most powerful human OCC

[Alrik Vas]

As we all know the answer to this question really depends on your GM's amount of cooperation and flexibility.

A highly skilled merc could be much more powerful than a ley line walker for instance, because of spell choices or the GM setting the game in a magically difficult/restricted area. Or the Vagabond with super powers could be the strongest...if your GM goes with those options.

That all being said, I think the Battle Magius from FoM is probably the best bang for the buck as a human at level one.

[Blue_Lion]

The Annihilate spell does 2d4 X 100 MD, anything reduced to 0 MDC by it no longer exists. Anything with a very large volley of missile can destroy a GM in one shot.

[Alrik Vas]

"can" and "will" are very different. Regardless, we're not here to talk about what "could" happen in a game, but to discuss what, at level 1, has the best power for a human character. I think an ancestral GB pilot is a pretty good choice, not my first, but pretty good.

[Killer Cyborg]

[Is there a way to ascend to god hood in PB?

Yup.

But yes he would be a human and a god.

Well, in that case, we have a winner.

Hard to allow god and not allow cosmo knights.

That was my point.
Or rather, the other way around.
If Cosmo Knights can count as human, then Gods can too.

[Killer Cyborg]

Anything with a very large volley of missile can destroy a GM in one shot.

I've never had to get that dramatic about it. Usually a "Look behind you!" and a quick clubbing with a heavy dice-bag will take down the GM.
But it gets you in trouble for meta-gaming.

[Blue_Lion]

Anything with a very large volley of missile can destroy a GM in one shot.

I've never had to get that dramatic about it. Usually a "Look behind you!" and a quick clubbing with a heavy dice-bag will take down the GM.
But it gets you in trouble for meta-gaming.

Well he was saying that a GB was making it sound that a GB was the ultimate in 1-1 that can not be stopped in 1 attack. I was only pointing out that there are things in rifts that can 1 shot a GB easy. In is always something that can kill you easy.

[Shark_Force]

a regular LLW with magic net or carpet of adhesion and starting equipment may not kill that glitter boy with the spell, but the spell is certainly a death sentence if you get hit by it. the ley line walker starts with weapons as well, after all. if it's just a matter of spamming magic net while they get through your helmet with whatever they have on hand, like the fist of fury spell or the energy weapon they can start with, or slowly plinking you down with an efficient damage spell like throwing stones while you're helplessly pointed in the opposite direction courtesy of carpet of adhesion, you're still gonna die. alternately, simply destroying the boom gun (which is one of the weakest parts of the suit) while the glitter boy is helpless will also turn things around considerably.

and if that first spell is actually charismatic aura, the glitter boy could just wind up getting out of his fancy suit of armour to have lunch with the nice completely trustworthy stranger.

now, this is all a lot of "could", and is as i said all dependant on the mage getting close in the first place. as i said, it's all situational... the glitter boy has a lot of power in the form of shooting things and being pretty tough. the ley line walker doesn't offer nearly the range or damage or stamina of the glitter boy, but it *does* add a lot of other things. which one is more powerful depends on what you're trying to do, to a large extent.

[Alrik Vas]

Sharky, i'd say you took the words right out of my mouth, but you did everything short of actually quote me.

Awesome we're on the same page for once.


Though in the end, maybe we could narrow it down to "best all-around?"

There's got to be diffinitive class we can pick that would fit that. I know it depends on what we're looking for, but certain catagories like:

Damage Output Per Melee (from any source provided by the class)
Useable MDC (includes possible spells/psionics)
Class Combat Bonuses (initiative, dodge/parry, roll with impact, saves, attribute etc)
Class Mental Bonuses (attribute and save bonuses etc)
Class Skills (skill selection is very important, as well as the bonuses you get for skills from your class)
Starting Ammunition (PPE counts for this with magi)
Utility Access (this could be from spell selection, equipment available in a region like special sensors/disguises etc, TW items)
Starting Resources (includes items you begin with as well as money)

if we use these guidelines, i'm pretty sure we can come to a reasonable conclusion.

[RiftJunkie]

For what it's worth, these are what I consider the most powerful OCCs for what I consider a human.
In no particular order:
Demon Queller (Japan)
Mystic Knight (FoM)
Battle Mage (FoM)
Spirit Warrior (Spirit West)
Cyber-Knight (RUE)
Super-Spy (Mercenaries)

[Alrik Vas]

And that's a fair selection in my opinion.

[Killer Cyborg]

a regular LLW with magic net or carpet of adhesion and starting equipment may not kill that glitter boy with the spell, but the spell is certainly a death sentence if you get hit by it. the ley line walker starts with weapons as well, after all. if it's just a matter of spamming magic net while they get through your helmet with whatever they have on hand, like the fist of fury spell or the energy weapon they can start with, or slowly plinking you down with an efficient damage spell like throwing stones while you're helplessly pointed in the opposite direction courtesy of carpet of adhesion, you're still gonna die. alternately, simply destroying the boom gun (which is one of the weakest parts of the suit) while the glitter boy is helpless will also turn things around considerably.

All that CoA does to a Glitter Boy is make his pylons work even better.
Magic Net would do the trick IF the GM allows it to work on Glitter Boys. The spell "can snare up to 1-6 human-sized victims within a 10' area," but GBs are not human sized, and they're larger than 10'.

and if that first spell is actually charismatic aura, the glitter boy could just wind up getting out of his fancy suit of armour to have lunch with the nice completely trustworthy stranger.

True.

now, this is all a lot of "could", and is as i said all dependant on the mage getting close in the first place. as i said, it's all situational... the glitter boy has a lot of power in the form of shooting things and being pretty tough. the ley line walker doesn't offer nearly the range or damage or stamina of the glitter boy, but it *does* add a lot of other things. which one is more powerful depends on what you're trying to do, to a large extent.

Agreed!

[Shark_Force]

All that CoA does to a Glitter Boy is make his pylons work even better.

well, no. it makes them work better in one arc of fire i'll agree...

but generally speaking, that's only good news if you don't have a target approaching you from outside that arc of fire. now, we know the glitter boy is classed as a power armour, not a robot vehicle, so a 360 degree rotating torso is not really an option unless the pilot also has a 360 degree rotating torso.

or, in other words, the ley line walker is using carpet of adhesion to be able to walk up behind the glitter boy pilot, in the blind spot. at which point, the glitter boy pilot is likely to feel that the pylons are working a little *too* well.

[kaid]

Anything with a very large volley of missile can destroy a GM in one shot.

I've never had to get that dramatic about it. Usually a "Look behind you!" and a quick clubbing with a heavy dice-bag will take down the GM.
But it gets you in trouble for meta-gaming.

Well he was saying that a GB was making it sound that a GB was the ultimate in 1-1 that can not be stopped in 1 attack. I was only pointing out that there are things in rifts that can 1 shot a GB easy. In is always something that can kill you easy.

I was saying a level 1 LLW does not have the capability of one shotting a glitter boy. Even if they could get the spells it would be pretty unlikely they could get the PPE to cast it. Even if they had something like a scroll and managed to take the 2 or 3 actions needed to cast it without being blasted into mist you would have to roll max damage to have a shot at taking the GB out and that would only deplete out the main body leaving the reinforced pilot compartment still intact.

There are things tougher than a gb hehe a cosmo knight is one of them it was just a comparison for classes of SDC users. Higher level LLW with the magic items/scrolls/equipment they pick up over time are a real threat to a GB. An 8th level warlock who gets the drop on a GB is a HUGE threat as they are pretty much the masters of battlefield spell casting terror with large very high damage spell effects that are not brutally expensive to cast.

[kaid]

All that CoA does to a Glitter Boy is make his pylons work even better.

well, no. it makes them work better in one arc of fire i'll agree...

but generally speaking, that's only good news if you don't have a target approaching you from outside that arc of fire. now, we know the glitter boy is classed as a power armour, not a robot vehicle, so a 360 degree rotating torso is not really an option unless the pilot also has a 360 degree rotating torso.

or, in other words, the ley line walker is using carpet of adhesion to be able to walk up behind the glitter boy pilot, in the blind spot. at which point, the glitter boy pilot is likely to feel that the pylons are working a little *too* well.

One funny trick the GB has though is if you are close enough to cast CoA you are close enough to have the sonic boom effect you. Also the dead zone on a power armor is likely not that big. They cannot do the torso twist of some bigger mechs but if you look at what they are capable of as Melee hand to hand moves it is obvious they are highly mobile and well jointed so the dead spot likely is not that big.

Things like charismatic aura and most mind effecting spells do not work on people in power armor/robot vehicles. Magic net as mentioned does not effect larger than human sized targets and GB are nearly twice human size. That said it all depends on what one is looking for power wise. GB are classically powerful lots of endurance lots of durability and about the highest damage offensive with some of the best range available on rifts earth.

For powerful spell casters LLW are very strong but I would be overall more afraid of warlocks or elemental shaman. They attain full power MUCH sooner than a LLW and spend about half the PPE for their spells a LLW would and each of the elements offers warlocks at least one super deadly combat spell that effects a huge area of effect for hundreds of MDC at a cost thats reasonable enough most level 8 warlocks should be capable of casting it two to four times on their own PPE supplies without having to be on a ley line/nexus.

If we want to look at level 1 classes with starting gear for power levels I think one of the strongest spell casters would have to be the lemurian biomancer.

A spell caster who starts with a COUPLE sets of basically organic power armor that they can still spell cast from has a couple armor skins that work like heavy EBA and have a couple warsteeds some of which are basically giant sea serpents with close to dragon level durability. Some of these bioarmor they can start with grant auto dodge abilities so you are talking about a juicer like mobility on power armor that can cast spells riding on something most people would consider a dragon omgwtfbbq.

[Killer Cyborg]

All that CoA does to a Glitter Boy is make his pylons work even better.

well, no. it makes them work better in one arc of fire i'll agree...

but generally speaking, that's only good news if you don't have a target approaching you from outside that arc of fire. now, we know the glitter boy is classed as a power armour, not a robot vehicle, so a 360 degree rotating torso is not really an option unless the pilot also has a 360 degree rotating torso.

Doesn't have to be 360 degree rotating.

Stand with your feet firmly planted in one place on the ground.
Pretend you have a rifle.
Pretend somebody was sneaking up behind you.
Can YOU point a gun at that person, by twisting either one way or the other?

I can. It's not exactly tough.

[kaid]

All that CoA does to a Glitter Boy is make his pylons work even better.

well, no. it makes them work better in one arc of fire i'll agree...

but generally speaking, that's only good news if you don't have a target approaching you from outside that arc of fire. now, we know the glitter boy is classed as a power armour, not a robot vehicle, so a 360 degree rotating torso is not really an option unless the pilot also has a 360 degree rotating torso.

Doesn't have to be 360 degree rotating.

Stand with your feet firmly planted in one place on the ground.
Pretend you have a rifle.
Pretend somebody was sneaking up behind you.
Can YOU point a gun at that person, by twisting either one way or the other?

I can. It's not exactly tough.

Yup and any armor mobile enough to allow the use of martial arts when wearing it has to be pretty reasonably flexible. There may be a slight dead zone behind a gb but even with feet planted it is very possible to point pretty much dead behind you without twisting the torso much if at all. Now that said I pretty much DON'T want to fire a boom gun from that position but if the choice is that or death I would take the shot. Even if you miss unless you are in a wide open field blowing gigantic craters in the ground near a spell caster likely will make them move and if they move it is more difficult for them to stay in what blind spot a GB has.

[Shark_Force]

generally speaking, the guns i could fire behind me are not bolted to my shoulder in a more-or-less fixed-forward firing position, either. if the glitter boy has an appropriate sized alternate weapon, such as some of the handheld giant guns in the triax book, then yes... they could fire that. boom gun? not so much.

(and as to the sonic boom, that's pretty much just annoying, not truly effective, if it's the only way you're able to retaliate. it might slow down your death, but it likely won't prevent it).

edit: oh, and spells that don't work on targets in EBA and/or power armour say so. charismatic aura has no such limitation.

[Giant2005]

All that CoA does to a Glitter Boy is make his pylons work even better.

well, no. it makes them work better in one arc of fire i'll agree...

but generally speaking, that's only good news if you don't have a target approaching you from outside that arc of fire. now, we know the glitter boy is classed as a power armour, not a robot vehicle, so a 360 degree rotating torso is not really an option unless the pilot also has a 360 degree rotating torso.

Doesn't have to be 360 degree rotating.

Stand with your feet firmly planted in one place on the ground.
Pretend you have a rifle.
Pretend somebody was sneaking up behind you.
Can YOU point a gun at that person, by twisting either one way or the other?

I can. It's not exactly tough.

Its not a rifle, it is a shoulder-mounted cannon.
Can you point your right shoulder at someone coming behind you? If you can, you are far more flexible than your average non-circus performer and probably more flexible than the majority of circus performers too.
You could do it by leaning forward and firing behind your legs but the Boomgun itself is prohibitively too long for that technique and it would get stuck in the CoA as your bent forward. Even if you could get yourself in such a position, you would have some serious penalties to strike and would only get the one attempt as firing in such a position would render the stabilizing thrusters useless, causing you to destroy your own suit.

[kaid]

It really comes down to how much articulation in the waist does a glitterboy have. Looking at the images of a GB there appears to be an articulation point between the chest piece and the legs which tends to imply that area has flexibility. If it has even moderate ability to twist at the waist then yes you could shoot a shoulder mounted cannon behind you. Doing so probably knocks you on your face but it could be done.

Looking at most of the pics it seems to indicate any waist mobility issue is more leaning forward and back and not twisting side to side.

[RiftJunkie]

In reference to the GB, don't forget the recoil jets. How far of an arc do you think they can handle? And if you do get knocked on your face while standing on a CoA, you're really screwed.

[Killer Cyborg]

All that CoA does to a Glitter Boy is make his pylons work even better.

well, no. it makes them work better in one arc of fire i'll agree...

but generally speaking, that's only good news if you don't have a target approaching you from outside that arc of fire. now, we know the glitter boy is classed as a power armour, not a robot vehicle, so a 360 degree rotating torso is not really an option unless the pilot also has a 360 degree rotating torso.

Doesn't have to be 360 degree rotating.

Stand with your feet firmly planted in one place on the ground.
Pretend you have a rifle.
Pretend somebody was sneaking up behind you.
Can YOU point a gun at that person, by twisting either one way or the other?

I can. It's not exactly tough.

Its not a rifle, it is a shoulder-mounted cannon.
Can you point your right shoulder at someone coming behind you?

Sure, depending on what part of the shoulder I want to point with.

Being shoulder-mounted only matters if the attachment to the shoulder interferes with normal arm and body movements (while holding the gun).
There is no mention of any such restrictions anywhere in the books that I'm aware of.

[Killer Cyborg]

In reference to the GB, don't forget the recoil jets. How far of an arc do you think they can handle?

Pretty far, I'd say.

And if you do get knocked on your face while standing on a CoA, you're really screwed.

Yup!

[Giant2005]

All that CoA does to a Glitter Boy is make his pylons work even better.

well, no. it makes them work better in one arc of fire i'll agree...

but generally speaking, that's only good news if you don't have a target approaching you from outside that arc of fire. now, we know the glitter boy is classed as a power armour, not a robot vehicle, so a 360 degree rotating torso is not really an option unless the pilot also has a 360 degree rotating torso.

Doesn't have to be 360 degree rotating.

Stand with your feet firmly planted in one place on the ground.
Pretend you have a rifle.
Pretend somebody was sneaking up behind you.
Can YOU point a gun at that person, by twisting either one way or the other?

I can. It's not exactly tough.

Its not a rifle, it is a shoulder-mounted cannon.
Can you point your right shoulder at someone coming behind you?

Sure, depending on what part of the shoulder I want to point with.

Being shoulder-mounted only matters if the attachment to the shoulder interferes with normal arm and body movements (while holding the gun).
There is no mention of any such restrictions anywhere in the books that I'm aware of.

The Triax GB at least clarifies that regarding its own version: "The Boom Gun can angle itself forward and upward in a vertical, 60 degree, arc of fire, but cannot pivot from side to side. To strike a target off to the side, the entire power armor must be turned to face that direction."
Sure the argument could be made that only the Triax GB acts in that manner but I don't see why Triax would add such a drawback if it wasn't mandatory. Their engineers are portrayed as being more competent than that.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Triax GB at least clarifies that regarding its own version: "The Boom Gun can angle itself forward and upward in a vertical, 60 degree, arc of fire, but cannot pivot from side to side. To strike a target off to the side, the entire power armor must be turned to face that direction."
Sure the argument could be made that only the Triax GB acts in that manner but I don't see why Triax would add such a drawback if it wasn't mandatory. Their engineers are portrayed as being more competent than that.

The pics of the original GB show a wider arc than that.
That's the whole reason that the recoil suppression system's jets pivot, because the gun's angle changes from side-to-side as well as up and down.

So Triax might have some good engineers, but they seem to have made a funky choice or two with their armor.

[Giant2005]

The Triax GB at least clarifies that regarding its own version: "The Boom Gun can angle itself forward and upward in a vertical, 60 degree, arc of fire, but cannot pivot from side to side. To strike a target off to the side, the entire power armor must be turned to face that direction."
Sure the argument could be made that only the Triax GB acts in that manner but I don't see why Triax would add such a drawback if it wasn't mandatory. Their engineers are portrayed as being more competent than that.

The pics of the original GB show a wider arc than that.
That's the whole reason that the recoil suppression system's jets pivot, because the gun's angle changes from side-to-side as well as up and down.

So Triax might have some good engineers, but they seem to have made a funky choice or two with their armor.

You are going to have to source that one man.
It makes far more sense for the jets to pivot for the sake of the GB's leaping and swimming capabilities than it does for the Triax engineering department to only hire people that aren't smart enough to realize a fully mobile gun is better than one that can't pivot.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Triax GB at least clarifies that regarding its own version: "The Boom Gun can angle itself forward and upward in a vertical, 60 degree, arc of fire, but cannot pivot from side to side. To strike a target off to the side, the entire power armor must be turned to face that direction."
Sure the argument could be made that only the Triax GB acts in that manner but I don't see why Triax would add such a drawback if it wasn't mandatory. Their engineers are portrayed as being more competent than that.

The pics of the original GB show a wider arc than that.
That's the whole reason that the recoil suppression system's jets pivot, because the gun's angle changes from side-to-side as well as up and down.

So Triax might have some good engineers, but they seem to have made a funky choice or two with their armor.

You are going to have to source that one man.
It makes far more sense for the jets to pivot for the sake of the GB's leaping and swimming capabilities than it does for the Triax engineering department to only hire people that aren't smart enough to realize a fully mobile gun is better than one that can't pivot.

It's the "recoil suppression system," not the "leaping and swimming system."
And they pivot in coordination with the gun.

RUE 73, center top panel, labeled "Glitter Boy Recoil Suppression," and "Recoil Dampening Thrusters" shows the swivel motors acting to counter-balance the gun as the gun swings to the right.
It says: "Thrusters are synchronized to gun elevation and side to side sweep. Thrusters fire only when gun is fired."

Edit:
Also, if you look at the picture of the Triax GB compared to the normal GB, you should notice that the Triax GB's Boom Gun is actually permanently fixed to the shoulder, and lacks any kind of external trigger.
It's a hands-free, automated system, as opposed to the original GB's gun-like system.
My guess is that the Triax engineers figured that limiting the flexibility of the weapon was a small price to pay for a hands-free system that allows the GB to use additional weapons like the TX-500, TX-50 or the VX Maxi-Rail Gun, as well as the anti-personnel laser in what would normally be the gun arm.

[Giant2005]

The Triax GB at least clarifies that regarding its own version: "The Boom Gun can angle itself forward and upward in a vertical, 60 degree, arc of fire, but cannot pivot from side to side. To strike a target off to the side, the entire power armor must be turned to face that direction."
Sure the argument could be made that only the Triax GB acts in that manner but I don't see why Triax would add such a drawback if it wasn't mandatory. Their engineers are portrayed as being more competent than that.

The pics of the original GB show a wider arc than that.
That's the whole reason that the recoil suppression system's jets pivot, because the gun's angle changes from side-to-side as well as up and down.

So Triax might have some good engineers, but they seem to have made a funky choice or two with their armor.

You are going to have to source that one man.
It makes far more sense for the jets to pivot for the sake of the GB's leaping and swimming capabilities than it does for the Triax engineering department to only hire people that aren't smart enough to realize a fully mobile gun is better than one that can't pivot.

It's the "recoil suppression system," not the "leaping and swimming system."
And they pivot in coordination with the gun.

RUE 73, center top panel, labeled "Glitter Boy Recoil Suppression," and "Recoil Dampening Thrusters" shows the swivel motors acting to counter-balance the gun as the gun swings to the right.
It says: "Thrusters are synchronized to gun elevation and side to side sweep. Thrusters fire only when gun is fired."

Edit:
Also, if you look at the picture of the Triax GB compared to the normal GB, you should notice that the Triax GB's Boom Gun is actually permanently fixed to the shoulder, and lacks any kind of external trigger.
It's a hands-free, automated system, as opposed to the original GB's gun-like system.
My guess is that the Triax engineers figured that limiting the flexibility of the weapon was a small price to pay for a hands-free system that allows the GB to use additional weapons like the TX-500, TX-50 or the VX Maxi-Rail Gun, as well as the anti-personnel laser in what would normally be the gun arm.

You are absolutely right on all accounts.
However, that same diagram shows the gun swiveling to the right about 15 degrees before it can't move any further due to the back of the gun hitting the GB's backpack. It doesn't come anywhere near close enough to being able to shoot behind.
I am probably not the most flexible guy in the world but I just testing with my own body and while keeping my hips forward, I was able to rotate my right shoulder about 65 degrees and a further 15 from the gun. Reasonably, I couldn't expect any more than 90 degrees top end from anyone that isn't a trained contortionist.

[Killer Cyborg]

You are absolutely right on all accounts.
However, that same diagram shows the gun swiveling to the right about 15 degrees before it can't move any further due to the back of the gun hitting the GB's backpack.

No, the diagram shows that the gun can swivel at least that distance. There is no statement or indication that the movement demonstrated is the maximum.
I suppose that it is possible that what is shown is the maximum ability to move, but I believe it's a heck of a lot more likely that it was just a demonstration of some of the possibilities.
I'd hate to think that the gun could only swing to the right, for example, without any ability to swing to the left. That would seem like a rather random limitation.

[Tor]

anything where you lose your original human body. Look at it like vampires. No matter what species you are (at least in the original WB1), no matter what your attributes were, when you become a vampire you are rebooted into a new lifeform that has new stats and new powers.

Rerolling attributes is not necessarily losing your true body. If rolling something other than 3d6 means you were no longer human, this would disqualify the Natural/Genius from Nightbane. Some super abilities raise attributes to a set level rather than add a bonus, it's more of a variation than something that means replacement.

The same, iirc, applies to Cosmo-Knights. Yes, you look the same, but almost everything about you has transformed into something else.

That's not clearly established. Let's keep in mind that if racial attributes are higher than CKs they override the CK dice, so it's still an influence.

Same with Borgs. Your DNA is human, but your body is not.

Well, PART of your body is not. We still need a fair means on where to draw the line here. What about partial borgs? Cyberknights?

Same with Bio-Borgs, for that matter, and they're not an OCC or an RCC, just something that can happen to transform you into something inhuman.

Still, how many symbiotes/transmutations can someone have before they cease to be human? If getting add-ons negates your species (or effectively for the purposes of this 'human OCC thread' question) then what about Maxi-Men?

We know the CS accepts mutants with super-abilities (Psi-Ghosts)

Well, they USE Psi-Ghosts. That's not necessarily the same thing as accepting them as human. They use Dog Boys too.

True but I've seen no indication that Psi-Ghosts get treated differently from other psionics, and I don't think the CS classifies normal psychics as non-human.

We know the CS accepts mutants with super-abilities (Psi-Ghosts) so for all we know they could accept Operators with Invulnerability too. =/

Check out the NPC "Psythe" in Arzno, page 71.

His minor genetic aberrations are enough to prevent him from taking part in mainstream society, and caused him to be persecuted terribly by the Coalition States.

And all he has is Alert and Quick Responses.

I'm going to take Arzno stuff with a grain of salt, are those the traits from Lone Star? I think Lone Star would've mentioned if the CS cared terribly about those things. The CS hating on a guy for being alert and quick is silly.

[Killer Cyborg]

anything where you lose your original human body. Look at it like vampires. No matter what species you are (at least in the original WB1), no matter what your attributes were, when you become a vampire you are rebooted into a new lifeform that has new stats and new powers.

Rerolling attributes is not necessarily losing your true body. If rolling something other than 3d6 means you were no longer human, this would disqualify the Natural/Genius from Nightbane. Some super abilities raise attributes to a set level rather than add a bonus, it's more of a variation than something that means replacement.

Natural/Genius benefits come from specific psychic enhancement. It's not an actual physical transformation into another kind of being, complete with new attributes, skills, and powers.
And, again, if you don't think that physically transforming into a new kind of being makes you no longer human, that's cool- we'll just go with Gods as the most powerful human class.

The same, iirc, applies to Cosmo-Knights. Yes, you look the same, but almost everything about you has transformed into something else.

That's not clearly established. Let's keep in mind that if racial attributes are higher than CKs they override the CK dice, so it's still an influence.

That actually might make a difference. I don't remember that part of the rules, and my Phase World book disappeared a while back.

Same with Borgs. Your DNA is human, but your body is not.

Well, PART of your body is not. We still need a fair means on where to draw the line here. What about partial borgs? Cyberknights?

They're still human, because there's enough of their original human parts that they're humans with cybernetics, not cybernetics with some human parts.

Same with Bio-Borgs, for that matter, and they're not an OCC or an RCC, just something that can happen to transform you into something inhuman.

Still, how many symbiotes/transmutations can someone have before they cease to be human?

Loki's Wager.

If getting add-ons negates your species (or effectively for the purposes of this 'human OCC thread' question) then what about Maxi-Men?

Don't remember much about Maxi-Men, so I can't say.

We know the CS accepts mutants with super-abilities (Psi-Ghosts)

Well, they USE Psi-Ghosts. That's not necessarily the same thing as accepting them as human. They use Dog Boys too.

True but I've seen no indication that Psi-Ghosts get treated differently from other psionics, and I don't think the CS classifies normal psychics as non-human.

Not normal psychics, no. But IIRC Psi-Stalkers are "mutant humans," and the CS treats them accordingly, although they do have special status due to their utility.

[Vrykolas2k]

Gods aren't a human class, they're gods.

[Killer Cyborg]

Gods aren't a human class, they're gods.

Not by the standard presented earlier.
Of course, I agree with you, but I also wouldn't count Cosmo Knights as human.

[Tor]

Natural/Genius benefits come from specific psychic enhancement. It's not an actual physical transformation into another kind of being, complete with new attributes, skills, and powers.

Isn't it? They don't just get +1 to all attributes, that's actually incorporated into their roll-up and affects whether or not they get a bonus die. There's no clear basis on where to draw the line on what a 'physical transformation' is. These guys can get a mega SDC boost and even supernatural strength. Cosmo-Knights become MDC, but you don't want to draw the line there so I'm not sure where we draw it. Both the PCC and the OCC alter the base dice, this much is clear.

if you don't think that physically transforming into a new kind of being makes you no longer human, that's cool- we'll just go with Gods as the most powerful human class.

Where are you getting this 'new kind of being' thing? Also yeah, becoming a god doesn't mean you're necessarily no longer human. Dragon-gods are still dragons, after all. But god is not listed as an OCC, and the thread title says OCC, not class

still human, because there's enough of their original human parts that they're humans with cybernetics, not cybernetics with some human parts.

Partial conversion borgs may have more than 50% of their bodies replaced though. The core of a full conversion borg is still human. Even if it's just a brain, that's still 'human with cybernetics'. The brain can't be demeaned to just some 'human part' when it is the driving force.

Loki's Wager.

Me: *woosh*

Don't remember much about Maxi-Men, so I can't say.

Get magical ink injections, makes them MDC creatures.

Not normal psychics, no. But IIRC Psi-Stalkers are "mutant humans," and the CS treats them accordingly, although they do have special status due to their utility.

I think to first discriminate against Psi-Ghosts they'd have to establish that the Intangibility wasn't a psionic power. I guess they would have the means of doing that by asking them to do it and seeing if a Psi-Stalker detects psionics in use.

wouldn't count Cosmo Knights as human.

We just need a clear basis for why this should be done, and see if there can be consensus about it. If it's not MDC (which other OCCs can give) and it's not rerolling attributes (which a PCC can give) then is it flavor text?

[Blue_Lion]

Gods aren't a human class, they're gods.

Not by the standard presented earlier.
Of course, I agree with you, but I also wouldn't count Cosmo Knights as human.

It really comes down to how the charter was made if you select god or godling as a race then you are not human but if you have a way to turn a human into a god then he still is a human.

[Killer Cyborg]

Gods aren't a human class, they're gods.

Not by the standard presented earlier.
Of course, I agree with you, but I also wouldn't count Cosmo Knights as human.

It really comes down to how the charter was made if you select god or godling as a race then you are not human but if you have a way to turn a human into a god then he still is a human.

What's the difference?

[Killer Cyborg]

Natural/Genius benefits come from specific psychic enhancement. It's not an actual physical transformation into another kind of being, complete with new attributes, skills, and powers.

Isn't it? They don't just get +1 to all attributes, that's actually incorporated into their roll-up and affects whether or not they get a bonus die. There's no clear basis on where to draw the line on what a 'physical transformation' is. These guys can get a mega SDC boost and even supernatural strength. Cosmo-Knights become MDC, but you don't want to draw the line there so I'm not sure where we draw it. Both the PCC and the OCC alter the base dice, this much is clear.

A Genius PCC gets +1d4 to three attributes. Not a big difference.
A Natural Athlete gets +1d6 to tthree different attributes, after using "standard 3d6 determination" to generate attributes.
They can also spend additional PPE to increase various attributes by +1 point for x PPE.
Not any real transformation, just some attribute bonuses.

if you don't think that physically transforming into a new kind of being makes you no longer human, that's cool- we'll just go with Gods as the most powerful human class.

Where are you getting this 'new kind of being' thing?

Your attributes and skills change. Your body changes. You're no longer the same person that you were.
You're a new kind of being, different from the old kind that you used to be.

Also yeah, becoming a god doesn't mean you're necessarily no longer human. Dragon-gods are still dragons, after all.

Only kind of.
If your GM says you can roll up a "Dragon" for your PC, and you roll up a Dragon God, there are going to be some issues. Because there's a difference between gods and non-gods.

But god is not listed as an OCC, and the thread title says OCC, not class

THAT is true.
But my point is that I'd think of Cosmo Knight as more of an RCC than an OCC, akin to vampires, Gods, and such.

still human, because there's enough of their original human parts that they're humans with cybernetics, not cybernetics with some human parts.

Partial conversion borgs may have more than 50% of their bodies replaced though.

RUE 75
However, they remain human-looking, keep as much of their body as possible and never become more machine than human.

The core of a full conversion borg is still human. Even if it's just a brain, that's still 'human with cybernetics'. The brain can't be demeaned to just some 'human part' when it is the driving force.

I'd say that the mind is the driving force, not the brain.
Even still, I wouldn't call a Transferred Intelligence Bot "human," even with that driving force transferred into a new body.
A human mind in an inhuman body does not make a human being.

Not normal psychics, no. But IIRC Psi-Stalkers are "mutant humans," and the CS treats them accordingly, although they do have special status due to their utility.

I think to first discriminate against Psi-Ghosts they'd have to establish that the Intangibility wasn't a psionic power. I guess they would have the means of doing that by asking them to do it and seeing if a Psi-Stalker detects psionics in use.

I think that Dog Boys can sniff out mutations. Though I might be misremembering that one.
See Aura can, in any case.

wouldn't count Cosmo Knights as human.

We just need a clear basis for why this should be done, and see if there can be consensus about it. If it's not MDC (which other OCCs can give) and it's not rerolling attributes (which a PCC can give) then is it flavor text?

It's not JUST MDC, and it's not JUST re-rolling attributes.
It's the combination of those things, along with rebooting skills, gaining superhuman powers and abilities, etc.

[Tor]

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the "Natural & Genius" PCC in Between the Shadows. Sounds like you might be referring to a similarly titled one in Beyond the Supernatural (prob 2nd ed) which ironically, Between the Shadows was adapting from the first edition, I think. Confusion's inevitable with class reprints I guess.

The NAG from Nightbane can't boost attributes at a +1/1PPE basis, rather they boost skills at +3%/1PPE basis.

attributes and skills change. Your body changes.

This describes a lot of classes.

You're no longer the same person that you were.

If that were true, why would the Forge make sure you consented to the process first? Seems like an extrapolation here.

You're a new kind of being, different from the old kind that you used to be.

A lot of classes make you a different being. Psychic Slayers/Stalkers are different beings.

Dragon-gods are still dragons, after all.

Only kind of. If your GM says you can roll up a "Dragon" for your PC, and you roll up a Dragon God, there are going to be some issues. Because there's a difference between gods and non-gods.

GMs might also take issue if you chose to roll up an adult or ancient dragon =/

I'd think of Cosmo Knight as more of an RCC than an OCC, akin to vampires, Gods, and such.

My bet is a Guardian would be the closest comparison. I pretty much agree with you here about what it should be, but I can't make a vowel into a consonant.

RUE 75 However, they remain human-looking, keep as much of their body as possible and never become more machine than human.

I'd say that the mind is the driving force, not the brain. Even still, I wouldn't call a Transferred Intelligence Bot "human," even with that driving force transferred into a new body. A human mind in an inhuman body does not make a human being.

True but in the case of borgs it's still a biological brain.

This begs an interesting question though: is the Ecto-Traveler from Mindwerks a human OCC to you?

See Aura can, in any case.

That can't distinguish aliens/mutants from people with a serious illness though Besides, the only aura seers are psionics, who probably understand discrimination (and experience a similar degree of it) so they probably wouldn't be gossiping about it.

wouldn't count Cosmo Knights as human.

We just need a clear basis for why this should be done, and see if there can be consensus about it. If it's not MDC (which other OCCs can give) and it's not rerolling attributes (which a PCC can give) then is it flavor text?

not JUST MDC, and it's not JUST re-rolling attributes. It's the combination of those things, along with rebooting skills, gaining superhuman powers and abilities, etc.

If one single thing can't disqualify a class on its own then it shouldn't be able to do it at all, unless we can define some specific combination of traits which would (for other classes too, if they had that combination) also disqualify them.

You can presumably lose a skill if you get mind-wiped so I don't think amnesia exactly removes your humanity. Presumably we're not excluding the Lord Magus or those various Mystic Russia classes that turn you MDC? Not excluding the Nightbane NAG either. So each component on its own is fine, no rational I can see for the combination counteracting humanity.

[Killer Cyborg]

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the "Natural & Genius" PCC in Between the Shadows. Sounds like you might be referring to a similarly titled one in Beyond the Supernatural (prob 2nd ed) which ironically, Between the Shadows was adapting from the first edition, I think. Confusion's inevitable with class reprints I guess.

The NAG from Nightbane can't boost attributes at a +1/1PPE basis, rather they boost skills at +3%/1PPE basis.

Okay.

attributes and skills change. Your body changes.

This describes a lot of classes.

None that I'm really aware of.
Juicers and Crazies have changed attributes, but their skills don't automatically get reset to a new pattern.

You're no longer the same person that you were.

If that were true, why would the Forge make sure you consented to the process first? Seems like an extrapolation here.

Why not?

You're a new kind of being, different from the old kind that you used to be.

A lot of classes make you a different being. Psychic Slayers/Stalkers are different beings.

Normal humans can't become Psi-stalkers or psi-slayers, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Dragon-gods are still dragons, after all.

Only kind of. If your GM says you can roll up a "Dragon" for your PC, and you roll up a Dragon God, there are going to be some issues. Because there's a difference between gods and non-gods.

GMs might also take issue if you chose to roll up an adult or ancient dragon =/

Yup.
But probably not the same issue.

I'd think of Cosmo Knight as more of an RCC than an OCC, akin to vampires, Gods, and such.

My bet is a Guardian would be the closest comparison. I pretty much agree with you here about what it should be, but I can't make a vowel into a consonant.

It's pretty easy. Just use white-out.

RUE 75 However, they remain human-looking, keep as much of their body as possible and never become more machine than human.

I'd say that the mind is the driving force, not the brain. Even still, I wouldn't call a Transferred Intelligence Bot "human," even with that driving force transferred into a new body. A human mind in an inhuman body does not make a human being.

True but in the case of borgs it's still a biological brain.

This begs an interesting question though: is the Ecto-Traveler from Mindwerks a human OCC to you?

Reading over the class, I'd say that they're human (assuming that's their race).
The ectoplasmic body isn't their real body. They're just a human that is psychically possessing a construct.
If their real body dies, and the construct is their only physical body, then I'd say that they're "no longer human," because they do not have a human body any longer.

See Aura can, in any case.

That can't distinguish aliens/mutants from people with a serious illness though Besides, the only aura seers are psionics, who probably understand discrimination (and experience a similar degree of it) so they probably wouldn't be gossiping about it.

No need for gossip. Many psychics are in the employee of the CS. It would be as simple as, "Private, can you sense if that thing is a mutant?"
Although, yes, the answer isn't always clear. But a bit of study and experimentation would get the necessary answers.

wouldn't count Cosmo Knights as human.

We just need a clear basis for why this should be done, and see if there can be consensus about it. If it's not MDC (which other OCCs can give) and it's not rerolling attributes (which a PCC can give) then is it flavor text?

not JUST MDC, and it's not JUST re-rolling attributes. It's the combination of those things, along with rebooting skills, gaining superhuman powers and abilities, etc.

If one single thing can't disqualify a class on its own then it shouldn't be able to do it at all, unless we can define some specific combination of traits which would (for other classes too, if they had that combination) also disqualify them.

Seems like a bizarre and random thing to insist on.

You can presumably lose a skill if you get mind-wiped so I don't think amnesia exactly removes your humanity.

I'd say that depends on how cleanly you're wiped.
Corpses' minds are completely gone, and they're no longer considered human beings.

Presumably we're not excluding the Lord Magus or those various Mystic Russia classes that turn you MDC?

Not familiar with Russia, but the Lord Magus seems okay from what I remember.
As I said, simply being an MDC being isn't really an issue.
Vampires aren't MDC, but they're also no longer human.
Wormwood humans are MDC, but they're still humans.

So each component on its own is fine, no rational I can see for the combination counteracting humanity.

Why not?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

What is meant by "powerful" please define!

[kaid]

In reference to the GB, don't forget the recoil jets. How far of an arc do you think they can handle? And if you do get knocked on your face while standing on a CoA, you're really screwed.

Well unless you kill the person who cast it on you then its only mildly embarassing as you wait for its duration to wear off.

[kaid]

Was rereading lemuria last night while watching some football. That has another prime example of term murkyness. They list the lemurians as an RCC and since lemurians are sighly upgraded but otherwise human then humans must be an RCC as well which makes the debate about cosmo knights even stranger and more murky.

If lemurians are worthy of being an RCC then so would pretty much every psychic as they are all mutant humans. The argument could potentially go for magic users as well are they "human" humans or are they mutants. Given the depth of the murk involving these terms I would tend to recommend just going with the term the books use and in that case cosmo knights are an OCC.

[Blue_Lion]

In reference to the GB, don't forget the recoil jets. How far of an arc do you think they can handle? And if you do get knocked on your face while standing on a CoA, you're really screwed.

Well unless you kill the person who cast it on you then its only mildly embarassing as you wait for its duration to wear off.

Well according to rules as written you can not kill them in 1 shot because of the GI-Joe rule. So if you unable to shoot them more than once do to striking you boom gun on the ground during recoil.

I did some experimenting with a broom and rolls of paper towels on my shoulder. You can hit the left and right rear flank- but it is unlikely your recoil jets can match the sharp angle. The bulk of adding the paper towels to the broom prevented from being able to aim the broom behind me even by bending over as my own body blocked the shot. (done because the boom gun is a little bulky.)

Going off the storage position of the boom gun it does have the ability to rotate 180 degrees, but I do not think the Rifts RPG dawning of the tracking thrusters does not look like they can match that.

[Killer Cyborg]

Was rereading lemuria last night while watching some football. That has another prime example of term murkyness. They list the lemurians as an RCC and since lemurians are sighly upgraded but otherwise human then humans must be an RCC as well which makes the debate about cosmo knights even stranger and more murky.

If lemurians are worthy of being an RCC then so would pretty much every psychic as they are all mutant humans. The argument could potentially go for magic users as well are they "human" humans or are they mutants. Given the depth of the murk involving these terms I would tend to recommend just going with the term the books use and in that case cosmo knights are an OCC.

Right.
Palladium has NEVER been very clear or consistent on what makes something an RCC or OCC.

[Blue_Lion]

The easiest way I find to define it is that your race defines your class. But even then there can be complications.

[Vrykolas2k]

In reference to the GB, don't forget the recoil jets. How far of an arc do you think they can handle? And if you do get knocked on your face while standing on a CoA, you're really screwed.

Well unless you kill the person who cast it on you then its only mildly embarassing as you wait for its duration to wear off.

Well according to rules as written you can not kill them in 1 shot because of the GI-Joe rule. So if you unable to shoot them more than once do to striking you boom gun on the ground during recoil.

I did some experimenting with a broom and rolls of paper towels on my shoulder. You can hit the left and right rear flank- but it is unlikely your recoil jets can match the sharp angle. The bulk of adding the paper towels to the broom prevented from being able to aim the broom behind me even by bending over as my own body blocked the shot. (done because the boom gun is a little bulky.)

Going off the storage position of the boom gun it does have the ability to rotate 180 degrees, but I do not think the Rifts RPG dawning of the tracking thrusters does not look like they can match that.

Yes, the GI Joe rule.
An epic pile of crap.
Best to ignore it.

[Blue_Lion]

In reference to the GB, don't forget the recoil jets. How far of an arc do you think they can handle? And if you do get knocked on your face while standing on a CoA, you're really screwed.

Well unless you kill the person who cast it on you then its only mildly embarassing as you wait for its duration to wear off.

Well according to rules as written you can not kill them in 1 shot because of the GI-Joe rule. So if you unable to shoot them more than once do to striking you boom gun on the ground during recoil.

I did some experimenting with a broom and rolls of paper towels on my shoulder. You can hit the left and right rear flank- but it is unlikely your recoil jets can match the sharp angle. The bulk of adding the paper towels to the broom prevented from being able to aim the broom behind me even by bending over as my own body blocked the shot. (done because the boom gun is a little bulky.)

Going off the storage position of the boom gun it does have the ability to rotate 180 degrees, but I do not think the Rifts RPG dawning of the tracking thrusters does not look like they can match that.

Yes, the GI Joe rule.
An epic pile of crap.
Best to ignore it.

Weather you agree with it or not it is part of the Rules as written.

There was a spell which could do the same thing before the GI Joe rule. So do not think just because your target is a mage he is just going to vaporize when you look at him. (some none main book mages can eve have both spells at level 1.

[Shark_Force]

Was rereading lemuria last night while watching some football. That has another prime example of term murkyness. They list the lemurians as an RCC and since lemurians are sighly upgraded but otherwise human then humans must be an RCC as well which makes the debate about cosmo knights even stranger and more murky.

If lemurians are worthy of being an RCC then so would pretty much every psychic as they are all mutant humans. The argument could potentially go for magic users as well are they "human" humans or are they mutants. Given the depth of the murk involving these terms I would tend to recommend just going with the term the books use and in that case cosmo knights are an OCC.

Right.
Palladium has NEVER been very clear or consistent on what makes something an RCC or OCC.

oh, they've been fairly clear at times. not consistent in application, by any means, but they've been clear on it before.

[Blue_Lion]

Was rereading lemuria last night while watching some football. That has another prime example of term murkyness. They list the lemurians as an RCC and since lemurians are sighly upgraded but otherwise human then humans must be an RCC as well which makes the debate about cosmo knights even stranger and more murky.

If lemurians are worthy of being an RCC then so would pretty much every psychic as they are all mutant humans. The argument could potentially go for magic users as well are they "human" humans or are they mutants. Given the depth of the murk involving these terms I would tend to recommend just going with the term the books use and in that case cosmo knights are an OCC.

Right.
Palladium has NEVER been very clear or consistent on what makes something an RCC or OCC.

oh, they've been fairly clear at times. not consistent in application, by any means, but they've been clear on it before.

If they are not consistent then it is not clear to them, so they can never be clear on it just stating what they think at the time.

[Killer Cyborg]

In reference to the GB, don't forget the recoil jets. How far of an arc do you think they can handle? And if you do get knocked on your face while standing on a CoA, you're really screwed.

Well unless you kill the person who cast it on you then its only mildly embarassing as you wait for its duration to wear off.

Well according to rules as written you can not kill them in 1 shot because of the GI-Joe rule. So if you unable to shoot them more than once do to striking you boom gun on the ground during recoil.

I did some experimenting with a broom and rolls of paper towels on my shoulder. You can hit the left and right rear flank- but it is unlikely your recoil jets can match the sharp angle. The bulk of adding the paper towels to the broom prevented from being able to aim the broom behind me even by bending over as my own body blocked the shot. (done because the boom gun is a little bulky.)

Going off the storage position of the boom gun it does have the ability to rotate 180 degrees, but I do not think the Rifts RPG dawning of the tracking thrusters does not look like they can match that.

Yes, the GI Joe rule.
An epic pile of crap.
Best to ignore it.

Weather you agree with it or not it is part of the Rules as written.

There was a spell which could do the same thing before the GI Joe rule. So do not think just because your target is a mage he is just going to vaporize when you look at him. (some none main book mages can eve have both spells at level 1.

The GI-Joe Rule is supposed to be used with the infamous "common sense." It's NOT intended to be infinite, and Kevin was surprised to learn that some people interpreted it that way.
So it would be a perfectly fair GM's call to say that if you've only got 50 MDC, and you're shot for 150 MD, you just plain old-fashioned die.

[Tor]

Many psychics are in the employee of the CS. It would be as simple as, "Private, can you sense if that thing is a mutant?"

See Aura can't distinguish a mutation from an illness, though, so you could just as easily be detecting hemophilia. Not to mention that new mutations occur all the time and may not necessarily be associated with any powers.

Ideally if the CS is building profiles on people, it might estabilsh info like this when constructing one. In terms of casual discrimination from the populace (keeping in mind that even minor psionics don't need chips in them) it probably wouldn't happen though. If a guy with a mutation was running for public office, sure, rumors would slip out, but unless there's a reason to be interacting with CS military or other psychics who might have info on the person, gasual gossip about mutations wouldn't cause much everyday problems for the usual citizen.

If one single thing can't disqualify a class on its own then it shouldn't be able to do it at all, unless we can define some specific combination of traits which would (for other classes too, if they had that combination) also disqualify them.

Seems like a bizarre and random thing to insist on.

each component on its own is fine, no rational I can see for the combination counteracting humanity.

Why not?

There needs to be a basis of explanation for why the synergy of 2 traits would create a new status, haven't seen it. From my perspective, this combo qualification is bizarre/random.

I did some experimenting with a broom and rolls of paper towels on my shoulder. You can hit the left and right rear flank- but it is unlikely your recoil jets can match the sharp angle. The bulk of adding the paper towels to the broom prevented from being able to aim the broom behind me even by bending over as my own body blocked the shot. (done because the boom gun is a little bulky.)

I need to see a video of this. Please tell me someone out there has cosplayed a Glitter Boy at a scifi convention somewhere. If not, this should be something Palladium should arrange the next anime con Kevin goes to.

Or a Glitter Girl. Because, y'know, use what sells.

the GI Joe rule. An epic pile of crap. Best to ignore it.

Or just modify it. There was something similar in CB1 regarding spillover damage from shields (but it only prevented 1D6, not everything) which was more reasonable.