Full Conversion Borgs vs Power Armor

[rat_bastard]

Okay I read that naruni wave 2 ship that thing is about as much power armor as it is cyborg which is to say not really but kinda if you squint really hard and have a really iffy definition of power armor or cyborgs.

The pilot of the ship enters the pilot compartment like any normal ship or power armor but then once inside basically gets fused with it so sort of cyborg but basically once fused the human mind is not in direct control of the vessel. The AI is the primary control of the ship and the human gestalt with it basically allows the AI to play hunches and make choices on friend or foe. So is it cybernetic yes but is it a cyborg that is a trickier question. I would argue that it is more of a bio organic enhanced AI than it is a cyborg.

Being controlled by the AI (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) is a bit of a trademark of Naruni though. At the end of the day, the ship is fused to a person; that - technology and biology fused together - is the definition of cyborg. Otherwise it would be a ship with a pilot, correct?

Although technically the one skill of human that is retained is piloting so in theory they are the pilot. This bleeds into the lines with things like the demon power armors that eventually fuse with the pilot. Are those power armors or are they borgs or something else. Again its a situation where the human no longer has full or even primary control and is permanently melded with their armor.

Really the naruni ship could be as easily argued that it is a power armor as it could a cyborg. One perfectly healthy person walks into the piloting compartment of the vessel at which point the vessel is augmenting and armoring their body. Does the fact they cannot leave mean its not power armor? There are other examples of power armor that has direct mind interfacing if you pilot one of those does that make you a cyborg? There definitely are some edge cases that are very murky waters definition wise.

It in no way is power armor, its a cyborg piloted hover tank. Power armor does not even come close to defining it.

[eliakon]

Its not really a borg
Its a Robot weapon that has a former pilots brain as part of the computer core.

[rat_bastard]

Its not really a borg
Its a Robot weapon that has a former pilots brain as part of the computer core.

Thats exactly what a full conversion borg is.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Its not really a borg
Its a Robot weapon that has a former pilots brain as part of the computer core.

Thats exactly what a full conversion borg is.

That is an *option* for FCBs, yes, but it isn't 'the way'.

Of the Triax FCBs, only the VX-2000 series are that way. The others retain all of their basic human torso organs (heart, lungs, et al) and face at the very least.

Reading the Bionics Sourcebook (and particularly, before that existed, the RMB) there's nothing that says that the torso is replaced even on FCBs - just that the bones are replaced or reinforced to hold the (new, replaced) arms and legs and additional armoring. The entire original torso may be there under the reinforcement. There's even a possibility that your sexual organs are still there, if you wanted to one day reproduce.

[eliakon]

Its not really a borg
Its a Robot weapon that has a former pilots brain as part of the computer core.

Thats exactly what a full conversion borg is.

No a Borg is a brain piloting something.
The 'pilot' of the NE-MD1000 is not in charge of the system (it can control, at most 1/3 of the systems at one time, and can be overridden by the computer at any time.) They lose all their bonuses, and attacks, just keeping its old skills.
I would say that "the once human brain incorporated into the Wrath of God is part of a complex, alien, dual command/control system that provides the raw drive and lust for destruction of the Destroyer." is best way to put it. This isn't a cyborg so much as its a killing machine that needs a brain to turn it on, but is willing to give said brain a ride, as long as that's convenient.

[Dog_O_War]

Look, people, regardless of how much flesh there is left of a human/machine union, a Borg is exactly that; a combination man and machine, in nearly any ratio.

[Alrik Vas]

Mechanoids are a snot of psychic biomass shoved into a machine body, and they're cyborgs according to their fluff (and crunch). Let's just go with it.

[kaid]

Mechanoids are a snot of psychic biomass shoved into a machine body, and they're cyborgs according to their fluff (and crunch). Let's just go with it.

Except that mechanoids control the vehicles they are in. They are not controlled by them. Mechanoid warships are cyborgs and you would get no argument from me about that. Most of the mechanoid warships though are also tend to have tens or hundreds of mechanoids operating them. The naruni ship is an AI controlled ship that has a human pilot connected inside it to provide it some extra utility.

The naruni ship would probably be more aptly described as a robot than a cyborg as it clearly acts more like the former than the later.

[Dog_O_War]

Mechanoids are a snot of psychic biomass shoved into a machine body, and they're cyborgs according to their fluff (and crunch). Let's just go with it.

Except that mechanoids control the vehicles they are in. They are not controlled by them. Mechanoid warships are cyborgs and you would get no argument from me about that. Most of the mechanoid warships though are also tend to have tens or hundreds of mechanoids operating them. The naruni ship is an AI controlled ship that has a human pilot connected inside it to provide it some extra utility.

The naruni ship would probably be more aptly described as a robot than a cyborg as it clearly acts more like the former than the later.

Well the simple answer is this:

Please point out anywhere in any book that the fleshy portion of a cyborg needs to be in control of the overall union in order to be considered a cyborg.

The answer is you can't because it doesn't say either way who actually needs to be in control in a cyborg situation.

That should be the end of the discussion.

[flatline]

I don't think there's any confusion about what constitutes power armor and full conversion borgs when looking at what's available to human powers on Rifts Earth like the CS or NGR.

The more esoteric discussion about what qualifies as a borg should probably have its own thread.

--flatline

[taalismn]

It's a thin line when discussing cyborgs, whether organic circuirty controlled by an AI in a robotioc shell constitutes a cyborg or whether the central commanding brain has to be organic.
Overall, I'd say 'yes' as a broadbrush definition, since it's the merging of flesh and synthetic that's the determiner. But a game definition would likely be more based on whether the controling intelligence, be it meat-brain or electron-maze, is heir to the same vulnerabilities (an AI immersed in organic connections might be vulnerable to sensation, psionic attack, and hormonal confusion if the integration is high enough) as the other.
GM's perogative for those borderline case judgements, I say.

[GlitterKnight]

Well, this got a bit off topic. My original thought was focused on just the conventional Earth 'borgs and power armors. There's way too much crazy technology and out there aliens with their own unique stuff. I hadn't even considered the Naruni stuff, but to clarify, I'm looking at 'borgs and power armor as weapon systems from the perspective of a Golden Age military, and the modern post apocalyptic ones. And even for the latter, I'm thinking of those who hew closer to the conventional, Golden Age military organization and technology. So why make the decision as say, the Coalition States, the NGR, Free Quebec, Northern Gun/Ispheming, the Polish Kingdoms, the Warlords of Russia, the Geofront (don't know much about the Geofront actually, still working through China 2), the Sovietski, and the Japanese tech cities (I forget if they're formally the Japanese Republic or whatever).

From a toughness standpoint, 'borgs can get pretty crazy. Standard Combat Cyborgs start with 180 and can buy up 280 MDC for the main body. The Heavy Infantry Armor adds a ton of MDC but it also causes significant penalties in slowness and strike/parry/dodge minuses. A 'borg specced for toughness can rock 640 main body MDC, which is higher than the vast majority of power armor, with the notable exception of the Glitterboy. But then, the Glitterboy is the gold standard (or chromium, in this case) of toughness in Rifts for technological creations. It also packs the most powerful personal weapon in the game, which even 'borgs the same size and with pylons aren't supposed to be able to use. That seems more like writer fiat, but there it is.

The great advantage of the 'borg is that you don't HAVE MDC protection, you ARE MDC protection. They're tougher than a lot of power armor, especially when wearing armor, because unlike power armor, which is a hard shell with a squishy human inside, a 'borg is hard armor covering hard cybernetics. They get the advantage of never being without their strength and toughness, which of course, causes social and psychological problems, because they're living tanks. A heavily armored borg does outpace even some giant robots in toughness, which is a bit crazy. But power armor is generally more versatile, as they tend to be built around a specific mission goal, and have more specialized abilities. The only 'borg I can find who can keep up with a SAMAS in the air is a Russian Avenging Angel, and that's a super rare and exclusive chassis. Power armor seems like it's easier to build around an idea, like the Glitterboy. It's an insanely tough fortress that's a weapons platform for a Boomgun. It's slower than most power armor and 'borgs, but it's built to be tough and stationary. There's no way to build a 'borg to match it's mission profile to be equal or better.

One of the ideas put forth was using power armor and cybernetics together; 'borgs wearing power armor. It's a useful idea on the lower end; a cyber-humanoid, a partial conversion or a light conversion 'borg, keeping to human porportions, can wear power armor. It would keep you alive when the armor cracks, but it doesn't stack that well. Power armor doesn't add to the pilot's strength, it grants him it's own. So you don't get +30 Robo PS when wearing power armor, you get a flat 30 Robo PS to use. Exoskeleton body armors do add a bonus to PS, rather than granting a different one. So a customized exoskeleton, or just a light borg wearing one, could reap some great advantages. Most of those provide less MDC than a Heavy Infantry Borg armor.

[rat_bastard]

One of the ideas put forth was using power armor and cybernetics together; 'borgs wearing power armor. It's a useful idea on the lower end; a cyber-humanoid, a partial conversion or a light conversion 'borg, keeping to human porportions, can wear power armor. It would keep you alive when the armor cracks, but it doesn't stack that well. Power armor doesn't add to the pilot's strength, it grants him it's own. So you don't get +30 Robo PS when wearing power armor, you get a flat 30 Robo PS to use. Exoskeleton body armors do add a bonus to PS, rather than granting a different one. So a customized exoskeleton, or just a light borg wearing one, could reap some great advantages. Most of those provide less MDC than a Heavy Infantry Borg armor.

Borgs cannot be Power Armor pilots, its in the list of banned skills for all Borg OCCs. Headhunters can do it though.

[Nightmask]

One of the ideas put forth was using power armor and cybernetics together; 'borgs wearing power armor. It's a useful idea on the lower end; a cyber-humanoid, a partial conversion or a light conversion 'borg, keeping to human porportions, can wear power armor. It would keep you alive when the armor cracks, but it doesn't stack that well. Power armor doesn't add to the pilot's strength, it grants him it's own. So you don't get +30 Robo PS when wearing power armor, you get a flat 30 Robo PS to use. Exoskeleton body armors do add a bonus to PS, rather than granting a different one. So a customized exoskeleton, or just a light borg wearing one, could reap some great advantages. Most of those provide less MDC than a Heavy Infantry Borg armor.

Borgs cannot be Power Armor pilots, its in the list of banned skills for all Borg OCCs. Headhunters can do it though.

Except not every cyborg begins as a cyborg, some used to be Rogue Scholars or Power Armor Pilots or other OCC so could certainly have skill in piloting power armor or robot vehicles.

[rat_bastard]

One of the ideas put forth was using power armor and cybernetics together; 'borgs wearing power armor. It's a useful idea on the lower end; a cyber-humanoid, a partial conversion or a light conversion 'borg, keeping to human porportions, can wear power armor. It would keep you alive when the armor cracks, but it doesn't stack that well. Power armor doesn't add to the pilot's strength, it grants him it's own. So you don't get +30 Robo PS when wearing power armor, you get a flat 30 Robo PS to use. Exoskeleton body armors do add a bonus to PS, rather than granting a different one. So a customized exoskeleton, or just a light borg wearing one, could reap some great advantages. Most of those provide less MDC than a Heavy Infantry Borg armor.

Borgs cannot be Power Armor pilots, its in the list of banned skills for all Borg OCCs. Headhunters can do it though.

Except not every cyborg begins as a cyborg, some used to be Rogue Scholars or Power Armor Pilots or other OCC so could certainly have skill in piloting power armor or robot vehicles.

If you'll note page 62 of the Bionics Sourcebook those skills immediately stop growing with the character and atrophy quickly. you have maybe half a year before you are too incompetent to work the starter.

[Nightmask]

One of the ideas put forth was using power armor and cybernetics together; 'borgs wearing power armor. It's a useful idea on the lower end; a cyber-humanoid, a partial conversion or a light conversion 'borg, keeping to human porportions, can wear power armor. It would keep you alive when the armor cracks, but it doesn't stack that well. Power armor doesn't add to the pilot's strength, it grants him it's own. So you don't get +30 Robo PS when wearing power armor, you get a flat 30 Robo PS to use. Exoskeleton body armors do add a bonus to PS, rather than granting a different one. So a customized exoskeleton, or just a light borg wearing one, could reap some great advantages. Most of those provide less MDC than a Heavy Infantry Borg armor.

Borgs cannot be Power Armor pilots, its in the list of banned skills for all Borg OCCs. Headhunters can do it though.

Except not every cyborg begins as a cyborg, some used to be Rogue Scholars or Power Armor Pilots or other OCC so could certainly have skill in piloting power armor or robot vehicles.

If you'll note page 62 of the Bionics Sourcebook those skills immediately stop growing with the character and atrophy quickly. you have maybe half a year before you are too incompetent to work the starter.

Yeah that's just ridiculous, the idea that those skills in particular would just 'go away' so that you couldn't remember how to do anything you'd trained in yet no other skills atrophy from changing classes or that they'd atrophy in general. Even if I had the Bionics Sourcebook I'd never accept that kind of rules change.

[kaid]

Arial roles are one area power armor in general does better than cyborgs. There are a few good flying borg bodies two of the shock trooper chasis the one that looks like the gargoyle which is about equal to an old style samas in terms of speed/flight capabilities and the avenging angel which is better than the old style samas flying ability wise.

In the bionics source book there are some decent jet pack/jump assist options so mobility for borgs is not bad but other than some rarities flying power armor like a samas will be better in the air than most borgs.

Light/medium assault borgs with those jump assist options though rival terrain hoppers for ground speed and agility while being about twice as durable and potentially much more durable than that if they chose to sacrifice some speed.

The role borgs currently do better than all power armor except glitterboys is shock trooper/heavy assault. Heavy assault borgs with the standard template can actually get up to 700 MDC 280 from the borg maxed out and 420 from the heaviest borg armor. While in this configuration they are slow but still generally faster than robot vehicles and have double or more the MDC of most power armor designed for a similar role. And even for the ones closer to it none but the glitterbody can match a heavy borg.

So for an objective especially going after things in a city or building it is really hard to beat a heavy assault borg in the role they really are made for. The other nice thing is even if the borg is "killed" there is a good chance if you get to them soon enough you can get them back to the shop and transfer their living bits to a new body and they are good to go again.

Both power armor and cyborgs work well together in a military. You can field more power armor easier and it is easier to get high mobility flying units such as samas/flying titans/NG red hawks and presumably blue hawks as well.

Cyborgs can fill most of the same roles but tend to be a bit more generalist as each borg is a bit more unique in what its equipment lay out wise.

I military that can field things like samas flying air cover and support for a spear head of heavy assault borgs pushing an objective is a pretty terrifying force to deal with.

[sagajr]

What PA aside the terrain hopper is under 9ft tall and fills the role of urban combat the way a 'borg does? (not challenging! Really want to know if you have an answer )

Several small sized PAs (from Rifts: Japan):
USA-G10A1 Glitter Boy (aka Point Glitter Boy) - 7 feet 10 inches, laser resistant armor, above average armor (480 MDC), good weapon package (energy + rail gun), good mobility (faster than the other glitter boy variants).

H-Brand Ninjabot - 7 feet 5 inches, ligthweight and lightly armored (190 MDC), cheap (1 million), good weapon package (ion gun, missiles and vibro blades), average mobility (60 mph, with optional flying system).

IPA-40 Dai Katana Bugei - 6 feet 10 inches, average armor (250 MDC), high mobility (100 mph running speed and built-in flying system with 200 mph maximum speed and 5000 feet maximum altitude), lightweight, above average price (2 million credits), excellent weapon package (multiple vibro blades with high close combat damage, missile launchers, laser guns, hand held rail gun).

IPA 60 Tazu Tengu and IPA 62 Super Tengu - 7 feet, flying power armors with wings, low running speed (40 mph), average to high flying speed (260 to 350 mph), high altitude (6000 to 10000 feet), average/below average armor (200 and 260 MDC), no or minimal built-in weapon systems (grenades and missiles on military variants), low price (0.85 to 1.2 million).

ArmaTech Samurai SAMAS - Japanese equivalent of the Coalition SAMAS with the same size (8 feet), better armor (290 MDC), high flying speed and altitude (350 mph and 6000 feet), energy and missile weapons (particle beam/laser cannon, 2 mini missile launchers, neural stick), average price (1.6 million)

[rat_bastard]

What PA aside the terrain hopper is under 9ft tall and fills the role of urban combat the way a 'borg does? (not challenging! Really want to know if you have an answer )

Several small sized PAs (from Rifts: Japan):
USA-G10A1 Glitter Boy (aka Point Glitter Boy) - 7 feet 10 inches, laser resistant armor, above average armor (480 MDC), good weapon package (energy + rail gun), good mobility (faster than the other glitter boy variants).

H-Brand Ninjabot - 7 feet 5 inches, ligthweight and lightly armored (190 MDC), cheap (1 million), good weapon package (ion gun, missiles and vibro blades), average mobility (60 mph, with optional flying system).

IPA-40 Dai Katana Bugei - 6 feet 10 inches, average armor (250 MDC), high mobility (100 mph running speed and built-in flying system with 200 mph maximum speed and 5000 feet maximum altitude), lightweight, above average price (2 million credits), excellent weapon package (multiple vibro blades with high close combat damage, missile launchers, laser guns, hand held rail gun).

IPA 60 Tazu Tengu and IPA 62 Super Tengu - 7 feet, flying power armors with wings, low running speed (40 mph), average to high flying speed (260 to 350 mph), high altitude (6000 to 10000 feet), average/below average armor (200 and 260 MDC), no or minimal built-in weapon systems (grenades and missiles on military variants), low price (0.85 to 1.2 million).

ArmaTech Samurai SAMAS - Japanese equivalent of the Coalition SAMAS with the same size (8 feet), better armor (290 MDC), high flying speed and altitude (350 mph and 6000 feet), energy and missile weapons (particle beam/laser cannon, 2 mini missile launchers, neural stick), average price (1.6 million)

Chipwell Vamp slayer 6-7 feet
Chipwell Sky Power Armor 7 feet
Northern Gun Beach Stormer 7.2 feet
Titan footman 7 feet
Northern Gun Gladius +4 inches
CS Navy Trident power armor 7.2 feet
Triax super trooper 7-8 feet
Colombian light D10 exoskeleton 7 feet
Orca 50 power armor 7 feet
Northern Gun JK1A Power armor 7 feet
Glitter Boy Sidekick 7 feet
Naruni Tech Warrior Armor +1 foot
Naruni stealth power armor +4 inches.

I missed about a half dozen because I thought your standard was under 8 feet, not under 9 feet. But for ground based power armor there are plenty of just over the size of regular heavy armor.