Rifts Mercenaries and the giggle factor...

[Alrik Vas]

They went short range, high damage...seems like a good idea for a garrison or security force that will be fighting inside a city. The only problem is even if they win the fight they'll still have burned the place down...

[guardiandashi]

I was actually thinking about it a little bit and I can see where the naruni might have a policy that gets them majorly ticked at to coalition to the point that lost profit for a "vendetta" might make sense for a while.

if Naruni have a standard policy (and I can see them doing this) of "do not mess with our sales reps or else...." then ya that would cause them to bring in force to use against the coalition even if its not economically a great idea. I also agree that their long term best interest would have them going all hearts and minds with some of the alternate, and or small communities, especially if they did something like start a "infiltration campaign" to aid and assist anti coalition groups even if they loose a little money in the short term hoping to recoup it in the long run.

for the "infiltration" campaign if I was the Naruni I would buy up a few "samples" of typical armor used on rifts earth and then go back to the manufacturing centers and depending on cost do 1 of 2 things either start making "knockoff" armor bushman plasticman etc, upgraded to include the force fields, OR if they determined it wasn't as cost effective (to make their knockoffs) come back and buy up a large supply, I am thinking thousands of suits, "upgrade them" and distribute them to their "friends" for cheap prices, then start distributing weapons packages to the villages maybe even giving them discount guns for safe havens and passages and while they are at it help out with "infrastructure upgrades" to their friends towns, it can be little things like a small water treatment system (allowing the town to handle 2x its current population) a small generator pretty much guaranteed electricity etc. note some of this would be absolutely loss in the short term but in the long run ....

[SolCannibal]

Wow, i'm amazed at how far things have gone since my mention of the Naruni.

Real shame no decent reason ever came up for Tolkeen not to buy their stuff in bulk - what is weird considering they HAD great access to transdimensional resources that should make the logistics of getting it all in time much simpler.

Though truth be told, i THINK there's mention in Naruni Wave 2 that the Kingdom of Tolkeen made one such purchase, only it was a little too late for they good and the kingdom fell BEFORE the transfer came through. So they are arming the Tolkeen freedom fighters & retribution squads instead.

The decent reason was that Tolkeen was a kingdom of magic, and thought magic was surperior to technology.

This is.. not just touched on but punched repeatedly in the face if you read up on magic in Rifts earth, mages of different flavors and all. While there is no 'rule' that says a mage couldn't just pick up a plasma injector and mow someone down, there are numerous references that point out that those that CAN use magic, --use-- magic. They see it/themselves as highly surperior, and use it whenever they can.

They go on at length in a few places about it.

So the easy answer is, "They didn't make huge huge deals with inter-dimensional arms dealers for plasma rifles because they're mages, not mercs, and use magic above guns."

It's a paradigm thing. At it's core, the CS/Tolkeen war was "Tech vs magic" and if all your magic users are running around like mercs with a few spells it breaks that point/purpose/idea/mental image, what have you.

There's that certainly, i agree that this point has been made more than once - and yet they, or any other magical nation for that matter, never seems to take the time to create a decent alternative for mass production, or if impossible, at least take the time to make some major stockpiling in magical items for the dark days push comes to shove. Or at least get a bunch of buffed-up possessing entities to throw into their technological adversaries vehicles & giant robots.

That pride for prides sake without any actual planning or effort at competition/demonstrating one's superiority sounds weak to the point of being a cheap excuse sometimes.

[Shark_Force]

The decent reason was that Tolkeen was a kingdom of magic, and thought magic was surperior to technology.

This is.. not just touched on but punched repeatedly in the face if you read up on magic in Rifts earth, mages of different flavors and all. While there is no 'rule' that says a mage couldn't just pick up a plasma injector and mow someone down, there are numerous references that point out that those that CAN use magic, --use-- magic. They see it/themselves as highly surperior, and use it whenever they can.

They go on at length in a few places about it.

So the easy answer is, "They didn't make huge huge deals with inter-dimensional arms dealers for plasma rifles because they're mages, not mercs, and use magic above guns."

It's a paradigm thing. At it's core, the CS/Tolkeen war was "Tech vs magic" and if all your magic users are running around like mercs with a few spells it breaks that point/purpose/idea/mental image, what have you.

except that with only a few exceptions (the biomancer comes to mind), pretty much every man of magic OCC written comes with at least one energy weapon and often also a conventional gun. the ley line walker's standard starting gear includes an air filter and gas mask, technological solutions, not the breathe without air spell. they all start with a flashlight, not a globe of daylight spell. they can start with a hover vehicle, motorcycle, or jetpack, or a TW vehicle (only one of those 4 options is remotely magical). they can take any science skill as well. they're not luddites. the mystic doesn't start with a vehicle (but is noted as often liking small vehicles as well as living animals), and one weapon for every WP they take (which can be anything except heavy weapons). the shifter starts off with a computer, a digital recording device, a laser distancer, and their vehicles of choice are motorcycles, hovercycles, and horses.

that's just out of the main book, but let's stop and think about this for a moment... are their spells that grant movement? yes. yes there are. are their spells that grant the ability to attack enemies? yup, those exist too. are there spells that provide light, or food, or air? yes, there are spells for that.

conclusion: they don't hate technology. in fact, where technology is noticeably superior, it can be presumed that they do, in fact, make use of it (technology general has much faster travel, and weapons, well, we've discussed that a whole bunch already in many different topics, and those are the areas where almost every magic user in existence is noted as using or liking technology).

so no, it makes no sense that tolkeen (which, incidentally, includes a lot of people who cannot use magic at all) would reject technology on the basis that it is technology rather than magic.

[SolCannibal]

In Tolkeen's defense, in Naruni Wave 2 it IS said they made a major purchase with Naruni Enterprises for the war - but, either because they took too long to make the request or those logistics problems we talked about reared their heads, the war was over before it could be sent.

What means there might be some major stockpile of Naruni weapons for the war "forgotten" somewhere in North america, just waiting to be resold or passed along. I this is ALSO implied in Naruni Wave 2.

[Killer Cyborg]

True. But you could also just make bangsticks and powerhead arrows with [Naruni Plasma Cartridges] instead of firing them from a weapon.
This would, of course, sacrifice the range that a decent gun brings to the table.

I'm sick and haven't looked it up, but if memory serves, range on the Naruni weapons are horrible. My AR15 has better ranges than most of their guns. (But I've had like no sleep and could be mis-remembering and mixing them with something else.)

You're not wrong.
A Naruni Derringer has a range of 200'.
A Naruni Plasma Pistol generally has a range of 500'.
A Naruni Plasma Rifle has a range of 1200'

A Short Bow has a range of 340'
A Long Bow has a range of 640'
A Modern Compound Bow has a range or 700'.
And a trained archer may, according to RUE 326, fire at up to +50% the normal range if they drop their strike/disarm bonuses.

Short of a Plasma Rifle or a Plasma Cartridge Machinegun, you probably would be better off using the Naruni Cartridges in a powerhead, range-wise.
Though I'd probably only allow the derringer cartridges to be used that way.

The range of a bang-stick, of course, is melee. That's a lot shorter than even a Naruni pistol.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The decent reason was that Tolkeen was a kingdom of magic, and thought magic was surperior to technology.

This is.. not just touched on but punched repeatedly in the face if you read up on magic in Rifts earth, mages of different flavors and all. While there is no 'rule' that says a mage couldn't just pick up a plasma injector and mow someone down, there are numerous references that point out that those that CAN use magic, --use-- magic. They see it/themselves as highly surperior, and use it whenever they can.

They go on at length in a few places about it.

So the easy answer is, "They didn't make huge huge deals with inter-dimensional arms dealers for plasma rifles because they're mages, not mercs, and use magic above guns."

It's a paradigm thing. At it's core, the CS/Tolkeen war was "Tech vs magic" and if all your magic users are running around like mercs with a few spells it breaks that point/purpose/idea/mental image, what have you.

except that with only a few exceptions (the biomancer comes to mind), pretty much every man of magic OCC written comes with at least one energy weapon and often also a conventional gun. the ley line walker's standard starting gear includes an air filter and gas mask, technological solutions, not the breathe without air spell. they all start with a flashlight, not a globe of daylight spell. they can start with a hover vehicle, motorcycle, or jetpack, or a TW vehicle (only one of those 4 options is remotely magical). they can take any science skill as well. they're not luddites. the mystic doesn't start with a vehicle (but is noted as often liking small vehicles as well as living animals), and one weapon for every WP they take (which can be anything except heavy weapons). the shifter starts off with a computer, a digital recording device, a laser distancer, and their vehicles of choice are motorcycles, hovercycles, and horses.

that's just out of the main book, but let's stop and think about this for a moment... are their spells that grant movement? yes. yes there are. are their spells that grant the ability to attack enemies? yup, those exist too. are there spells that provide light, or food, or air? yes, there are spells for that.

conclusion: they don't hate technology. in fact, where technology is noticeably superior, it can be presumed that they do, in fact, make use of it (technology general has much faster travel, and weapons, well, we've discussed that a whole bunch already in many different topics, and those are the areas where almost every magic user in existence is noted as using or liking technology).

so no, it makes no sense that tolkeen (which, incidentally, includes a lot of people who cannot use magic at all) would reject technology on the basis that it is technology rather than magic.

You're making it a 100% binary condition. Acting like they either can, or can NOT use technology at all. Of course they're going to use some.

It's a very heavy preference type thing. If given the option, as written, the mages of Rifts earth will pick Magic over tech if they can. Does that mean they never go "Oh crap I'm out of PPE" and grab their buddy merc's side arm and fire off a few shots? no. course not. It's just a preference and by aspect feeling 'their way' is superior. If they have a fire ball spell, as written they're going to use the Fire ball spell over the laser pistol. Is this 100% of the time? no. There may be some times when such can get you killed or who knows what, but a heavy preference and the cultural outlook of supremacy.

If given the choice, I'd choose the Dodge Challenger every time, but if the challenger is out of gas or shot up, I'll drive a yugo if I need to. The entire time I'm in the Yugo I'm going to be talking crap about it and how groady it is and how it's NOTHING compaired to my Challenger. How I prefer the Challenger and how I'm slumming driving the Yugo.

But it doesn't mean I'll walk instead of driving the yugo. I'll use it. Sometimes I might even choose it over the challenger. If I'm drving to the ghetto at 3 am, I'm not going to drive my challenger. I'll drive the yugo. (Just like a Mage wouldn't toss a fire ball infront of a CS patrol).

It's that sort of preference we're talking here, but even 'more' so. Mages honestly do look down on tech when compaired to molding the magical energies of the universe. As written, mages and magic sorts in Rifts very much have the out look of "Why use a gun when i can throw a fire ball, or a lighting bolt? Any peon, any illiterate grunt of the CS, can shoot a gun. It takes a powerful will and mystical knowledge to shape the forces of creation and bend them to your wishes!"

Doesn't mean they won't ever use a gun. They will if pressed or if it's needed, or even if it's just.. that day.

But one doesn't forget cultural superiority and out look easily. In Rifts, the magic users possess that. Even if it's not 'arrogent' and just gentle "This way is the old way, the pure way' Type thing.

There's absolutely no rule that a Mage can't ride a hovor cycle or shoot a rifle. It's just not their 'go to way of doing things'

When you're talking about a magical society as a whole, as we are here, then you look at it in general. In general, magic users much prefer magic to tech.

So when looking at it large scale, that's why they didn't make huge giant deals with inter-dimensional arms dealers. Because they rely on magic. Not tech.

[Shark_Force]

eh, no.

they don't need to grab their buddy's gun. they have one. in most cases, they have two or more, and are trained to use them. and very few (if any) start off with TW guns at all.

they don't drive a hovercycle when they have to. every one of those OCCs i listed tells us what vehicles they prefer, and every last OCC discusses that they prefer stuff like hover vehicles and motorcycles. not "will use if they must" or "are capable of using", but *prefer* to use them. now, some individuals will be the ones that prefer horses, or MDC critters to ride. but, in general, the various magic OCCs also tend to prefer various technological means of transportation, and not one of them suggests that they prefer not to use vehicles at all in favour of magic. it is not uncommon for ley line walkers, shifters, and mystics to own and use those vehicles as their *preferred* vehicles.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's absolutely no rule that a Mage can't ride a hovor cycle or shoot a rifle. It's just not their 'go to way of doing things'

When you're talking about a magical society as a whole, as we are here, then you look at it in general. In general, magic users much prefer magic to tech.

So when looking at it large scale, that's why they didn't make huge giant deals with inter-dimensional arms dealers. Because they rely on magic. Not tech.

a) Apparently they DID make the deal, it was just too late, from what several people have said.
So this side argument seems moot.

b) The whole "Mages prefer magic" thing only makes sense in the same way that "readers prefer books" does.
It means that it's something that they like. It doesn't mean that a reader ONLY reads books. It doesn't mean that a reader ALWAYS prefers books. It doesn't mean that readers try to use books to solve all of their problem.
A reader is NOT, when his fan belt is broken, going to try to use a book to replace the broken fan belt.
It's the same way with mages.
They like magic. But that doesn't mean that they ONLY and/or ALWAYS like magic.
And it sure as heck doesn't mean that they'd insist on using magic as a tool when tech is better/faster/cheaper/easier.
They're not going to insist on casting Globe of Daylight for 8 hours straight instead of using lightbulbs.
They're not going to insist on using Fly As The Eagle instead of an airplane if they need to travel coast to coast.
They're not going to use Armor of Ithan instead of tech EBA, not unless they have to.
They're not going to try to use combat spells instead of guns.
They're probably not even going to use TW guns instead of tech guns if it's significantly more inefficient and tactically foolish for them to do so.
Just like somebody who prefers books isn't going to jam one in the engine of his car when it's not the right tool for the job.
Mages like magic, but they're not crazed fetishists who can't think about anything else.

Furthermore, not everybody who fought for Tolkeen was even a mage.
There were, iirc, quite a few mundanes in there, who weren't even psychic, just normal humans/d-bees, whatever.
So even if the mages in Tolkeen WERE crazed fetishists, I hope to God that they'd have the sense to arm their non-magical militia members with weapons that they could actually use.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You guys are looking at it from an out of character perspective, looking in, compairing damage totals and what not.

In character, in the game, in the system, Rifts states straight up the mages _ARE_ like that. That they DO go out of their way to use magic when/if they can, and they DO shun tech, for being inferior. It's straight out of the books. I didn't write them.

People sitting at a gaming table are surely going to weigh ppe cost vs using the Eclip and what not. That's what many do. They forget the flavor text of what they're playing and crunch numbers.

I'm pointing out that the flavor text does indeed say that they prefer magic over other stuff when ever they can. It's not a 100% of the time but it's a strong and prevalent preference.

As for their deal with the naurani, It was very likely to support those mercs and stuff around the edges of the magic users etc that made up the bulk of the Tolkeen forces. And as pointed out, it never happened so.. oh well. lol.

I was just answering the question of why Tolkeen didn't have a Tech vs Tech war with the Cs. Because they are Mages, not mercs. (For the most part).

[Killer Cyborg]

You guys are looking at it from an out of character perspective, looking in, compairing damage totals and what not.

In-character, I'm betting that a mage can tell the difference between depleting his own PPE for minor damage compared to using an E-Clip to inflict major damage.

In character, in the game, in the system, Rifts states straight up the mages _ARE_ like that.

No, they're not.
Again, mages all start with tech equipment in their starting gear.
Precious few mages start off with ANY magical equipment, and those that do start with some, start with precious few.

Edit:
And although I've pointed it out before in this kind of conversation, I'll point it out again:
(Emphasis added, because it apparently cannot be added enough.)
RUE 188
It is important to point out that unlike the CS who completely rejects magic in all of its forms, few practitioners of magic dismiss technology out of hand. While it is true most rely heavily on their magic powers and natural abilities, most human and D-Bee sorcerers also use technology. Energy weapons, vibro-blades, portable computers, recorders, cameras, robot medical systems, language translators, radio communicators, optic systems (binoculars, etc.), partial MDC body armor, light vehicles, air filters, and goggles are all commonly part of the magic characters' gear and equipment.
Bionics, with the exception of select Bio-Systems in case of serious injury, cybernetic implants, and teh wearing of environmental body armor (except for disguise) are avoided like the plague, but only because they interfere with spell casting and the use of magic.

and

The Exception to the welcomed use of technology comes from supernatural beings (demons and gods) and creatures of magic...

The CS are irrational. Their fear drives them into a state of extreme prejudice, causing them to reject magic.
But mages, as a rule, are not irrational.
They have no qualms about using technology.
They, in fact, "WELCOME" the use of technology.

[SolCannibal]

At least one major Tolkeen warlord, Corin Scard, is a completely normal Headhunter in fact.

As an aside, the "magic is SUPERIOR" is more of a FoM dogma/fetish than something of the common magician. Techno-wizardry in North America was born of a "catch-as-catch-can" spirit all too common to the post-apocalyptic scenario as a whole.

[Killer Cyborg]

Being biased for magic over technology, or vice versa, is generally, simply put, insane.
Which makes sense for extremists like the CS.

But for most people, it makes about the same level of sense as discriminating against "mechanics" in favor of "electronics," or some other arbitrary demarcation of form instead of function.
Like "all electricians must drive electric cars, because they like electricity!" or "All mechanics must use gears and pulleys to power their home, since electricity is seen as inferior to mechanics!" or "Plumbers obviously use computers based on fluidics instead of electronics, because everybody must despise or spurn everything not directly tied to their occupation, regardless of applicability or utility."

[SolCannibal]

As a little silly aside, firts time i read "and the giggle factor", what crossed my mind was something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b248cANtWBo

[kaid]

While they may prefer magic solutions where available it is pretty clear from the equipment lists and text that the majority of mages have no major issue with tech and are happy to use it where available. Their starting gear lists almost never contain even any TW items just pure tech goods.

The only types of casters I can think of off the top of my head that seriously dislike and will not use tech weapons are pretty much the native american traditional warrior/shaman OCC's they start with magic fetishes to replace any need for tech weapons and typically shun even riding in tech vehicles.

Biomancers frankly given the biomancer weapons/armor/warmounts there really is no reason they would ever bother with tech and rightfully look down on it and disdain its use. Even the jungle elves more primative version they are more than capable of making highly effective armor and melee/ranged weapons and so feel no need to use tech nor any lack from not using it.

In theory ecowizards probably could be put into this category but they are not so much disdainful of tech as in tech is simply so rare where they come from there is little to no chance to acquire it so they made a new form of magic to supplement their tribes needs.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mages might carry a sidearm, a rifle, a vibro knife, wear MDC armor and ride a hovercycle through the woods, but whereas a tech OCC will hop on that same hovercycle to go get a slurpee, burger or gallon of milk, the mage will instead cast a spell to travel that distance, or simply conjure it out of thin air.

I disagree. There's nothing to indicate that mages waste their PPE on minor mundane activities as a rule.

And when a fight breaks out, that same mage will likely Firebolt a threat rather than unsling the nearly forgotten rifle, because that is their first instinct more often than not.

Nope. Otherwise, they wouldn't all carry guns as a rule.
A mage with a gun and the WP to use it is just as good as most cops, soldiers, hunters, or anybody else with the same weapon and training, and it's just as much a part of their reflexes to use it when appropriate.
Wasting magic is NOT something that mages would have as an instinct.

If you don’t want to play it that way, fine, just recognize that you’re playing a PC, and the more often than not, the NPC response will more closely follow their OCCs established approach to any given situation. There is after all a reason that the word stereotype exists, correct?

Correct.
But you have the wrong stereotype in your head for how mages operate.
If you want to play mages as people who try to use magic all the time, for everything, that's your option. But it's not the norm.

[Killer Cyborg]

Feel free to cite the text that you believe supports that view.

[Shark_Force]

preferring to use magic to solve problems doesn't mean they're idiots about using magic to solve a problem.

furthermore, there's this crazy assumption that a mage will see someone attacking them, and their solution will be to use damage at all.

magic net ends a fight immediately if it works. fire bolt means you've slightly damaged someone who can out-damage you. it is not a solution, it's a death sentence for yourself. you have just wasted an action and PPE, both of which are critical resources for a spellcaster. if the enemy isn't in range of magic net, they probably also aren't in range of a fire bolt anyways, so using fire bolt is still not an option. instead, they'll just solve the problem some other way. someone is shooting you with a laser? cast impervious to energy. that solves the problem, casting fire bolt does not. someone is circling above you and raining down railgun slugs on you? cast a spell that lets you hide (such as chameleon, invisibility, etc). fire bolt won't deal with a SAMAS, but using a spell to hide and avoid the fight entirely might. you don't need to kill it, unless that's your specific goal (and if that is your goal, you probably have plans that don't involve the SAMAS fighting back (or at least, not very effectively)... for example, you might ambush the pilot while he's not in armour, or you might have a plan to let you get close enough to use a spell to disable the SAMAS, or something like that).

in the event that damage is the best option available, a smart mage will use damage... and that's why they carry around guns. any adventuring mage is always at risk of needing all of their PPE to solve problems. there is never a time when it is safe to blow everything on damaging spells, because you need your PPE to solve problems, and you have no guarantee that there will be only one problem per day (in fact, if anything it's probably more likely to have multiple problems per day than it is to only have one). now, there are better damaging spells and worse damaging spells, and sometimes a very efficient damaging spell might get used... but in general, you're looking at poor range, and poor damage relative to just pulling out a gun. if you don't have a better option than damage, it is very likely that you aren't in range for your damaging spells anyways.

and the kind of mage that can afford to risk blowing all their PPE because they're safe all the time by definition has the least need for damaging magic at all.

damage-dealing with spells is a bad idea. i know that, you know that, and the spellcasters in the setting know that. sure, they solve problems with magic by preference. and by preference, they will use the *good* magic solutions well before they will use the *bad* magic solutions, and for the most part if the good magic solutions are not an option then the bad ones aren't an option either.

it's always a good idea to know a few damaging spells. sometimes you'll encounter something that simply isn't worth the resources of either using your gun, or using your more expensive spells. that's why a spell like throwing stones is such a great thing... it costs very few PPE, has respectable range, and is enough to deal with minor threats. against anything big enough to need bigger damage, however, there are better solutions. in fact, usually there will actually be several better solutions, if not more.

[Killer Cyborg]

preferring to use magic to solve problems doesn't mean they're idiots about using magic to solve a problem.

furthermore, there's this crazy assumption that a mage will see someone attacking them, and their solution will be to use damage at all.

Yup.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's a psychological bent, not a logical one, and most people live their life that way too. Unless you are someone who consciously makes a choice to exert themselves, you will take the elevator rather than the stairs, you will hop in your car rather than walk to the supermarket, and you will use the at hand convenience rather than going out of your way to spend money on a gadget. For a mage, their magic IS the at hand convenience, and at the same time, it is a mark of prestige that sets them apart. It isn't the mages fault that the Palladium system, and specifically Rifts and other MDC settings, make their efforts in this area considerably less efficient or in many cases less effective really. And it certainly has nothing at all to do with their equipment listing either.

I'd use the same analogy to shoot down your view of things.
Spending PPE/ISP is exertion. Pushing a button isn't.
Casting Fly As The Eagle to get to the 12th floor of a building is exertion.
Taking the elevator is not.

it is what the books present as normal amongst mages

I strongly disagree.

while you might recognize that tech is better in many ways than magic, most mages aren't trained like that.

RUE 116
Ley Line Walker
OCC Skills include:
Pilot (one of choice)

OCC Related Skills:
"Two must be selected from the science category and one from technical."
Every single Line Walker on the planet is trained in at least two areas of science, and one technical area.

And look at their other options:
Communications: Radio Basic
Medical: First Aid or Paramedic
Pilot: Any
Pilot Related: Any
Rogue: Any
Science: Any (+10%)
Technical: Any
WP: Any

Being trained in a skill means that the skill is part of you, it's how you react to certain situations.
A mage who's trained in martial arts isn't going to have to stop to think about whether he want's to parry an incoming punch- he'll just do it. Just like any other martial artist.

All else being equal:
A mage who's trained to use a radio isn't any more likely to instinctively use a Magic Pigeon when he's got a radio at hand.
A mage who's trained as a paramedic isn't going to cast Heal Wounds where a bandaid and an aspirin will do.
A mage who's trained to ride a skycycle or use a jetpack isn't going to cast Fly As An Eagle unless he needs to.
A mage who's trained in Weapons Systems isn't going to lean out the window and try to cast a spell instead of manning the gun turret right next to him.
A mage who's a computer hacker isn't going to cast divination to find information when 10 seconds on the computer he carries will tell him more.
A mage who's trained in the use of a firearm is going to use that firearm just as instinctively as he'll cast a spell.
Because that's what training does.

[kaid]

I would think that all of the cost calculations for the Naruni versus NG APRJ rounds debate are based on their relative costs being static to the books. We know NG is short selling their stuff to undermine the Naruni as much as possible, and that the scarcity of Naruni gear means their cost is likely to go up several multiples due to low availability.

What we don’t know is if Naruni is willing to suck it up and undercut NG similarly in a hostile selling environment on what is essentially a low profit backwater of a world where the single largest advantage, the Rifts themselves, are likely to draw the ire of Splynncryth if they get too pushy about it. It won’t lead to a war, no, but do they want to tick off such an influential figure like that?

More than that, it’s pretty likely that even the Black Market isn’t likely to welcome them with open arms, since all the trade they foster is outside of the Market’s normal reach, and therefore, they normally won’t get a cut. I would actually expect the Naruni to accept the problems inherent in Rifts Earth and bail openly, while covertly supplying the Market with their ammunition and a slew of weapons that are indistinguishable from those same weapons mentioned above. AKs, ARs, Saigas, Remington/Winchester shotguns, etc.

Lastly, the actual cost of pump rounds and Wilk’s laser rounds is entirely out of scale here. Even if they are both rare, being x10 the cost of Naruni for ½ to a ¼ of the effect makes zero sense at all!

Actually it does make some sense. Naruni is a three glaxies manufacturer that has PLANETS devoted to the manufacturing of goods. Entire worlds doing nothing more than making their stuff. That plus they have access to higher end nano factories and higher tech base all around means all things being equal naruni stuff should cost much less than anything made on earth. The only reason it likely costs as much as they do is naruni want a bigger profit margin.

The problem with naruni goods on rifts earth is due to the hostility in north america of some of the biggest players naruni really cannot make the fullest use of their normal take over the market tactics. Any big open store is pretty much a giant bullseye for CS strikes. It talks about them having a manufacturing plant on earth but how much this is capable of generating and how much it needs to hide limits how much stock the naruni can get to the market. No matter how much they want to undercut the market they are pretty much forced to stick to really shady/risky deals or tiny outposts that move frequently and the black market.

As good as naruni gear is and having just relooked at the wave 2 stuff it really is excellent gear it has enough drawbacks to make people shy away from it. Ammunition dependent weapons purchased from a dealer who is difficult to find and may or may not have much supply at any given moment if you do find them is specialty equipment at best. Their body armors are excellent but given their alien tech and alien materials it is questionable how well any earth born operator is going to be able to repair those in the field.

Really the best things they offer are their force field. It is the one part of the market where there is a huge demand for them because there is zero local production. You can find plenty of local guns and armor but you cannot buy force fields from the NG or CS or triax. You also typically won't have to worry about trying to repair the force fields as most of the damage is going to be coming off the shield and not the actual shield generating unit.

[Shark_Force]

even the force field market has *some* competition.

for starters, a full 30% of all humans are psychic. which means they can use TW gear. and the same group of humans that won't use TW gear because it's magic are the humans that won't use naruni gear because it's alien.

but not only are 30% of all humans in general psychic, if you look at the various adventuring OCCs, there's a much higher percentage of psychics and people that can use magic than normal amongst adventurers, who are some of the most likely to invest in force fields to begin with. also lets not forget that many d-bees and aliens will also have either psychic or magic powers in many cases.

and not only that, but even the non-psychic, non-mage part of the population can use special TW equipment made specifically for them. they may need to rely on some external source of power, but if a TW device can be made to store PPE then all you need is a friendly psychic to recharge it (or you can go with the somewhat more painful life source option). when 30% of the population are psychic, that means that 30% of the people you meet are potentially able to recharge a TW device, so places capable of recharging TW force fields are actually common and plentiful.

now, granted TW force fields aren't exactly cheap... but then, neither are naruni force fields.

[SolCannibal]

even the force field market has *some* competition.

for starters, a full 30% of all humans are psychic. which means they can use TW gear. and the same group of humans that won't use TW gear because it's magic are the humans that won't use naruni gear because it's alien.

but not only are 30% of all humans in general psychic, if you look at the various adventuring OCCs, there's a much higher percentage of psychics and people that can use magic than normal amongst adventurers, who are some of the most likely to invest in force fields to begin with. also lets not forget that many d-bees and aliens will also have either psychic or magic powers in many cases.

Actually it's 25% from what i remember (unless it was changed in RUE) and - afaik - it has always been dubious if that percentage of psionics in the core book is for all humans or all human adventurers, what would make them a much smaller fraction of the whole.

Only place i remember ever seeing a 30% chance of psionics is specifically for the Operator OCC.

Just my two cents - doesn't turn your point upside down or somesuch but thought it was worth bringing up.

[Alrik Vas]

And the giggle factor continues.

I want Naruni to get into rail guns and find a way to charge 30 credits per round on that too.

[Killer Cyborg]

And if expending PPE or ISP was an exertion, I would agree. However I had it pointed out to me once that it never says anywhere that there are fatigue aspects to doing this.

What do you think PPE and ISP are?
They're a measurement of energy levels.
You use energy, you lose energy.
You use enough energy, you've exhausted that source.

There's nothing in the books that says it's fatiguing to lose HP either, but that doesn't mean that it's not.
It's just that PPE/ISP are a different kind of fatigue.
(Although PPE is based partially on Physical Endurance for mages)

Heck, ISP stands for "Inner Strength Points."
Do you think it feels good to run out of "inner Strength?"
PPE is Potential Psychic Energy.
Do you think it feels good to run out of Energy?

Nor are there any penalties listed

No penalties listed for low HP either. No kind of fatigue mentioned for being low on HP.
BUT it's clear that if you're low on HP, you're not feeling your best.

nor does running out of either mean you are exhausted in any way.

It means that you've exhausted that particular kind of energy.

So for a potential mage or psi, burning this readily self replacing resource isn’t an exertion in any way that matters, presuming you are in a position where you are willing to turn to a convenience rather than feeling a need to conserve your power reserve.

Meaning that if it's more convenient to use a spell than to use other methods, and if you don't want to waste energy, then you'll use a spell.
Which is what I've said.
It's just a matter of when those two IFs apply.

So while pushing that button isn’t taxing you in any significant way, in a setting where there isn’t an elevator or bus to be had, you are going to have to choose another option. That means walking up and down stairs, riding a bike/horse/car/whatever you wish to and from a store, and returning home. A mage with the power would simply shrug, cast that spell, and go get what he wants, presuming he doesn’t have a better way of getting hold of it without leaving his abode. That built in convenience is what I am talking about, and most of them are encouraged into this attitude.

Not sure what your point is there.
By removing elevators from the equation, you're removing the comparison.

And I will once again point out that I understand they aren’t tech –phobic. Their signature armor includes tinted goggles, air filtration, and similar stuff by apparent default. And in that case, it’s cheap and easy to rely on them to keep glare and dust out. But that same armor needs to be repaired when it’s damaged, when a defensive spell as a reaction prevents a great deal of that problem. So basically, do they use tech? Yes, but the background information seems to indicate that that isn’t their go to under most circumstances.

Which background information?
I'd say that using an air filter, goggles, armor, etc. etc. as part of your daily gear means that tech IS part of your go-to in most circumstances.
Your daily gear is what you use every day.

I was going to rebute your specific examples, but I get the impression sometimes that I stray heavily into TL;DR territory, so I won’t.

Okay.

[Daniel Stoker]

Heck, ISP stands for "Inner Strength Points."
Do you think it feels good to run out of "inner Strength?"
PPE is Potential Psychic Energy.
Do you think it feels good to run out of Energy?

Not to turn your words against you, but what text in the books actually supports that view? I agree it makes sense, but not sure the rules we have actually state that. (And if this is just your view and I'm missing that just ignore this.)


Daniel Stoker

[Shark_Force]

you have to dig pretty deep to find rules that actually state that physical activity tires you out, that anyone actually needs sleep at all (apart from people who need to recover PPE/ISP), or that you need to eat.

the simple fact of the matter is that both forms of energy are replenished by rest. while this doesn't come right out and hit you over the head while screaming "it tires you out" or anything like that, it's fairly heavily implied that a form of energy which is recovered by rest is tiring you out (hence why you need rest or sleep rather than simply time or only meditation working).

[Nightmask]

you have to dig pretty deep to find rules that actually state that physical activity tires you out, that anyone actually needs sleep at all (apart from people who need to recover PPE/ISP), or that you need to eat.

the simple fact of the matter is that both forms of energy are replenished by rest. while this doesn't come right out and hit you over the head while screaming "it tires you out" or anything like that, it's fairly heavily implied that a form of energy which is recovered by rest is tiring you out (hence why you need rest or sleep rather than simply time or only meditation working).

Except PPE at least you can recover without making any effort to rest or sleep, you can not just quick recharge yourself from a Ley Line or Nexus you can even super-charge yourself to a massive degree (depending on your reading of things, to either 3 or 4 times your base PPE). So one can't really say that for PPE at least that it qualifies as something tiring since you don't require rest to restore it, it's just the simplest way and you can't over-charge that way either and nothing suggests that mages feel super-charged or extra energetic from all that excess PPE either.

[SolCannibal]

you have to dig pretty deep to find rules that actually state that physical activity tires you out, that anyone actually needs sleep at all (apart from people who need to recover PPE/ISP), or that you need to eat.

the simple fact of the matter is that both forms of energy are replenished by rest. while this doesn't come right out and hit you over the head while screaming "it tires you out" or anything like that, it's fairly heavily implied that a form of energy which is recovered by rest is tiring you out (hence why you need rest or sleep rather than simply time or only meditation working).

Except PPE at least you can recover without making any effort to rest or sleep, you can not just quick recharge yourself from a Ley Line or Nexus you can even super-charge yourself to a massive degree (depending on your reading of things, to either 3 or 4 times your base PPE). So one can't really say that for PPE at least that it qualifies as something tiring since you don't require rest to restore it, it's just the simplest way and you can't over-charge that way either and nothing suggests that mages feel super-charged or extra energetic from all that excess PPE either.

IF you have a ley line or nexus close by - that is not true everywhere, specially not outside Rifts Earth, should be said.

[Nightmask]

you have to dig pretty deep to find rules that actually state that physical activity tires you out, that anyone actually needs sleep at all (apart from people who need to recover PPE/ISP), or that you need to eat.

the simple fact of the matter is that both forms of energy are replenished by rest. while this doesn't come right out and hit you over the head while screaming "it tires you out" or anything like that, it's fairly heavily implied that a form of energy which is recovered by rest is tiring you out (hence why you need rest or sleep rather than simply time or only meditation working).

Except PPE at least you can recover without making any effort to rest or sleep, you can not just quick recharge yourself from a Ley Line or Nexus you can even super-charge yourself to a massive degree (depending on your reading of things, to either 3 or 4 times your base PPE). So one can't really say that for PPE at least that it qualifies as something tiring since you don't require rest to restore it, it's just the simplest way and you can't over-charge that way either and nothing suggests that mages feel super-charged or extra energetic from all that excess PPE either.

IF you have a ley line or nexus close by - that is not true everywhere, specially not outside Rifts Earth, should be said.

Except my point was regarding how one can't really consider PPE recovery being like you've exhausted yourself and needing to rest or sleep to recover like with SDC or HP since mages can replenish their PPE from other sources including Talismans built for that. You can hardly go and store SDC or HP in devices to recover anytime you need them in comparison. You recover PPE even if you're starving and otherwise in physically exhausted and needy shape, so you can sleep and recharge PPE in spite of not recovering anything physically.

[Shark_Force]

ley lines don't restore your PPE. they let you tap into an external source. if i am too tired to pick up an object, and i then ask a friend for help in lifting that object, i have not become any less tired. i have simply tapped into an external (to me) source of energy.

[Nightmask]

ley lines don't restore your PPE. they let you tap into an external source. if i am too tired to pick up an object, and i then ask a friend for help in lifting that object, i have not become any less tired. i have simply tapped into an external (to me) source of energy.

Unless they changed something somewhere I've seen nothing that says that you don't/can't restore your used up PPE by simply drawing it from a Ley Line or Nexus Point to replace what you've used, and again there's nothing that suggests you actually feel tired or otherwise impaired due to using up some or all of your PPE or ISP, you simply run out and those things that require it cease to be available until you've recovered enough to make them available again. The only place I can remember that might have such issues was Beyond the Supernatural but it was extremely skewed against mages and psychics (such as actually having long-term exposure to ley lines and nexus points prove detrimental to health and sanity).

[Killer Cyborg]

Heck, ISP stands for "Inner Strength Points."
Do you think it feels good to run out of "inner Strength?"
PPE is Potential Psychic Energy.
Do you think it feels good to run out of Energy?

Not to turn your words against you, but what text in the books actually supports that view? I agree it makes sense, but not sure the rules we have actually state that. (And if this is just your view and I'm missing that just ignore this.)

Daniel Stoker

My view is that using PPE is an expenditure of energy.
PPE is energy.
Using it is expending it.

[Killer Cyborg]

you have to dig pretty deep to find rules that actually state that physical activity tires you out, that anyone actually needs sleep at all (apart from people who need to recover PPE/ISP), or that you need to eat.

the simple fact of the matter is that both forms of energy are replenished by rest. while this doesn't come right out and hit you over the head while screaming "it tires you out" or anything like that, it's fairly heavily implied that a form of energy which is recovered by rest is tiring you out (hence why you need rest or sleep rather than simply time or only meditation working).

Pretty much.

[Shark_Force]

ley lines don't restore your PPE. they let you tap into an external source. if i am too tired to pick up an object, and i then ask a friend for help in lifting that object, i have not become any less tired. i have simply tapped into an external (to me) source of energy.

Unless they changed something somewhere I've seen nothing that says that you don't/can't restore your used up PPE by simply drawing it from a Ley Line or Nexus Point to replace what you've used, and again there's nothing that suggests you actually feel tired or otherwise impaired due to using up some or all of your PPE or ISP, you simply run out and those things that require it cease to be available until you've recovered enough to make them available again. The only place I can remember that might have such issues was Beyond the Supernatural but it was extremely skewed against mages and psychics (such as actually having long-term exposure to ley lines and nexus points prove detrimental to health and sanity).

rules are permissive, not restrictive (nobody wants a 10,000 page document detailing everything you can't do, and it wouldn't be a complete list anyways). there are rules for drawing energy from ley lines. they discuss casting spells using ley line energy. they don't discuss using it to replenish your reserves, merely stating that *while you are on the ley line* you can access the energy on the ley line. the rules even discuss recovering your PPE, and they never say "or stand on a ley line for a minute" anywhere. rather, it mentions how much you can recover by resting or meditating. because those are the ways you recover personal PPE that you spend.

having to have rules that tell us only what we can't do, and assuming we can do anything that isn't on this restricted list, is undesirable and unreasonable. nobody wants it, nobody is even capable of giving it to us if for some insane reason we did want it, and it's a terrible way to try and interpret the rules. the rules don't say that your average human rogue scholar can't be 500 feet tall, made out of stone (with hundreds of thousand of MDC), and breathe lightning bolts that deal 5d6x100 mega-damage out to a 100 mile range with pinpoint accuracy either, and yet i'm fairly confident most would agree that the rules are not intended to be interpreted as allowing such on the basis that they don't disallow it explicitly.

[Killer Cyborg]

you have to dig pretty deep to find rules that actually state that physical activity tires you out, that anyone actually needs sleep at all (apart from people who need to recover PPE/ISP), or that you need to eat.

the simple fact of the matter is that both forms of energy are replenished by rest. while this doesn't come right out and hit you over the head while screaming "it tires you out" or anything like that, it's fairly heavily implied that a form of energy which is recovered by rest is tiring you out (hence why you need rest or sleep rather than simply time or only meditation working).

Except PPE at least you can recover without making any effort to rest or sleep, you can not just quick recharge yourself from a Ley Line or Nexus you can even super-charge yourself to a massive degree (depending on your reading of things, to either 3 or 4 times your base PPE). So one can't really say that for PPE at least that it qualifies as something tiring since you don't require rest to restore it, it's just the simplest way and you can't over-charge that way either and nothing suggests that mages feel super-charged or extra energetic from all that excess PPE either.

Laying in a stone pyramid will "completely remove stress and fatigue."
Which would mean that you don't have to rest to recover from normal fatigue either.
Which, using your argument, would mean that "one can't really say that normal fatigue is something that is really tiring."

[Nightmask]

ley lines don't restore your PPE. they let you tap into an external source. if i am too tired to pick up an object, and i then ask a friend for help in lifting that object, i have not become any less tired. i have simply tapped into an external (to me) source of energy.

Unless they changed something somewhere I've seen nothing that says that you don't/can't restore your used up PPE by simply drawing it from a Ley Line or Nexus Point to replace what you've used, and again there's nothing that suggests you actually feel tired or otherwise impaired due to using up some or all of your PPE or ISP, you simply run out and those things that require it cease to be available until you've recovered enough to make them available again. The only place I can remember that might have such issues was Beyond the Supernatural but it was extremely skewed against mages and psychics (such as actually having long-term exposure to ley lines and nexus points prove detrimental to health and sanity).

rules are permissive, not restrictive (nobody wants a 10,000 page document detailing everything you can't do, and it wouldn't be a complete list anyways). there are rules for drawing energy from ley lines. they discuss casting spells using ley line energy. they don't discuss using it to replenish your reserves, merely stating that *while you are on the ley line* you can access the energy on the ley line. the rules even discuss recovering your PPE, and they never say "or stand on a ley line for a minute" anywhere. rather, it mentions how much you can recover by resting or meditating. because those are the ways you recover personal PPE that you spend.

having to have rules that tell us only what we can't do, and assuming we can do anything that isn't on this restricted list, is undesirable and unreasonable. nobody wants it, nobody is even capable of giving it to us if for some insane reason we did want it, and it's a terrible way to try and interpret the rules. the rules don't say that your average human rogue scholar can't be 500 feet tall, made out of stone (with hundreds of thousand of MDC), and breathe lightning bolts that deal 5d6x100 mega-damage out to a 100 mile range with pinpoint accuracy either, and yet i'm fairly confident most would agree that the rules are not intended to be interpreted as allowing such on the basis that they don't disallow it explicitly.

Given the rules say you can absorb up to triple your base PPE (which would require you to explicitly be putting back anything you've used prior to starting and then some) and nothing about any of that PPE just vanishing because 'well you didn't get it back from rest or sleep' trying to make it out that it somehow does because the rules don't explicitly say it doesn't just isn't going to prove a successful argument. It would make zero sense that you can absorb all that extra PPE to have more than your maximum but can't simply restore what you've already used up nor would it make sense that somehow any of that 'filler' PPE would vanish and somehow only PPE from rest or sleep would remain, something that's clearly not stated anywhere in the rules and would be without foundation to try and argue.

[SolCannibal]

you have to dig pretty deep to find rules that actually state that physical activity tires you out, that anyone actually needs sleep at all (apart from people who need to recover PPE/ISP), or that you need to eat.

the simple fact of the matter is that both forms of energy are replenished by rest. while this doesn't come right out and hit you over the head while screaming "it tires you out" or anything like that, it's fairly heavily implied that a form of energy which is recovered by rest is tiring you out (hence why you need rest or sleep rather than simply time or only meditation working).

Except PPE at least you can recover without making any effort to rest or sleep, you can not just quick recharge yourself from a Ley Line or Nexus you can even super-charge yourself to a massive degree (depending on your reading of things, to either 3 or 4 times your base PPE). So one can't really say that for PPE at least that it qualifies as something tiring since you don't require rest to restore it, it's just the simplest way and you can't over-charge that way either and nothing suggests that mages feel super-charged or extra energetic from all that excess PPE either.

IF you have a ley line or nexus close by - that is not true everywhere, specially not outside Rifts Earth, should be said.

Except my point was regarding how one can't really consider PPE recovery being like you've exhausted yourself and needing to rest or sleep to recover like with SDC or HP since mages can replenish their PPE from other sources including Talismans built for that. You can hardly go and store SDC or HP in devices to recover anytime you need them in comparison.

But you do have healing magic AND technology in the books among other stuff, no?

[Killer Cyborg]

I agree that the indication is that you can replenish your personal PPE reserves from ley lines.

[flatline]

I agree that the indication is that you can replenish your personal PPE reserves from ley lines.

We have certainly always played it thusly. Every group I've played with has interpreted things that way, even going back to BtS.

--flatline

[Daniel Stoker]

Heck, ISP stands for "Inner Strength Points."
Do you think it feels good to run out of "inner Strength?"
PPE is Potential Psychic Energy.
Do you think it feels good to run out of Energy?

Not to turn your words against you, but what text in the books actually supports that view? I agree it makes sense, but not sure the rules we have actually state that. (And if this is just your view and I'm missing that just ignore this.)

My view is that using PPE is an expenditure of energy.
PPE is energy.
Using it is expending it.

Yes but you also seem to have the view that using it up doesn't feel good and that was what I was looking for some support in the books for.


Daniel Stoker

[Killer Cyborg]

Heck, ISP stands for "Inner Strength Points."
Do you think it feels good to run out of "inner Strength?"
PPE is Potential Psychic Energy.
Do you think it feels good to run out of Energy?

Not to turn your words against you, but what text in the books actually supports that view? I agree it makes sense, but not sure the rules we have actually state that. (And if this is just your view and I'm missing that just ignore this.)

My view is that using PPE is an expenditure of energy.
PPE is energy.
Using it is expending it.

Yes but you also seem to have the view that using it up doesn't feel good and that was what I was looking for some support in the books for.

Daniel Stoker

Not that it "doesn't feel good," just that it was an exertion.
There are all kinds of exertions that can feel good.
But feeling good doesn't mean that you don't also feel a bit drained.

[Daniel Stoker]

Ok, is there a book portion that says you feel drained? And what if anything do you think that drained feeling does to the character?


Daniel Stoker

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok, is there a book portion that says you feel drained?

Not that I know of.
As has been pointed out, though, there's a lot of stuff that the books don't specify makes you feel drained, even though we know that it does.

And what if anything do you think that drained feeling does to the character?

Well, there's indication that it makes you feel a need to rest or meditate.
I imagine that it just kind of makes you feel a bit tired, probably more a mental kind of tiredness than physical, like when you've concentrated on too much and need to clear your head.

[Tor]

I wonder if they have any Air Castle Bombers left now?

You mean assuming the big Conqueror battle occurred? Or are we assuming the CS targetted them during Tolkeen?

[Daniel Stoker]

Not that I know of.
As has been pointed out, though, there's a lot of stuff that the books don't specify makes you feel drained, even though we know that it does.

Ok, that works I guess though that leaves it as supposition.

Well, there's indication that it makes you feel a need to rest or meditate.
I imagine that it just kind of makes you feel a bit tired, probably more a mental kind of tiredness than physical, like when you've concentrated on too much and need to clear your head.

What indication is that? You need to rest or meditate to get the PPE or ISP back but I don't see where it would you feel a need just that you would want to. But do you think there are any actual effects stat or bonus/negative wise?


Daniel Stoker

[Killer Cyborg]

Not that I know of.
As has been pointed out, though, there's a lot of stuff that the books don't specify makes you feel drained, even though we know that it does.

Ok, that works I guess though that leaves it as supposition.

The point is not that using PPE necessarily leaves you feeling drained, but that it likely does.
More specifically, that it is not warranted to assume that casting spells is an effortless act which takes no toll.

Since using PPE does in fact drain the caster of energy, it would be odd to assume that the caster would not feel drained to some degree as a result, unless one assumes that a caster cannot feel how much PPE he/she has.

Well, there's indication that it makes you feel a need to rest or meditate.
I imagine that it just kind of makes you feel a bit tired, probably more a mental kind of tiredness than physical, like when you've concentrated on too much and need to clear your head.

What indication is that? You need to rest or meditate to get the PPE or ISP back but I don't see where it would you feel a need just that you would want to. But do you think there are any actual effects stat or bonus/negative wise.
Daniel Stoker

Can you rest when you are already rested?

[Daniel Stoker]

The point is not that using PPE necessarily leaves you feeling drained, but that it likely does.
More specifically, that it is not warranted to assume that casting spells is an effortless act which takes no toll.

Since using PPE does in fact drain the caster of energy, it would be odd to assume that the caster would not feel drained to some degree as a result, unless one assumes that a caster cannot feel how much PPE he/she has.

It doesn't seem that odd to me, but I've assumed that since stuff like 'resist fatigue' make no mention of helping with that and that they didn't mention it in he rules or fluff text it probably isn't the case. I can see why you'd see it that way though.

Can you rest when you are already rested?

No? But still not sure where it indicates they feel a need to rest, just that if you want to rebuild your PPE you need to meditate or rest.


Daniel Stoker

[Shorty Lickens]

Braddocks company is supposed to be better armed than average. So it makes sense within the context of the game.

And the variety of equipment choices also reflect personal preference, and perhaps equipping oneself for the job at hand. Light armor and a single weapon make more sense for scouting duty than loads of excess gear.

[Killer Cyborg]

The point is not that using PPE necessarily leaves you feeling drained, but that it likely does.
More specifically, that it is not warranted to assume that casting spells is an effortless act which takes no toll.

Since using PPE does in fact drain the caster of energy, it would be odd to assume that the caster would not feel drained to some degree as a result, unless one assumes that a caster cannot feel how much PPE he/she has.

It doesn't seem that odd to me, but I've assumed that since stuff like 'resist fatigue' make no mention of helping with that and that they didn't mention it in he rules or fluff text it probably isn't the case. I can see why you'd see it that way though.

There are different kinds of fatigue.
Resist Fatigue only helps with certain physical kinds.

Can you rest when you are already rested?

No? But still not sure where it indicates they feel a need to rest, just that if you want to rebuild your PPE you need to meditate or rest.
Daniel Stoker

If you need to rest in order to recover your PPE, then you need to rest to recover your energy.
It's a truism, really.