the example skill in topic. and with +10% that would bring it 70%. If it says per Additional level then it starts at level 2.

[The Dark Elf]

Dead Reign Skill check/rolling under your skill-

For example: a character with the surveillance skill gets the base skill of 30% but also gets a +20% bonus for his occupation and because he is 3rd level, an additional +10% (+5% per level of experience starting at level two), for a total of 60%. rolling 1-60 on percentile dice means he has successfully performed that skill.

That should clear it up for DR at least.

[Adventus]

See Page 300 RUE for skill percentage rules.

[flatline]

See Page 300 RUE for skill percentage rules.

For those of us who don't have our books handy can you please provide the relevant quote?

--flatline

[Adventus]

See Page 300 RUE for skill percentage rules.

For those of us who don't have our books handy can you please provide the relevant quote?

--flatline

For example: The Physical skill of
Swimming reads: Base Skill: 50% +5% per level of experience. This
means that a first level character without an O.C.C. bonus has a base
skill proficiency of 50%. At second level +5% is added to increase the
skill to 55%, at third level it increases to 60%, and so on. If a +10%
O.C.C. bonus was applicable, the base skill starts at 60% +5% per level
(i.e., 65% at second level, 70% at third, and so on).

[Rimmerdal]

Is there a book that explains NPC generation in any official rules? I have no difficulty as it is..but there are some would be curious to read them.

[Adventus]

Is there a book that explains NPC generation in any official rules? I have no difficulty as it is..but there are some would be curious to read them.

Heroes Unlimited GM Guide.

[Nightmask]

Is there a book that explains NPC generation in any official rules? I have no difficulty as it is..but there are some would be curious to read them.

I've never heard of any, the most I've seen is people in Q&A/FAQ asking about creating NPC and generally being told that for faceless NPC to just bare bones it, with fleshing out for more nameworthy characters like the Big Bad, a trusted NPC ally, etc. So presumably you're expect to create them like a PC while adding in whatever extras you feel like to round it out which can include just ignoring what you feel like ignoring (like making a 1st level LLW who has 5 times the normal starting PPE and expertise in piloting a Glitter Boy).

[Rimmerdal]

Is there a book that explains NPC generation in any official rules? I have no difficulty as it is..but there are some would be curious to read them.

I've never heard of any, the most I've seen is people in Q&A/FAQ asking about creating NPC and generally being told that for faceless NPC to just bare bones it, with fleshing out for more nameworthy characters like the Big Bad, a trusted NPC ally, etc. So presumably you're expect to create them like a PC while adding in whatever extras you feel like to round it out which can include just ignoring what you feel like ignoring (like making a 1st level LLW who has 5 times the normal starting PPE and expertise in piloting a Glitter Boy).

Guess they thought us rifts players should buy HU as I guess. Figured as much. If I look in the Rifters I'd likely find an article.

[Rimmerdal]

Is there a book that explains NPC generation in any official rules? I have no difficulty as it is..but there are some would be curious to read them.

Heroes Unlimited GM Guide.

and seeing as most Pally systems are easily crossed over makes sense not repeat material.

[Alrik Vas]

I don't allow skill increases. I just allow OCC bonuses, then they get to add the value of the an attribute that's related to the skill (PP for Prowl, PS for climb/swim, MA for Interrogation type skills, IQ Science/Lore etc, etc...)

You also don't get the IQ bonus to skills in my games.

However, at levels 3, 6, 9, 12 and 15, they add the % listed for increases you would normally get.

I know, i'm weird.

[Nightmask]

I don't allow skill increases. I just allow OCC bonuses, then they get to add the value of the an attribute that's related to the skill (PP for Prowl, PS for climb/swim, MA for Interrogation type skills, IQ Science/Lore etc, etc...)

You also don't get the IQ bonus to skills in my games.

However, at levels 3, 6, 9, 12 and 15, they add the % listed for increases you would normally get.

I know, i'm weird.

So the bottom grade IQ guy with an 8 in your game has the same skill percentage for Electrical Engineering as the guy with a 24? That's just wrong.

[Alrik Vas]

no...if electrical engineer is 50%, the guy with an 8 is a 58%, the guy with 24 is 74%

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts 22
In discussing OCC Skill bonuses:
The bonuses are the percentile numbers found in the parenthesis. The bonus is added to the base skill, indicating the superior level of expertise. For example, Computer Operation (+10%) means the cahracter is more knowledgeable in computers than the average hobbiest, so his skill proficiency is higher. Add the +10% to the base skill of 40%, for a total of 50%. At second level experience another 5% is added, making the skill 55%. At third level another 5% is added and so on.

Note that the base skill for Computer Operation is 40%.
Note that the "+5% per level" is not added until second level.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Rifts 22
In discussing OCC Skill bonuses:
The bonuses are the percentile numbers found in the parenthesis. The bonus is added to the base skill, indicating the superior level of expertise. For example, Computer Operation (+10%) means the cahracter is more knowledgeable in computers than the average hobbiest, so his skill proficiency is higher. Add the +10% to the base skill of 40%, for a total of 50%. At second level experience another 5% is added, making the skill 55%. At third level another 5% is added and so on.

Note that the base skill for Computer Operation is 40%.
Note that the "+5% per level" is not added until second level.

Thank you KC! See I knew I was right

[Myrrhibis]

Everyone I have ever heard of have all done it where 55% + 5% meant that the first level you take the skill (1st level for most skills), your skill percent would be 55% and any bonuses you get would apply to it. Then the next level it would go up by 5%.

This. For 25 years, across multiple PB-system games.

Unless it explicitly says "+x% each level" (such as, IIRC, Lew Line Walker OCC abilities), above is how we do it.