What if the Coalition States fall?

[allmarduk]

An interesting scenario: what if anti-Prosek elements within the CS military asassinate Emperor Karl Prosek and his son and heir Joseph Prosek II and set up a new government? Almost instantly, pro-Prosek elements in the CS military rise up in open rebelion and the Coalition States (particularly the states of Chi-Town and Missouri) are divided in civil war. Very soon, the states of Lone Star, El Dorado, and Iron Heart vote to secede from the Coalition states, with Lone Star and El Dorado forming the New Republic of Texas and Iron Heart officially joining the former CS state of Free Quebec.

The Federation of Magic invades the state of Chi-Town, and pretty soon much of the remaining CS is conquered by the Federation, including the fortress city of Chi-Town itself. The pro-Prosek and anti-Prosek CS military elements quickly call for a truce and retreat to Missouri and Iowa (Iowa is part of the CS state of Chi-Town) and set up an emergency, military-dominated provisional government.

In that portion of CS territory conquered by the Federation of Magic, magic users, D-bees, Rogue Scholars, and other enemies of the CS gain greater freedoms.

[Shadow Wyrm]

The world would be a better place.

The Republicans would try and take control of the CS at this time.

[Vrykolas2k]

Wouldn't bother me... humanity would survive, especially with allies.
The CS is short-sighted in its views, and won't last.

[Vrykolas2k]

Wouldn't bother me... humanity would survive, especially with allies.
The CS is short-sighted in its views, and won't last.

See the leadership is the problem not its people. Many people ignore is that the current state of the CS came from the bloody war that accourd when the first federation of magic attacked them with out cause or reason, add onto that years of magic D-Bee and monster attacks Proseck and his lackeys were able to use the people already well founded fears to corrupt things to create a power hold over them. The CS as it stands has an evil leadership but the people and the CS it's self are a place for humanity if one could take out leadership with out destroying its infastructor one could start educatin the people and maybe help over come the battered breed by almost 100 years of people being killed by aviv users and monsters.

Actually, they FoM had cause and reason. The CS was dictating to another soveraign nation how to conduct its affairs.

[BlueLion]

The economy of NA would crash. According to CS campaign most of the food in north America area of play comes from the CS bread basket states so other large cites would fall.

Not Shure where you get that Vrykolas2k; as I under stand cannon it was the FoM attack that turned the CS into control monger super Nazis. I have not read any where that said the CS was any way responsible for the attack on them. It was a attempt by the FoM to use force to gain territory and they used some pretty dark stuff to do it, causing many of them to pull out just before the purge whipped most them out.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

They asked them to not trade or conduct business with in their territory

Ok now that I am bak at home I can use my books, along with that the CS had asked the FoM to limit other things to put their minds at ease. The CS also offered to trade openly with them. Dunscun was unable to accept their request not because of them wanting to hate magic and non humans but because they did not want to make him and his great city a part of their coalition. The early CS could have contributed to the magic world had Dunscun not desired to attack them with out cause or reason. Te CS at that time did not hunt down or kill magic users and D-Bees. I wonder sometimes how things would have turned out if Dunscun had taken a more political route over residing to kill them.

When you sayCS ninjabunny, it's was just chi-town at that time, the CS come later silly rabbit.

[Nightmask]

currently the only thing holding back a very large number of even worse villains than the CS is in fact the CS, Atlantis and the splugorth have not invaded because of the CS, (not because they cant win but because they see no reason to take the kind of damage they would if they did for the minimal reward it would offer right now) next you have the bug boys of the north who recognize the CS as an authority to be reckoned with (they aren't quite ready to take the CS on and they know it) to the south is the hoards of vampires and their intelligences (again it is currently a case of risk assessment that prevent them from coming in mass) each of these three groups are slowly pushing into the region but the loss of the CS as a power group would destroy NA and almost guarantee the obliteration of NA humanity. all of this info is in various source books.

That's highly exaggerated to say the least. Atlantis doesn't invade because its ruler just isn't interested in trying to conquer North America, he's happy with his slice of the pie and amusing himself watching the various power struggles and taking bets on them.

The insect race meanwhile doesn't even have human-like thought processes and they aren't going to be thinking about how 'tough' the CS is (or even be capable of recognizing CS troops relative to non-CS troops) and expand much like insects do (right down to having much of their society underground in huge tunnel networks).

The Vampires of South America meanwhile have to deal with dedicated troops from elsewhere in South America and things like the Pecos Empire which is one of the large things buffering between it and the CS. The CS is doing NOTHING to contain or ward off the vampires kingdoms, they don't even know that there ARE vampire kingdoms because it's so far away it's not worth their time.

So no, the collapse of the CS and its empire is not going to even remotely guarantee or bring about the obliteration of humanity in North America. If anything removing it as a yet another threat to survival in North America would let everyone else focus on the problems that because of the CS they aren't able to. Tolkeen for example was a powerful force for controlling actual threats in its area but the CS removed it as a protective influence in the area leaving one less group to fight against the actual threats (rather than the ones that the CS simply paint as threats to have scapegoats for their genocidal policies) and worse it unleashed hordes of vengeful people into the area who'll focus on hindering the CS instead of hindering people like Atlantis.

Frankly it's appalling how much the CS has done to prevent actual elimination of the actual threats to humanity and good beings in general in North America due to its genocidal policies and being one of those threats to humanity in the area instead.

[Furoan]

Leaving aside the political realities if the Coalition fell (I personally loathe the attitude and leadership but they ARE a huge power block), I'm going to raise another point.

What the hell is up with the Coalition States walls? Those Walls of its fortress city must be the most powerful thing to ever exist. There was a book (I think it might have been one of the Dragons and Gods or Pantheons ones) that basically said that the walls were immune to the powers of various gods (fair enough, magic only seems to scale so far but still....

Ahem.

That said, what would happen if the Coalition either fell or turned to infighting? IN short, LOTS of people trying to take a slice of the pie. The Coalitions main thing it has going for it is that it has both a mobile army, LOTS of troops, and lots of resources. A fall or split in the Coalition leadership could be huge. Personally I don't see it as a 'human life ending' on the NA continent but at the same time its not going to be rainbows and happiness. As mentioned a lot of food and weapons are Coalition made and say what you will about their policies concerning psychics, Mages and D-bee's, they do fight a LOT of maruing monsters and take out people who are in 'their territory'.

So, if the Coalition fell? Suddenly lots more monsters, with every wanna-be monster lord/warlord/mage trying to carve out his kingdom or feeling free to push their weight around without fear of drawing Coalition attention. Millions of people in the Burbs/Fortress cities suddenly no longer safe. If (somehow) the walls of the cities is breached expect thousands to go either flooding in or flooding out of hte city, and probably a lot of slaughter, theft, anarchy. (Whether the slaughter is Coalition troops killing people running inside or the people running inside killing the helpless citizens I don't know).

For all its being a wart on the side of Humanity, the fall of so powerful a human kingdom is going to be disheartening to those who hear about it, but it almost might galvanize a influx of opeople coming to 'help' or exploit the situation.

[taalismn]

The CS is the sacred military and economic monster at the heart of North America...take it away, introduce uncertainty into it, and the unified power block it represents, North America becomes even more balkanized and dangerous. Well-intentioned allies like Lazlo, Arzno, Tundra Rangers, and Cyberknightsand the Lyn-Syrial just don't have the numbers, unified infrastructure, and logistics in place to take over the peacekeeping and transport needed to pacify and feed the affected regions. .
This isn't like the fall of Nazi Germany where you had big robust victors ready to swoop in and keep the civilians afloat with a Marshal Plan, this is more like the chaos you could expect if Russia COMPLETELY fragmented...and that's not counting out Chinese invasion.

[Tor]

The common man's quality of life would go down as they were made slaves by the aliens and mages. The CS protects the poor 'squishy' mundane humans of the world from tyranny.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Even without the proseks in charge I doubt the coalition states would fall the remaining leadership would gather up the traitors kill them, linked them to pro tolkeen forces, the high command council would still remains as well as regional military and civilian leadership.

So some mass falling into choas may not happen, people running on the cities will be meet with the same response as before being shot. But the coalition would be change and depending on how the high command handle it may be a smaller coalition or one that free Quebec might join, or one were mortal d-bees are allowed join as second class citizens.

[rat_bastard]

My guess is there would be a skirmish between Republicans, Free Quebeqis, Triax and the black market to gut the CS scientific and mechanical treasures. Hitting Lone Star would be the real prize but any CS factory would be vital. I'm also concerned about the vast amount of illiterate and ignorant lower class CS residents who have been kept ignorant and dependant on the CS nanny state who have no practical skills for dealing with the realities of rifts earth.

[Sureshot]

They asked them to not trade or conduct business with in their territory

If you read the FOM they essentially asked people using magic to somehow stop being magic users. One does not show up to a meeting of equals with a laundry list of what not to do. I think it was a list of 100-1250 things the FOM could not do. That's not treating another nation as equals. Then not expect the FOM to not get angry. Both sides imo screwed up yet the CS is far from blameless. As to what happens a power vaccumm with another good faction like Lazlo maybe taking the place of the CS. Not sure it will happen though because according to canon the good factions are portrayed as stupidly not trusting each other despite their alignments.

[Hystrix]

Going back to the OP, I have often contended that if the CS falls it will be internal, not external.

There is a very strong possibility what you said could/might happen. Interesting.

[kaid]

currently the only thing holding back a very large number of even worse villains than the CS is in fact the CS, Atlantis and the splugorth have not invaded because of the CS, (not because they cant win but because they see no reason to take the kind of damage they would if they did for the minimal reward it would offer right now) next you have the bug boys of the north who recognize the CS as an authority to be reckoned with (they aren't quite ready to take the CS on and they know it) to the south is the hoards of vampires and their intelligences (again it is currently a case of risk assessment that prevent them from coming in mass) each of these three groups are slowly pushing into the region but the loss of the CS as a power group would destroy NA and almost guarantee the obliteration of NA humanity. all of this info is in various source books.

That's highly exaggerated to say the least. Atlantis doesn't invade because its ruler just isn't interested in trying to conquer North America, he's happy with his slice of the pie and amusing himself watching the various power struggles and taking bets on them.

The insect race meanwhile doesn't even have human-like thought processes and they aren't going to be thinking about how 'tough' the CS is (or even be capable of recognizing CS troops relative to non-CS troops) and expand much like insects do (right down to having much of their society underground in huge tunnel networks).

The Vampires of South America meanwhile have to deal with dedicated troops from elsewhere in South America and things like the Pecos Empire which is one of the large things buffering between it and the CS. The CS is doing NOTHING to contain or ward off the vampires kingdoms, they don't even know that there ARE vampire kingdoms because it's so far away it's not worth their time.

So no, the collapse of the CS and its empire is not going to even remotely guarantee or bring about the obliteration of humanity in North America. If anything removing it as a yet another threat to survival in North America would let everyone else focus on the problems that because of the CS they aren't able to. Tolkeen for example was a powerful force for controlling actual threats in its area but the CS removed it as a protective influence in the area leaving one less group to fight against the actual threats (rather than the ones that the CS simply paint as threats to have scapegoats for their genocidal policies) and worse it unleashed hordes of vengeful people into the area who'll focus on hindering the CS instead of hindering people like Atlantis.

Frankly it's appalling how much the CS has done to prevent actual elimination of the actual threats to humanity and good beings in general in North America due to its genocidal policies and being one of those threats to humanity in the area instead.

Aftermath points to the xitixics perceiving the coalition as a very powerful "hive" and treats it as they would another hostile xiticix hive. It treated tolkeen in the same fashion and when tolkeen fell the xitixix are now starting to expand that direction.


I think if anything seriously threatened the CS you would get the NG and probably even the black market forces pitching in to help out because if the CS falls most of the smaller players would get destroyed very shortly thereafter.

[taalismn]

Without a central organization dictating terms(if only to say 'don't waste your government-issue ammo on those scum'), all the genuinely psycho people in the CS military go on a rampage, plus the just plain scared and impressionable ones who have been raised on agitprop all their lives or the stories of human refugees see the disorder as another d-bee plot and add fuel to the firestorms. Not good for d-bees, nossiree.

[Sureshot]

You missed my second post after that one amigo. As I read FoM it was morneof them asking them to take steps to ease their worried minds. They put out request like nations do today but the Great Dunscon did not really try to work out negotiations but when I say they were attack with out cause or reason I mean they did not take aggressive action against the first FoM.

Well imo neither side helped the situation. Putting minds at ease does not involve showing up with a laundry list of what not to do a mile long. In my book that's not a meeting of equals. If the CS demands had imo been more reasonable the Dunscon imo would have not gone off the deep end. While Dunscon was not interested unless he could do things his way. The CS at the time did not even try to understand magic. They wanted the FOM and by extension magic to suddenly stop existing.

[Nekira Sudacne]

well lets see.

There would be mass famine and starvation since the entire north american economy revolves around the coalition states, in addition to it being the largest producer of food and finished goods on the contienent.

Civil war would break out, invasion by hostile powers, then more war.

It would basically be a mini dark age as civilization on north america regresses a full century.

[Nightmask]

You missed my second post after that one amigo. As I read FoM it was morneof them asking them to take steps to ease their worried minds. They put out request like nations do today but the Great Dunscon did not really try to work out negotiations but when I say they were attack with out cause or reason I mean they did not take aggressive action against the first FoM.

Well imo neither side helped the situation. Putting minds at ease does not involve showing up with a laundry list of what not to do a mile long. In my book that's not a meeting of equals. If the CS demands had imo been more reasonable the Dunscon imo would have not gone off the deep end. While Dunscon was not interested unless he could do things his way. The CS at the time did not even try to understand magic. They wanted the FOM and by extension magic to suddenly stop existing.

The same kind of thinking/behavior led to Quebec leaving the CS, they weren't going to keep putting up with the demands treating them as subservient instead of allies.

[Nightmask]

well lets see.

There would be mass famine and starvation since the entire north american economy revolves around the coalition states, in addition to it being the largest producer of food and finished goods on the contienent.

Civil war would break out, invasion by hostile powers, then more war.

It would basically be a mini dark age as civilization on north america regresses a full century.

One would think the entire North American Economy revolves around the Black Market since it's considered to exist as a united organization covering the entire continent. People would also continue to grow, produce, and sell food even with the collapse of the CS as a united organization. While prices on many things would go up you wouldn't see a mini-dark age or regression particularly by a full century. There are still many independent or semi-independent organizations producing technology nor would the factories that create CS-specific gear stop producing it (if anything the individual states in control over it would ramp up production for sale or use).

[Balabanto]

Perhaps there are personal reasons between the characters you're not considering.

That's all I'm going to say. I have my own theory about why, forget the demands. Just read Federation of Magic again, VERY carefully.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Cliff notes
Chi-town defense force has mages, which would become the Vanguard.
The great dunscon after getting his last request, blow up like a palladium freelancer, and storm out of the meeting, and this chi-town was going to let it lay, but dunscon didn't and attacked them.

[flatline]

If the current management of the CS lost control (or was destroyed) and the CS dissolved into a bunch of independent city-states, why would that cause mass starvation across North America?

Wouldn't the farms continue to exist and still be protected by whatever city-state protects them now?

--flatline

[Furoan]

I think the implication would be 'With the Coalition that has ticked of a GREAT MANY PEOPLE' being weakened and infighting, everybdoy and their mother would them or there would be attacks against the farms by one faction or another.

[Nekira Sudacne]

well lets see.

There would be mass famine and starvation since the entire north american economy revolves around the coalition states, in addition to it being the largest producer of food and finished goods on the contienent.

Civil war would break out, invasion by hostile powers, then more war.

It would basically be a mini dark age as civilization on north america regresses a full century.

One would think the entire North American Economy revolves around the Black Market since it's considered to exist as a united organization covering the entire continent. People would also continue to grow, produce, and sell food even with the collapse of the CS as a united organizations, the largest and most powerful and productive of which is also based in the CS, so the CS falling guts the black market's fragile alliance as well. While prices on many things would go up you wouldn't see a mini-dark age or regression particularly by a full century. There are still many independent or semi-independent organizations producing technology nor would the factories that create CS-specific gear stop producing it (if anything the individual states in control over it would ramp up production for sale or use).

Yes, that's why people would survive at all. Do remember that the largest bulk of said black market is in fact produced within the CS itself, however. and that the black market actually isn't a single united group but a loose alliance of several organization. the thing about economic collapse isn't that all the factories are destroyed, it's a chain reaction that leads to widespread destruction. the CS is the single largest exporter of finished goods in north america by far, take them out, and a lot of those other manufacturing places shut down due to shockwaves. sure, you'll have some places that keep going. again, that's why it's a mini-dark age and not complete devistation.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If the current management of the CS lost control (or was destroyed) and the CS dissolved into a bunch of independent city-states, why would that cause mass starvation across North America?

Wouldn't the farms continue to exist and still be protected by whatever city-state protects them now?

--flatline

because they would be too busy in civil war to protect the famers properly.

[flatline]

If the current management of the CS lost control (or was destroyed) and the CS dissolved into a bunch of independent city-states, why would that cause mass starvation across North America?

Wouldn't the farms continue to exist and still be protected by whatever city-state protects them now?

--flatline

because they would be too busy in civil war to protect the famers properly.

If they're independent city-states, then it's not a "civil war". If the control exerted by Chi-Town disappeared, I don't understand why Lonestar and the other states would suddenly be at war with each other.

If that was a supposition made in the original post, I disagree with it (but I'm too lazy to go look, apparently).

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

If the current management of the CS lost control (or was destroyed) and the CS dissolved into a bunch of independent city-states, why would that cause mass starvation across North America?

Wouldn't the farms continue to exist and still be protected by whatever city-state protects them now?

--flatline

because they would be too busy in civil war to protect the famers properly.

If they're independent city-states, then it's not a "civil war". If the control exerted by Chi-Town disappeared, I don't understand why Lonestar and the other states would suddenly be at war with each other.

If that was a supposition made in the original post, I disagree with it (but I'm too lazy to go look, apparently).

--flatline

It was part of the origional posters premise? a fraction of the military assassintes the proseks and installs a puppet regime and a civil war breaks out.

[H.P. Hovercraft]

In that sort of power vacuum, humanity's only hope for salvation and survival can only come from a true titan of industry, the mighty Chipwell Armaments!!!!
.....................................................................................................................we're doomed.

[Blue_Lion]

BY cannon if The CS falls north america is screwed. CS is the source of stabilty for the credit system, so every one is using the CS banking system. CS food sales is the source of food for most of NA. CS is keeping a devil gate in check.

So even thou I am not a Huge CS fan, the CS is writen as such a criticle aspect of rifts north america that if it falls most other nations in north america would fall shortly after words.

[flatline]

BY cannon if The CS falls north america is screwed. CS is the source of stabilty for the credit system, so every one is using the CS banking system. CS food sales is the source of food for most of NA. CS is keeping a devil gate in check.

So even thou I am not a Huge CS fan, the CS is writen as such a criticle aspect of rifts north america that if it falls most other nations in north america would fall shortly after words.

If the CS crumbled, it's not like the farmland would suddenly go away. Someone else could provide a "universal" credit if there was really a need, but most kingdoms would benefit from creating their own credit system (actually, I think most already have their own form of money already).

It also seems to me that most of the non-CS military forces in NA exist to keep the CS in check, so if the CS went away, those forces could, for example, police Devil's Gate (or whatever).

--flatline

[The Beast]

It depends on how the CS falls. If it's done by the FoM, a Tolkeen Retribution squad, or some other mage/supernatural/D-Bee group it'll just end up re-enforcing their beliefs, though FQ might rejoin if the Proseks are out of the picture.

If done as part of a military coup, it'll at least cause a split between those loyal to the CS and those involved in the coup. Possibly split it 3-ways because Bradford may stick around to avenge Karl, but would likely split if anyone tried to reign him in. Also in this scenario you'd see Archie, the Xiticix, the FoM, and Atlantis increasing their power-base as the other CS cites fought for control.

[Rimmerdal]

It depends on how the CS falls. If it's done by the FoM, a Tolkeen Retribution squad, or some other mage/supernatural/D-Bee group it'll just end up re-enforcing their beliefs, though FQ might rejoin if the Proseks are out of the picture.

If done as part of a military coup, it'll at least cause a split between those loyal to the CS and those involved in the coup. Possibly split it 3-ways because Bradford may stick around to avenge Karl, but would likely split if anyone tried to reign him in. Also in this scenario you'd see Archie, the Xiticix, the FoM, and Atlantis increasing their power-base as the other CS cites fought for control.

Also see the surviving CS Government going underground and some of the stuff in the balck Vault may start getting used. vanguard may be a possibility they need to survive.

Have to agree on Des leading or taking over lonestar if he isn't in charge and trying to get Pis-bat on his side as well the general assigned to him. The republicans would be prompted to move..but if Elliot stays true to his nature he will have some sort of complex plot to draw out archie and eliminate him as his real forces move on to more vital targets..like lonestar as those alike tend to compete. now Elliot and Des going to war would be a fight to watch.

[Jerell]

I think, short term, the fall of the CS would be very bad news for humanity in the Midwest. If they lost either their ability to transport food relatively safely long distances or lost some major agricultural areas, I believe there would be mass starvation for a few years. FoM would grab some land I'm sure, at that point I'd hope Quebec and Northern Gun could hold in NA out for humanities sake. Otherwise best head for the New Navy or the Lemurians.

Long term it might be okay, but humankind would suffer in short term, especially in the Mid west for a few years at least, maybe a decade or two. Unless there's some heroes that step up and take control somehow to sort things out. Maybe Quebec launches the next Marshal Plan, this time for the US? I'd love to see the coalition re-emerge as true good guys, and not just the lesser of all the other evils.

Also just a note on Splynncryth, he thinks he can take earth, he doesn't because he doesn't think he can hold it, or that it would be way to costly to hold onto.

BTW when is the new Quebec book coming out? 2015?

[Blue_Lion]

BY cannon if The CS falls north america is screwed. CS is the source of stabilty for the credit system, so every one is using the CS banking system. CS food sales is the source of food for most of NA. CS is keeping a devil gate in check.

So even thou I am not a Huge CS fan, the CS is writen as such a criticle aspect of rifts north america that if it falls most other nations in north america would fall shortly after words.

If the CS crumbled, it's not like the farmland would suddenly go away. Someone else could provide a "universal" credit if there was really a need, but most kingdoms would benefit from creating their own credit system (actually, I think most already have their own form of money already).

It also seems to me that most of the non-CS military forces in NA exist to keep the CS in check, so if the CS went away, those forces could, for example, police Devil's Gate (or whatever).

--flatline

It is not as simple as some one just picking it up.

The reason the universal credit works is it is backed by what most people in north america see as a untopable stable econimic force. If the CS fell how do you know any other major kingdom that tried to back the universal credit would not also fall.

The farm lands would still be there but there is no central comand for the guard post that dot it, no offical goverment transports to pick up the crop. Add to that the loss of stable curnacy getting the food from the farmers may well result in fighting in the farm land. Giving the flamable nature of the product and the large use of weapons that use a form of heat for damage (both lasers and plasma with lasers beeing the most common.) fires are likly to break out burning much of the food. In addition any one else that can get the resources to buy it would have to tranport it, and as there will be many small warlords preying on such transports (as well as goverment spancered piracy) wars over food will flair up so more peacefull stable nations will suffer famine making them desperate enofe to resort to piracy to get the food for their people. Add in the swell of monsters threw the devel rift that is no longer under CS lock down that will also attack said food shipments and raid poorly defended farm towns for food and slaves. The entire food distrubtion network would crash, many farmers will be killed in raids, and much of the farm lands would be grabed by would be dictators. So any nation that wanted to rebuild the food network will need to launch a full scale miltary operation in the middle of a famine and compeat with every other nation doing so.

The closet nation to the devil gate is FoM and Lord D will most likely not try to contain the threat instead he will try to use it to his advantage. It is not any one nation that can match the CS and keep them in check it is the combied threat of all around them that keep it in check and the fighting to restore the balance would mean for the short term and likly a long term a verry bad day for NA.

[Nightmask]

BY cannon if The CS falls north america is screwed. CS is the source of stabilty for the credit system, so every one is using the CS banking system. CS food sales is the source of food for most of NA. CS is keeping a devil gate in check.

So even thou I am not a Huge CS fan, the CS is writen as such a criticle aspect of rifts north america that if it falls most other nations in north america would fall shortly after words.

If the CS crumbled, it's not like the farmland would suddenly go away. Someone else could provide a "universal" credit if there was really a need, but most kingdoms would benefit from creating their own credit system (actually, I think most already have their own form of money already).

It also seems to me that most of the non-CS military forces in NA exist to keep the CS in check, so if the CS went away, those forces could, for example, police Devil's Gate (or whatever).

--flatline

It is not as simple as some one just picking it up.

The reason the universal credit works is it is backed by what most people in north america see as a untopable stable econimic force. If the CS fell how do you know any other major kingdom that tried to back the universal credit would not also fall.

The farm lands would still be there but there is no central comand for the guard post that dot it, no offical goverment transports to pick up the crop. Add to that the loss of stable curnacy getting the food from the farmers may well result in fighting in the farm land. Giving the flamable nature of the product and the large use of weapons that use a form of heat for damage (both lasers and plasma with lasers beeing the most common.) fires are likly to break out burning much of the food. In addition any one else that can get the resources to buy it would have to tranport it, and as there will be many small warlords preying on such transports (as well as goverment spancered piracy) wars over food will flair up so more peacefull stable nations will suffer famine making them desperate enofe to resort to piracy to get the food for their people. Add in the swell of monsters threw the devel rift that is no longer under CS lock down that will also attack said food shipments and raid poorly defended farm towns for food and slaves. The entire food distrubtion network would crash, many farmers will be killed in raids, and much of the farm lands would be grabed by would be dictators. So any nation that wanted to rebuild the food network will need to launch a full scale miltary operation in the middle of a famine and compeat with every other nation doing so.

The closet nation to the devil gate is FoM and Lord D will most likely not try to contain the threat instead he will try to use it to his advantage. It is not any one nation that can match the CS and keep them in check it is the combied threat of all around them that keep it in check and the fighting to restore the balance would mean for the short term and likly a long term a verry bad day for NA.

Way too unlikely on the scenarios there.

Even if the CS collapsed you'd still have troops running around with weapons doing if nothing else trying to set up their own little secure areas and many would still keep protecting things like farmland since being humans they actually need food so they're going to actually put the effort into protecting what keeps them alive. The cropland isn't going to just spontaneously combust and all these battles just happening to occur in farmland is highly unlikely, especially where it would wipe out so much of it.

The Devil's Gate isn't likely to be spawning unstoppable hordes either, just because the CS wouldn't have as active a presence there odds are someone will look to keep an eye on it and contain what comes out. If there were hordes coming through at those levels the CS wouldn't be holding them back either, if they were coming through at manageable levels for the CS then others around could manage it as well.

[Blue_Lion]

BY cannon if The CS falls north america is screwed. CS is the source of stabilty for the credit system, so every one is using the CS banking system. CS food sales is the source of food for most of NA. CS is keeping a devil gate in check.

So even thou I am not a Huge CS fan, the CS is writen as such a criticle aspect of rifts north america that if it falls most other nations in north america would fall shortly after words.

If the CS crumbled, it's not like the farmland would suddenly go away. Someone else could provide a "universal" credit if there was really a need, but most kingdoms would benefit from creating their own credit system (actually, I think most already have their own form of money already).

It also seems to me that most of the non-CS military forces in NA exist to keep the CS in check, so if the CS went away, those forces could, for example, police Devil's Gate (or whatever).

--flatline

It is not as simple as some one just picking it up.

The reason the universal credit works is it is backed by what most people in north america see as a untopable stable econimic force. If the CS fell how do you know any other major kingdom that tried to back the universal credit would not also fall.

The farm lands would still be there but there is no central comand for the guard post that dot it, no offical goverment transports to pick up the crop. Add to that the loss of stable curnacy getting the food from the farmers may well result in fighting in the farm land. Giving the flamable nature of the product and the large use of weapons that use a form of heat for damage (both lasers and plasma with lasers beeing the most common.) fires are likly to break out burning much of the food. In addition any one else that can get the resources to buy it would have to tranport it, and as there will be many small warlords preying on such transports (as well as goverment spancered piracy) wars over food will flair up so more peacefull stable nations will suffer famine making them desperate enofe to resort to piracy to get the food for their people. Add in the swell of monsters threw the devel rift that is no longer under CS lock down that will also attack said food shipments and raid poorly defended farm towns for food and slaves. The entire food distrubtion network would crash, many farmers will be killed in raids, and much of the farm lands would be grabed by would be dictators. So any nation that wanted to rebuild the food network will need to launch a full scale miltary operation in the middle of a famine and compeat with every other nation doing so.

The closet nation to the devil gate is FoM and Lord D will most likely not try to contain the threat instead he will try to use it to his advantage. It is not any one nation that can match the CS and keep them in check it is the combied threat of all around them that keep it in check and the fighting to restore the balance would mean for the short term and likly a long term a verry bad day for NA.

Way too unlikely on the scenarios there.

Even if the CS collapsed you'd still have troops running around with weapons doing if nothing else trying to set up their own little secure areas and many would still keep protecting things like farmland since being humans they actually need food so they're going to actually put the effort into protecting what keeps them alive. The cropland isn't going to just spontaneously combust and all these battles just happening to occur in farmland is highly unlikely, especially where it would wipe out so much of it.

The Devil's Gate isn't likely to be spawning unstoppable hordes either, just because the CS wouldn't have as active a presence there odds are someone will look to keep an eye on it and contain what comes out. If there were hordes coming through at those levels the CS wouldn't be holding them back either, if they were coming through at manageable levels for the CS then others around could manage it as well.

The isolated bunkers would try to hold out and defend it some would try to set up their own little territories. The fighting happens when people either A precive them as beeing week and easy to take over without beeing able to summon reinforments. If not then when the econimcs crash happens along with no mass food shipments people start tring to use force to get food. With no CS resupply many of the bunkers would only hold out for a few attacks at best. New would be warlords would sweep in. The loss of high command and resuply would make many of the bunkers much easer targets and every gready eviel thing out their knows it. Now some new kingdoms might pop up in the farm lands and last but a vast majorty of NA just lost access to the food that is grown there.

Greedy people and those paniced by fear of famine are not going to be thinking resonably, they are going to try to grab as much as they can before any one else does and once the darker forces move even the light will have to enter the farm lands.

Just going in and setting up shop around the deviel gate has a major problem the next closest power to is is the FoM do you think that Lord D will take kindly to you setting up shop next to his turf and cutting off a potential sorce of new monsters to recruit from? The CS keeps a major force there to blast anything that comes threw, well over a divsion of armored troops, who has that much to spare to send to a remote spot next to a posibaly hostile force.

[Blue_Lion]

Except that there is an even more powerful nation than Chi-Town (which is what we're really talking about when we talk about the CS) to back the universal credit: the New German Republic. Who is already looking to merge global currencies, as had been done before the Great Cataclysm. It is fairly well known in North America that the NGR (more specifically Triax) is even more technologically advanced than the CS and they already have trade relations with Free Quebec. If the two of them agreed to a currency union then odds are good that Northern Gun, Iron Heart and others would fall into line to accept it if only because they would have no choice.

The areas that would suffer the most would be the ones directly controlled by Chi-Town now. Eldorado has not been a CS member for very long, and would probably be able to hold together if the CS were gone. Lone Star is not really under CS control anyway, they only claim it in name while their forces mostly hold the underground complex.

Since the CS does not formally recognize Lazlo as anything other than an enemy, Lazlo's economy is not held up by the CS's good graces. That goes triple for the Magic Zone city states. The Federation of Magic does nothing about the Devil's Gate because Alastair Dunscon finds the CS's attempts to contain it endlessly amusing. But one has to wonder if Dunscon has ever realized that all he would need to do is drop a series of pyramids onto the ley lines feeding the Gate and the Indian Mound and he could turn the whole system on and off at will? There have to be bribe-receptive Stone Masters out there who would do it for the right price.

The Colorado Baronies already have a detached economy, since they are not directly connected to CS territory and are magic-using city-states.

The biggest issue is that there would be a series of wars while several major players would try to snatch and grab territory, settle old scores and otherwise scramble to fill the power vacuum. But just like Europe eventually recovered from the fragmentation of the Roman Empire, North America would survive the fall of the CS. There are already multiple stable independent powers like Free Quebec, Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies. Lazlo in particular might become more activist if they no longer had to worry about war with the CS. The only reason they haven't set themselves up as the magic police of North America is because they want to keep a low profile in order to avoid conflict with the CS. That would change if the CS fell apart. Free Quebec already rather politely shows their psychics and magic users to the border, where it is expected they will probably end up heading off the Lazlo. If Lazlo clearly respected their territorial integrity then they would likely leave it alone and focus their attentions towards the East Coast.

Thus probable belligerents are the Federation of Magic and Iron Heart, contesting for Chi-Town's territory. Eldorado might make a grab for Lone Star as well.

The biggest problem with the CS is its leadership, not its existence. If it could dial the fascism back to even NGR levels then it would be a marvelous place. That is why it is such a giant tragedy.

Accept that the NGR just lost a major trade partner with the CS, so they just took a finacal hit. Add to the fact that people confidence in a large stable govement was striped away, they may not be willing to trust some remote nation across the ocean. Pluss you have the problem of processing all the electronic tansactions threw the NGR the data network just is not set up.

[FrankSerpico]

Where are people getting this "the CS is the breadbasket of the whole continent" stuff? Last I checked plenty of American kingdoms/states like Lazlo, the Indian tribes, the Baronies in CO, every faction of the FoM etc. had no trading relationship with the CS at all and were still capable of feeding their populations. The New West book even mentions that people out there have dinosaur ranches for Christ's sake.

[Rimmerdal]

Where are people getting this "the CS is the breadbasket of the whole continent" stuff? Last I checked plenty of American kingdoms/states like Lazlo, the Indian tribes, the Baronies in CO, every faction of the FoM etc. had no trading relationship with the CS at all and were still capable of feeding their populations. The New West book even mentions that people out there have dinosaur ranches for Christ's sake.

I think the CS is the biggest exporter to others. Like you say most can feed themsevles but not much else. That they all loot the CS for there food on occasion.

Does make me wonder..if the CS did lose there farms to enemies of the CS...

[FrankSerpico]

Aside from Manistique and Northern Gun, Free Quebec and Los Alamo, which American kingdoms does the CS even trade with? They weren't doing business with Tolkeen, they aren't trading with any of the people I mentioned in my previous post, and it really doesn't seem like seeking out new trade partners is on their agenda, aside maybe from the NGR.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Aside from Manistique and Northern Gun, Free Quebec and Los Alamo, which American kingdoms does the CS even trade with? They weren't doing business with Tolkeen, they aren't trading with any of the people I mentioned in my previous post, and it really doesn't seem like seeking out new trade partners is on their agenda, aside maybe from the NGR.

The black market might have there hands in the farms, which opens a lot of choices including tolkeen at one time, that and add in black market members trading with each other, so that missing shipment of grain and cattle might be sitting in a warehouse out in Vegas, just waiting on the buyers to show up. You are looking at it as the CS is trading to everybody, when it's a corrupt CS official trading with the chi-town black market who is trading with another black market outfit who is trading with someone else.

[flatline]

Aside from Manistique and Northern Gun, Free Quebec and Los Alamo, which American kingdoms does the CS even trade with? They weren't doing business with Tolkeen, they aren't trading with any of the people I mentioned in my previous post, and it really doesn't seem like seeking out new trade partners is on their agenda, aside maybe from the NGR.

The black market might have there hands in the farms, which opens a lot of choices including tolkeen at one time, that and add in black market members trading with each other, so that missing shipment of grain and cattle might be sitting in a warehouse out in Vegas, just waiting on the buyers to show up. You are looking at it as the CS is trading to everybody, when it's a corrupt CS official trading with the chi-town black market who is trading with another black market outfit who is trading with someone else.

Every time it changes hands it becomes more expensive to the end consumer and, therefore, less competitive with food that changes hands fewer times before reaching the consumer. It's certainly not impossible that food produced by the CS makes it into every NA market, but the more convoluted the route from producer to consumer becomes, the less likely that producer is a critical source to that consumer.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Aside from Manistique and Northern Gun, Free Quebec and Los Alamo, which American kingdoms does the CS even trade with? They weren't doing business with Tolkeen, they aren't trading with any of the people I mentioned in my previous post, and it really doesn't seem like seeking out new trade partners is on their agenda, aside maybe from the NGR.

The black market might have there hands in the farms, which opens a lot of choices including tolkeen at one time, that and add in black market members trading with each other, so that missing shipment of grain and cattle might be sitting in a warehouse out in Vegas, just waiting on the buyers to show up. You are looking at it as the CS is trading to everybody, when it's a corrupt CS official trading with the chi-town black market who is trading with another black market outfit who is trading with someone else.

Every time it changes hands it becomes more expensive to the end consumer and, therefore, less competitive with food that changes hands fewer times before reaching the consumer. It's certainly not impossible that food produced by the CS makes it into every NA market, but the more convoluted the route from producer to consumer becomes, the less likely that producer is a critical source to that consumer.

--flatline

high price food is still better then starving to death with no food.

[Rimmerdal]

Aside from Manistique and Northern Gun, Free Quebec and Los Alamo, which American kingdoms does the CS even trade with? They weren't doing business with Tolkeen, they aren't trading with any of the people I mentioned in my previous post, and it really doesn't seem like seeking out new trade partners is on their agenda, aside maybe from the NGR.

The black market might have there hands in the farms, which opens a lot of choices including tolkeen at one time, that and add in black market members trading with each other, so that missing shipment of grain and cattle might be sitting in a warehouse out in Vegas, just waiting on the buyers to show up. You are looking at it as the CS is trading to everybody, when it's a corrupt CS official trading with the chi-town black market who is trading with another black market outfit who is trading with someone else.

Every time it changes hands it becomes more expensive to the end consumer and, therefore, less competitive with food that changes hands fewer times before reaching the consumer. It's certainly not impossible that food produced by the CS makes it into every NA market, but the more convoluted the route from producer to consumer becomes, the less likely that producer is a critical source to that consumer.

--flatline

high price food is still better then starving to death with no food.

Agreed, and the sales of seeds for growing would be a big market.

[flatline]

Aside from Manistique and Northern Gun, Free Quebec and Los Alamo, which American kingdoms does the CS even trade with? They weren't doing business with Tolkeen, they aren't trading with any of the people I mentioned in my previous post, and it really doesn't seem like seeking out new trade partners is on their agenda, aside maybe from the NGR.

The black market might have there hands in the farms, which opens a lot of choices including tolkeen at one time, that and add in black market members trading with each other, so that missing shipment of grain and cattle might be sitting in a warehouse out in Vegas, just waiting on the buyers to show up. You are looking at it as the CS is trading to everybody, when it's a corrupt CS official trading with the chi-town black market who is trading with another black market outfit who is trading with someone else.

Every time it changes hands it becomes more expensive to the end consumer and, therefore, less competitive with food that changes hands fewer times before reaching the consumer. It's certainly not impossible that food produced by the CS makes it into every NA market, but the more convoluted the route from producer to consumer becomes, the less likely that producer is a critical source to that consumer.

--flatline

high price food is still better then starving to death with no food.

Are you claiming that there isn't enough non-CS food production in NA to feed the non-CS population of NA?

Remember that when prices rise, more suppliers will enter the market.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

Where are people getting this "the CS is the breadbasket of the whole continent" stuff? Last I checked plenty of American kingdoms/states like Lazlo, the Indian tribes, the Baronies in CO, every faction of the FoM etc. had no trading relationship with the CS at all and were still capable of feeding their populations. The New West book even mentions that people out there have dinosaur ranches for Christ's sake.

If I remember right they say that in Collation war book. CS trades to northern gun who then trades to others, most trading is done threw third parties. Some lucky kingdoms might feed themselves but on a tight ration. The bulk of the food that most kingdoms needs comes from the CS according to what is in print. No one said that no one else produced food it is just that most city kingdoms are not self sufficient in that mater.

[Blue_Lion]

Aside from Manistique and Northern Gun, Free Quebec and Los Alamo, which American kingdoms does the CS even trade with? They weren't doing business with Tolkeen, they aren't trading with any of the people I mentioned in my previous post, and it really doesn't seem like seeking out new trade partners is on their agenda, aside maybe from the NGR.

The black market might have there hands in the farms, which opens a lot of choices including tolkeen at one time, that and add in black market members trading with each other, so that missing shipment of grain and cattle might be sitting in a warehouse out in Vegas, just waiting on the buyers to show up. You are looking at it as the CS is trading to everybody, when it's a corrupt CS official trading with the chi-town black market who is trading with another black market outfit who is trading with someone else.

Every time it changes hands it becomes more expensive to the end consumer and, therefore, less competitive with food that changes hands fewer times before reaching the consumer. It's certainly not impossible that food produced by the CS makes it into every NA market, but the more convoluted the route from producer to consumer becomes, the less likely that producer is a critical source to that consumer.

--flatline

high price food is still better then starving to death with no food.

Are you claiming that there isn't enough non-CS food production in NA to feed the non-CS population of NA?

Remember that when prices rise, more suppliers will enter the market.

--flatline

I am claiming that is what PB put in print in the coalition war campaign. Just because prices go up does not always mean that suppliers are able to increase to bring it down.

[flatline]

Every time it changes hands it becomes more expensive to the end consumer and, therefore, less competitive with food that changes hands fewer times before reaching the consumer. It's certainly not impossible that food produced by the CS makes it into every NA market, but the more convoluted the route from producer to consumer becomes, the less likely that producer is a critical source to that consumer.

--flatline

high price food is still better then starving to death with no food.

Are you claiming that there isn't enough non-CS food production in NA to feed the non-CS population of NA?

Remember that when prices rise, more suppliers will enter the market.

--flatline

I am claiming that is what PB put in print in the coalition war campaign. Just because prices go up does not always mean that suppliers are able to increase to bring it down.

True, sometimes suppliers can't ramp up fast enough or at all, however that is clearly not the case here unless you're willing to ignore the awesome powers available to the people in this setting. A single mage who knows Sustain can keep thousands of people from starving indefinitely without tapping into his own PPE reserves at all as long as he has (on average) 3 willing participants donating their PPE for every 2 spell recipients (and pocketing any extra PPE for his own use). An enterprising Shifter or Temporal Wizard could make a tremendous profit importing cheap food from locations or dimensions where food is plentiful. Heck, for the unimaginative, Summon and Control Rodents will provide enough protein to keep a small community alive for as long a necessary. The rodents will even provide more PPE than is required to cast the spell, so, again, the mage profits.

Ignoring the CS, how big is the population of NA?

--flatline

[Rimmerdal]

Every time it changes hands it becomes more expensive to the end consumer and, therefore, less competitive with food that changes hands fewer times before reaching the consumer. It's certainly not impossible that food produced by the CS makes it into every NA market, but the more convoluted the route from producer to consumer becomes, the less likely that producer is a critical source to that consumer.

--flatline

high price food is still better then starving to death with no food.

Are you claiming that there isn't enough non-CS food production in NA to feed the non-CS population of NA?

Remember that when prices rise, more suppliers will enter the market.

--flatline

I am claiming that is what PB put in print in the coalition war campaign. Just because prices go up does not always mean that suppliers are able to increase to bring it down.

True, sometimes suppliers can't ramp up fast enough or at all, however that is clearly not the case here unless you're willing to ignore the awesome powers available to the people in this setting. A single mage who knows Sustain can keep thousands of people from starving indefinitely without tapping into his own PPE reserves at all as long as he has (on average) 3 willing participants donating their PPE for every 2 spell recipients (and pocketing any extra PPE for his own use). An enterprising Shifter or Temporal Wizard could make a tremendous profit importing cheap food from locations or dimensions where food is plentiful. Heck, for the unimaginative, Summon and Control Rodents will provide enough protein to keep a small community alive for as long a necessary. The rodents will even provide more PPE than is required to cast the spell, so, again, the mage profits.

Ignoring the CS, how big is the population of NA?

--flatline

Considering the number mages and the number people..as well as other means of food to be made. As for numbers also consider many of the races may not eat food. Psi-stalkers and Psi-slayers can live off the PPE of the SN and CoM's that the CS would have killed.