Excessively High Bonuses to Strike, Parry and Dodge

[Glistam]

In our game the G.M. opened up "everything" as a potential source for character creation, and we all went hog-wild. A few of our characters built melee combatants utilizing the "Weapon Specialization" options in Rifter #30. While it seemed like a fun idea at the time, the bonuses have since gotten way out of hand! These characters all have high P.P. and are at least mid-level. Once all bonuses are added up they end up with something like +20 or more to strike, parry or dodge, and attacks per melee of 12 or more! It gets even more out of hand once magic buffing spells are used (which they frequently are).

The G.M. has been creating N.P.C.'s for us to fight that have equivalent bonuses, and with the judicious use of Negate Magic spells/talismen it's all been working out relatively well, as long as those N.P.C.'s fight those P.C.'s.. An issue which has come up is that these insane bonuses have prevented certain combat moves from EVER being useful in any way. Specifically Disarm, Automatic Flip/Throw, and Roll With Punch, Fall, or Impact.

Rather than completely scrap these insane bonuses (which, the longer we play, the more it seems like this is the only solution), I wonder if there's a way anyone can think of to boost some of those other combat moves I listed. Because when those G.M. made N.P.C.'s designed for the super skilled sword users direct an attack against the squishier members, those moves are all they really have to rely on but a +4 to Roll w/ Punch doesn't really do much when the attack roll we're rolling over is 32.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[Alrik Vas]

I don't understand where the problem is. If everything is super buff, then you're on a level playing field.

Or is it that disarm, auto-flip and Roll with Impact don't benefit from PP bonuses?

(as an aside, my old character Alrik had +20 to attack with his specific sword and had 11 attacks with it, but he was a 15th level character, fortunately he liked guns more)

[eliakon]

In our game the G.M. opened up "everything" as a potential source for character creation, and we all went hog-wild. A few of our characters built melee combatants utilizing the "Weapon Specialization" options in Rifter #30. While it seemed like a fun idea at the time, the bonuses have since gotten way out of hand! These characters all have high P.P. and are at least mid-level. Once all bonuses are added up they end up with something like +20 or more to strike, parry or dodge, and attacks per melee of 12 or more! It gets even more out of hand once magic buffing spells are used (which they frequently are).

The G.M. has been creating N.P.C.'s for us to fight that have equivalent bonuses, and with the judicious use of Negate Magic spells/talismen it's all been working out relatively well, as long as those N.P.C.'s fight those P.C.'s.. An issue which has come up is that these insane bonuses have prevented certain combat moves from EVER being useful in any way. Specifically Disarm, Automatic Flip/Throw, and Roll With Punch, Fall, or Impact.

Rather than completely scrap these insane bonuses (which, the longer we play, the more it seems like this is the only solution), I wonder if there's a way anyone can think of to boost some of those other combat moves I listed. Because when those G.M. made N.P.C.'s designed for the super skilled sword users direct an attack against the squishier members, those moves are all they really have to rely on but a +4 to Roll w/ Punch doesn't really do much when the attack roll we're rolling over is 32.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

On solution I have used frequently is to make certain rolls (especially stuff that has NO bonuses) be contingent on the straight roll of the die. I.e. you roll a 5+23 to strike, I need to beat the 5 with my Roll with Impact, not beat the 23.

[Glistam]

I don't understand where the problem is. If everything is super buff, then you're on a level playing field.

Or is it that disarm, auto-flip and Roll with Impact don't benefit from PP bonuses?

The issue is that Attack rolls are super high but the other defensive choices (besides Parry and Dodge) stayed at reasonable levels, making them useless for anybody to use. I'm looking for solutions which could make those options worth trying to use in these high bonus combats.

[Alrik Vas]

I see what you're saying, okay. Well, I think that eliakon's suggestion is something you could try that might work out (as it cuts down on complication) but there are other ways. Mostly, look at the ways the character's are getting their bonuses. The max you can get from PP i think is +8, so the rest have to be from magic abilities, WP's and gear bonuses?

Remove the gear, negate magic? If i had an understanding of what and how, i could give you suggestions that would work i think, but just knowing someone has a +20 to punch me in the face is a bit worrisome, i'll admit.

Another option is you could change bonuses to strike/parry into bonuses that apply to other things instead. Such as, with a PP over 30, you gain initiative bonuses instead of s/p/d. That's in the actual rules, but you can see where i'm going?

[eliakon]

A variation rule that works too is to cap bonuses. I.E. you can have +27 to strike, but you only get to USE +10...but if your swinging blind (-10), with the wrong hand (-2), with an off balance weapon (-3), Behind you (-4)....you STILL have +10.
thus defenses have a chance to work, but attackers can still have lordly levels of skill, AND will be encouraged to do swashbuckling daring do, simply to soak up those bonuses.

[The Immortal ME]

A variation rule that works too is to cap bonuses. I.E. you can have +27 to strike, but you only get to USE +10...but if your swinging blind (-10), with the wrong hand (-2), with an off balance weapon (-3), Behind you (-4)....you STILL have +10.
thus defenses have a chance to work, but attackers can still have lordly levels of skill, AND will be encouraged to do swashbuckling daring do, simply to soak up those bonuses.

I like that idea. As an aside, your math is a little off.

[Glistam]

A variation rule that works too is to cap bonuses. I.E. you can have +27 to strike, but you only get to USE +10...but if your swinging blind (-10), with the wrong hand (-2), with an off balance weapon (-3), Behind you (-4)....you STILL have +10.
thus defenses have a chance to work, but attackers can still have lordly levels of skill, AND will be encouraged to do swashbuckling daring do, simply to soak up those bonuses.

I think this is a great idea! Thank you.

[random_username]

Some creative and plausible possibilities should exist. Though these may be regarded by some as requiring slightly bona fide leniency.

ROLL WITH PUNCH, FALL, IMPACT:

Special Human/Mutant Human Traits - Defined Talent - Physical: Skating and Skiing. [W13:Lonestar = Traits, W20:Canada = skating & skiing skills.] Technically they are one skill each, however each can be increased in capabilities by adding in up to all three specializations for each skill. The attribute, balance, and roll bonuses remain in effect regardless of usage. Some of the remaining bonuses only apply while on ice or snow. Ultimately for 8 total OCC Related skill selections can end up with a total of +20 to roll. Also note the Speed Skating doubled modifier should some magic/alien tech/whatever skates be available and constantly usable for whatever reason.
Could also switch out Skating for Gymnastics (vs the lesser attribute bonuses of Acrobatics) for only 5 total skills, and reduced to +16 to roll.
Then further take a second "Defined Talent - Physical": Tumbling and Acrobatics.
Various combos and approaches of the above, etc.

Tumbling, Acrobatics, Gymnastics: Simply On Their Own:
Tumbling [Mercenary Adventures, Gladiator available to all physical skill] + Gymnastics + Acrobatics (since these 2 are optional prerequisites anyway). All providing next highest physical skill bonuses to: roll, attributes, etc along with some very basic mobility capabilities. Requires 3 OCC Related Skills.

Boxing and Wrestling. OCC Related Skill Selections. Boxing also very interesting possibility for Defined Talent:Physical (attack, unannounced auto KO range, etc).

Athletics General. Secondary Skill Selection. Also Aerobic Athletics for a Disarm bonus.

Deadball, Juicer Football, Murderthon. Juicer/Theoretically Anyone Sports/Physical Skills. [W10:Juicer Uprising] Essentially professional levels of these sports are played by Juicers or similarly capable/durable beings. The Minors or local versions were typically originally played by regular humans, etc.

Special Human/Mutant Human Traits - Insatiable Desire To Learn (Type 2):
Ensures access to all the physical skills listed above.
Provides a huge amount of bonus skills to make up for using so many skill selections on physical skills.

Obscure HTH Skills:
In theory the "Type 2" ability above provides access to ANY/ALL somehow plausible Hand to Hand skills. Thus possibly obtaining one that provides exceptional bonuses to Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact, Disarm, and so forth.

Minor/Major Super Abilities: [D4:Skraypers - primary mostly stand alone info, +C1R: Conversion Book One Revised minor partial details, +HU2 missing information details, etc.]
Minor: Extraordinary Speed, etc.
Major: Supersonic Speed, Stretching/Elasticity, etc. Also Natural Combat Ability: complicated and cumbersome in practice unless a house-ruled variant is used. House Rule/Common Sense/For The Sake of Everyone's Sanity/Variant = usually simply treat as having the actual HTH:Expert at all times (bonus skill) and include all the power's bonuses in addition to those. Can also treat the disarm/entangle over levels bonus as both a strike and ranged strike bonus (all ranged: modern, archery, targeting) and the replacement for ALL Ancient and Modern Weapon proficiencies effect.

[Glistam]

A variation rule that works too is to cap bonuses. I.E. you can have +27 to strike, but you only get to USE +10...but if your swinging blind (-10), with the wrong hand (-2), with an off balance weapon (-3), Behind you (-4)....you STILL have +10.
thus defenses have a chance to work, but attackers can still have lordly levels of skill, AND will be encouraged to do swashbuckling daring do, simply to soak up those bonuses.

I think this is a great idea! Thank you.

So far 3/4 of our players have thought this is a great idea. Our GM tries to act like he doesn't hate the idea, but he doesn't disguise it well at all. Personally, this will be my new house rule I add onto every new Palladium game I ever run - I like it that much!

[MaxxSterling]

So you guys basically min/maxed your characters and then when your GM did the same thing to you, you're sad about it...? I'd say that the price you pay. I'd just tell you to deal with it, a creative player can work around his characters flaws.

[eliakon]

So you guys basically min/maxed your characters and then when your GM did the same thing to you, you're sad about it...? I'd say that the price you pay. I'd just tell you to deal with it, a creative player can work around his characters flaws.

I would say that there is no need to be personally snippy But considering that it is ludicruously easy to get bonuses of +10 without even trying (I have had non-combat mages with +11s before just from random rolls) then yah, it might be important to have a fall back besides "okay, we just hit each other till one of us falls down"

[MaxxSterling]

The group I run for now has a Bio-Borg with +21 to parry and +18 to dodge. I have another person running a similar character with the same bonuses, they have about +10 to strike and this is at level 4. They also both have +14 vs. magic and +8 vs. psionics. They only have 5 melees though, so anything with 7-10 melees still has potential to mess them up.

For example I had a slave barge attack them yesterday, started out with the ol' mental incapacitator, it took several tries, but I got them and then alternated with the net guns. I had them both pinned at several points. Sure, having players run killer uber characters makes the game harder to play and run and it shuts down some low-level mission type stuff, but run the game big to match them. Random encounters are not simply a gargoyle or a dog boy squad... It's 6 gargoyles or a glitterboy squad. It's all about scaling. I have them fight nothing but level 10 enemies, even though they are level 4. It can work, just know their weaknesses and exploit them, let them have fun and just crush things now and then, but be sure to swiftly remind them, that unless they are a Great Old One, in Rifts, there is ALWAYS a bigger fish.

The point is, if the GM isn't prepared to run a BIG game with massive damage possibilities, then make them play something else... If the characters have a concern that the GM's campaign setting is going to die a terrible death and be crushed by their uber characters, then they should have the foresight to make different weaker characters, instead of trying to tweak the game and rules and force something into a mold it cannot possibly fit into.

[Noon]

I've had the same sort of thing myself.

I invented a power that monsters had that worked as a blast when they make their normal attack - the PC gets a save vs magic, but take half damage even on a pass. That way some damage gets through.

Other things to use are grenades, which they pretty much just get hit by, or declare some attacks (like a charging rhino buffalo) un-parryable and they would have to dodge. They'll probably make the dodge, but they lost an attack in doing so.

[Noon]

instead of trying to tweak the game and rules and force something into a mold it cannot possibly fit into.

Nah, sending in more monsters (purely for mechanical reasons) is no different than capping bonuses (purely for mechanical reasons). Neither is inherently better (barring personal taste).

[MaxxSterling]

Nah, gonna disagree on that one.

[Glistam]

So you guys basically min/maxed your characters and then when your GM did the same thing to you, you're sad about it...? I'd say that the price you pay. I'd just tell you to deal with it, a creative player can work around his characters flaws.

That's not what I'm "sad" about, but thank you for your input.

[eliakon]

instead of trying to tweak the game and rules and force something into a mold it cannot possibly fit into.

Nah, sending in more monsters (purely for mechanical reasons) is no different than capping bonuses (purely for mechanical reasons). Neither is inherently better (barring personal taste).

I find my self in agreement here. Any solution that involves "Well X has been done, so I will do Y to offset X.....is going to be specific to offsetting X...so yes, its a personal/group preference/taste thing at that point.)

[say652]

Karmic power should shut those evil alignments down quick like.
For good aligned characters.........juicers, Ancient masters, The legendary Cosmo (pseudo) KNIGHT.

[say652]

When the good guys end up facing other goodguys. That should spin the old moral compass. Lol

[Shorty Lickens]

They probably cant dodge spells and psi-attacks......

[Alrik Vas]

It's one thing when the GM goes out of their way to challenge the players, it's another when the NPC's of the world know what the PC's are capable of and act accordingly.

[eliakon]

It's one thing when the GM goes out of their way to challenge the players, it's another when the NPC's of the world know what the PC's are capable of and act accordingly.

That depends on how they find out. If its just 'they know because' then yes, its unfair. If its 'Duh, you have a rep, of COURSE people are going to study you'....then it falls more on the parties shoulders. And if its 'The party shows off their superior abilities to everyone while taunting how they are all helpless before them'....Then yah its all on them.

[Alrik Vas]

I agree with your expanded thoughts on the matter, eliakon, though sometimes the GM going out of their way to challenge the players for no reason other than it's a challenge can be fun too.

Sometimes it's okay to remember it's just a game and you're all just havng fun. Ya know? Sometimes The Fight that Breaks the Fourth Wall is pretty cool.


Though i prefer cause and effect, personally.

[Alrik Vas]

Wih that, you don't even need PP anymore. Boxing, Athletics and hand to hand training. Bam, +5 to dodge. Already capped.

Level 1 WP Rifle, scope, aimed shot with a wilk's...bam +5 to strike, already capped.

So when you hit level 2 and you're already the best of the best, what happens? I'm actually kind of comnfused by that.

[Shorty Lickens]

In our game the G.M. opened up "everything" as a potential source for character creation, and we all went hog-wild. A few of our characters built melee combatants utilizing the "Weapon Specialization" options in Rifter #30. While it seemed like a fun idea at the time, the bonuses have since gotten way out of hand! These characters all have high P.P. and are at least mid-level. Once all bonuses are added up they end up with something like +20 or more to strike, parry or dodge, and attacks per melee of 12 or more! It gets even more out of hand once magic buffing spells are used (which they frequently are).

In normal games, I put a cap on bonuses to strike/parry/dodge at +5, regardless of what the books say, for both PCs and NPC's.

That kind of puts a stranglehold on Juicers. Why would anyone let themselves die in 5 years if they cant reap the benefits?

[Nightmask]

Wih that, you don't even need PP anymore. Boxing, Athletics and hand to hand training. Bam, +5 to dodge. Already capped.

Level 1 WP Rifle, scope, aimed shot with a wilk's...bam +5 to strike, already capped.

So when you hit level 2 and you're already the best of the best, what happens? I'm actually kind of comnfused by that.

The reason I did that is because I got sick of people gaming the system. I had one guy who put together a character that legally had +12 to hit and +10 to dodge at first level. If you almost always hit and you almost always dodge, what's the point? It's like playing a video game using God mode.

If everyone (including bad guys) only have +5 to S/P/D, it allows for a lot more mathematical randomness which, translated in game mechanics, makes for a much more random and fun game. I have never liked the way Palladium gives seemingly endless bonuses that end up negating the effectiveness of a D20.

That's not gaming the system, that's the way the system's set up. Might as well remove all bonuses if you're going to cap them so that there's no point taking many of the skills in the game because they're useless. A character that gets lucky and has a high PP wouldn't have any use for the WP for example because they wouldn't add anything.

[Nightmask]

@Nightmask: I have you blocked (because I think you are, largely, a person of questionable intellectual gifts) but I unwisely decided to click on your post so...

The reason I did that is because I got sick of people gaming the system. I had one guy who put together a character that legally had +12 to hit and +10 to dodge at first level. If you almost always hit and you almost always dodge, what's the point? It's like playing a video game using God mode.

If everyone (including bad guys) only have +5 to S/P/D, it allows for a lot more mathematical randomness which, translated in game mechanics, makes for a much more random and fun game. I have never liked the way Palladium gives seemingly endless bonuses that end up negating the effectiveness of a D20.

That's not gaming the system, that's the way the system's set up.

Ah! Now I remember why I blocked you: you strike me as a [slang word for the vagina starting with the letter 'p'] power-gamer type. This is my perspective on the issue: when a player deliberately picks certain skills - for the sole purpose of advancing their characters 'to hit' and parrry/dodge bonuses - reguardless of whether it fits into their character's history and description, then they are gaming the system.

For a real-world example of this, please watch this video in which US Senator Tammy Duckworth calls out a person who you seem to have a lot in common with.

To respond to your original comment, NM, that may be how the system is "set up", but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it or to implement it in my game. The system that I currently use (ie. +5 S/P/D cap) has worked fine for my players over the past four years. In fact, they seem to enjoy having a more mathematically-random system. It reminds them of Old School RPGs like AD&D, Star Frontiers, Gama World, etc.

Might as well remove all bonuses if you're going to cap them so that there's no point taking many of the skills in the game because they're useless. A character that gets lucky and has a high PP wouldn't have any use for the WP for example because they wouldn't add anything.

Boo hoo for you. I'll have my secretary send you a hair-net or something.

If you can't handle constructive criticism and feedback you will not fair well around here as people will disagree with you on things and point out where they believe you to be in error or have not considered all the angles and issues of a particular topic. Given how many around here don't have problems with the open-ended nature of the bonuses or at least accept them as part of the game I doubt they care for your assessment that because they don't you class all of them under the power-gamer label because of that.

[Jerell]

Just had an interesting thought. It would be interesting to do bonuses by comparing levels in WPs and hand to hand then adding PP and OCC bonuses 'n such. So bonuses would be based would be determined something like a stat called Fighting Ability or Weapon Skill or something, then you compare it against your opponents fighting ability (or weapon skill, or whatever you want to call it) then base your bonus to strike or parry on that, you could cap it at a certain number such that for your level 12 Wolfen Soldier, would be able to hit a level 1 Goblin Farmer near as easy as he would hit a level 6 Elf Merc, but would have a harder time hitting something like a level 10 Dwarf Merc.

Off the top of my head, to keep it simple you could do fighting ability/weapon skill +1 per level, starting at level 1. One time +1 for HtH Expert, +2 for HtH Martial Arts. WP lets you use full fighting ability/weapon skill. Using something you don't have a WP for, you could say half or quarter your weapon skill. Then add PP bonus and/or OCC bonuses to FA/WS. Compare the difference of fighting ability for a reasonable bonus capped at whatever you find reasonable like +6, +8 or whatever. Would be an interesting thing to develop and try out, maybe I'll do that some day...

[Alrik Vas]

People run out of dodges, when they do they're also out of attacks. Hard to be effective when people focus on you because you present a great threat.