telekinesis: How does it work?

[torjones]

Ok, in my last gaming session, there was a major argument between two players as to how exactly TK Super works. I would like other's opinions on the situation please.

The player using the power paid enough ISP to lift a person (including his gear) off the ground and hold him to the ceiling. Player states he's holding the person as a whole.

The other player said that you couldn't hold a whole person, you had to have hold of certain parts of him. This would allow the NPC to draw a knife and throw it at a target of choice. Once that knife is airborn, for the TK Super using player to catch the knife, he would have to pay an additional 8 ISP to catch the knife, or to parry it. The reasoning for this is that Super is basically just like Simple, just able to carry more weight and quantity of objects, therefor, the knife costs extra ISP as it's a separate object.

The counter-counter argument was that he's already paid for more weight than the NPC weighed, which included the knife, so since the character is more than 2nd level, should have no problem with the second object being held (as the NPC is now lighter by one knife)

The counter-counter-counter argument was that the first player paid for the ability to move objects, he didn't pay for combat bonuses, which according to TK Simple, costs 8 ISP (the equivalent of a medium object). As it's a different effect that he's trying to use, it doesn't fall under the already paid for ability of the power in spite of the duration not having expired.

Questions:
1: is the NPC being held to the ceiling able to draw a weapon?
2: If the NPC is capable of drawing a weapon, and throws it at a PC, does the player holding the NPC against the ceiling require to pay 8 more ISP for the combat bonuses in order to catch the thrown knife, or is that part of what he's already paid?
3: would it be any different for TK Simple? (since you can only control one item at a time, the knife being thrown would need to be parried maybe? Would that parry attempt cause the person to be dropped?)
4: Can you treat the guy like a little marionette in the air?
5: If you've paid to activate a power you get everything that comes with that power including combat bonuses, unless, like in hydro/pyro/elecrto-kinesis, it separates out special sub-powers for the abilities (which is rare). Is this not correct?
6: Are the combat abilities are part of the power, or a sub power?

Thank you for your opinions!

[Prysus]

Ok, in my last gaming session, there was a major argument between two players as to how exactly TK Super works. I would like other's opinions on the situation please.

Greetings and Salutations. This is asking opinions, so I may use a few rules I'm not sure about, but will also try to keep it as close to by the book as possible (but unless I reference specific passages, this is just my best attempt to interpret the rules). For space purposes, I'm cutting out the player debate qoutes and just going to focus on the questions.

On a side note: Before I begin I feel I should also add there's an article on Telekinesis in Rifter #44 written by Mark Hall (author of the Mysteries of Magic book). This is not official, but you might consider checking it out as well.

1: is the NPC being held to the ceiling able to draw a weapon?

I would say "yes." Now I'll explain ...

I don't remember where I read it (might've been an old FAQ answer, which can be horribly inaccurate), but I remember an example of someone with Telekinesis not being able to fire a gun with TK. That's because holding the gun is one mechanism, but the trigger would be a second mechanism and you could only manipulate one at a time. I don't know if this is ever officially stated in a book or not though, so it could be inaccurate.

The examples in the book mentions moving objects. The description mentions things like "make an object hop, fall, roll, rise into the air, suspend it there (hover) or make it fly across the room." For combat purposes, throwing an object is the same as throwing it with your hands. At best I'd say what can you do with one hand (if that one hand could lift an amount of weight equal to Telekinesis value). This is really what the examples seem to show.

As for myself (and what I've seen from most other people on these forums, though I don't speak for everyone) it's more of grabbing the main body/torso, unless another limb is specified. As such a TK'd victim can grab onto something (to try and avoid being moved), or even fire a gun (in a setting such as Rifts where guns are available). This helps prevent a TK grab from being effectively an instant death. Of course, in settings such as PF, your options are far more limited.

2: If the NPC is capable of drawing a weapon, and throws it at a PC, does the player holding the NPC against the ceiling require to pay 8 more ISP for the combat bonuses in order to catch the thrown knife, or is that part of what he's already paid?

First, for the "8 I.S.P." comment in the Telekinesis (Super) section (I take it you're using RUE, because I don't believe that little line was in any of the other books), I believe that's a bad copy/paste job. If youl look at TK (Physical) you'll see the same comment. There it makes sense, as 8 I.S.P. is the cost for medium weight. The combat section for Super is pretty much just a copy/paste of this. As a result, that 8 I.S.P. probably isn't important, because Super TK costs 10 I.S.P. just to use, and considered expenditure for large/heavy objects already.

As for the rest, that really depends. With simple TK, you'd have to drop the person first. With Super TK, if you're second level or higher, and you're only manipulating that one person, then probably not a problem. Of course, if (for example) you spend 20 I.S.P. to lift a person who weighs exactly 200 pounds (with all his equipment) and his friend throws a knife at you ... you have to spend more I.S.P., because even though it's light weight it still exceeds the weight limit you paid for.

Note: "Medium" for TK is 11-25 pounds (see lesser TK for details), so if you want, you may want to rule that they need to be able to have at least that much to spare. So if the character spent 20 I.S.P. and the victim weights 195 pounds, no luck because the psychic didn't spent enough I.S.P. to lift between 205 and 220 pounds (where it falls into that range would be a G.M. call). However, if the victim only weighed 150 pounds, he could parry the knife with weight to spare!

3: would it be any different for TK Simple? (since you can only control one item at a time, the knife being thrown would need to be parried maybe? Would that parry attempt cause the person to be dropped?)

Yes. See above for details.

4: Can you treat the guy like a little marionette in the air?

In theory, yes. However, this would require more effort. First, as I mentioned above, my belief is that TK would only work on one limb at a time. Typically this is the torso/main body for simplicity (and any attack that's not a "called shot" automatically hits main body), but the psychic could in theory (if high enough level) manipulate each arm and each leg, as well as any other body parts for the desired act. If just those 4 limbs, using Super TK the psychic would have to Level 4 or higher. If you don't want to hurt the person too bad, you probably should manipulate the torso/main body as well (being held up by just your limbs is probably painful). If you want to move the head. That's more. Move the mouth, I'd consider the jaw another limb. Toes, elbows, wrists, and the list could go one. It really depends on how detailed the psychic wants to make it.

Note: If ruling the parry requires medium weight to be applied, each limb (if being resisted) may add that in as well. So trying to move a person's arms and legs (4 limbs) while the person is fighting/resisting could cost an extra 100 pounds. This is not a rule I've ever personally used, but throwing out ideas as I go.

5: If you've paid to activate a power you get everything that comes with that power including combat bonuses, unless, like in hydro/pyro/elecrto-kinesis, it separates out special sub-powers for the abilities (which is rare). Is this not correct?

Yes, this is correct. The 8 I.S.P. isn't so much a combat activation cost, as it is the minimum amount of weight to be manipulated. So if you have TK (Physical) and only spent enough I.S.P to manipulate small objects (3), then you can't parry! However, if you've spent 8 I.S.P. or higher then you can, but since with Phsyical you can only manipulate one object at a time it means dropping whatever else you were doing to parry (regardless of weight limits). With Super TK, if it falls into your weight limit and your object limit, you're good.

6: Are the combat abilities are part of the power, or a sub power?

Part of the power. See my response to #5.

Thank you for your opinions!

My pleasure. I just hope it helped. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

I remember an example of someone with Telekinesis not being able to fire a gun with TK. That's because holding the gun is one mechanism, but the trigger would be a second mechanism and you could only manipulate one at a time.

Couldn't you just move the gun to aim where you want, then let go of it and pull the trigger? I guess the recoil could possibly throw it off though. Plus you might have the problem of the gun being in freefall (if you aimed it in the air) or needing something to rest the gun on to maintain a proper angle at the target.

Wonder what rules would be if you had 2 psychics working in conjunction, 1 to aim and the other to fire.

[Rimmerdal]

Questions:
1: is the NPC being held to the ceiling able to draw a weapon?

I would say no. I envision telekinesis as a, essentially, a giant hand that wraps around them; their arms would be pinned to their side. Now, it could be argued that they could roll a strength test against the strength of the TK, but the problem is we have no idea who "strong" a TK (or super TK) field is. GM's call on the strength of the field.

2: If the NPC is capable of drawing a weapon, and throws it at a PC, does the player holding the NPC against the ceiling require to pay 8 more ISP for the combat bonuses in order to catch the thrown knife, or is that part of what he's already paid?

If they could throw a knife, I would rule the PC would have to make a seperate roll to catch/parry the knife before it hit its target (assuming it does), and also that they'd have to expend the full ISP to do so.

3: would it be any different for TK Simple? (since you can only control one item at a time, the knife being thrown would need to be parried maybe? Would that parry attempt cause the person to be dropped?)

Same answer as above.

4: Can you treat the guy like a little marionette in the air?

What does that mean, exactly? You can certainly pick someone up and throw them, but I'd rule that trying to manipulate individual limbs (unless maybe you're a Achilles Metahuman or a Pythonian) would require two seperate rolls: 1) a called-shot on the limb, and, if successful, 2) a seperate roll not to injure/crush the limb.

5: If you've paid to activate a power you get everything that comes with that power including combat bonuses, unless, like in hydro/pyro/elecrto-kinesis, it separates out special sub-powers for the abilities (which is rare). Is this not correct?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.

6: Are the combat abilities are part of the power, or a sub power?

That depends on the power and what you mean by "combat abilities".

Good questions.

A TK fields should have as much strength as it would take to lift the wieght you intended to lift when it was made. So say I make on to lift 50 pounds...its the PS of someone who can lift 50 pounds.

I would have a field vs a hand but I tend to agree with your basic idea. To prevent the Insta-kill I'd say the field provides some sort add shielding to the held target and surrounding area. Have to consider how that would work first. maybe the field slows/halts motion in its radius..and that is a whole kettle fish right there.

[Rimmerdal]

as for question 5.
Yes you activate power you get all the perks unless you specify you don't want it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

1) Depends on how you say you are holding the NPC to the ceiling with STK. (i.e.: your storytelling is a part of the roleplaying.)
1a) if you just say you are holing him/her up to the ceiling (just rollplaying) then the effects are applied to just the main body and the limbs are free to do stuff
1b) if you say you hold the NPC to the ceiling via the limbs then the limbs are not free to do stuff.

2) Depends on what level the char is and how much ISP he spent (total weight limit and duration). If the char has not maxed out his weight limit and the duration has not expired, then the throw object can be effected.

3) With TK the thrown object can't be effected by TK unless the psion drops the NPC.
Under the stated rules it is not defined whether or not a none TK action makes the TK help object drop.

4) Depends on how you describe how the char is holding said person up like I said in #1.

5) Yes, remember the STK text expands on the TK text. Insomuch that the only changes from the TK text bonuses/abilities is where the bonuses/abilities in the STK text supersedes the TK text.

6) Both the TK texts have no "sub-powers" listed in them.

[MADMANMIKE]

1) Depends on how you say you are holding the NPC to the ceiling with STK. (i.e.: your storytelling is a part of the roleplaying.)
1a) if you just say you are holing him/her up to the ceiling (just rollplaying) then the effects are applied to just the main body and the limbs are free to do stuff
1b) if you say you hold the NPC to the ceiling via the limbs then the limbs are not free to do stuff.

2) Depends on what level the char is and how much ISP he spent (total weight limit and duration). If the char has not maxed out his weight limit and the duration has not expired, then the throw object can be effected.

3) With TK the thrown object can't be effected by TK unless the psion drops the NPC.
Under the stated rules it is not defined whether or not a none TK action makes the TK help object drop.

4) Depends on how you describe how the char is holding said person up like I said in #1.

5) Yes, remember the STK text expands on the TK text. Insomuch that the only changes from the TK text bonuses/abilities is where the bonuses/abilities in the STK text supersedes the TK text.

6) Both the TK texts have no "sub-powers" listed in them.

This. I tend to GM in a "Djinn interpretation of character actions" way in order to encourage the players to be detail oriented in their descriptions.. it makes sense to me that if the player specified they were holding the NPC to the ceiling to incapacitate them, then they are incapacitated.. If they didn't clarify, I'd allow the NPC to act against them. That said, I usually spoon feed clues to the players that they need to clarify what they want to happen so everybody has fun; it isn't GM vs Players after all..