Cosmo-knight vs Dead Reign zombies.

[Looonatic]

So, I'm playing a cosmo-knight as a PC for the first time. Our group happens upon a small space station in the Anvil Galaxy and are decompressing after a close-encounter with a flesh-eating jungle. Suddenly, a zombie apocalypse happens! The people on the station go berzerk, the zombies multiply quickly and my cosmo-knight finds himself fighting zombies. Well, after dispatching the first with a couple swift punches to the head, he cosmic blasts one gnawing on his leg. And that's when the unexpected happens: Nothing!

According to my gm and the conversion rules in Dead Reign, he counts my cosmic blasts as an energy attack and energy attacks do NO damage! I tried explaining that as a Cosmo-knight I'm a supernatural creature and therefore my attacks are supernatural attacks. He says that there are no special allowances for supernatural attacks or even magical attacks except from magical melee weapons. Well, I'm annoyed, but I whip out a pair of phase kukris and go to town. A few minutes later, I drop a video billboard on a bunch more.

Later on my own, I check the book, and he is correct. Though I may personally disagree with the notion, there is nothing that would suggest that my cosmo-knight's cosmic blast would do any damage whatsoever to a Dead Reign zombie. Quite mystifying.

[Kovoston]

So, I'm playing a cosmo-knight as a PC for the first time. Our group happens upon a small space station in the Anvil Galaxy and are decompressing after a close-encounter with a flesh-eating jungle. Suddenly, a zombie apocalypse happens! The people on the station go berzerk, the zombies multiply quickly and my cosmo-knight finds himself fighting zombies. Well, after dispatching the first with a couple swift punches to the head, he cosmic blasts one gnawing on his leg. And that's when the unexpected happens: Nothing!

According to my gm and the conversion rules in Dead Reign, he counts my cosmic blasts as an energy attack and energy attacks do NO damage! I tried explaining that as a Cosmo-knight I'm a supernatural creature and therefore my attacks are supernatural attacks. He says that there are no special allowances for supernatural attacks or even magical attacks except from magical melee weapons. Well, I'm annoyed, but I whip out a pair of phase kukris and go to town. A few minutes later, I drop a video billboard on a bunch more.

Later on my own, I check the book, and he is correct. Though I may personally disagree with the notion, there is nothing that would suggest that my cosmo-knight's cosmic blast would do any damage whatsoever to a Dead Reign zombie. Quite mystifying.

Use the Taco ray next time!!

[eliakon]

So, I'm playing a cosmo-knight as a PC for the first time. Our group happens upon a small space station in the Anvil Galaxy and are decompressing after a close-encounter with a flesh-eating jungle. Suddenly, a zombie apocalypse happens! The people on the station go berzerk, the zombies multiply quickly and my cosmo-knight finds himself fighting zombies. Well, after dispatching the first with a couple swift punches to the head, he cosmic blasts one gnawing on his leg. And that's when the unexpected happens: Nothing!

According to my gm and the conversion rules in Dead Reign, he counts my cosmic blasts as an energy attack and energy attacks do NO damage! I tried explaining that as a Cosmo-knight I'm a supernatural creature and therefore my attacks are supernatural attacks. He says that there are no special allowances for supernatural attacks or even magical attacks except from magical melee weapons. Well, I'm annoyed, but I whip out a pair of phase kukris and go to town. A few minutes later, I drop a video billboard on a bunch more.

Later on my own, I check the book, and he is correct. Though I may personally disagree with the notion, there is nothing that would suggest that my cosmo-knight's cosmic blast would do any damage whatsoever to a Dead Reign zombie. Quite mystifying.

Yah the conversion notes are.....odd.... Of course it does say that 'most' energy weapons are ineffective as opposed to all. Personally I think the written conversion is silly beyond words, but that's just me.

[Deadboy Dakka]

Ah, the old story a GM forgetting that gift of gifts... Logic. Yes on paper, he could be right, but it it a COSMO-KINIGHT!!!! THEY TAKE ON BATTLESHIPS!!! AND WIN!!!!
But I digress, honestly, i would use that against him somehow, and remember, the bulkhead is not blast proof. They maybe vacuum proof as well, but you cant really move in space... Oh, and you got the really big sword O'Doom

[Chronicle]

Cosmic blast is beyond tech based energy attacks and should work like it was magic attack

[Looonatic]

So, I'm playing a cosmo-knight as a PC for the first time. Our group happens upon a small space station in the Anvil Galaxy and are decompressing after a close-encounter with a flesh-eating jungle. Suddenly, a zombie apocalypse happens! The people on the station go berzerk, the zombies multiply quickly and my cosmo-knight finds himself fighting zombies. Well, after dispatching the first with a couple swift punches to the head, he cosmic blasts one gnawing on his leg. And that's when the unexpected happens: Nothing!

According to my gm and the conversion rules in Dead Reign, he counts my cosmic blasts as an energy attack and energy attacks do NO damage! I tried explaining that as a Cosmo-knight I'm a supernatural creature and therefore my attacks are supernatural attacks. He says that there are no special allowances for supernatural attacks or even magical attacks except from magical melee weapons. Well, I'm annoyed, but I whip out a pair of phase kukris and go to town. A few minutes later, I drop a video billboard on a bunch more.

Later on my own, I check the book, and he is correct. Though I may personally disagree with the notion, there is nothing that would suggest that my cosmo-knight's cosmic blast would do any damage whatsoever to a Dead Reign zombie. Quite mystifying.

Use the Taco ray next time!!

Taco Rays do Exa-Damage!

[Tor]

I whip out a pair of phase kukris and go to town.

Are we sure that phase weapons hurt zombies? Organic in nature though they remain, they are not alive, so it's a bit murky.

Cosmic blast is beyond tech based energy attacks and should work like it was magic attack

Based on what? Even if it were considered magical (source?) that would not make it 'beyond tech' since there's often overlap between the two.

I seem to recall CosmoKs vs Vampires being discussed before, would it be right to guess DRzombies are as vulnerable to magic as vamps?

[Looonatic]

I whip out a pair of phase kukris and go to town.

Are we sure that phase weapons hurt zombies? Organic in nature though they remain, they are not alive, so it's a bit murky.

Cosmic blast is beyond tech based energy attacks and should work like it was magic attack

Based on what? Even if it were considered magical (source?) that would not make it 'beyond tech' since there's often overlap between the two.

I seem to recall CosmoKs vs Vampires being discussed before, would it be right to guess DRzombies are as vulnerable to magic as vamps?

Well, Cosmoknights are supernatural beings, so at the vry least, it's a supernatural attack.

[Chronicle]

One of the phase world books specifically states that the cosmic energy is above the standard tech and even magic and should be treated as magic. I think it was fleets of the 3 galaxies in the dominator section.

I could be wrong, but I am sure I read it there.

I am not asking for an argument just stating what I saw. If I am wrong then I am wrong. Check out the book and let us know. If i am wrong I will own it.

[Looonatic]

Yep, Here's a blurb from Fleets of The Three Galaxies page 48:

"Cosmic Energy Weapons: The Dominators are the only
race in the entire universe known to have developed weapons
that can fire directed cosmic energy. Even defining "cosmic
energy" is difficult. Scientifically, it is a mixture of protons, alpha
particles, and heavy atomic nuclei. It behaves like a laser,
but has similar wave mechanics to a particle beam. It affects
magical constructs, and shares many of the supernatural attributes
of sunlight, even though it contains no photons. Cosmic
energy has absolutely no radioactive signature or aftereffects.
Cosmo-Knights can generate it by will alone, making many
think it is somehow related to the phenomenon called zero-point
energy. In short, no one knows what it is or where it comes
from."

[VR Dragon]

This has been an issue that has been settles for all but those who actively choose not to accept it. The cosmic energy blast is a bolt of quasi magical energy that affects things even immune to energy (invulnerability), its like how a psi sword is a type of energy that still effects things immune to energy, normal weapons, and the like.

A Cosmic e-blast would affect a palladium vampire old or new, it gets around "impervious to energy" spells and anything of that like. You are born of the forge, you are the bane of all monsters no matter their "Special immunities" issues.

The forge created planets, solar systems, new forms of life, galaxies, pocket realities, whipped out all of the first race in all of the megaverse in a split second. How the heck do you or any GM come up with the lame idea that a silly fad creature like a zombie will trump something as powerful as that or beings who draw their powers from such a font of power.

So in the best sense of the word your GM would be wrong, but its his imagination so he has the final say so.

[VR Dragon]

Also to all things that are impervious to energy... Particle Beams are more molecular disintegration not just burning destruction like fire, lasers, and other such energies. Heck PBs hurt invulnerable super humans in those games with that power.

[eliakon]

This has been an issue that has been settles for all but those who actively choose not to accept it. The cosmic energy blast is a bolt of quasi magical energy that affects things even immune to energy (invulnerability), its like how a psi sword is a type of energy that still effects things immune to energy, normal weapons, and the like.

A Cosmic e-blast would affect a palladium vampire old or new, it gets around "impervious to energy" spells and anything of that like. You are born of the forge, you are the bane of all monsters no matter their "Special immunities" issues.

The forge created planets, solar systems, new forms of life, galaxies, pocket realities, whipped out all of the first race in all of the megaverse in a split second. How the heck do you or any GM come up with the lame idea that a silly fad creature like a zombie will trump something as powerful as that or beings who draw their powers from such a font of power.

So in the best sense of the word your GM would be wrong, but its his imagination so he has the final say so.

Also to all things that are impervious to energy... Particle Beams are more molecular disintegration not just burning destruction like fire, lasers, and other such energies. Heck PBs hurt invulnerable super humans in those games with that power.

I would say that neither of these is exactly true.
Cosmic energy is...well cosmic energy, nebulous, ill defined, and canon is vague on what it harms.
Particle Beams do harm invulnerable supers in HU....but noticeably do NOT get that ability in Rifts.
As to if impervious to energy would protect...that would depend on the GM.

[Tor]

Cosmoknights are supernatural beings, so at the vry least, it's a supernatural attack.

Being supernatural doesn't mean anything you do is supernatural. The only thing that tends to affect by default is hand to hand attacks. Long-range attacks or attacks with weapons aren't supernaturalized unless it explicitly says so. I think it's a stretch to assume that about energy expulsion, which can have non-supernatural origins. I think we would have to rely on explicit statements about cosmics blasts harming undead immune to normal energy attacks for this to count.

One of the phase world books specifically states that the cosmic energy is above the standard tech and even magic and should be treated as magic. I think it was fleets of the 3 galaxies in the dominator section.

So it splits zavors now? Or wait... I don't think magic energy does, only magic weapons and magic beings. Being above standard tech or magic doesn't make it magic, IMO. If it was, it would've said so. I would consider this a change, rather than a clarification, if it was added.

affects magical constructs, and shares many of the supernatural attributes of sunlight

I don't see how that means it harms zombies.

[Chronicle]

And that is how it works for your games. We all have different points of view.

[Tor]

I'm discussing what's canon, not my games. There's a difference between point of view in regard to how we would alter canon vs how we would interpret it. Number of PoVs isn't relevant, what matters is precedent.

[Chronicle]

Do you really want to push a proverbial loud discussion over vague rules and descriptions? I sure don't. This is one of those things that seems left open to interpretation, whether intentional or not.

[eliakon]

Well the canon on the matter is "..." hrm, nope no canon. What a surprise another vauge undefined area of the palladium game system.

[Tor]

Canon does not need to specifically address matter for us to be able to answer it. I have trouble finding where in Dead Reign it says zombies are impervious to all energy (can someone point that out?) but if they are, then a CK energy blast IS energy and won't harm them.

In Phase World, energy blasts that can harm things impervious to energy have explicitly said so, such as the weapons the Invaders wield. Cosmic blasts never said that. Any new rule saying so is a ret-con we will be forced to explain away by the Forge giving them an upgrade.

[cornholioprime]

So, I'm playing a cosmo-knight as a PC for the first time. Our group happens upon a small space station in the Anvil Galaxy and are decompressing after a close-encounter with a flesh-eating jungle. Suddenly, a zombie apocalypse happens! The people on the station go berzerk, the zombies multiply quickly and my cosmo-knight finds himself fighting zombies. Well, after dispatching the first with a couple swift punches to the head, he cosmic blasts one gnawing on his leg. And that's when the unexpected happens: Nothing!

According to my gm and the conversion rules in Dead Reign, he counts my cosmic blasts as an energy attack and energy attacks do NO damage! I tried explaining that as a Cosmo-knight I'm a supernatural creature and therefore my attacks are supernatural attacks. He says that there are no special allowances for supernatural attacks or even magical attacks except from magical melee weapons. Well, I'm annoyed, but I whip out a pair of phase kukris and go to town. A few minutes later, I drop a video billboard on a bunch more.

Later on my own, I check the book, and he is correct. Though I may personally disagree with the notion, there is nothing that would suggest that my cosmo-knight's cosmic blast would do any damage whatsoever to a Dead Reign zombie. Quite mystifying.

Your GM is incorrect.

Dead Reign Zombies have virtually nothing in common with other forms of Palladium Undead found throughout the Megaverse, don't have the invulnerabilities of any of the others, and are therefore vulnerable to anything and everything that can damage or destroy ordinary, low-SDC objects.

[Tor]

I'm really trying to figure out where this 'impervious to energy' bit came form. I mean yeah, if zombies had it inherently, but I was just assuming someone found a rule I didn't, because I don't remember seeing that for any kind of zombie.

Maybe until someone gets a page reference we can have a CosmoKs vs Vampires debate instead, since we know they're impervious to non-magic energy, and cosmic energy's not magic That's why Cosmo-Knights basically can't energy blast each other (it can happen without either falling if there's a mixup) and actually DO anything unless they get really high rolls.

[eliakon]

The (in my mind silly) conversion rules are on page 55 of the DR base book.
"Laser, ion beams, particle beams and most other energy weapons do NO damage to zombies. Neither do ordinary S.D.C. weapons."
the problem is that word most. Some Gm's feel it means 'all energy weapons except those that explicitly say they do' others feel it means "most energy weapons except for stuff that logically should'
I am in the second camp and feel that things like Phase Beams, Comsic Blasts, Synchro Cannons, Valix Rifles, Intruder Weapons and other unusual energy sources hurt them, just not mundane stuff like lasers, or microwaves or what not.

[SpiritInterface]

According to Palladium FAQs (http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/inde ... Itemid=200)

49. I wanted to know if a cosmo knight can damage a vampire through a punch, cosmic blast, or, cosmic weapon?

Answer: There weapons and natural damage is considered supernatural, so they can inflict damage to vampires.

So the cannon on Cosmo Knights is that their attacks are supernatural and can hurt thing that need magic or supernatural attacks to be harmed.

[Tor]

Ah okay, I'm going to write in pen in page 1 of my book to look there, I'll probably forget. The organization of the DR book isn't exactly what I'm accustomed to.

It does say 'most' other energy attacks, so since it doesn't explicitly say generic (or cosmic) energy is something they're immune to, the GM could rule it hurts them I guess. We know they're not impervious to ALL energy since fire hurts them. All we know for sure is laser/ion/particle don't work directly.

I say directly because... even if a laser doesn't harm the zombie, it MIGHT set his clothes on fire, and in Rifts mundane fire still does damage to them...

So people like the CS could wise up to their immunity and just use lasers to hit things adjacent to them.

That or just use plasma rifles/grenades. They aren't off limits and I think could reasonably be judged to be within the 'fire' category.

Barring that, you could use molotovs or flare guns to hurt the zombies.

Surprised that rail guns don't do anything unless you get that magically-difficult head shot. Vibro-blades are so ineffective it doesn't seem like it's worth trying against them.

Does anyone recall if zombies have supernatural strength to allow them to inflict MD in Rifts?

Q: wanted to know if a cosmo knight can damage a vampire through a punch, cosmic blast, or, cosmic weapon?
A: There weapons and natural damage is considered supernatural, so they can inflict damage to vampires.

I'm not inclined to take serious a 'Fan FAQ' which can't even spell 'their' right. Also that answer didn't address the question. They say "weapons and natural damage". That means punches and cosmic axes and stuff. The part about energy blasts was totally ignored.

[SpiritInterface]

Q: wanted to know if a cosmo knight can damage a vampire through a punch, cosmic blast, or, cosmic weapon?
A: There weapons and natural damage is considered supernatural, so they can inflict damage to vampires.

I'm not inclined to take serious a 'Fan FAQ' which can't even spell 'their' right. Also that answer didn't address the question. They say "weapons and natural damage". That means punches and cosmic axes and stuff. The part about energy blasts was totally ignored.

The Cutting Room Floor and it's FAQ are supposed to be cannon so to just dismiss it as "Fan FAQ" and not coming from Palladium is the same as saying 'I don't like that book so I am going ignore it.'

[eliakon]

Q: wanted to know if a cosmo knight can damage a vampire through a punch, cosmic blast, or, cosmic weapon?
A: There weapons and natural damage is considered supernatural, so they can inflict damage to vampires.

I'm not inclined to take serious a 'Fan FAQ' which can't even spell 'their' right. Also that answer didn't address the question. They say "weapons and natural damage". That means punches and cosmic axes and stuff. The part about energy blasts was totally ignored.

The Cutting Room Floor and it's FAQ are supposed to be cannon so to just dismiss it as "Fan FAQ" and not coming from Palladium is the same as saying 'I don't like that book so I am going ignore it.'

It has been made semi-canon officially. Its the best source for clarifications but it is no longer considered canon.

[SpiritInterface]

Also saying that just because the "cosmic blast" isn't mentioned so it is not supernatural is the same as Dragons breaths not being supernatural because it doesn't say it is.

[Tor]

The Cutting Room Floor and it's FAQ are supposed to be cannon so to just dismiss it as "Fan FAQ" and not coming from Palladium is the same as saying 'I don't like that book so I am going ignore it.'

The CRF has a combination of various material:
1. things that went out of print
2. were forgotten
3. left out for other reasons
4. general errata
5. excluded material

1+2 sound like canon, 3+5 do not, not sure about 4.

Anything up at http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/index.html Fan FAQ from 2002 sounds like it was written by fans.

As we can see, the CosmoKvVamp Q was from http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... ombat.html which was part of the Fan FAQ.

Also saying that just because the "cosmic blast" isn't mentioned so it is not supernatural is the same as Dragons breaths not being supernatural because it doesn't say it is.

I don't follow your example here. It's very clear that dragon's breath attacks are magical in nature, which is why they would hurt a vampire. This isn't clear about cosmic attacks.

The response ignored the part about cosmic blasts and only answered for weapons and punches ('natural damage'). This is obviously because Cosmo-Knights have supernatural strength.

I guess since the cosmic weapons are considered supernatural, this means that a Fallen Cosmo-Knight could also hurt vampires with his weapon, but since they are no longer supernatural beings (per Atlantis supies can't become witches, Fallens can... although I am now confused how there was a Sowki witch... maybe that restriction is just for Splugorth Witches and not Apsu ones...) their punches might not (though they retain supernatural strength so... I dunno).

If we look on the same FAQ that tells us Cosmo-Knight WEAPONS can hurt vampires, there is a simialr question:

90. In South America 2 there is an OCC called the Ultra-Crazy. This OCC's Supernatural Strength and Supernatural Endurance are created or originate from magical means (TW). Does this mean he has the capacity to do damage in hand to hand to those creatures that can only be affected by magic? For instance would he be able to do damage to Murderwraiths or Vampires?

Answer: Yes, those with supernatural strength can affect those creatures that can only be harmed by magic/supernatural means

This is clearly how Cosmo-Knights hurt vampires, not through energy blasts. The FAQ answer (canon or not) never specified energy blasts. It was a partial answer.

[cornholioprime]

Does anyone recall if zombies have supernatural strength to allow them to inflict MD in Rifts?

The different Zombie types found throughout the Palladium Megaverse have different strength (P.S.) attributes that are AFAIK listed with each type; Dead Reign zombies, for example, "only" have twice the P.S. the living human had in life, while Nxla's Soulless Xombies have Supernatural P.S.

From what I remember:

Spell Magic Zombies: non-supernatural P.S.
Dead Reign Zombies: non-supernatural P.S.
Nxla's Soulless Xombies: supernatural P.S.
Xombis: don't remember, but I think that they have supernatural P.S.
Most other forms of non-vampiric Undead: supernatural P.S.

Following precedent established in many other Palladium works, ALL (Palladium) Zombies, being True Supernatural Creatures, can damage Creatures Of Magic and other True Supernatural Creatures with their hand-to-hand attacks, regardless of the creature's invulnerabilities (unless otherwise specifically stated, like Zavors for example) -which means that if a SN or CoM is hit by one of these beings and is M.D., they will take M.D. damage.

[Tor]

Too bad Dead Reign zombies probably aren't as proficient with vibro-blades as NB/Rifts ritual ones or Xombies.

It make me wonder... what happens if a Dead Reign Zombie kills someone wearing a suit of really basic power armor (like say, their helmet is off and a Crawler hanging from the ceiling by their arms head-butts them to death) and then someone comes along and replaces the helmet prior to their raising, so the zombie wakes up encased in Power Armor?

Obviously they would lack any PA combat skill (elite or basic) or even basic HtH skills that normally stack with them... but if it was a really basic PA suit (not one of those pseudo-robots where the pilot's legs aren't even in the legs and just seated) then would they be able to move around in it?

I doubt they could activate any of the range weapons, but I figure a DRzombie in PA might be able to do basic punches and if the robot already had vibro-blades extending from the arms, or was holding a mace, use those too.

It'd be a lot less complicated than figuring out how to unsuit from the thing.

[Tor]

My first printing of Dead Reign says on page 55 in addition to lasers that 'ion beams, particle beams and most other energy weapons do NO damage to zombies'.

The same paragraph also says 'Neither do ordinary SDC weapons', so one could interpret this energy immunity as only applying in MDC settings, and that lasers and stuff hurt them fine in SDC settings.

While I'm inclined to ASSUME they get supernatural strength, I can't find where it explicitly says they do, even in the MDC conversion rules, so I don't even think they're supernatural PS in Rifts. Not everything that's MDC gets it, even though it's more and more common for new races to do that by default.

Rappa could you clarify where in DR it says they have supernatural strength? Is it possible this might've been something included in the Rifter demo that didn't make it into the official book?

As for exclusive laser immunity, is it possible you have a later printing than I do, and that in later printings Kevin removed the immunity to ion/particle beam? Or is there somewhere else in the book besides the 'Other Game Settings' section which addresses lasers?

[eliakon]

Um. all the zombies in Dead reign have supernatural Strength. All of them. the only energy type Dead reign zombies were immune to were lasers. End of Story.

"Laser, ion beams, particle beams and most other energy weapons do NO damage to zombies. Neither do ordinary S.D.C. weapons."
that would suggest that the story includes at a minimum Ion Beams, Particle Beams, and what ever else was meant by 'most other'

the Strength is iffy, and I would say that since it simply says PS is doubled, combined with the lack of both a supernatural strength table for damage, and the lack of any statement that it becomes supernatural, that the strength is indeed regular strength.

[cornholioprime]

Um. all the zombies in Dead reign have supernatural Strength. All of them. the only energy type Dead reign zombies were immune to were lasers. End of Story.

Incorrect.

Not even the Mass Grave Zombies -an amalgamation of dozens to hundreds of zombies all melted together and acting as one -have Supernatural Strength.

IIRC, Regular Zombies have 2X the body's original (human, un-augmented) P.S. attribute.
IIRC, Large/Obese/Musclebound Zombies have 3X the body's original (human, un-augmented) P.S. attribute.
While the 'Mass Grave Variant' Zombies have separate (2X human, un-augmented P.S. attribute) stats for each of its many, many limbs and heads.

In fact, I don't think that you can find so much as even a single instance of ANYTHING in the Dead Reign setting -not even anti-tank rounds, missiles, or high explosives -as causing Mega Damage, much less the hand-to-hand attacks of the zombies.
The game is explicitly designed for Normal Joes in a non-magical, non High Science tech world (i.e., just like ours) to have a chance at defeating these things, and all that would go right out the window if mere humans in an otherwise mundane, all-S.D.C. world -even in body armor -had to go up against creatures that could inflict Mega-Damage with their punches, bites, and kicks.
Nor would hiding in anything short of a reinforced bunker save the average human from a zombie horde that could simply and quickly punch (S.D.C.) buildings into dust if they sensed that humans were in there, or just saw them go in.

My first printing of Dead Reign says on page 55 in addition to lasers that 'ion beams, particle beams and most other energy weapons do NO damage to zombies'.

Page 55 refers to the augments these Zombies would get upon reaching Rifts Earth, which include an SDC/Hit Point-to MDC conversion and similar invulnerabilities as ordinary zombies; it would be in-game logical (and out-of-game sensible) to give them an upgrade in the magic-rich, high-tech, MDC environment of Rifts Earth.

[Tor]

Since we know they don't get SNPS we should be wondering... is there a way to give it to them? Can they be enchanted? Transformed by other processes? Could something almost human like a Mock Zombie retain enough of a soul to be Xombified by Nxla?

seems there is a huge amount of -retardedness- in both the dead reign in and rifter versions... since lasers are heat weapons

We shouldn't blame DR, lasers and fire have been in different categories since Bursters in Rifts.

Page 55 refers to the augments these Zombies would get upon reaching Rifts Earth, which include an SDC/Hit Point-to MDC conversion and similar invulnerabilities as ordinary zombies; it would be in-game logical (and out-of-game sensible) to give them an upgrade in the magic-rich, high-tech, MDC environment of Rifts Earth.

Same, which is why, much as they're immune to SDC weapons in Rifts, I think their immunity to laser/ion/particle should only apply in Rifts, based on where it's mentioned.

So if they came to NB, N&SS or HU, lasers would chop them up.

[VR Dragon]

Here is the whole problem with these zombies things. From reading this post you would think these zombies could survive in the blazing atomic furnace that is the sun. I would just stick to the zombies as low threat cannon fodder creatures and not undead superman

[Tor]

you would think these zombies could survive in the blazing atomic furnace that is the sun.

Where on earth do you get this idea? Zombies are harmed by fire.

How does "sun" fit under "Laser, ion beams, particle beams and most other energy weapons" ?

Fire, and clearly also plasma, would hurt them.

[VR Dragon]

Well lets walk down the list...

Ion energy is a flow of electrons so it is basically lightning. Lightning causes fires by heat generation. But these zombies are immune.

Partical beams disentergrate matter but they are immune to this.

Lasers are heat beams basically and start fires by heat but zombies are immune to this energy too.

cold attacks could make zombie pops no damage but stop them for a time.

Spacing them is not going to kill them.

normal guns wont hurt them unless to blow their head off i think.

Hacking them to bits works too i think.

Plasma and fire hurts zombies you say but then why don't lasers which burn and cut, p-beams which tear them apart atom by atom, electricity for half damage at least, and the like. Given all of that a energy blast that is vague at saying what it does energy wise would be open to debate. And the sun is not a ball of fire so some people might feel the need to quibble.

Thats what causes my issues with making zombies immune to stuff like that. Its a dead body that walks around eating people... its not a greater form of undead its just a robot so some special qualities are understandable but limits need o be drawn someplace.

[eliakon]

Well lets walk down the list...

Ion energy is a flow of electrons so it is basically lightning. Lightning causes fires by heat generation. But these zombies are immune.

Your trying to put real world physics in the game here... Unfortunately in Palladium 'ion beams' and 'electrical attacks' are not the same

Partical beams disentergrate matter but they are immune to this.

Well in HU they do, as well as BTS1. Its less clear if they do in the other lines. But again this is not relevant....they get an explicit immunity so....they are immune.

Lasers are heat beams basically and start fires by heat but zombies are immune to this energy too.

No laser beams are light beams, that in the Real World cause damage by energy transfer that results in heating. In Palladium land though they are 'light attacks'

cold attacks could make zombie pops no damage but stop them for a time.

Yep again fantasy physics, so 'immune' means 'immune'

Spacing them is not going to kill them.

Nope, though it will inconvenience them since they cant fly, and most are to stupid to use maneuver thrusters

normal guns wont hurt them unless to blow their head off i think.

pretty much. You can blow them to bits, but unless the brain is destroyed it can eventually come back

Hacking them to bits works too i think.

as long as you get the brain

Plasma and fire hurts zombies you say but then why don't lasers which burn and cut, p-beams which tear them apart atom by atom, electricity for half damage at least, and the like. Given all of that a energy blast that is vague at saying what it does energy wise would be open to debate. And the sun is not a ball of fire so some people might feel the need to quibble.

Thats what causes my issues with making zombies immune to stuff like that. Its a dead body that walks around eating people... its not a greater form of undead its just a robot so some special qualities are understandable but limits need o be drawn someplace.

they do have limits, clearly drawn. Headshot, Fire, Magic.....If you don't like the official version you are free to make your own House Rules of course. But as written they don't take damage from mundane attacks....because they don't. Palladium Physics =/= Real World Physics.

[VR Dragon]

Science fiction weapons are based on quasi science so it follows some basic shared properties.

I also know palladium well since i have enjoyed playing since 1994 or so. And so I can safely say like i would to anyone else..."just because" is not an answer unto itself.

So there isn't a good grounds for these zombies to be so different and thus immune to things except as a proverbial middle finger to a player. Oh sorry you shoot the zombie in the head with your laser.. p-beam..ion blast..etc but it doesn't effect it.If a hole in its head kills it then quibbling over what can put that hole there is just really stupid.

Might as well make them mega sexy sparkling zombies, some people might embrace the changes and others will scratch their heads and ask why?

[eliakon]

Science fiction weapons are based on quasi science so it follows some basic shared properties.

I also know palladium well since i have enjoyed playing since 1994 or so. And so I can safely say like i would to anyone else..."just because" is not an answer unto itself.

So there isn't a good grounds for these zombies to be so different and thus immune to things except as a proverbial middle finger to a player. Oh sorry you shoot the zombie in the head with your laser.. p-beam..ion blast..etc but it doesn't effect it.If a hole in its head kills it then quibbling over what can put that hole there is just really stupid.

Might as well make them mega sexy sparkling zombies, some people might embrace the changes and others will scratch their heads and ask why?

I think the logical reason is 'Its magic' Supernatural stuff follows its supernatural logic. I don't know about you but I think that animated corpses that feed on life energy are a pretty good definition of supernatural.

[VR Dragon]

Well yes they feed off ppe fine. So we going to make psi stalkers immune to energy to?

[eliakon]

Well yes they feed off ppe fine. So we going to make psi stalkers immune to energy to?

Um no. The point is that when you have supernatural things (like say walking corpses that eat souls, and can UNDECAY....) that there will be supernatural effects (like say...ignore lasers...)
When you bring Magic and the Supernatural into a discussion 'realism' tends to go out the window

[Tor]

If you don't like the official version you are free to make your own House Rules of course.

That or just use the Plague Zombies on page 104 of Shadows of Light.

I kind of want to know what would happen if they crossed path with the Dreign Zombies.

[VR Dragon]

The god zombies would eat the lesser imitations.

[Tor]

Not sure which you're calling God-Zombies. From what I've seen of Brulyx's stats in the Rifter, I'm doubtful he could match even one Vampire Intelligence much less the Dark + multiple Vamp AIs behind the Strigoi. Also pretty sure the Strigoi masters could trump the enhanced Dreign zombies and the Plague Zombies would stand a decent chance against slouchers.

[VR Dragon]

Not sure which you're calling God-Zombies. From what I've seen of Brulyx's stats in the Rifter, I'm doubtful he could match even one Vampire Intelligence much less the Dark + multiple Vamp AIs behind the Strigoi. Also pretty sure the Strigoi masters could trump the enhanced Dreign zombies and the Plague Zombies would stand a decent chance against slouchers.

Sorry i was making a snarky insult about the Dead Reign zombies (god zombies) since these undead regenerating energy immune (except fire...fire bad..) Cold immune ppe vampires flesh eaters.

I am not overly familiar with the other zombies.

[cornholioprime]

Well lets walk down the list...

Ion energy is a flow of electrons so it is basically lightning. Lightning causes fires by heat generation. But these zombies are immune.

Partical beams disentergrate matter but they are immune to this.

Lasers are heat beams basically and start fires by heat but zombies are immune to this energy too.

cold attacks could make zombie pops no damage but stop them for a time.

Spacing them is not going to kill them.

normal guns wont hurt them unless to blow their head off i think.

Hacking them to bits works too i think.

Plasma and fire hurts zombies you say but then why don't lasers which burn and cut, p-beams which tear them apart atom by atom, electricity for half damage at least, and the like. Given all of that a energy blast that is vague at saying what it does energy wise would be open to debate. And the sun is not a ball of fire so some people might feel the need to quibble.

Thats what causes my issues with making zombies immune to stuff like that. Its a dead body that walks around eating people... its not a greater form of undead its just a robot so some special qualities are understandable but limits need o be drawn someplace.

Ordinary corpses respond to physical effects that you speak of, not the supernaturally-animated Undead in the Palladium setting.

The very fact that these things are self-ambulatory decomposing flesh should tell you from the very start that they don't conform to the rules of biology or physics or logic; why, then, should you expect their invulnerabilities to make sense?

[Tor]

The RAW does only apply the energy weapon immunities in settings where they turn MDC, so high-tech weapons taken to SDC settings would harm them fine

Plague Zombies in SoL are monsters and would pretty much tear through the Dead Reign guys.

BrulyxZombies are definitely stronger (on average, Slouchers of humans who had PS less than 7 would be weaker then Plaguers) and are going to be inflicting more in unarmed combat, so they have an advantage there. Plaguers won't get a PS bonus on hand to hand attacks, and roll the same die as a sloucher's claw. BrulyxZombies also have the advantage of their brutal head-butt attack, which Plaguers lack, and is better than the punch.

Plaguers even the odds slightly in weapons combat though. Their supernatural strength means they add their damage die to weapons (something people with normal strength can't do) making them the equal of zombies with PS 16 to 21 when using weapons.

Brulies also have an edge in speed, a sloucher will at minimum tie a Plaguer, and they will usually maneuver them, and that's not taking into account the superior Flesh/Fast variants. Heck, the fastest Crawler can even tie a Plaguer.

The main reason why I think Plaguers are on top is durability. The SDC of a Plaguer is greater than the sum of the maximum HP+SDC a Sloucher can have (69). PLUS, at minimum roll, Plaguers regen more in a single melee (even going by the minimum roll) what (even assuming best rolls) a Brulie could regen in 10 minutes.

If we take a 1-on-1 fight and assume all attacks strike and are not defended (simultaneous) an average sloucher (PS 21 is double 10.5, the 'typical' stats are wrong) will inflict, if head-butting, 10 damage per attack and 30 damage per round. This means they'll likely need 3 melees to kill the Plaguer, and during that time, the Plaguer will probably have regenerated 21 points of damage, requiring an additional melee to finish the job.

Although... Brulies DO have a natural AR and I don't think Plague Zombies do, so that detail could turn the tide. The stats on Plaguers are pretty lacking in detail though. I don't even know what their APM is, if they retain the bonuses they had during life, etc.

If Plague zombies could be coordinated to do Guerilla warfare to best utilize their regen, they would win, but since they probably won't fight that way, the advantage is minimal and probably won't save them, sadly. Were there a smart Strigoi coordinating their movements they would tear up Brulies, but without that, sadly no.

Although even with a Strigoi coordinator, the gun-using abilities of thinkers and flanking tactics of Fast Attackers might still be an equalizer.