TGE vs Atlorian Empire,Who wins?

[gaby]

A TGE,s Ship discover a Wormhold,to a Another Galaxy(the H.U,s One),the Empiror order a Fleet of 55 ships To invaded,they have 5 Doombringer and 50 smashers.
the Arrived just outside of the Atorian borders.
It time the meet a 50 Atorian,s ships who Win?

[Nekira Sudacne]

The TGE would win, and win handily. Kreegor ships, even converted to SDC for the new setting, are far more advanced, with weapons at least twice as effective on a type-for-type basis, and the Atorians have absolutely nothing to cope with a doombringer. and they have 5? Sorry Atorians, i'm afraid new management has come to town.

What would happen is the doombringers hang back and send out over 10,000 fighters to help their fleet pepper the enemy cruisers and battleships. This will likely be more than sufficent to win, but in the off chance that the battle is turning poorly they can engage and blast the enemy to bits with their own firepower. Weakened by fighters and escorts, the andorians simply have no answer to the doombringers.

All this is barring PC intervention, of course...

[sagajr]

And really? Are you comparing the Packaged Ships from AUGG to those from Rifts? The AU ships are more powerful by 100 times.
More arms to bear, and better warriors too.

I think the Atorian ships are not more powerful, just use a totally different system to create their own vesselt and that is why their ships have insanely high SDC values compared to the MDC value of the TGE ships.
If you calculate the kreeghor vessels the same way as the AU vessels, the kreeghor ships will be invulnerable.
Also don't forget that the TGE ships have shields (and energy shields stops radiation damage), higher mass - which means higher SDC value - better weapons (more damage and some of their weapons have greater range), and they have many magic wielding troopers (Silhouettes) who ignores (with ipervious to energy spell) most energy weapon damage directed against them. or if they want to, they can hide/protect their own vessel with magic against the Atorian ships.

The Kreeghor Fightercraft can easily destroy any AU fighters (good guns, lots of missiles and some variants can carry 4 cruise missiles over their standard weapon package) and all smaller enemy ships even if you use the 2:1 SDC/MDC ratio, and a Doombringer carry 900 of them if the ship do not carry any additional fighters in its million tons capacity cargo hold. The only are where a Flying Fang will lose is the lack of FTL drive, while nearly all fighters in the AU setting use FTL system (even if their maximum speed is extremely slow compared to the TGE standard 4 light-years per hour FTL speed).

However, the Kreeghor vessels are underarmed for their mass and size and this is a fact.

[Nekira Sudacne]

actually, I was presuming that sinse MDC is only SDCx100, if you convert an MDC to an SDC enviroment they get their MDCx100 in SDC. just as tough, but they are no longer impervious to SDC attacks that do less than 100 damage. That would give the doombringer 35 million SDC, compared to the andorian battleships paltry 2.1 million. likewise their beam weapons would be dealing 4d4*100,000 SDC and that's just secondary laser cannons. converting them any other way makes no sense, as otherwise i'm pretty sure that a kreegor frigate would be little tougher than a modern American aircraft carrier SDC wise.

[Alrik Vas]

Don't the kreegor have super-powers on some of their guys (Invincible Guardsmen)? That alone can jack up things like crazy. However, Rappanui, the conversion you are using is clearly favorable to the Atorians, while the general conversion of 1:100 is pretty standard.

[Nekira Sudacne]

actually, I was presuming that sinse MDC is only SDCx100, if you convert an MDC to an SDC enviroment they get their MDCx100 in SDC. just as tough, but they are no longer impervious to SDC attacks that do less than 100 damage. That would give the doombringer 35 million SDC, compared to the andorian battleships paltry 2.1 million. likewise their beam weapons would be dealing 4d4*100,000 SDC and that's just secondary laser cannons. converting them any other way makes no sense, as otherwise i'm pretty sure that a kreegor frigate would be little tougher than a modern American aircraft carrier SDC wise.

No Palladium book Ever Suggests MDC stays SDC in 100:1 ratio. Except that silly spell : Universal balance.

your version of events there for are wrong, and Ill fated.

The palladium books say it's up to the GM to decide how it works, generally, so my version is no more wrong with yours.

and that's the real problem with the senario. how you convert one to the other makes a huge difference.

[Braden Campbell]

TGE wins through economic victory and weight of numbers if nothing else.

[Alrik Vas]

I apparently need to stop giving a @#*#@($% about the "Unlimited" books, because it sounds like a hoot to read.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The TGE would have the speed advantage over the Atorians. (HU starships are $%^&$& slow in FTL). The TGE could get localized superiority over the Atorians even if the Atorian's fleet is larger.

It also depends on which galexy the battles are being fought in. Locals would have a home court advantage cause the attacker would not want to uncover their home systems to attack by their other enemies.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, tactics can't be even, as both sides use different tools. A 50 ship fleet on both sides makes for a poor comparison. While a ton of feathers and a ton of lead weigh the same, their density creates a large difference between the two.

[Alrik Vas]

I'd suggest using the Megaverse builder, don't remember which book it's in, but it's much more detailed about conversions with MDC to SDC than Scraypers, which is ol' Kev eyeballing it.

[sagajr]

now let's Review the Smashers:
SDC: 36,000 AR: 15 shield: 9000

The shield MDC value of the Smasher is 18000 (3000 per side), so it will be 36000 SDC if you use the 1:2 ratio...
However, no rules for converting MDC to SDC in the AU:GG book, only for SDC to MDC, and if you use the x2 multiplier for the hull, multiply the damage delivered by the weapon system on the TGE ships as well (those weapons designed to damage those hardened materials), and double the SDC value of the fighters (I know, that the SDC of the AU:GG fighter won't be doubled if rifted to MDC setting, but you use a different rule).

Or you can also compile the rule described in the AU:GG book. In this case the SDC of the Smasher will be 144000 + 144000 (shields and hull combined, if we use the destroyer category). While the SDC of the Doombringer will be 1.4 million (extremely low for a ship with that mass and size) for the hull and another 240000 from the shields.

The TGE also use singularity cruise missiles (1d6x1000 MDC damage, 300 ft area, cannot be carried by fighters) on their large crafts, not only anti-matter cruise missiles. The TGE can use Star Ghost ships as fighters if they want to, because, every major powers in the 3G use those special ships.

However, all these do not affect the fact that the Smashers are worthless cannon fodders. They are just light carriers with a single big gun. Only the TGE calls them cruisers. Even the TGE's own dropship (Rain of Death) can kill them easily (especially if they carry platoons of Power Armored Troops) or their heavy tank the Doomsday Machine (its main cannons do more damage than any other medium ship gun and its range is several thousand miles in space!).
The other strikingly worthless ship of their line is the Executioner (they call it battleship, but it is only a planetary assault ship/troop transport ship, on the other hand it is the fastest ship in the TGE with its 6 light-years per hour FTL drive). The whole TGE fleet is a piece of junk (weak, underarmed, slow at STL speed, equipped with the worst weapons in the 3G) without the least chance against any other power in the Three Galaxies.


Unless the TGE fleet caught by surprise (most military ships in the 3 Galaxies can detect FTL movement within 5 light-years), engagement between the two fleets will not happen (small skirmishes will happen to assess the enemy's capabilities and see their tactic). The TGE fleet just jump to any planet, bombard it then move to the next planet in a different system. They are too fast for the Atorian ships to catch.
Also they can attack the Atorian ships in FTL, do some damage on their ships and move away (thanks to their much better FTL drives) before they would suffer any or too much damage. TGE ships just need to follow an Atorian ship/formation from behind, attack it, then leave before retaliatory strike. One by one, the Atorian fleet will be devastated. So thanks to the speed superiority of their ships, no need for real, open space battle between the fleets.

[sagajr]

the only problem is the Atorians Use Satellites and are likely to Fill a Planet with defense platforms. the the "Metropolis" class stations are more heavily armed and armored then the Robotech Defense Satellites. THere's NO escaping the Grand Cannon Obsession of the AU GG Ships. :0
also, planetary invasion? That'll likely be Suicide for TGE troops, unless they're attacking Mantella troops. a Proper atorian force would disable the TGE Troops Much more efficiently.
The TGE Can only hope to fight back with Invincible Guard...Atorians can send entire Drop ships with Photins and Dinoshock troops as well as Atorian Assault Robots (which are Insanely tough, easily the better of the TGE's Giant Kreeghor robot)... ThE Photins can just fly under the TGE' Radar, And light the place up with radiation meltdown attacks..
the other troops causing regular ruckus and devestation with atorian plasma and sonic weaponry.

Those satellites are small and cannot carry heavy weapons do damage the TGE "cruisers" and "Dreadnoughts", so the only defense against a bombardment attack (I don't mention planetary assault or invasion -unless we fill the Doombringers gigantic cargo holds with additional troops and assault force the TGE fleet is poorly equipped for a planetary assault -, just bombardment to cause panic and damage to the planet; even a suicide Smasher is able to devastate the surface, thanks to its anti-matter reactor) are the stations.

Grand cannons are very good guns, but these guns are not placed in turrets (nothing says these guns are mounted on turrets, which means those frightening grand cannons are only devastating if its carrier ship faces the right direction and the enemy is far away without the ability to strike back).

Atorians are non powered beeings, they are no match for the superhuman/semi-supernatural beeings like Kreeghor/Silhouette/Skaa/other species. Also the TGE has its own borgs (mostly human and wolfen - wolfen quatoria equivalent), its own "super" beeings (Machine people -robotic category equivalent- and Silhouettes -magic category), magic troops and the Invincible Guardsman.

Photins were once the elite shocktroopers but nowadays they are not serve in the same role (they are rare and no longer used as troops). They are good, especially their radiation ability, but the radiation can be detected with sensors - even with hand sensors like the PSE - and they give off low level radiation so they can be detected without radar. So their use as combat troops are limited against the TGE forces.

The Qua-Trau will be a real thorn in the side of a planetary assault TGE force. They are hard hitting reptiles with enough SDC to withstand several blows. These guys will be tougher in the Phase World or in Rifts Earth than most basic Kreeghor.

The use of Sonic weapons are limited by their short range, their inability to harm MDC structures, their damage is halved through MDC body armor. So They are not the best weapon against TGE troops who use MDC armor (I know, they are not MDC in the AU, but originally they are MDC structures). Even the weakest phase gun outperform them (and the TGE elite troops will use better weapons, not only their basic rifle). Atorians plasma weapons are not better than their 3G equivalent (the damage delivered by their fearsome field cannon is the equivalent of the 3G's volcano rifle).

[sagajr]

Do not forget the fact, that the two empires and their troops placed and created for different systems. Without modification, they can not be compared to each other, because their environment, where they live and rule, are totally different in power levels. They are strong and powerful in their own playground and only there. Just because an SDC system do not use/know MDC that doesn't mean that an MDC structure/beeing will be much weaker in that environment, especially because the MDC system also use SDC structures/creatures so it is already described the differences (MDC is 100 times stronger than SDC). So I think that the artificially imposed "balance" between the SDC to MDC system described in the AU is totally wrong. Especially because there is no rules for the MDC to SDC conversion.

Sonic Weapons. I talk about MDC structures not MDC beeings. I know the sonic weapons can damage MDC beeings rifted to AU universe (which transform them into SDC beeings), but only at a lower level (yet these guns are totally worthless against MDC beeings in Rifts/PW settings). Also these weapons have very short ranges and their penalties do not apply against enemies in environmental armor. All TGE troops wear such armors. Even a basic helmet gives a +4 to save, so it can be saved easily with above average PE score.

Super powered Troops (Invincible Guardsman), magic troops (Silhouettes, witches, human spellcasters), "bionic/robotic" troops (Machine People, human/wolfen cyborgs) also exist within the TGE army. As well as the biowizard simbiotes/bio borgs/augmented troops. They also have access to advanced gear like phase tech fields/weapons/shields, personal force fields/shields, contra gravity packs, micro missile weapons, plasma cartridges, better explosives and many more (including magic weapons, tech and magic sensors, techno wizard devices). More than one half of the basic troops have supernatural PS (kreeghor, silhouettes) and about one quarter of the TGE troops have some level of psionics (most of them will be minor ones, the rest will be major or master - this comes from the standard psionic ability chances). I think all these things even the odds between the two forces.

About the sticky plasma weapons... The only one I found is the Atorian plasma field cannon and its description said, that the bolt stick to most surfaces (and burn for another 2D4 melees). So there is a chance that the TGE armor will be unaffected 8the bolt do not stick to it) by the long lasting burning damage. The other Atorian burning weapon is not a plasma gun, but a very short ranged incendiary gun and it is not a standard issue weapon (the standard issue infantry gun is an ion+shotgun combo as per Rifter 14 Atorian article). The sticky nature is the same (stay on most but not all surfaces). Other described plasma weapons do not have this sticky burning ability.

MDC notes are meaningless in a SDC environment.

I found nothing about this. Where can I find such rule? Unless said otherwise, all the protection granted by an MDC structure still apply even if the structure rifted to a lower power level setting.

The Average Atorian is a Eugenics Character or virtual Robot character.

I cannot found such thing in the article (Rifter 14, Atorian Empire Official Material). They are genetically engineered (to grow faster, be a quick learner, quickly adapt and each clan members look alike in the clan) its true but that is all. No eugenics, only a little initiative bonuses from a learned skill. The article says nothing about the average Atorian Eugenics character.

The guns and basic protective gears of the TGE troops are average in their own system, strong enough to deliver deadly damage and kill their enemy. 5d6 is not a bad damage rate for a basic gun, and it can be doubled. 40 single shots are good even if the damage is only 5d6 (however this is more than enough to bring down any standard SDC structure with a single shot.
Their little shorter range is not an issue because most of their troops are regenerating MDC beeings who can run down their foes. If you compare only the numbers (no SDC or MDC, just the numbers) to the Atorian tech, they look weak, ineffective and puny. But they come from a setting where SDC and MDC creatures/structures coexist and where the MDC is 100 times stronger than any SDC. Where even a Kreeghor child can kill a human adult with a punch (yet the human, without any augmentation or proper weapon, cannot kill the little beast) and where the basic guns do so much damage that they destroy/desintegrate any SDC matter with a single hit.

[Tor]

I apparently need to stop giving a @#*#@($% about the "Unlimited" books, because it sounds like a hoot to read.

This is what I'm beginning to think too. Any other "I only picked it up to read about the Riathenor because Predator and Symbiotes" bros out there?

A Rifts bias can lead us to think Phase World is the only space in town. We should not forget other sources like AU, or Mechanoids or TMNT Galaxy Guide for that matter.

[Alrik Vas]

MDC is 100x better than SDC. It's not a conversion, it's a megaversal truth.

[Alrik Vas]

Sir, i merely disagree with your conversions as they aren't definative. When people bring up the actual conversion rate of mdc to sdc, you state that it "won't be tolerated", which is pretty unreasonable. I'll excuse myself from the conversation if this is what it's going to be like.

Best of luck.

[Tor]

Stop trolling.

One should not communicate such unprovable suspicions no matter how intense they seem.

Sir, i merely disagree with your conversions as they aren't definative. When people bring up the actual conversion rate of mdc to sdc, you state that it "won't be tolerated", which is pretty unreasonable.

I'm pretty hazy on stated conversion ideas, let's pull AU:

page 5 right column "Rifts Mega-Damage Conversions" says there is a 1:1 ratio. 180SDC body armor has 180MDC, 3d6 damage pistol inflicts 3d6 MDC.

So we can have the Atorians ported to Phase World and battle the TGE there.

If you want some other ratio to override this, source?

[Alrik Vas]

So...they made a 2.1 million SDC ship and think it converts straight 1:1 into an MDC setting?

seems legit. /roll eyes

[Nightmask]

So...they made a 2.1 million SDC ship and think it converts straight 1:1 into an MDC setting?

seems legit. /roll eyes

I believe it actually says it cuts that by an eighth in transitioning from an SDC setting to an MDC setting (so still massively more powerful than native MDC vehicles and weapons).

[Alrik Vas]

Hrm...is damage reduced in the same way? having armor is nice, but if you can't kill your enemy it seems bad.

[Nightmask]

Hrm...is damage reduced in the same way? having armor is nice, but if you can't kill your enemy it seems bad.

My books are scattered around so I'll have to try and find it and make sure, I'm sure though that the damage doesn't remain just SDC (since the main cannons would barely deal any damage at all).

[AdmTolval]

SDC to MD and MD to SDC the damage would be the same except for Missiles. Rifts short-range, medium-range, and long-range missiles would do x10 more damage (i.e. Short-range plasma missile does 2D6x10 MD or 2D6x100 SDC in the HU universe and a Cruise missile's 4D6x100 MD would be 4D6x1000 MD). Also the blast radius would be increased by a factor of 3. (Conversion Book p. 32)

The MD equals SDC x2 looks to be from Skraypers p. 132 but it is unclear to me if this only refers to body armor but all armor as in the same paragraph it speaks of environmental body armor and vehicle armor. GM's call on this one.

Overall this looks to come down to tactics. The Atorians could keep any of their Eviscerator-class Battleships (the biggest ship used by the Atorians that I could find in the books) at extreme long-range for it's Ballistic Missiles (2000 miles range but only 1D6x100 SDC for Anti-Matter) but with a payload of 640 it could find it's self short of long-range weapons after the Kreeghor's interceptors and mini-missile batteries have shot down a number of the missiles. That leaves the Eviscerator(s) to come within 500 miles to use their Gravity Guns (1D6x1000 SDC) and well within the range of the Doombringer's Cruise Missiles (over a 1000 miles). Once these are gone, the Doombringer would have to leave the area since it's remaining weapons have a pitiful 120 mile range. But as it's a carrier, the commander should always keep it back and let it's Flying Fangs and escort ships fight.

All things considered, it would be interesting to watch.

[AdmTolval]

Atorian Gravity Guns. The Kreeghor has their "Horn Cannons", lasers, and GR weapons which do pitiful damage. But again, they would have to rely on their numerical superiority in fighters.

Personally, I don't play the rule of "non-MDC in a SDC world". Some may disagree with me but if SDC vehicles remain SDC in a MDC environment, why not MDC vehicles remain MDC in a SDC environment. So if I was the GM in this scenario, it would be very much a massacre for the Atorians.