Rifts Mercenaries and the giggle factor...

[kaid]

One of the biggest problems with naruni weapons is their biggest lines are the plasma cartridge weapons. In an area where their sales outlets has been seriously pruned back by the CS and NG getting a weapon that uses a pretty expensive and increasingly more rare ammo type does not make a whole lot of sense. I would imagine the force fields are still super popular if people can find them probably very very scarce because of that popularity and overall easier to conceal but weapons wise naruni guns are nice but not nice enough to overcome the ammo limitations. While they tend to do more damage than earth made guns the damage difference overall is not big enough to warrant the cost.

If you're stuck paying book prices to charge e-clips, Naruni plasma cartridges are a bargain. If you're not paying book prices to recharge e-clips, then Naruni weapons are probably not appealing to you.

The fact that the CS attacks people with Naruni weapons is of little consequence unless you're actually worried about running into CS forces that would otherwise have been peaceful towards you.

--flatline

Even paying book prices price scales with availability and the availability of plasma cartridges has gone through the basement. In the three galaxies their prices are competitive with eclips if you are paying book prices recharging. In rifts earth given there are only one or two reliable vendors for the stuff and god knows what kind of supply chain they have since they don't have any manufacturing facilities that are known on rifts earth you are probably looking at paying double or more per cartridge and possibly a great deal more. Also if money is not an issue you cannot buy what you cannot find and it is highly likely unless you have bought enormous stock piles of them most mercs are not likely to bother with them other than maybe as a specialty backup weapon.

Really right now other than merc town I think there was one city in texas listed as a sales outlet for naruni goods. Also it is not just the CS going after naruni goods. NG loss prevention is pretty active in hunting down naruni outposts/vendors. The NG also has very good sales for people to trade in naruni weapons/ammo for NG weapons/ammo. The NG sees naruni industries as a huge threat and are doing everything in their power to destroy their outposts on earth and undercut them in the market in every way possible.

[flatline]

One of the biggest problems with naruni weapons is their biggest lines are the plasma cartridge weapons. In an area where their sales outlets has been seriously pruned back by the CS and NG getting a weapon that uses a pretty expensive and increasingly more rare ammo type does not make a whole lot of sense. I would imagine the force fields are still super popular if people can find them probably very very scarce because of that popularity and overall easier to conceal but weapons wise naruni guns are nice but not nice enough to overcome the ammo limitations. While they tend to do more damage than earth made guns the damage difference overall is not big enough to warrant the cost.

If you're stuck paying book prices to charge e-clips, Naruni plasma cartridges are a bargain. If you're not paying book prices to recharge e-clips, then Naruni weapons are probably not appealing to you.

The fact that the CS attacks people with Naruni weapons is of little consequence unless you're actually worried about running into CS forces that would otherwise have been peaceful towards you.

--flatline

Even paying book prices price scales with availability and the availability of plasma cartridges has gone through the basement. In the three galaxies their prices are competitive with eclips if you are paying book prices recharging. In rifts earth given there are only one or two reliable vendors for the stuff and god knows what kind of supply chain they have since they don't have any manufacturing facilities that are known on rifts earth you are probably looking at paying double or more per cartridge and possibly a great deal more. Also if money is not an issue you cannot buy what you cannot find and it is highly likely unless you have bought enormous stock piles of them most mercs are not likely to bother with them other than maybe as a specialty backup weapon.

Really right now other than merc town I think there was one city in texas listed as a sales outlet for naruni goods. Also it is not just the CS going after naruni goods. NG loss prevention is pretty active in hunting down naruni outposts/vendors. The NG also has very good sales for people to trade in naruni weapons/ammo for NG weapons/ammo. The NG sees naruni industries as a huge threat and are doing everything in their power to destroy their outposts on earth and undercut them in the market in every way possible.

Of course they are! They can't compete with $15 for 5d6MD or even $40 for 1d4x10MD so instead they resort to tactics that would be illegal in a more civilized setting.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Thank the gods this isn't a civilized setting. Man, the cities in Rifts Earth are a real drag. i need to gather some barbarians together and turn eveyrthing into mulch.

[kaid]

And thank god that rifts earth has naurni super stores that are in numerous locations all with copious amounts of weapons/ammo for their full line of products and solid supply lines so resupply is frequent so they are not running into shortages.

Yes in the three galaxies where naurni weapon is common and finding places to buy the ammo for the normal prices in the quantities desired is simple then yes their ammunition based weapons are excellent. The problem with rifts earth especially after the NG and CS got involved is their stores are not plentiful their supply lines are tenuous and dependent on rift travel and I don't believe they have talked about where exactly the rifts they are using exit. Then once they exit the rift with their supply caravan they then have to find a way to get it somewhere safe and then resupply what sales outlets they have with those supplies.

You may get a merc here or there who just loves the stuff so much they go out of their way to hunt one of the plasma cartridge weapons down and then stock pile as much of the ammo as they can afford/cart away because there is no telling when or even if they will ever have access to buy it again.

[Alrik Vas]

That would have been me. I bought 100k rounds back in the day.

[flatline]

And thank god that rifts earth has naurni super stores that are in numerous locations all with copious amounts of weapons/ammo for their full line of products and solid supply lines so resupply is frequent so they are not running into shortages.

Yes in the three galaxies where naurni weapon is common and finding places to buy the ammo for the normal prices in the quantities desired is simple then yes their ammunition based weapons are excellent. The problem with rifts earth especially after the NG and CS got involved is their stores are not plentiful their supply lines are tenuous and dependent on rift travel and I don't believe they have talked about where exactly the rifts they are using exit. Then once they exit the rift with their supply caravan they then have to find a way to get it somewhere safe and then resupply what sales outlets they have with those supplies.

You may get a merc here or there who just loves the stuff so much they go out of their way to hunt one of the plasma cartridge weapons down and then stock pile as much of the ammo as they can afford/cart away because there is no telling when or even if they will ever have access to buy it again.

Is stockpiling ammunition so unreasonable? I know lots of gun owners who buy bulk ammunition whether or not the ammunition is hard to find and many of them have more ammunition than they could possibly shoot. In Rifts, where you're actually more likely to go through ammunition quickly, I would expect stockpiling to be the norm especially if we're talking about organizations and not just individual gun owners.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

In Rifts, where you're actually more likely to go through ammunition quickly, I would expect stockpiling to be the norm especially if we're talking about organizations and not just individual gun owners.
--flatline

If "you" are "soldiers, adventurers, and/or mercenaries who regularly engage in combat," then I agree.
But there are plenty of homesteaders and town militias out there that probably don't see regular mega-damage combat.
They'd stock up as much as they reasonably could afford, but that's not necessarily a huge amount.

[glitterboy2098]

i could see a typical 'wilderness' community using a bakers dozen or so L-20's, with an e-clip recharger they payed a wandering Operator to cobble together using a windmill or similar source for electricity. might not recharge rapidly, but since it is unlikely they'd be doing constant fighting that shouldn't be a big issue.

[flatline]

In Rifts, where you're actually more likely to go through ammunition quickly, I would expect stockpiling to be the norm especially if we're talking about organizations and not just individual gun owners.
--flatline

If "you" are "soldiers, adventurers, and/or mercenaries who regularly engage in combat," then I agree.
But there are plenty of homesteaders and town militias out there that probably don't see regular mega-damage combat.
They'd stock up as much as they reasonably could afford, but that's not necessarily a huge amount.

The argument is that Naruni is unappealing since it can be hard to find ammunition to purchase. The counter-argument is that if people are willing to stockpile ammunition, then for those people, the potential difficulty in purchasing new ammunition might not be a factor in their decision to use Naruni weapons.

Clearly, for people who are unable to stockpile ammo, the counter-argument does not apply.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

In Rifts, where you're actually more likely to go through ammunition quickly, I would expect stockpiling to be the norm especially if we're talking about organizations and not just individual gun owners.
--flatline

If "you" are "soldiers, adventurers, and/or mercenaries who regularly engage in combat," then I agree.
But there are plenty of homesteaders and town militias out there that probably don't see regular mega-damage combat.
They'd stock up as much as they reasonably could afford, but that's not necessarily a huge amount.

The argument is that Naruni is unappealing since it can be hard to find ammunition to purchase. The counter-argument is that if people are willing to stockpile ammunition, then for those people, the potential difficulty in purchasing new ammunition might not be a factor in their decision to use Naruni weapons.

Clearly, for people who are unable to stockpile ammo, the counter-argument does not apply.

--flatline

What does apply is that Naruni rounds are superior to E-Clips for low-resource defenders who don't need to use much ammunition.
A single E-Clip might provide 30 shots to one defender, but in many cases it would be preferable to have 30 defenders, each of whom could fire a single MD attack.
And the low cost of Naruni ammunition would mean access to customers that cannot afford regular MD weapons.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Can't stockpile what's not there to purchase and, well stockpile.

It's gotten better recently but go back 6 months and try and find 'common' ammo in stores. Unless you were there when the truck came in, and got lucky and your bullets were in that shipment you just didn't get the ammo. And that's in modern day US, with no laws outlawing it, etc. Due to the shooting the december before last gun owners (And even people who previously were not) Freaked out. Bought up every AR on the market and tons of other guns as well. Took right at a year for them to start appearing in stores again. Ammo is starting to appear now but still sells out rapidly. I found 200 rounds of 380 for my wife's pistol the other day and snagged it. Mentioned it at the gun store last night and the seller was surprised. He works in the gun store and said he hadn't seen that round since before thanks giving. And he works there.

In Rifts earth there was 20 Naurani selling stuff in NA. They traveled around but still, not that many guys for that area. Stocking up is well and good but how many 100s to 1000s of rounds do you guys think those 20 have in their APC or whatever when they roll into town? We're talking rather large plasma carterages too. Remember the bore on their weapons is huge. At the very least they're large shot gun shell size, but probably between themm and 20mm grenade size.

They're also... ya know.. Plasma carterages. Having a stockpile is great till someone shoots the pile.


But yeah, people who 'could' and who were insane enough to use the stuff in NA with the "Vaporize on sight' order of the CS out there, would likely try and get a good amount, when/if they could, but it's still going to be limited by how much one of those guys had on him at the time. Then once you're outt, you gotta find one of those guys again to get more, small numbers, post apoc world and the guys are in hiding least the CS kill them just for breathing means your resupply when you DO run out is going to be amazingly hard.

[Pepsi Jedi]

In Rifts, where you're actually more likely to go through ammunition quickly, I would expect stockpiling to be the norm especially if we're talking about organizations and not just individual gun owners.
--flatline

If "you" are "soldiers, adventurers, and/or mercenaries who regularly engage in combat," then I agree.
But there are plenty of homesteaders and town militias out there that probably don't see regular mega-damage combat.
They'd stock up as much as they reasonably could afford, but that's not necessarily a huge amount.

The argument is that Naruni is unappealing since it can be hard to find ammunition to purchase. The counter-argument is that if people are willing to stockpile ammunition, then for those people, the potential difficulty in purchasing new ammunition might not be a factor in their decision to use Naruni weapons.

Clearly, for people who are unable to stockpile ammo, the counter-argument does not apply.

--flatline

What does apply is that Naruni rounds are superior to E-Clips for low-resource defenders who don't need to use much ammunition.
A single E-Clip might provide 30 shots to one defender, but in many cases it would be preferable to have 30 defenders, each of whom could fire a single MD attack.
And the low cost of Naruni ammunition would mean access to customers that cannot afford regular MD weapons.

That's not factoring in the cost of the 30 rifles needed to each shoot the one attack.

[eliakon]

I would think if your going to go the cheep MD amuntion route, wouldn't you be using either Gyrojet bullets, Explosive Bullets, or possibly Laser Cartridges? All of which provide MD attacks, allow all the advantages of stockpiling ammunition, do NOT have 'shoot on sight orders from the CS, AND use conventional weapons that can be used for hunting too? (even the laser rounds can be fired from normal guns, at a risk)

[flatline]

What are Gyrojet bullets and where are they described?

--flatline

[rat_bastard]

I would think if your going to go the cheep MD amuntion route, wouldn't you be using either Gyrojet bullets, Explosive Bullets, or possibly Laser Cartridges? All of which provide MD attacks, allow all the advantages of stockpiling ammunition, do NOT have 'shoot on sight orders from the CS, AND use conventional weapons that can be used for hunting too? (even the laser rounds can be fired from normal guns, at a risk)

Very case by case. Naruni will come to your village offer to let you test fire product and offer product support if in many cases, so will Wilk's and Wellington but not everyone is everywhere and the Naruni gear tends to be obviously better.

[Alrik Vas]

They're also... ya know.. Plasma carterages. Having a stockpile is great till someone shoots the pile.


But yeah, people who 'could' and who were insane enough to use the stuff in NA with the "Vaporize on sight' order of the CS out there, would likely try and get a good amount, when/if they could, but it's still going to be limited by how much one of those guys had on him at the time. Then once you're outt, you gotta find one of those guys again to get more, small numbers, post apoc world and the guys are in hiding least the CS kill them just for breathing means your resupply when you DO run out is going to be amazingly hard.

Hide your supply caches. Learn where your enemy travels and don't put your crap in his way. Leave it under inconspicuous guard if possible. That should help you avoid getting your supplies blown up while you're not around.

Also, yes, the cartridges are large for single shots. The naruni don't carry millions of them in their travelling merchant APC's, also correct.

But if you make a deal with one and he brings the supplies to the specified, secured location...you tend to get your stuff. Not always, but tend to.

[eliakon]

I would think if your going to go the cheep MD amuntion route, wouldn't you be using either Gyrojet bullets, Explosive Bullets, or possibly Laser Cartridges? All of which provide MD attacks, allow all the advantages of stockpiling ammunition, do NOT have 'shoot on sight orders from the CS, AND use conventional weapons that can be used for hunting too? (even the laser rounds can be fired from normal guns, at a risk)

Very case by case. Naruni will come to your village offer to let you test fire product and offer product support if in many cases, so will Wilk's and Wellington but not everyone is everywhere and the Naruni gear tends to be obviously better.

Better IF you can get more of it, IF you can get one of the 20 merchants to come to your villiage, and IF you have the expensive Naruni guns to fire it from, and IF you don't mind having a few high DPS defenders versus many low DPS defenders.

My point was that the MD bullets can be fired from conventional hunting rifles and the like. This means that you don't need two weapons, you have your normal SD hunting/police weapons that you can issue MD rounds for as needed.
The weapons are much cheaper (1000cr will get you a fairly decent assault rifle for instance versus the Naruni weapons which start around 40k) and the ammunition is fairly cheep as well (2-30cr per round depending on what your getting versus 40cr per round for plasma cartriges)

So I can buy 40 AK-47 Knock offs, for the price of one Naruni Rifle, and then I can buy 10 explosive bullets or 4-8 Ramjet rounds for the same price as each plasma cartridge. All with out having to have a weapon that is a death sentence anywhere the CS, FQ, or MI has sway. It sounds like a sweet deal. It might not do as MUCH damage per shot. but 40 bursts of either 1d6 or 2d4 vs 1 shot of 1d4x10 sounds a lot better to me.

[Killer Cyborg]

In Rifts, where you're actually more likely to go through ammunition quickly, I would expect stockpiling to be the norm especially if we're talking about organizations and not just individual gun owners.
--flatline

If "you" are "soldiers, adventurers, and/or mercenaries who regularly engage in combat," then I agree.
But there are plenty of homesteaders and town militias out there that probably don't see regular mega-damage combat.
They'd stock up as much as they reasonably could afford, but that's not necessarily a huge amount.

The argument is that Naruni is unappealing since it can be hard to find ammunition to purchase. The counter-argument is that if people are willing to stockpile ammunition, then for those people, the potential difficulty in purchasing new ammunition might not be a factor in their decision to use Naruni weapons.

Clearly, for people who are unable to stockpile ammo, the counter-argument does not apply.

--flatline

What does apply is that Naruni rounds are superior to E-Clips for low-resource defenders who don't need to use much ammunition.
A single E-Clip might provide 30 shots to one defender, but in many cases it would be preferable to have 30 defenders, each of whom could fire a single MD attack.
And the low cost of Naruni ammunition would mean access to customers that cannot afford regular MD weapons.

That's not factoring in the cost of the 30 rifles needed to each shoot the one attack.

True. But you could also just make bangsticks and powerhead arrows with them instead of firing them from a weapon.
This would, of course, sacrifice the range that a decent gun brings to the table.

[eliakon]

What are Gyrojet bullets and where are they described?

--flatline

Sorry, Ramjet rounds

[Killer Cyborg]

And yeah, the "CS will kill you on sight" thing is a big negative, but not so much for people that already fall under that banner.

[eliakon]

And yeah, the "CS will kill you on sight" thing is a big negative, but not so much for people that already fall under that banner.

true, though the
1.2million for 30 guns versus 30k for the same number of weapons might be a big incentive.

[Alrik Vas]

It's about doing the damager, per rifle, faster. APRJ rounds are good, but nowhere near as good as a NE plasma round.

[eliakon]

It's about doing the damager, per rifle, faster. APRJ rounds are good, but nowhere near as good as a NE plasma round.

which is a very important issue for an adventurer. But not nearly as important for something like a villiage milita that has to budget its money. the Budget also makes this a false analogy. If you only have say a budget of 200,000cr then you can have 5 rifles doing 1d4x10 damage (5d4x10) or you can have 200 rifles doing 2d4 (400d4)
Suddenly the Naruni weapons aren't nearly as impressive.
Don't get me wrong, they are GREAT for people with the kinds of large budgets to buy expensive top of the line weapons, and the ammunition to go with them (Adventurers, Militaries, Mercenaries, and the like). But if you can't afford top of the line stuff, which you can only use for military use (you cant hunt to well with plasma rifle for instance) or you have more people to equip than you can outfit with expensive guns (30 people vs 200) then you might want to go with the "Quantity has a quality all its own." theory of resource management

Edit: I didn't put the cost of ammunition in there, but the plasma rounds are 10 times as expensive as explosive rounds. which is another economy of scale.

[Killer Cyborg]

The effectiveness of explosive rounds such as the WI-2E has been messed up by the changes in the burst/spray rules.
The mega-damage capabilities of those rounds is based on a 20-round burst, and most modern weapons cannot fire that kind of burst any more.
The MP-23A Caseless SMG can, but it's CR 4,500.
If your budget is CR 200,000, you could only afford 44 of those SMGs.
Granted, that's still more guns that you could afford with that budget if you were purchasing Naruni guns.

A standard SMG from RUE that was loaded with explosive rounds would inflict 12d6 SDC per shot, 3d4x10 SDC per 3-round burst, or 3d6x10+12 SDC for a 6-round burst that takes up 2 attacks.
While you could still inflict mega-damage sometimes using this kind of weapon/ammo combo, it wouldn't be reliable. A single shot would only be able to inflict even 1 MD on a high-damage crit. A 3-round burst might inflict 1 MD on a high-damage roll, but on average would only inflict about 75 SDC. A 6-round burst would be able to inflict 1 MD on an average attack, but it takes up 2 attacks to fire that many rounds.

Assault rifles would be a bit better, but not that much.
Machine Guns can fire bursts of 20+ rounds, but only in a long burst that takes up 3 attacks. Machine guns would also be more expensive than assault rifles or standard SMGs (though probably still a bit cheaper than the Wellington SMG).

[Shark_Force]

yeah, pretty sure the NG APRJ rounds were decided as being among the best choices for a town militia (since they can presumably be fired from a regular shotgun, or at least one made from MDC materials). i'd say naruni isn't likely to win over small towns. the cost difference is just too dramatic, and while the range on naruni gear is a huge difference, for most towns they just can't afford to buy enough naruni product to defend themselves, especially against when a sizable portion of the threats they face are monsters and magic-users that want to get up close anyways.

[Killer Cyborg]

yeah, pretty sure the NG APRJ rounds were decided as being among the best choices for a town militia (since they can presumably be fired from a regular shotgun, or at least one made from MDC materials). i'd say naruni isn't likely to win over small towns. the cost difference is just too dramatic, and while the range on naruni gear is a huge difference, for most towns they just can't afford to buy enough naruni product to defend themselves, especially against when a sizable portion of the threats they face are monsters and magic-users that want to get up close anyways.

Any MDC shotgun should fire a Naruni Plasma round as well. It's just a matter of getting the gauge right.

IF APRJ rounds can be fired from normal shotguns, and Naruni Plasma rounds cannot be fired from an SDC weapon of the right gauge, that does give APRJ rounds a pretty solid edge in any community that doesn't plan to use much ammo.
But we don't know for certain if APRJ rounds (or NP rounds) can be fired from conventional shotguns.
The only weapon that we know for sure CAN fire APRJ rounds is the NG-11S, and it costs CR 4,000 per weapon.
Which is still a lot cheaper than the cheapest Naruni gun in the RGMG: the NE-H10 Plasma Derringer still costs CR 10,000, 2.5x as much as the NG-11S.
But the damage for Naruni rounds is also 66% greater than the APRJ rounds, for 1/10th the cost per round.

If you're not planning to shoot many rounds, the APRJ rounds and guns are cheaper.
Two NG-11Ss and 20 rounds of ammunition costs CR 11,000.
1 Naruni Plasma Derringer and 66 rounds of ammunition costs you slightly less than that.

I can see situations where the Naruni rounds would be the better bet, but I can see situations where the NG-11Ss would be the better bet.
The more guns you need and the less ammunition you need, the more APRJ rounds are definitely the way to go.
The fewer guns you need and the more ammunition you need, the more NP rounds are the way to go.

[flatline]

Edit: I didn't put the cost of ammunition in there, but the plasma rounds are 10 times as expensive as explosive rounds. which is another economy of scale.

Make sure you're doing a fair comparison. For $40, a plasma cartridge averages 25MD.

A single explosive bullet does zero MD. You have to fire bursts to do MD. How many explosive bullets do you need to fire in a burst (or several bursts) to do 25MD on average? Are you still saving money?

I'd do the math for you, but I don't have my books.

--flatline

[SolCannibal]

Wow, i'm amazed at how far things have gone since my mention of the Naruni.

Real shame no decent reason ever came up for Tolkeen not to buy their stuff in bulk - what is weird considering they HAD great access to transdimensional resources that should make the logistics of getting it all in time much simpler.

Though truth be told, i THINK there's mention in Naruni Wave 2 that the Kingdom of Tolkeen made one such purchase, only it was a little too late for they good and the kingdom fell BEFORE the transfer came through. So they are arming the Tolkeen freedom fighters & retribution squads instead.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wow, i'm amazed at how far things have gone since my mention of the Naruni.

Real shame no decent reason ever came up for Tolkeen not to buy their stuff in bulk - what is weird considering they HAD great access to transdimensional resources that should make the logistics of getting it all in time much simpler.

Though truth be told, i THINK there's mention in Naruni Wave 2 that the Kingdom of Tolkeen made one such purchase, only it was a little too late for they good and the kingdom fell BEFORE the transfer came through. So they are arming the Tolkeen freedom fighters & retribution squads instead.

There's a LOT of stuff that they missed out on or screwed up with the Tolkeen books.

[eliakon]

Edit: I didn't put the cost of ammunition in there, but the plasma rounds are 10 times as expensive as explosive rounds. which is another economy of scale.

Make sure you're doing a fair comparison. For $40, a plasma cartridge averages 25MD.

A single explosive bullet does zero MD. You have to fire bursts to do MD. How many explosive bullets do you need to fire in a burst (or several bursts) to do 25MD on average? Are you still saving money?

I'd do the math for you, but I don't have my books.

--flatline

Using the new rules for bursts we get
1MD for 5cr, 2MD for 15cr, and 3MD for 30cr (Assuming your firing WI-10 Ramjet rounds)
So lets take the Plasma Rifle (40,000cr) with its magazine of 10 rounds (400cr). This can do an average of 25MD/action ten times, for 250MD
for the same 40,000 lets buy 25 AK-47s (25,000cr) and 3000 rounds (15,000cr) this can do
-25MD/action 120 times for 3000MD
-50MD/action 40 times for 2000MD
-75MD/action 20 times for 1500MD
-Or a combination of the three

Reloading would be more expensive for the WI-10s than the Plasma cartridges. At 1.6 Cr/MD for Plasma and 5cr/MD for WI-10, or 3.2 times. so yes over a long haul, if you have many many fights, you can save a few credits per MD point inflicted.
My Math-Fu is not up to calculating how many attacks it would take before the plasma is cheaper per MD.

[Killer Cyborg]

Edit: I didn't put the cost of ammunition in there, but the plasma rounds are 10 times as expensive as explosive rounds. which is another economy of scale.

Make sure you're doing a fair comparison. For $40, a plasma cartridge averages 25MD.

A single explosive bullet does zero MD. You have to fire bursts to do MD. How many explosive bullets do you need to fire in a burst (or several bursts) to do 25MD on average? Are you still saving money?

I'd do the math for you, but I don't have my books.

--flatline

Using the new rules for bursts we get
1MD for 5cr, 2MD for 15cr, and 3MD for 30cr (Assuming your firing WI-10 Ramjet rounds)
So lets take the Plasma Rifle (40,000cr) with its magazine of 10 rounds (400cr). This can do an average of 25MD/action ten times, for 250MD
for the same 40,000 lets buy 25 AK-47s (25,000cr) and 3000 rounds (15,000cr) this can do
-25MD/action 120 times for 3000MD
-50MD/action 40 times for 2000MD
-75MD/action 20 times for 1500MD
-Or a combination of the three

Reloading would be more expensive for the WI-10s than the Plasma cartridges. At 1.6 Cr/MD for Plasma and 5cr/MD for WI-10, or 3.2 times. so yes over a long haul, if you have many many fights, you can save a few credits per MD point inflicted.
My Math-Fu is not up to calculating how many attacks it would take before the plasma is cheaper per MD.

Pretty good mathing, though.

I think the bolded is perhaps the most important factor: it depends on how many fights you expect to get into.
Also, how much practice-shooting you want your troops to have with the MD ammo.

[SolCannibal]

Wow, i'm amazed at how far things have gone since my mention of the Naruni.

Real shame no decent reason ever came up for Tolkeen not to buy their stuff in bulk - what is weird considering they HAD great access to transdimensional resources that should make the logistics of getting it all in time much simpler.

Though truth be told, i THINK there's mention in Naruni Wave 2 that the Kingdom of Tolkeen made one such purchase, only it was a little too late for they good and the kingdom fell BEFORE the transfer came through. So they are arming the Tolkeen freedom fighters & retribution squads instead.

There's a LOT of stuff that they missed out on or screwed up with the Tolkeen books.

Naruni Wave 2 left a little to be desired too imho - i went looking for plots and some new grand strategy of theirs and we get loads of guns and barely 15 pages of background if that much. More information about the True Naruni, that for supernatural beings don't look much beyond smarter gargoyles or brodkill would be much appreciated too.

Not to mention the Naruni are arms sellers, not conquerors, they should be looking for new markets and supply lines, not wasting time with revenge and competition. In fact Rifts Earth's main value is not as a big market (what it certainly is not) but as waypoint to hundreds, even thousands, of worlds & dimensions, if they want serious profit they should look for as many communities close to nexus as they can to turn into way stations, getting the locals (obsolete, cheapo to provide for Naruni) hardware and tech support at a discount in exchange for free passage.

Each small town turned safe by the fixing of a portal and trade with the Naruni is a new link in their multidimensional supply lines and search for markets. Not to mention that with time those communities might prosper and turn into new markets of their own.

Not to mention buffing local communities against monster powers with equipment too antiquated for their usual markets is a halfway decent way of countering the influence of the Splugorth without actually confronting them, something really to be avoided considering they have a whole continent for themselves already.

Speaking of almost continents...how promising or not could Australia or Greenland be for Naruni Enterprises?

[flatline]

There's nothing wrong with your math, but how many fights do you expect to survive if your attacks do 3MD but your opponent's attacks do 25MD?

--flatline

[SolCannibal]

There's nothing wrong with your math, but how many fights do you expect to survive if your attacks do 3MD but your opponent's attacks do 25MD?

--flatline

Depends on how many people shooting on each side there are - and i think that is his point.

[Killer Cyborg]

Naruni Wave 2 left a little to be desired too imho - i went looking for plots and some new grand strategy of theirs and we get loads of guns and barely 15 pages of background if that much.

Yup.

Not to mention the Naruni are arms sellers, not conquerors, they should be looking for new markets and supply lines, not wasting time with revenge and competition. In fact Rifts Earth's main value is not as a big market (what it certainly is not) but as waypoint to hundreds, even thousands, of worlds & dimensions, if they want serious profit they should look for as many communities close to nexus as they can to turn into way stations, getting the locals (obsolete, cheapo to provide for Naruni) hardware and tech support at a discount in exchange for free passage.

Right.
They should be selling their arms in BtS Earth, N&S Earth, Robotech (on Earth and in Space), Palladium, Recon Earth, TMNT Earth, and pretty much every other place they can get to... which should be a lot of places.

I think that the biggest mistake that Palladium ever did was to throw the doors between dimensions WIDE open, without providing any kind of balancing system for the ensuing chaos.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's nothing wrong with your math, but how many fights do you expect to survive if your attacks do 3MD but your opponent's attacks do 25MD?

--flatline

Depends on how many people shooting on each side there are - and i think that is his point.

Exactly.
You have 20 guys doing 3 MD per attack, that's 45 MD per attack the first round.

[SolCannibal]

Naruni Wave 2 left a little to be desired too imho - i went looking for plots and some new grand strategy of theirs and we get loads of guns and barely 15 pages of background if that much.

Yup.

Not to mention the Naruni are arms sellers, not conquerors, they should be looking for new markets and supply lines, not wasting time with revenge and competition. In fact Rifts Earth's main value is not as a big market (what it certainly is not) but as waypoint to hundreds, even thousands, of worlds & dimensions, if they want serious profit they should look for as many communities close to nexus as they can to turn into way stations, getting the locals (obsolete, cheapo to provide for Naruni) hardware and tech support at a discount in exchange for free passage.

Right.
They should be selling their arms in BtS Earth, N&S Earth, Robotech (on Earth and in Space), Palladium, Recon Earth, TMNT Earth, and pretty much every other place they can get to... which should be a lot of places.

I think that the biggest mistake that Palladium ever did was to throw the doors between dimensions WIDE open, without providing any kind of balancing system for the ensuing chaos.

Well, dimensions are enormous places, specially the alternate universes - actual search for markets and setting up shops can be quite time and resource-consuming even with previous or insider knowledge. Without it who knows how many hells could swallow an unprepared explorer. In fact i'm guessing to a number of powers it is this previous knowledge of a ludricous amount of dimensions one of the main reasons in favor of not exterminating shifters throughout the Megaverse...

[rat_bastard]

I'd like to make a moment to point out that Grenades are not always about damage,

The Wilk's Blinder Grenade does not do a single point of damage and yet it is probably the best grenade in the game, the laser grenade is no slouch but is extremely silly (not laser bow silly but silly all the same)
Goblin Grenades do things like act as magic net or carpet of adhesion spells, very useful
The Japanese Concussion Grenades apply huge penalties to a victim to a huge area
In Merc Ops there is a TW grenade that puts the target in a pocket dimension for 1d4+1 rounds, plenty of time for you to get into mischief or run away.

I would cheerfully carry a harness full of these little babies if I had the good fortune to choose which ones I got a hold of.

[eliakon]

There's nothing wrong with your math, but how many fights do you expect to survive if your attacks do 3MD but your opponent's attacks do 25MD?

--flatline

Depends on how many people shooting on each side there are - and i think that is his point.

Yerp.
lets look at it broken down with 2 different forces.
Force 1 will have a suit of Homespun MD armor with 30MD, a Plasma Rifle, and a Loaded clip
Force 2 will have 25 guys with Homespum MD armor with 30MD, Ak-47s, and 3 40 round magazines

Force 1.
Round 1 Action 1 I shoot you for 25MD, you shoot back for 25MD.
Round 1 Action 2 I shoot you for 25MD, you shoot back for 25MD, my guy is dead
Round 1 Action 3 I have someone else pick up the weapon, You get to shoot him....

Force 2
Round 1 Action 1 I shoot you 25 times for 1MD, you shoot one of us for 25MD
Round 1 Action 2 I shoot you 25 times for 1MD, you shoot the guy again and kill him
Round 1 Action 2 I shoot you 24 times for 3MD "They killed Kenny", and have some one pick up the dropped rifle You shoot another guy for 25MD......

Now, if your bandits, which force would you rather face?

[Alrik Vas]

My head is exploding at this example.

Are you saying that 25md per hit from one source isn't as good as 1md per hit from 25 sources? Take tactics out of the picture and absolutely.

A better example might be...35 MD armor, each trooper has 3 total magazines of ammunition and they're all in range of each other across an open field. You take 30 guys a side. the 30 1md damage guys focus fire, kill no one. The 30 other guys split into 3 man fire teams and annihilate the other side in less than a melee while losing maybe 2 guys.

when the bodies are even, it's not so much a question at all.

But i'm probably missing the point.

[eliakon]

My head is exploding at this example.

Are you saying that 25md per hit from one source isn't as good as 1md per hit from 25 sources? Take tactics out of the picture and absolutely.

A better example might be...35 MD armor, each trooper has 3 total magazines of ammunition and they're all in range of each other across an open field. You take 30 guys a side. the 30 1md damage guys focus fire, kill no one. The 30 other guys split into 3 man fire teams and annihilate the other side in less than a melee while losing maybe 2 guys.

when the bodies are even, it's not so much a question at all.

But i'm probably missing the point.

The point was that you can do 25md two ways. you can buy 1 plasma rifle, or 25 AK47s. so the village defenders can either put all their MD defense in one guy that does 25md per shot, or 25 guys that do 1md per shot. Its still 25md per action. SO the question is, what is the best way to spend you defense budget. Some are advocating stockpiling Naruni cartragiges, I am advocating WI-10 rounds, combined with the redundancy of multiple weapons. If you have unlimited funds, then yes by all means get the plasma weapons. But since I can buy 40 AK-47s for each Plasma Rifle......

Put it this way. Lets say I have 100,000cr to spend to defend a town. I can buy
2 Naruni Plasma rifles, and 50 10 round magazines
or
50 AK-47s, and 250 40 round magazines

Either way I do 50MD per action (on single shot)

[Shark_Force]

Any MDC shotgun should fire a Naruni Plasma round as well. It's just a matter of getting the gauge right.

IF APRJ rounds can be fired from normal shotguns, and Naruni Plasma rounds cannot be fired from an SDC weapon of the right gauge, that does give APRJ rounds a pretty solid edge in any community that doesn't plan to use much ammo.
But we don't know for certain if APRJ rounds (or NP rounds) can be fired from conventional shotguns.
The only weapon that we know for sure CAN fire APRJ rounds is the NG-11S, and it costs CR 4,000 per weapon.

we know for sure that the NG-11S can fire both regular shotgun rounds and the APRJ rounds interchangeably. the most likely reason is that they use the same firing mechanism, but even if it requires some conversion, you're not switching to the MD (or possibly conventional) shotgun primarily for cost anyways. you're doing it so that you can have more than 2 shots before needing to reload, mostly (also, there's a chance that barrel length actually has an impact on accuracy and range). well, that and the fact that a conventional shotgun will likely get better performance out of regular shotgun shells than an idiotic sawed-off shotgun.

*if* you can use a conventional shotgun, that means you should have potential for burst firing, and it also means it's only a matter of investing in ammunition, which makes it even more impressive.

there are also, iirc, special MD shotgun rounds in the GMG, and i'm not sure what the source of those is either. maybe they're from the equalizer shotgun in the south america books? (think it was the SRR, which would make it book 2 if i'm not mistaken).

[flatline]

there are also, iirc, special MD shotgun rounds in the GMG, and i'm not sure what the source of those is either. maybe they're from the equalizer shotgun in the south america books? (think it was the SRR, which would make it book 2 if i'm not mistaken).

You're probably thinking of the APRJ rounds mentioned on page 157 in the NG-11S "Sawed-Off" description. They should work in any 12-guage shotgun, cost $20, and do 2d6MD. They are more cost effective than just about anything else in the game for the damage they do, but sometimes 2d6MD just isn't enough.

To put things in perspective, though, the king of damage per dollar is, again, Naruni. Their "small" plasma cartridge does 5d6MD and costs a mere $15. If you're looking to outfit a militia, the NE-2L Plasma Cartridge Auto-Pistol is $10k and fires these "small" cartridges. It's hard to do better than that on a budget. I don't have Naruni Wave 2, so if there's something better in there, I don't know about it.

I do have a soft spot for shotguns, so even though it's not optimal, you'll often see me suggest using APRJ rounds in a shotgun, preferably with 2 selectable tubes so that I can switch between APRJ rounds and explosive rounds (expensive, but handy).

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Any MDC shotgun should fire a Naruni Plasma round as well. It's just a matter of getting the gauge right.

IF APRJ rounds can be fired from normal shotguns, and Naruni Plasma rounds cannot be fired from an SDC weapon of the right gauge, that does give APRJ rounds a pretty solid edge in any community that doesn't plan to use much ammo.
But we don't know for certain if APRJ rounds (or NP rounds) can be fired from conventional shotguns.
The only weapon that we know for sure CAN fire APRJ rounds is the NG-11S, and it costs CR 4,000 per weapon.

we know for sure that the NG-11S can fire both regular shotgun rounds and the APRJ rounds interchangeably. the most likely reason is that they use the same firing mechanism...

Agreed.
The only question really is whether the shotgun has to be made out of MDC materials or not.
I would lean toward assuming that it does NOT have to be MDC, but it's still an assumption.

*if* you can use a conventional shotgun, that means you should have potential for burst firing, and it also means it's only a matter of investing in ammunition, which makes it even more impressive.

Yup.
I've used the Saiga-12 as an example before of a cheap weapon that can potentially hold its own against futuristic guns, if you have the right ammo and an open GM.

there are also, iirc, special MD shotgun rounds in the GMG, and i'm not sure what the source of those is either. maybe they're from the equalizer shotgun in the south america books? (think it was the SRR, which would make it book 2 if i'm not mistaken).

I looked up the source one time, or stumbled onto it, but I forget where they're from.

[flatline]

Before I go to bed, I just want to point out that nobody should ever consider the Wilk's laser cartridges. Ever.

$320 per shot for 3d6MD is roughly 4 times worse than simply paying book prices to recharge an e-clip (which is already criminal).

After 32 shots, you've already payed more than $10k in ammo costs alone.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

True. But you could also just make bangsticks and powerhead arrows with them instead of firing them from a weapon.
This would, of course, sacrifice the range that a decent gun brings to the table.

I'm sick and haven't looked it up, but if memory serves, range on the Naruni weapons are horrible. My AR15 has better ranges than most of their guns. (But I've had like no sleep and could be mis-remembering and mixing them with something else.)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Wow, i'm amazed at how far things have gone since my mention of the Naruni.

Real shame no decent reason ever came up for Tolkeen not to buy their stuff in bulk - what is weird considering they HAD great access to transdimensional resources that should make the logistics of getting it all in time much simpler.

Though truth be told, i THINK there's mention in Naruni Wave 2 that the Kingdom of Tolkeen made one such purchase, only it was a little too late for they good and the kingdom fell BEFORE the transfer came through. So they are arming the Tolkeen freedom fighters & retribution squads instead.

The decent reason was that Tolkeen was a kingdom of magic, and thought magic was surperior to technology.

This is.. not just touched on but punched repeatedly in the face if you read up on magic in Rifts earth, mages of different flavors and all. While there is no 'rule' that says a mage couldn't just pick up a plasma injector and mow someone down, there are numerous references that point out that those that CAN use magic, --use-- magic. They see it/themselves as highly surperior, and use it whenever they can.

They go on at length in a few places about it.

So the easy answer is, "They didn't make huge huge deals with inter-dimensional arms dealers for plasma rifles because they're mages, not mercs, and use magic above guns."

It's a paradigm thing. At it's core, the CS/Tolkeen war was "Tech vs magic" and if all your magic users are running around like mercs with a few spells it breaks that point/purpose/idea/mental image, what have you.

[Alrik Vas]

I see, elikon. Though I think comparing aprj to plasma is taking two extremes. A village with that low of a budget would probably look into low cost laser weapons instead.

[flatline]

True. But you could also just make bangsticks and powerhead arrows with them instead of firing them from a weapon.
This would, of course, sacrifice the range that a decent gun brings to the table.

I'm sick and haven't looked it up, but if memory serves, range on the Naruni weapons are horrible. My AR15 has better ranges than most of their guns. (But I've had like no sleep and could be mis-remembering and mixing them with something else.)

You remember correctly. Naruni weapons typically have poor ranges. I don't know if this holds true for Wave 2 since I've never seen that book, but it is true of the stuff in Mercs, GMG, and Phase World.

--flatline

[rat_bastard]

Depends on the weapon, the plasma semi automatic rifle has short range but their plasma sniper rifle has fantastic range, Their particle beam weapons are generally noteworthy for their insanely good ranges (for particle beams) and their lasers live right at above average.