Intimidating Skills vs Horror Factor

[Grimlock]

Hey all,

As Rifts enthusiasts all know, challenges in Rifts resolved with either use a d20 roll or a percentile (d%) roll. Sometimes, however, you get situations where a d% roll needs to be contested against a d20 roll. For example, pg.368 of "Rifts: Ultimate Edition" has the heading "Perception vs. Stealth and Concealment Skills" which details how you can translate a skill's level into a bonus for a d20 "roll-off".

I wanted to present a question here to get some input on how I'm adapting the same rule for for intimidating an opponent, by offsetting intimidation skills against a Horror Factor d20 roll.

First of all, take a look at the New Zealand All-Blacks Rugby team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealan ... _team#Haka). They perform a traditional Maori war dance/chant before each match, in order to intimidate their opponents. How would you calculate this attempt to intimidate in a Rifts scenario?

There are 22 players on the field. Assuming all the players have the necessary skills to perform the dance at their base level (Performance [30%], Dance [30%], Sing [35%]), I would do the following:

The LEADER of the dance would do the rolling. They would get a bonus to their d20 roll based on the skills they were successful in rolling, based on the guidelines provide in RUE/pg.368: +1 for every 10% of skill. With the above statistics, the LEADER would get +0 if all 3 skills rolls failed, but +9 if all three skill rolls were successful. This d20+9 roll would be a part of a "roll-off" against the target, who would roll a d20 + their Horror Factor bonus, if any. High roll wins, with ties going to the defender.

How would you guys handle this scenario differently? Would make any adjustments based on the fact that 22 guys are perfoming the dance together?

[Tor]

I like the idea of synergizing these two, makes a lot of sense. There should also be a way to synergize awe factor with trust (and intimidation, unlike HF which should only be intimidate) and probably charm/impress as well.

a traditional Maori war dance/chant before each match, in order to intimidate their opponents. How would you calculate this attempt to intimidate in a Rifts scenario?

If it's anything like The Usos and their Samoan chants, I'd instill a comedy factor.

[Alrik Vas]

I'd just rule the dance has a HF of 12 if you're seeing it in person, and for the first time. There comes a point where you can weather things like that. Though it's a neato idea.

[Grimlock]

@Tor: I'm sure there are other scenarios where bonuses for a d20 roll can be provided by a relevant skill, though I can't think of any examples at the moment.

@Alrik Vas: So, you'd have an HF of 12 for a successful intimidating dance, but what about the Performance skill? What HF would you give for a guy with both Dance AND Performance?

[Dog_O_War]

A few thoughts on this; while intimidation and a horror factor can be synonymous, they aren't always.

What this means is that being a horror can help you intimidate, just as performing some act of intimidation can add to the horror, they won't always.

For instance; having your college career boil down to a big test can be quite intimidating, but that isn't scary in the same sense as horror factor within Palladium.

Horror factor is something truly horrifying; a monster, a serial killer, an alien realm, the dark, etc. all draw on basic fears of man.

What I am getting at here is that bonuses and penalties should be situational; intimidating a rich man by saying that you're going to turn him into a homeless bum can't really be aided by the fact that you may be a scary thing, just as a war dance done by a soccer team at say, a wedding isn't really intimidating, but more awkward (or cool and inspiring, depending on the crowd).

What I am getting at here is that these things in my opinion should be worked on a pass/fail grading system; if in the soccer match, the war-dance is successful (but not by how successful; it's either going to work or it's not), then it should provide a bonus to intimidate.

Just as having a horror factor might lend itself to an intimidation attempt, but I would check to see if the target is in-fact scared of the creature intimidating it before automatically assigning bonuses.

Just something to consider.

[Alrik Vas]

Well said, actually.

[Grimlock]

@Dog_O_War: I didn't think of it like that at all. While something Horrific can be intimidating, one is not synonymous with the other. I would agree that Horror Factor works in a more instinctual reaction to shock, while Intimidation is more contextual and circumstantial.

@Everyone: This opens up a whole can of worms for me, now. I don't think I'm sure how to handle intimidation in Rifts anymore.

I understand that characters with a high Mental Affinity have a percentage chance to Intimidate someone, but how is this opposed? Is a successful roll a successful roll, and the target of the Intimidation has no recourse? No defense?

What about characters with a lower Mental Affinity Stat? How do THEY Intimidate others?

AND, how does the Performance skill work? Not just in terms of intimidating others; what good is it for?


I understand now that Horror Factor and Intimidation AREN'T linked together, but what is the alternative?

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are rules about how to use the MA % in theN&S book, in the "Warrior's Spirit" kata. Where the opponent has to role over the Char's MA % to not be intimidated.

Note, not all people agree that these rules apply to the use of the MA% in general, because they say that the rules presented in the WS kata only apply to the use of the WS kata. However, this is the only place in any of the books that I have found that have any rules about how to use the MA %.

Even the recent Rifter article about the MA attribute did not lay down any rules for die roles to use in individual events, only in grenaralities of how it effects the overarching story aspect of the game.

[Grimlock]

So, even the Mental Affinity attribute isn't helpful?

Maybe I should just ask: How is intimidation handled in your games?


And, to reiterate my previous question: How does the "Performance" skill work?

[Dog_O_War]

Mental Affinity allows a person to "get a read" on another person; to see how their mind works. For example, you can't really intimidate a mob hit man with violence; this is something that is part of his daily life - he is numb to that.

But maybe you catch some kind of clue about his personality; maybe you threaten to destroy a prized possession, or ruin his livelihood or something.

The point of intimidation is to get someone to back down or otherwise take the wind out of their sails; intimidation is not always about striking fear into someone. It's about rendering them powerless.

When someone (a player) states that they wish to intimidate someone, you have to break from just saying "okay, make your roll" (what I assume is 'typical'), and start to ask how they wish to intimidate that someone.

Working into this method, I would recommend offering players advice, like telling them that they should choose a method: Getting a Read; Using a Skill; Giving Away Nothing; Relying on Physique.

By Getting a Read, they are rolling their Mental Affinity before rolling their intimidation; a successful read lends a bonus; a failed read can give a penalty.

By Using a Skill, they are rolling a skill they think would be relevant; the dance skill for a wardance in the case of the All Blacks, maybe even something like physics in a college setting where you're trying to intimidate a rival with your knowledge. Either way, a relevant skill with a successful roll offers a bonus. A failed roll, like trying to get a read, can give a penalty.

With the method of Giving Away Nothing, this is your dark room with a bright light tactic; your bluff, your reliance on the unknown. It will be the most common. This relies on the opponent knowing nothing about the intimidator; this is what most players will likely roll most of the time, as this method relies on a lack of information and spontaneity. This will also be the hardest for a GM to assess; you need to consider all the factors. A low Mental Affinity works in the player's favour here, as they are going for a stone-face (ie: no emotions). If the player has the bluff skill, this is the spot to roll it (again, either adding a bonus or penalty). Setting adds a bonus or penalty (dark room with a bright light would be a bonus scenario, while a crowded mall would be a penalty). Having visibly powerful or well-armed allies adds a bonus/penalty (depending on whose allies they are), etc. This one requires much consideration and calculation on the part of the GM.

The method of Relying on Physique is a scenario where you're attempting to strike fear into your opponent. You would add a bonus based on things such as horror factor, physical strength, and a show of power (like crushing a helmet with your power-armoured hand, etc.). The only real penalty here is that the more powerful and horrifying your opponent is, the less likely this method will work.

A thing to note here is that in all scenarios, the person trying to intimidate must actually do or say something to intimidate their opponent.

Finally, there are just some people who cannot be intimidated. Ever. Even by scary monsters. A person completely incoherent (sleeping, on drugs, etc.) will likely not be intimidated. Telling someone that you're going to kill them, wipe out their family, bankrupt them, etc. while in the middle of a fire-fight really won't have an effect. And then there are crazy people; these are more than just Crazies - these are people without a sense of fear, or are so callous or in a completely rock-bottom point in their lives that you literally cannot take anything more away from them; they are immune because there is nothing left to render them powerless by.

More stuff to consider.

[Grimlock]

Thanks, Dog_O_War. I appreciate all of the insight, and look forward to applying your techniques.

I'm still kinda stuck, though. I understand that context is everything when it comes to how the Intimidation is carried out, but how would you relate this to the mechanics of the game?

I guess my biggest question is: What does a character roll to resist the attempt to be Intimidated?

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Some of the topics have already been discussed (such as the differences between Horror Factor and Intimidation), so I won't touch on those as much. But I'll try to touch on some of the things that weren't addressed, or try to add some new thoughts/insights into others.

Disclaimer: Since almost none of this is discussed very well in the rules, almost all of this will be my personal thoughts, at least a few times created on the spot (so not even tested). Take all of that for what you will.

Would make any adjustments based on the fact that 22 guys are perfoming the dance together?

In your specific situation, I wouldn't do it much different. I wouldn't make each member roll (because that's almost guaranteeing failures on at least a few of them), and they're the same numbers so it wouldn't change much there either. I mention numbers because I once did make up some house rules for Horror Factor depending upon the number of people (which depends on the size of both groups).

http://www.prysus.com/horror_factor_expanded.htm

Similar rules can be applied to other things, such as intimidation, if so desired.

What about characters with a lower Mental Affinity Stat? How do THEY Intimidate others?

They don't. If they're lucky they have a horror factor. Otherwise the best they can do is actions. He can take actions that might freak someone out, but he in and of himself will not be.

Think of seeing some 5'5" guy, scrawny 135 pounds, glasses, Mike Tyson type of voice ... and imagine him trying to be scary. You're more likely to laugh than be intimidated. He might suddenly snap and kill 20 people in front of your eyes ... and you're going to be freaked out! But that's not an intimidation roll. He might have a bunch of damning blackmail information on you and once he utters a few parts (and mentions the fail safes in store so even beating him up won't do you any good), and you'll kiss the ground he walks on just so he keeps his mouth shut ... but that's not an intimidation roll.

Intimidation (for me) has always been more of that presence. It doesn't have to have a tangible quality. Take the same scrawny guy above ... but now when you go to do or say something, he stops and shoots you a look, that cold dark look that sends a chill up your spine. It's like a Spidey Sense going off telling you to be careful, even if you don't know why. Even though you think you're smarter than this guy and/or more physically imposing, you just don't want to mess with him because ... you don't know why, you just don't!

Not sure if you've ever seen or known this type of person (or are this type of person), but this is what the high M.A. Intimidation represents to me. It's not a skill, it's a presence/vibe. There's just no way to represent this with a lower M.A. (unless you do something like kill the 20 people without breaking a sweat, have a bunch of blackmail info, etc., most of which will involve role-playing or using other skills, but not just a standard intimidation).

AND, how does the Performance skill work? Not just in terms of intimidating others; what good is it for?

Nothing to do with Intimidation really, but since you asked ...

How does the Dance skill work? What good is it for?

Performance is much the same. It won't do you a lot of good in many situations, but it's a skill used by performers. Actors are probably the easiest example (this is their livelihood!), but performers in general. Ever see two people tell the same (or similar) jokes, but one is funnier than the other? It's the setup, the style, the presentation, the extra flair. Two jugglers performing side-by-side, both equal skill, yet one suddenly flips one of his objects behind his back to give an extra "Ooooo ... Ahhhhh ..." It's noted that politicians use the skill as well, such as during speeches and publicity events.

If you'd like examples beyond just role-playing though ... think of a movie (or TV show or book) that's had a character that's totally outmatched. He has no hope of holding off an enemy attack, but he bluffs. He goes out, meets the enemy commander face to face, and tells him how they have 20,000 men ready to meet them. The enemy commander laughs. Then he sees the men on the wall (dead bodies dressed up), and maybe a few parlor tricks or booby traps that help sell it. Performance in action (along with possibly some other skills during the setup).

I'm still kinda stuck, though. I understand that context is everything when it comes to how the Intimidation is carried out, but how would you relate this to the mechanics of the game?

I guess my biggest question is: What does a character roll to resist the attempt to be Intimidated?

Unfortunately, this is an area that Palladium hasn't really fleshed out in game mechanics. The closest we have is the N&S Kata that drewkitty ~..~ mentioned earlier. However, this is how I'd tend to do it personally (which doesn't mean this is canon/official, just how I'd run it as an individual) ...

1: I tend to treat Intimidation as a saving throw, not a skill. If a character is trying to intimidate, it's everyone else who rolls %. You have to roll over the character's Intimidation % or else fail. This is reflected in the N&S version (though I'll note I created the rule for my games independently, and was just happy to see some version of canon agreed with that concept).

2: If you want to make it easier for some to save, you might have those making a save subtract their % from the target save. Ugh ... I probably said that oddly. Okay, example: Player A is trying to intimidate a group of bad guys. His M.A. is 25, so he has 84%. There are 5 bad guys he's facing, so each rolls %. NPC V, W, X, and Y need to roll 85% or higher to save. Anything lower and they're intimidated. NPC Z however is the enemy leader, and he gained his minions by having an influential personality with an M.A. of 20. That gives him Intimidation at 60%. 84-60=24. So NPC Z only needs a 25% or higher to save. Note: I've never used this rule myself (and just made it up off the top of my head), but it could let character design play a more active roll in the save.

3: More importantly than any other, people are individuals. This is important. Why? Because not everyone will react the same way. Some people will cower in fear, some people run, some people will just cooperate however they can to avoid being hurt, etc. Of course, then there's the other people who respond negatively to intimidation. Try to intimidate them and they might become MORE aggressive! Instead of acting scared, they just add another level of bravado on top to cover it up. Then there are the people who can ignore the Intimidation (more or less) and let their intellect tell them how to respond. They might be a bit slower to think, but they won't panic either.

I know that's not a great game mechanic, but remember there are no listed penalties for being Intimidated either. I use it as a role-playing concept, not a hard game mechanic. Random and meaningless mook gets intimidated? Yeah, he'll probably give you whatever information you want or do whatever you say (within reason). Smart characters might get intimidated, but won't do something stupid either. If he knows the information you need is the only thing stopping you from killing him, doesn't matter how intimidated he is he's not going to give that info. Sure, he's terrified you might hurt him, but being hurt is better than being dead. Poor innocent civilian? He's so busy crying that you can't get anything out of him. Sure he has info you need, but he's too hysterical to be of any use now. Veteran who survived years of enemy torture and didn't break, turned bad-arse merc ... yeah, good luck.

There are no set mechanics for it, and people react differently. I tend to judge it on a case by case scenario. I know that's not the best answer, but it's just the way I do it. I try to have a good idea of all the NPC in my head, so I can respond how they'd react to various situations. If it's someone I don't have well thought out, then I just try to go by archetype and some general concept.

Anyways, I think that's all for now. I hope some of that helped. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Grimlock]

I appreciate your input, Prysus. I've read your replies in the past and I'm glad you were able to chime in on my question.

And it's not as simple as a roll in the game mechanics. I need to look at these scenarios from more of a story-telling angle, and be less concerned with the rolls involved, analyzing how all the different elements of the story establish the context of the scenario.

And thanks for the "World Book: Prysus" link as well.

[say652]

Easy use this formula.
5 percent =1. So a Intimidate of 80 percent vs a HF of 16. Or a 16 vs 16 on D20. You could also roll 80 vs 80 on percentile if you wish instead.