Anther problem with AOE wards.

[Thinyser]

So under the description on how AOE wards work it says that the effects do not follow you out of the AOE radius. I understand why this would be the case on Fire, Energy, Death, Agony and such because they all have a damage or something that happens each melee for so many melees, but what about things like blind, charm, despair? So the character affected is blinded, charmed, despaired, and then stumbles out of the area and can see again is not charmed is not despairing? By the book that's how I read. Intended to be this way or just another PB error?

[Nekira Sudacne]

That is how it works, yes. Wards are not curses, they just make life miserable until you leave the warded area (or kill you, one or the other)

[Thinyser]

That is how it works, yes. Wards are not curses, they just make life miserable until you leave the warded area (or kill you, one or the other)

Ok I have more time now so lets explain this better so that people grasp what I'm trying to get at. Not just for you Nekira, just wanted my thoughts to be clear to everyone.

The conditions have a set duration of 1 melee per level of the diabolist. Most are "does X damage per melee for X number of melees" some are "causes X non damaging disability for X number of melees". Now ANY of these if placed on an object as projection by infliction will continue to zap the triggering person (talking damage here) for the duration of the ward even if they run/fly far away, and any of the non damage conditions would of course continue to affect the triggering person also, despite distance since its a single magical impulse that afflicts them with their ailment. Why then does the AOE which widens the triggering area make it so the duration no longer matters?

I can kinda see the damage ones ending at a boundary because it could be argued that at the end of each melee the ward tries to send out another zap of magic energy and if the person is out of range they dont get zapped. However it doesn't do this when the ward is not AOE because there is no range only duration so I'm not really sure this argument is valid. However the non damaging ones it makes NO sense to have them end at the AOE boundary since the ward sends out a single impulse of magical energy that causes lasting effects for the duration. Trigger the ward and bam you're blind for X melees equal to the diabolist level. Leaving the area is a non factor as there is no repeat zapping.

[eliakon]

That is how it works, yes. Wards are not curses, they just make life miserable until you leave the warded area (or kill you, one or the other)

Ok I have more time now so lets explain this better so that people grasp what I'm trying to get at. Not just for you Nekira, just wanted my thoughts to be clear to everyone.

The conditions have a set duration of 1 melee per level of the diabolist. Most are "does X damage per melee for X number of melees" some are "causes X non damaging disability for X number of melees". Now ANY of these if placed on an object as projection by infliction will continue to zap the triggering person (talking damage here) for the duration of the ward even if they run/fly far away, and any of the non damage conditions would of course continue to affect the triggering person also, despite distance since its a single magical impulse that afflicts them with their ailment. Why then does the AOE which widens the triggering area make it so the duration no longer matters?

I can kinda see the damage ones ending at a boundary because it could be argued that at the end of each melee the ward tries to send out another zap of magic energy and if the person is out of range they dont get zapped. However it doesn't do this when the ward is not AOE because there is no range only duration so I'm not really sure this argument is valid. However the non damaging ones it makes NO sense to have them end at the AOE boundary since the ward sends out a single impulse of magical energy that causes lasting effects for the duration. Trigger the ward and bam you're blind for X melees equal to the diabolist level. Leaving the area is a non factor as there is no repeat zapping.

Everything in the area is targeted by the ward. Its functionally the same as if a zillion separate wards went off and zapped every single person/thing separately.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That is how it works, yes. Wards are not curses, they just make life miserable until you leave the warded area (or kill you, one or the other)

Ok I have more time now so lets explain this better so that people grasp what I'm trying to get at. Not just for you Nekira, just wanted my thoughts to be clear to everyone.

The conditions have a set duration of 1 melee per level of the diabolist. Most are "does X damage per melee for X number of melees" some are "causes X non damaging disability for X number of melees". Now ANY of these if placed on an object as projection by infliction will continue to zap the triggering person (talking damage here) for the duration of the ward even if they run/fly far away, and any of the non damage conditions would of course continue to affect the triggering person also, despite distance since its a single magical impulse that afflicts them with their ailment. Why then does the AOE which widens the triggering area make it so the duration no longer matters?

I can kinda see the damage ones ending at a boundary because it could be argued that at the end of each melee the ward tries to send out another zap of magic energy and if the person is out of range they dont get zapped. However it doesn't do this when the ward is not AOE because there is no range only duration so I'm not really sure this argument is valid. However the non damaging ones it makes NO sense to have them end at the AOE boundary since the ward sends out a single impulse of magical energy that causes lasting effects for the duration. Trigger the ward and bam you're blind for X melees equal to the diabolist level. Leaving the area is a non factor as there is no repeat zapping.

I would imagine to limit the power of AoE wards zapping pottentially zounds of people. It wasn't a mistake, I don't think, they deliberately chose to make AoE effects have a worse duration than regular wards to balance them out.

[Thinyser]

That is how it works, yes. Wards are not curses, they just make life miserable until you leave the warded area (or kill you, one or the other)

Ok I have more time now so lets explain this better so that people grasp what I'm trying to get at. Not just for you Nekira, just wanted my thoughts to be clear to everyone.

The conditions have a set duration of 1 melee per level of the diabolist. Most are "does X damage per melee for X number of melees" some are "causes X non damaging disability for X number of melees". Now ANY of these if placed on an object as projection by infliction will continue to zap the triggering person (talking damage here) for the duration of the ward even if they run/fly far away, and any of the non damage conditions would of course continue to affect the triggering person also, despite distance since its a single magical impulse that afflicts them with their ailment. Why then does the AOE which widens the triggering area make it so the duration no longer matters?

I can kinda see the damage ones ending at a boundary because it could be argued that at the end of each melee the ward tries to send out another zap of magic energy and if the person is out of range they dont get zapped. However it doesn't do this when the ward is not AOE because there is no range only duration so I'm not really sure this argument is valid. However the non damaging ones it makes NO sense to have them end at the AOE boundary since the ward sends out a single impulse of magical energy that causes lasting effects for the duration. Trigger the ward and bam you're blind for X melees equal to the diabolist level. Leaving the area is a non factor as there is no repeat zapping.

I would imagine to limit the power of AoE wards zapping potentially zounds of people. It wasn't a mistake, I don't think, they deliberately chose to make AoE effects have a worse duration than regular wards to balance them out.

So if thats the case any halfway intelligent player that gets zapped by an AOE ward for either damage or disability would just take a single step back and boom they're fine again (other than the single hit of damage from pain or fire or death or instant of blindness or despair, etc). Wait a few min until you are confident that the duration has elapsed and enter the area again. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Combining AOE with the alarm ward is probably one of the most common applications, would you say that once the AOE sound alarm is triggered that it stops the sound the instant the intruder leaves the AOE? Or that the sound continues for the 2 min/level of the diabolist as listed? Seems to me if it were the former a wary thief/adventurer would jump back out of the AOE and nearly instantly silence the whooping alarm and if that was the case he could again just wait it out knowing that the alarm was already sprung and wouldn't spring again unless it had a permanency ward attached to it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That is how it works, yes. Wards are not curses, they just make life miserable until you leave the warded area (or kill you, one or the other)

Ok I have more time now so lets explain this better so that people grasp what I'm trying to get at. Not just for you Nekira, just wanted my thoughts to be clear to everyone.

The conditions have a set duration of 1 melee per level of the diabolist. Most are "does X damage per melee for X number of melees" some are "causes X non damaging disability for X number of melees". Now ANY of these if placed on an object as projection by infliction will continue to zap the triggering person (talking damage here) for the duration of the ward even if they run/fly far away, and any of the non damage conditions would of course continue to affect the triggering person also, despite distance since its a single magical impulse that afflicts them with their ailment. Why then does the AOE which widens the triggering area make it so the duration no longer matters?

I can kinda see the damage ones ending at a boundary because it could be argued that at the end of each melee the ward tries to send out another zap of magic energy and if the person is out of range they dont get zapped. However it doesn't do this when the ward is not AOE because there is no range only duration so I'm not really sure this argument is valid. However the non damaging ones it makes NO sense to have them end at the AOE boundary since the ward sends out a single impulse of magical energy that causes lasting effects for the duration. Trigger the ward and bam you're blind for X melees equal to the diabolist level. Leaving the area is a non factor as there is no repeat zapping.

I would imagine to limit the power of AoE wards zapping potentially zounds of people. It wasn't a mistake, I don't think, they deliberately chose to make AoE effects have a worse duration than regular wards to balance them out.

So if thats the case any halfway intelligent player that gets zapped by an AOE ward for either damage or disability would just take a single step back and boom they're fine again (other than the single hit of damage from pain or fire or death or instant of blindness or despair, etc). Wait a few min until you are confident that the duration has elapsed and enter the area again. It just doesn't make sense to me.

It makes perfect sense, if it was written with the intention of area of effect wards being catagorically less effective than full, narrowly targeted wards. it's designed to incentivize presice placement of normal wards throughout the room, not just slapping down AoE wards to one phrase and calling it a day

[Thinyser]

It makes perfect sense, if it was written with the intention of area of effect wards being catagorically less effective than full, narrowly targeted wards. it's designed to incentivize presice placement of normal wards throughout the room, not just slapping down AoE wards to one phrase and calling it a day

You say that but are also ignoring this:

Combining AOE with the alarm ward is probably one of the most common applications, would you say that once the AOE sound alarm is triggered that it stops the sound the instant the intruder leaves the AOE? Or that the sound continues for the 2 min/level of the diabolist as listed? Seems to me if it were the former a wary thief/adventurer would jump back out of the AOE and nearly instantly silence the whooping alarm and if that was the case he could again just wait it out knowing that the alarm was already sprung and wouldn't spring again unless it had a permanency ward attached to it.

So are you ignoring this because you see it doesn't make sense that one of the most common ward combinations is almost totally useless, or another reason?

[Grug]

I tend to agree with Nekira on this subject. There is no reason for a ward to keep affecting someone once they're outside of its range of influence.

As to the alarm it would keep going off, at least imo. Since the magic is still active In the AoE, and the trigger for the alarm wasn't someone being within the AoE affect it was triggering the ward.

All the effects of the ward aren't attacking someone particular, but instead the area around the ward itself. Hence why affects only stay inside the AoE.

[Thinyser]

I tend to agree with Nekira on this subject. There is no reason for a ward to keep affecting someone once they're outside of its range of influence.

As to the alarm it would keep going off, at least imo. Since the magic is still active In the AoE, and the trigger for the alarm wasn't someone being within the AoE affect it was triggering the ward.

All the effects of the ward aren't attacking someone particular, but instead the area around the ward itself. Hence why affects only stay inside the AoE.

Then wouldn't the sound end at the AOE too?

[Nekira Sudacne]

It makes perfect sense, if it was written with the intention of area of effect wards being catagorically less effective than full, narrowly targeted wards. it's designed to incentivize presice placement of normal wards throughout the room, not just slapping down AoE wards to one phrase and calling it a day

You say that but are also ignoring this:

Combining AOE with the alarm ward is probably one of the most common applications, would you say that once the AOE sound alarm is triggered that it stops the sound the instant the intruder leaves the AOE? Or that the sound continues for the 2 min/level of the diabolist as listed? Seems to me if it were the former a wary thief/adventurer would jump back out of the AOE and nearly instantly silence the whooping alarm and if that was the case he could again just wait it out knowing that the alarm was already sprung and wouldn't spring again unless it had a permanency ward attached to it.

So are you ignoring this because you see it doesn't make sense that one of the most common ward combinations is almost totally useless, or another reason?

Actually, I ignored it because somehow my reply to the other half got eaten, somehow. I blame jeff

More seriously, I don't see how being able to back out of the area of alarm makes the alarm useless. after all, the alarm stopping wouldn't negate the activation.

So it's like this:

Theif steps into a warded room, alarm goes off
Summoner: Crap! the alarm went off, I better hurry to that room
Theif: jumps back out of the warded area
Summoner: "And now the theif is out of that room. I better hurry before he gets away

I mean, why exactly would shutting down an alarm make the alarm useless. do you really NEED it going off constantly to know that someone tripped it? someone tripped it, your GOING to investigate the area, weather or not it shuts off. it's not like you'd just roll over and go back to sleep, after all.

In short, the fact that the alarm ward would shut off after a moment in no way hinders it's effectiveness. it tells you you need to check out that area, which is exactly what you'd do if the alarm kept going anyway

[Thinyser]

It makes perfect sense, if it was written with the intention of area of effect wards being catagorically less effective than full, narrowly targeted wards. it's designed to incentivize presice placement of normal wards throughout the room, not just slapping down AoE wards to one phrase and calling it a day

You say that but are also ignoring this:

Combining AOE with the alarm ward is probably one of the most common applications, would you say that once the AOE sound alarm is triggered that it stops the sound the instant the intruder leaves the AOE? Or that the sound continues for the 2 min/level of the diabolist as listed? Seems to me if it were the former a wary thief/adventurer would jump back out of the AOE and nearly instantly silence the whooping alarm and if that was the case he could again just wait it out knowing that the alarm was already sprung and wouldn't spring again unless it had a permanency ward attached to it.

So are you ignoring this because you see it doesn't make sense that one of the most common ward combinations is almost totally useless, or another reason?

Actually, I ignored it because somehow my reply to the other half got eaten, somehow. I blame jeff

More seriously, I don't see how being able to back out of the area of alarm makes the alarm useless. after all, the alarm stopping wouldn't negate the activation.

So it's like this:

Theif steps into a warded room, alarm goes off
Summoner: Crap! the alarm went off, I better hurry to that room
Theif: jumps back out of the warded area
Summoner: "And now the theif is out of that room. I better hurry before he gets away

I mean, why exactly would shutting down an alarm make the alarm useless. do you really NEED it going off constantly to know that someone tripped it? someone tripped it, your GOING to investigate the area, weather or not it shuts off. it's not like you'd just roll over and go back to sleep, after all.

In short, the fact that the alarm ward would shut off after a moment in no way hinders it's effectiveness. it tells you you need to check out that area, which is exactly what you'd do if the alarm kept going anyway

Well see we are not talking about the silent one that goes directly to the diabolist that set the ward alarm we are talking about the "Sound alarm" which creates a loud siren like noise that can be heard at a radius of 100' per level of the diabolist. Lets say you are a guard trained by the royal diabolist to listen for this very unmistakable siren sound and you are off doing your duties walking the grounds or maybe on break in the guard's mess hall having some grub, and you hear a "whoo" type noise. See you are waiting to hear a loud siren like noise that continues to go off and then going to the area where it is loudest (the warded area) to find your intruder, so hearing a single "Whoop" of the siren cut off at "Who" might not even get your attention depending on what other noises are present maybe it just sounded like a hoot of laughter from the others in the room or a chair squeaking on a slate floor, or if you're out on the grounds it could have been a bird call. People being the generally unperceptive creatures we are could very VERY easily miss the shortened sound completely and if the hear it but are expecting to hear a sustained whoooo-whoooo-whoooo noise when a ward alarm is triggered and this doesn't match our expectation then we are likely to attribute it to something else.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The solution to that is to train your guards with the flaw, making sure they can recognise the sound by repeatedly laying alarm wards then triggering them for a breif instant. I don't think it's a big of an issue as you seem to think of. I would imagine even a single WOOO is unmistakable for anything else and use that to explain it.

[Thinyser]

So I agree there are always workarounds but my point being is that there is no reason other than arbitrary game balance that makes sense to me to explain why AOE wards, that are designated to be triggered by somebody entering an area, should behave any differently than a regular ward so far as duration of non repeated strikes is concerned. Blinded by a ward is (IMO) blinded by a ward regardless of how it was triggered and where you are in relation to the ward. The non-damaging wards do not keep zapping you you repeatedly like any of the damaging wards so I see no reason why the standard duration would be negated simply because you left the area where you were zapped, or why an alarm would stop once it was triggered (or which has not been addressed, why the alarm sound would travel outside the AOE while other ward effects would not as suggested by Grug).

IMO the requirement for them to be rooted to one area of effect is limit enough. It means no AOE on your spell book, on your backpack on your purse etc.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So I agree there are always workarounds but my point being is that there is no reason other than arbitrary game balance that makes sense to me to explain why AOE wards, that are designated to be triggered by somebody entering an area, should behave any differently than a regular ward so far as duration of non repeated strikes is concerned. Blinded by a ward is (IMO) blinded by a ward regardless of how it was triggered and where you are in relation to the ward. The non-damaging wards do not keep zapping you you repeatedly like any of the damaging wards so I see no reason why the standard duration would be negated simply because you left the area where you were zapped, or why an alarm would stop once it was triggered (or which has not been addressed, why the alarm sound would travel outside the AOE while other ward effects would not as suggested by Grug).

IMO the requirement for them to be rooted to one area of effect is limit enough. It means no AOE on your spell book, on your backpack on your purse etc.

In this case, I'd say balance is enough reason. otherwise, why would you ever NOT use AoE wards instead of regular wards on stationary things?

[Thinyser]

So I agree there are always workarounds but my point being is that there is no reason other than arbitrary game balance that makes sense to me to explain why AOE wards, that are designated to be triggered by somebody entering an area, should behave any differently than a regular ward so far as duration of non repeated strikes is concerned. Blinded by a ward is (IMO) blinded by a ward regardless of how it was triggered and where you are in relation to the ward. The non-damaging wards do not keep zapping you you repeatedly like any of the damaging wards so I see no reason why the standard duration would be negated simply because you left the area where you were zapped, or why an alarm would stop once it was triggered (or which has not been addressed, why the alarm sound would travel outside the AOE while other ward effects would not as suggested by Grug).

IMO the requirement for them to be rooted to one area of effect is limit enough. It means no AOE on your spell book, on your backpack on your purse etc.

In this case, I'd say balance is enough reason. otherwise, why would you ever NOT use AoE wards instead of regular wards on stationary things?

All sorts of reason, like you want to have guests over and not have to worry that if they walk down the hall a little too close to your warded chest and cross over the AOE boundary. Or you want a maid/butler to be able to clean a room but not get into some chest or touch a statue. You want your armory master and soldiers to come and go from the armory but not touch your grandpa's sword. Etc. In any of these cases you would use a standard (nonAOE) ward. Also even if its only 1PPE AOE wards are more expensive to energize.

[Tor]

So if thats the case any halfway intelligent player that gets zapped by an AOE ward for either damage or disability would just take a single step back and boom they're fine again

Not necessarily, it depends on how the ward is triggered. Not all AoE effects are triggered merely by entering an area. They may be triggered by touching an object in the center of the area, or manually by a Diabolist, or by using a trigger-ward sequence they can even be triggered by touching things outside the AoE. They could be chained together to affect a larger summed area too.

Plus a warded area might be in a place you can't step back out of, like if it was at the bottom of a narrow pit. Perhaps one of the wards you triggered was a fire bolt that destroyed the ladder you used to descend into the pit?

we are talking about the "Sound alarm" which creates a loud siren like noise that can be heard at a radius of 100' per level of the diabolist. Lets say you are a guard trained by the royal diabolist to listen for this very unmistakable siren sound and you are off doing your duties walking the grounds or maybe on break in the guard's mess hall having some grub, and you hear a "whoo" type noise. See you are waiting to hear a loud siren like noise that continues to go off and then going to the area where it is loudest (the warded area) to find your intruder, so hearing a single "Whoop" of the siren cut off at "Who" might not even get your attention depending on what other noises are present maybe it just sounded like a hoot of laughter from the others in the room or a chair squeaking on a slate floor, or if you're out on the grounds it could have been a bird call. People being the generally unperceptive creatures we are could very VERY easily miss the shortened sound completely and if the hear it but are expecting to hear a sustained whoooo-whoooo-whoooo noise when a ward alarm is triggered and this doesn't match our expectation then we are likely to attribute it to something else.

This is probably why a Diabolist, in addition to doing some kind of overall-area alarm, may place individual wards on the entrances into a room, or rely on those entirely.

If the only way into the room is a single door then this is pretty easy. The only situation you'd really need area effect wards is if you have some kind of entrance-bypassers threatening the area, like teleporters, portalers, phasers, etc.

[Thinyser]

Good point Tor with the fact that AOE wards can be triggered by a trigger ward that is not triggered until directly touched. This would mean that they would be well inside the AOE before the AOE ward was triggered.

[Grug]

Hiya Thinyser, I don't have my book on me so this will be from memory. There is only one alarm ward (if I remember correctly) that emits a sound and it can be heard for 100 ft per level, and last 2 min per level. Here are a two examples of how I always perceived wards to work according to the book.

Example one: Gnimisch the Thief is about to enter a room with a treasure chest in the middle. As soon as she enters the room, she sets off the sound alarm ward and it can be heard from a 100 ft away. She runs back out of the room to a shadowy alcove and waits. After two minutes the whopping sound stops and she reenters the room. And nothing happens. So she makes her way to the chest and tries to open it, as she opens it a AoE blind ward is triggered, she fails her saving throw and is now blind. She stumbles out of the 10 ft radius and her sight returns. She waits five minute and goes back to the chest, since the AoE ward is still active she must roll a saving throw again.

Example two: Gnimisch spots the chest and enters the room, nothing happens so she goes and opens the chest. By opening the chest she triggers a Ward Sequence. First one is a Sound alarm ward which alerts any guards within a 100 ft radius., six seconds later a AoE burning pain ward is triggered six seconds after that a AoE blind ward is triggered. As long as she stays in the 10 ft radius she will be affected by both the burning pain and blind ward. If she leaves the affected area the wards will stop affecting her, if she decides to reenter the area before the wards duration is over she must make her saving throw again or suffer the consequence, because the wards are still active. But regardless if she's in the 10 ft radius or not the alarm is blaring away, since the ward has been triggered. Another way to look at is if there was a forth ward that was a AoE color blue. The chest would turn blue and so would Gnimisch if she was within the 10 ft radius, if she left the area she's no longer blue but the chest is. If she pulls the chest out of the area it would stop being blue. If her shoe fell off when she was moving the chest and is within the area it is now blue.

Of course there is quite a few different ways you could set the wards up, according to the book though the only wards that can be triggered by entering an area are alarm wards. This means you can not have a AoE blind ward that is triggered by someone entering the area, of course you could have a AoE trigger alarm ward that sets off a AoE blind ward once someone enters the area. But the area itself can never be the trigger for wards other then alarm wards. So with this in mind think of AoE wards more as protection circles which only gives you a bonus if you're within the circle. Leave the circle lose the bonus, jump back in get it back. There are also a few cloud spells which only affect you if you're within the cloud and its negatives vanish once you leave the cloud, most notably Anti-magic cloud.

[Thinyser]

Ok Grug, so here's the deal wards without the AOE project their effect against the person who triggered them regardless of the distance that target travels after triggering the ward, for the entire duration. AOE wards go only to the AOE boundary BUT continue to count for the duration even though no effect is going on inside the boundary to experience the effects... So would an alarm (sound) ward combined with AOE project it's effect (sound) beyond the AOE or not? And if the person who triggers the AOE sound alarm leaves the AOE would the sound continue ?

If the effect extends beyond the AOE while the trigger person is inside, why is this ward unique?
If the effect continues inside the area even once nobody is inside then why is this different than the others?

If the effect IS contained inside then why ever bother with an AOE alarm sound?

[Grug]

Well my smart arse response would be. 'cause it's the rules and I agree with them.'
It's kind of true though, lets say this thread was about me saying, "I think boxing should be a W.P." and you believe is should stay as a physical skill. No matter what we say the rule is clear and even though it makes sense to one of us and doesn't make sense to the other. It remains as it is, until it gets house ruled and then the whole thread was just for fun.

But I do understand where you are coming from, so I will once again try to force you to join the dark side of understanding Palladiums rule/mind set.

So would an alarm (sound) ward combined with AOE project it's effect (sound) beyond the AOE or not? And if the person who triggers the AOE sound alarm leaves the AOE would the sound continue ?

The anwser to both questions is yes.

If the effect extends beyond the AOE while the trigger person is inside, why is this ward unique?

The alarm ward is unique in that the trigger of the ward is entering the area. So it would be no different then if the alarm ward was on the chest and it was not a AoE ward. But instead of just the chest having the ward, the whole room does. So look at it as one huge ward and not a AoE ward.

The way the book has it written, it's like having two AoE wards, first there is Alarm AoE and second there is AoE inflict. Do you see what the difference is?

If the effect continues inside the area even once nobody is inside then why is this different than the others?

Because it's unique. It's the only AoE ward where the effect comes before the area portion.

If the effect IS contained inside then why ever bother with an AOE alarm sound?

You never would. Hence why it works in its own special way.

The reason the other effects do not move outside of the circle is because of the area portion happening before the effect portion. So now it's more of a magic circle than a AoE ward.

Do you agree it makes sense for the summoner to only get the bonuses from a circle, while they are within the circle?

[Thinyser]

Well my smart arse response would be. 'cause it's the rules and I agree with them.'
It's kind of true though, lets say this thread was about me saying, "I think boxing should be a W.P." and you believe is should stay as a physical skill. No matter what we say the rule is clear and even though it makes sense to one of us and doesn't make sense to the other. It remains as it is, until it gets house ruled and then the whole thread was just for fun.

See I wouldn't argue that because Boxing fits as a Physical skill since it follows the same pattern of other physical skills. Having the Alarm ward treated differently from ALL the other wards when it A: this supposed difference in function isn't specified the alarm description OR in the AOE description, and B: that it makes no internally consistent or logical sense to have the alarm ward reach beyond its trigger AOE while none of the other wards cannot do the same, doesn't follow the pattern and so I have to wonder why the AOE system works how it does.

But I do understand where you are coming from, so I will once again try to force you to join the dark side of understanding Palladiums rule/mind set.

So would an alarm (sound) ward combined with AOE project it's effect (sound) beyond the AOE or not? And if the person who triggers the AOE sound alarm leaves the AOE would the sound continue ?

The anwser to both questions is yes.

Why though would this ward be treated different than ALL the other wards even when it never states that it is in the alarm ward description or in the AOE ward description?

If the effect extends beyond the AOE while the trigger person is inside, why is this ward unique?

The alarm ward is unique in that the trigger of the ward is entering the area. So it would be no different then if the alarm ward was on the chest and it was not a AoE ward. But instead of just the chest having the ward, the whole room does. So look at it as one huge ward and not a AoE ward.

Any ward sequence can be triggered when somebody enters the AOE.

The way the book has it written, it's like having two AoE wards, first there is Alarm AoE and second there is AoE inflict. Do you see what the difference is?

Yes and No. The "AOE Alarm" ward phrase is going to go off when somebody enters the area the same as an "AOE protection by infliction Death" is going to go off when somebody enters the AOE area. The difference is that you are stating that the AOE alarm ward would send its effect beyond the area of effect where NO other AOE wards will do that.

If you are arguing that you need the ward phrase to be "AOE trigger Alarm" or "AOE trigger AOE inflict death" then why have a protection by infliction ward? Say you were trying to protect an item without the AOE You would use "protection by infliction death" not "trigger inflict death". The most elegant and economical way is "AOE protection by infliction Death". It seems pretty clear in the ward phrase section that Alarm+AOE can be a two ward phrase and one can pretty safely assume that it means that entry into the AOE is going to set off the alarm.

If the effect continues inside the area even once nobody is inside then why is this different than the others?

Because it's unique. It's the only AoE ward where the effect comes before the area portion.

It doesn't say its unique or imply its different in any way.

If the effect IS contained inside then why ever bother with an AOE alarm sound?

You never would. Hence why it works in its own special way.

Its not said to work different though and that's the problem.

The reason the other effects do not move outside of the circle is because of the area portion happening before the effect portion. So now it's more of a magic circle than a AoE ward.

You can put the AOE in several places in a ward phrase and get different effects. The book uses an example of

"trigger by condition: evil, to inflict with the condition of confusion, to the entire area (affect), means that only an "evil" being will "trigger"/activate the ward and that the magic unleashed or "inflicted" by the ward is magic "confusion." The confusion is an "area affect" magic so everybody within the radius around the warded item will be affected unless they each save vs ward magic."

AOE is only used for the effect not for the trigger. One could easily put the AOE at the beginning and get "any evil entering the area would set off the infliction of confusion to the entire area".

As I stated further above if you use the simple ward phrase of AOE+protection by infliction+death" the trigger is anybody entering the AOE protected area and death is inflicted on everyone inside the AOE. You don't need excess trigger phrases or another AOE ward. Sure you could use AOE+Trigger+inflict+AOE+death but this is more costly in Time to scribe or carve, material components, PPE, and physical area on the item the AOE is centered on which is not normally an issue but if you are wanting to add Permanence to the ward you have to have the entire phrase on your little hunk of demon/dragon bone. In essence there are more ways than one to get the same effect but the most elegant and economical one is probably the one that you will be trained to use and will WANT to use since it saves time, PPE, and materials. So there is a "right" way to construct a ward phrase.

And no, a AOE ward is NOT a magic circle. A ward is essentially a point source that can express its magic energy outward either to infinity or to a boarder delimited by the creator's level in the case of AOE wards. A circle is a previously delimited area (the drawn circle) which binds magic energy inside this confine and in some rare cases (like animate and control dead, Death) can be used to send this magic out into the world. But in all cases there must be someone INSIDE the circle to control it or to benefit/suffer from it. Nobody has to be INSIDE a ward to make it work.

The essence of my problem is that wards effects that are instant but that have lasting effects should not be removed from the effected person just because they left the area where they are initially zapped.

To me it makes as much sense as a if a person is caught in the affected area of a blinding flash or thunderclap spell and then they leave the AOE and are no longer suffering the penalties imposed by the spell. I know spells are not wards, wards are not spells and none of them relate to circles very well at all but wards do create spell like effects so this is as close an analogy as I can use in game.

Other than "Balance" I cannot see why an AOE ward blinded person who leaves the area where they were initially zapped by is no longer blind for the remaining normal duration.

Do you agree it makes sense for the summoner to only get the bonuses from a circle, while they are within the circle?

Sure. but Circles =/= wards and Summoners =/= Diabolists, so it has nothing to do with any argument regarding how wards work.

[Tor]

If the effect IS contained inside then why ever bother with an AOE alarm sound?

Perhaps you are sleeping in the room and want it to wake you up to kill an intruder but not wake up your family so that dealing with your bi-weekly assassination attempt doesn't disrupt their rest. Guards aren't always OUTSIDE the room, either.

[Thinyser]

Good one Tor I would have never thought of using an AOE ward like that. I would probably just use a regular ward on the door handle.

[Tor]

But then your baby will cry, and your elven wife will come to investigate since she's worried about you, and then Panath will garrote her.

[Thinyser]

But then your baby will cry, and your elven wife will come to investigate since she's worried about you, and then Panath will garrote her.

Assuming my wife sleeps in the same room then if the AOE alarm is in the room she will awaken anyhow.

[Tor]

No dude if assassins are after your elven bride then you send your elf wives to the other rooms. You only keep them in your room if it's ransomers after them.

[Grug]

Now I see where we disagree. My interpretation of the wording in the book is, only alarm wards can cover an area before the aoe ward is triggered. I get this from the first paragraph in the AoE ward section, where it says that Alarm wards can cover an area, anyone entering triggers the alarm. It is the only time in the AoE ward description that says a ward is set off be entering. Other times it says anyone entering the warded area is affected, which is not the same as triggering. Since there is no definitive answer in the book, guess we're both right.

A Sound Alarm wards effect is to make a sound that can be heard 100ft away, for two min per level.
Knowing this why do you feel it would be contained by the radius of the AoE ward? Since a AoE ward is not directed at anyone person but is directed at an area. And you have already acknowledged that the magic is still active in the area, even if no one is present in the radius of effect.

Oh and I really like the way you handle a debate Thinyser

[rustyspoon]

A Sound Alarm wards effect is to make a sound that can be heard 100ft away, for two min per level.
Knowing this why do you feel it would be contained by the radius of the AoE ward? Since a AoE ward is not directed at anyone person but is directed at an area. And you have already acknowledged that the magic is still active in the area, even if no one is present in the radius of effect.

To add to this, you can think of the Alarm ward as creating a giant, invisible airhorn. The airhorn is magic, but the sound it's making isn't. It is just sound so still works outside of the radius.

It would be like if there was an area effect ward that made it rain. The rain itself isn't magic, the act of causing the rain is magic. So it would only rain inside the ward radius, but the water on the floor would be puddling all over the place.

[Thinyser]

Now I see where we disagree. My interpretation of the wording in the book is, only alarm wards can cover an area before the aoe ward is triggered. I get this from the first paragraph in the AoE ward section, where it says that Alarm wards can cover an area, anyone entering triggers the alarm. It is the only time in the AoE ward description that says a ward is set off be entering. Other times it says anyone entering the warded area is affected, which is not the same as triggering. Since there is no definitive answer in the book, guess we're both right.

In the Alarm section is says "Alarms can protect an entire area when combined with an area affect
ward" so that and the fact that they use AOE+Alarm as a 2 ward phrase example in the "ward phrase" section. Also under the AOE section it states "Everyone entering the radius of magic influence will suffer the effects of the ward." It does not say "after the ward has already been triggered anyone else entering the radius will suffer the effects."

A Sound Alarm wards effect is to make a sound that can be heard 100ft away, for two min per level.
Knowing this why do you feel it would be contained by the radius of the AoE ward? Since a AoE ward is not directed at anyone person but is directed at an area. And you have already acknowledged that the magic is still active in the area, even if no one is present in the radius of effect.

Because all the other wards' effects are contained within the AOE limit once they are paired with an AOE. Say you put PBI+blind on a statue and a thief grabs it fails his save and is blinded. he can wander several hundered feet or maybe has a buddy leads him several hundred yards away and is still blinded. Attach an AOE ward to that same phrase and as soon as he leaves the AOE he is not blind anymore. If it does this for disabilities like blind why is damage done not removed when the affected person leaves the AOE?

Why is the alarm effect immune from being cut off/negated at the boarder? If you set off the PBI+light ward it says it creates a light as bright as 1 torch per level of the diabolist. Now it doesn't say WHAT this actually lights up but this . PBI will normally send fire, energy, death, blindness, etc. at the target (the person who triggered the ward) so does this mean that the person lights up like a torch or that the warded item lights up? Either way Non laser light radiates outward from its source and dissipates with distance (kinda like sound) so even without an AOE this can be assumed to actually light up an area as if it were a torch (and be visible from a distance like a torch), or 5 or 10 depending on the level of the diabolist. Now 5 or 10 torches all in one spot (be it the warded item or the target) is bound to be pretty bright and extend its light area out farther than a single torch. Furthermore there is no cut off and the item/person glowing might be visible for miles in darkness or may be carried/travel many hundreds of yards from where they were first lit up and stay lit until the duration expires. The consensus is that all condition wards' effects stop at the AOE boundary. By this logic once you add AOE all of a sudden the light either doesn't radiate past the radius or the person/item affected is no longer glowing once they/it leave the radius.

EDIT: sorry for the tangent but I think the light is a good example of how a normal force that radiates from the ward (light) is stopped at the AOE boarder if the consensus is to be believed. While somehow the sound from an alarm ward does not. Makes little sense to me.

Oh and I really like the way you handle a debate Thinyser

Thanks. I try to be logical/rational and as unbiased and open minded as I can be while still holding on to my argument, until proven wrong. I usually debate to better understand not to make others understand.

[Tor]

I think what happens when you leave the border is the alarm would stop sounding, but the sound will still have travelled however far it normally would...

[Thinyser]

I think what happens when you leave the border is the alarm would stop sounding, but the sound will still have travelled however far it normally would...

Then we are back to the savvy thief just backing up a step and having people very likely mistake the sound for something else. As I previously said

"Lets say you are a guard trained by the royal diabolist to listen for this very unmistakable siren sound and you are off doing your duties walking the grounds or maybe on break in the guard's mess hall having some grub, and you hear a "whoo" type noise. See you are waiting to hear a loud siren like noise that continues to go off and then going to the area where it is loudest (the warded area) to find your intruder, so hearing a single "Whoop" of the siren cut off at "Who" might not even get your attention depending on what other noises are present maybe it just sounded like a hoot of laughter from the others in the room or a chair squeaking on a slate floor, or if you're out on the grounds it could have been a bird call. People being the generally unperceptive creatures we are could very VERY easily miss the shortened sound completely, and if they hear it but are expecting to hear a sustained whoooo-whoooo-whoooo noise when a ward alarm is triggered and this doesn't match our expectation then we are likely to attribute it to something else."

Depending on the other sounds around and how close to the source they were I would make it a perception check to see if they even hear it and then another to see if they register it as the alarm going off and nearly immediately silenced.

Not to say that it would alway be totally ineffective but it would not be as effective as simply warding the door with the sound alarm rather than AOE. To me that means the AOE is flawed as it is meant to be more effective at area protection than simply warding the entrance. Somebody to go intangible and walk through the wall by-passing the door and still set off an AOE alarm, but if they back out and stop the alarm or if the alarm only goes as far as the AOE (like all the other AOE ward combos) then we are back to not very effective.

I don't think the AOE+Alarm ward is supposed to be truncated at the limit of the AOE but if you are going to apply the AOE rules equally you either have to say that it stops going off once the person leaves, OR that the sound doesn't travel beyond the AOE, and likely both since the other wards seem to exhibit this behavior. If you go by the AOE rules they will zap you if you enter but its not actively filling the AOE with gouts of fire or bolts of energy or whatnot so why would it fill the AOE with sound when nobody is inside to trigger it or to hear it.

[rustyspoon]

Not to say that it would alway be totally ineffective but it would not be as effective as simply warding the door with the sound alarm rather than AOE. To me that means the AOE is flawed as it is meant to be more effective at area protection than simply warding the entrance. Somebody to go intangible and walk through the wall by-passing the door and still set off an AOE alarm, but if they back out and stop the alarm or if the alarm only goes as far as the AOE (like all the other AOE ward combos) then we are back to not very effective.

I don't think the AOE+Alarm ward is supposed to be truncated at the limit of the AOE but if you are going to apply the AOE rules equally you either have to say that it stops going off once the person leaves, OR that the sound doesn't travel beyond the AOE, and likely both since the other wards seem to exhibit this behavior. If you go by the AOE rules they will zap you if you enter but its not actively filling the AOE with gouts of fire or bolts of energy or whatnot so why would it fill the AOE with sound when nobody is inside to trigger it or to hear it.

Wards work like landmines, not light switches. If you just stick your toe into the area of an AOE ward, it goes off and continues to go off for it's entire duration even if you leave. So the alarm keeps blaring even if the person leaves. If it's a blind ward, it's still active for the entire duration. So if someone steps into the area and triggers the blind ward, they are blinded. If they step back out, the can see again. However, if they stick their toe back in there before the duration is over, they're blind again.

You can continue to hear the sound from the alarm ward as the sound is not magic. The creation of sound is the magic.

The fact that you can escape the effects of AOE wards by leaving their radius is why it's generally a good idea to stick a ward phrase in there, so that a different ward will go off whenever someone steps inside.

[Thinyser]

Not to say that it would alway be totally ineffective but it would not be as effective as simply warding the door with the sound alarm rather than AOE. To me that means the AOE is flawed as it is meant to be more effective at area protection than simply warding the entrance. Somebody to go intangible and walk through the wall by-passing the door and still set off an AOE alarm, but if they back out and stop the alarm or if the alarm only goes as far as the AOE (like all the other AOE ward combos) then we are back to not very effective.

I don't think the AOE+Alarm ward is supposed to be truncated at the limit of the AOE but if you are going to apply the AOE rules equally you either have to say that it stops going off once the person leaves, OR that the sound doesn't travel beyond the AOE, and likely both since the other wards seem to exhibit this behavior. If you go by the AOE rules they will zap you if you enter but its not actively filling the AOE with gouts of fire or bolts of energy or whatnot so why would it fill the AOE with sound when nobody is inside to trigger it or to hear it.

Wards work like landmines, not light switches. If you just stick your toe into the area of an AOE ward, it goes off and continues to go off for it's entire duration even if you leave. So the alarm keeps blaring even if the person leaves. If it's a blind ward, it's still active for the entire duration. So if someone steps into the area and triggers the blind ward, they are blinded. If they step back out, the can see again. However, if they stick their toe back in there before the duration is over, they're blind again.

You can continue to hear the sound from the alarm ward as the sound is not magic. The creation of sound is the magic.

The fact that you can escape the effects of AOE wards by leaving their radius is why it's generally a good idea to stick a ward phrase in there, so that a different ward will go off whenever someone steps inside.

You read a lot into this and are applying your assumptions inconsistently. If the effect that is created is "normal" even though it was magic that created the effect why then does the damage stay with a person when they leave the area and blindness doesn't? It was "created" magically but its not "temporary magical damage" I'd argue that neither is blindness, it was created magically but its normal, albeit temporary, blindness. Its inconsistent to say that sound is normal but that blindness or confusion or light or whatever isn't also "normal" and can also leave the area. I'd argue that the effects that do damage each round may inflict their damage so long as you remain within range but if you leave they are no longer able to hurt you, however their effects last, non damaging disabilities are created with a single magical impulse, but will last until the duration ends no matter if you leave the ward area or not, similar to how the already received damage stays.

I can't buy into an argument that is basically saying "oh well I think that the AOE ward boundary doesn't apply to normal effects like sound that are really just "created" magically" but only treating that ONE ward that way.

Also who is to say that when you trigger a non-AOE sound alarm ward that you don't get 100% volume out to the full radius of effect and then nothing a foot outside it? Seeing that is how Palladium magic generally works I'd think that argument holds more water than an inconsistent application of "well this is normal not magical so it doesn't obey AOE limits" to try and make it work like you want or to make sense of PB's poorly thought out nerfing of AOE wards...

[rustyspoon]

Not to say that it would alway be totally ineffective but it would not be as effective as simply warding the door with the sound alarm rather than AOE. To me that means the AOE is flawed as it is meant to be more effective at area protection than simply warding the entrance. Somebody to go intangible and walk through the wall by-passing the door and still set off an AOE alarm, but if they back out and stop the alarm or if the alarm only goes as far as the AOE (like all the other AOE ward combos) then we are back to not very effective.

I don't think the AOE+Alarm ward is supposed to be truncated at the limit of the AOE but if you are going to apply the AOE rules equally you either have to say that it stops going off once the person leaves, OR that the sound doesn't travel beyond the AOE, and likely both since the other wards seem to exhibit this behavior. If you go by the AOE rules they will zap you if you enter but its not actively filling the AOE with gouts of fire or bolts of energy or whatnot so why would it fill the AOE with sound when nobody is inside to trigger it or to hear it.

Wards work like landmines, not light switches. If you just stick your toe into the area of an AOE ward, it goes off and continues to go off for it's entire duration even if you leave. So the alarm keeps blaring even if the person leaves. If it's a blind ward, it's still active for the entire duration. So if someone steps into the area and triggers the blind ward, they are blinded. If they step back out, the can see again. However, if they stick their toe back in there before the duration is over, they're blind again.

You can continue to hear the sound from the alarm ward as the sound is not magic. The creation of sound is the magic.

The fact that you can escape the effects of AOE wards by leaving their radius is why it's generally a good idea to stick a ward phrase in there, so that a different ward will go off whenever someone steps inside.

You read a lot into this and are applying your assumptions inconsistently. If the effect that is created is "normal" even though it was magic that created the effect why then does the damage stay with a person when they leave the area and blindness doesn't? It was "created" magically but its not "temporary magical damage" I'd argue that neither is blindness, it was created magically but its normal, albeit temporary, blindness. Its inconsistent to say that sound is normal but that blindness or confusion or light or whatever isn't also "normal" and can also leave the area. I'd argue that the effects that do damage each round may inflict their damage so long as you remain within range but if you leave they are no longer able to hurt you, however their effects last, non damaging disabilities are created with a single magical impulse, but will last until the duration ends no matter if you leave the ward area or not, similar to how the already received damage stays.

I can't buy into an argument that is basically saying "oh well I think that the AOE ward boundary doesn't apply to normal effects like sound that are really just "created" magically" but only treating that ONE ward that way.

Also who is to say that when you trigger a non-AOE sound alarm ward that you don't get 100% volume out to the full radius of effect and then nothing a foot outside it? Seeing that is how Palladium magic generally works I'd think that argument holds more water than an inconsistent application of "well this is normal not magical so it doesn't obey AOE limits" to try and make it work like you want or to make sense of PB's poorly thought out nerfing of AOE wards...

It's actually quite consistent when you really sit down and think about it.

AOE wards don't cast magic upon a person, they are cast upon the area. Only when you are in the area are you affected. So if you walk into an area with a blindness AOE, you're blind. When you leave, you aren't blind anymore. When you walk into an Energy AOE, you get shot by magical blasts. That is the effect of the ward, not the damage itself. See the difference? When you leave the area, you no longer suffer the "effect" which is getting shot by energy blasts.

If you still have a problem with the alarm ward, you have to remember too that it is an entirely different class than other wards and follows its own rules. Alarms are their own class entirely and follow their own rules. Whereas something like blind belongs to the "Condition" class of wards.

[Tor]

Then we are back to the savvy thief just backing up a step and having people very likely mistake the sound for something else.

Yes, except it woke up the parrot guarding the room, who sees you and squawks his alarm. The hounds are released.

Ward phrases can be pretty complicated. If you can make wards get triggered by specific causes, then who's to say a non-AoE alarm ward wouldn't be triggered by listing sound/alarms as the trigger and having the AoE set it off in a chain?

[Thinyser]

It's actually quite consistent when you really sit down and think about it.

AOE wards don't cast magic upon a person, they are cast upon the area.

I don't agree. The magic is directed against a person (or people) only (and maybe animals if your GM runs it that way, mine have always said that wards treat animals like the environment and only go off for intelligent creatures). Anyhow, if you set off an AOE Fire ward it doesn't create a big ol' fireball damaging everything (trees, tables, drapes, etc.) in the radius. Just people. It is centered on a location but it is not targeted at the location.

Only when you are in the area are you affected. So if you walk into an area with a blindness AOE, you're blind. When you leave, you aren't blind anymore. When you walk into an Energy AOE, you get shot by magical blasts. That is the effect of the ward, not the damage itself. See the difference? When you leave the area, you no longer suffer the "effect" which is getting shot by energy blasts.

So when you leave the alarm area you cant hear the ward. Got it.

I hope you can see why I'm saying you're being inconsistent.

If you still have a problem with the alarm ward, you have to remember too that it is an entirely different class than other wards and follows its own rules. Alarms are their own class entirely and follow their own rules. Whereas something like blind belongs to the "Condition" class of wards.

Agreed and this would be considerable in a debate discussing just condition wards or just alarm wards but we are talking about how AOE modifies other wards. So while it may be a factor it certainly isn't the primary. AOE wards seem to trump the range of other wards with their own AOE radius. Color wards are also listed separately from condition wards. Are these also excluded from the AOE radius restriction? If I set an PBI+AOE+Blue ward up its supposed to turn anybody who enters the AOE Blue for 10 min/level. If they leave the AOE are they no longer blue?

[Thinyser]

Then we are back to the savvy thief just backing up a step and having people very likely mistake the sound for something else.

Yes, except it woke up the parrot guarding the room, who sees you and squawks his alarm. The hounds are released.

Ward phrases can be pretty complicated. If you can make wards get triggered by specific causes, then who's to say a non-AoE alarm ward wouldn't be triggered by listing sound/alarms as the trigger and having the AoE set it off in a chain?

Sure they can be but it requires more time, materials, and steps to go wrong. Doesn't a ward have to stay active for 6 seconds before it can trigger another ward? Or is that just a suggestion? Whether its a "rule" or only a "suggestion" was it designed to allow for a person to leave the AOE area before the alarm trigger ward can set off something more nasty?

"Whoops I set off an alarm ward better back up a step and silence it before it sets off something else"

I see what you mean however, that you could have a silent alarm trigger a sound alarm (AND other nasty things too) and this being set off by the silent alarm and NOT directly by the intruder would probably solve the problem but it seems a needlessly hard workaround. I suppose its probably the way its got to be done if you follow the letter of the rules as written.

[rustyspoon]

I don't agree. The magic is directed against a person (or people) only (and maybe animals if your GM runs it that way, mine have always said that wards treat animals like the environment and only go off for intelligent creatures). Anyhow, if you set off an AOE Fire ward it doesn't create a big ol' fireball damaging everything (trees, tables, drapes, etc.) in the radius. Just people. It is centered on a location but it is not targeted at the location.

Actually, a lot of the conditions DO affect inanimate objects. They just need to be used as an inflict and not an AOE. Also, inanimate objects can trigger wards. Says so in the book, page 125. You can toss a heavy rock at a ward and it will go off. A person doesn't need to touch it.

Only when you are in the area are you affected. So if you walk into an area with a blindness AOE, you're blind. When you leave, you aren't blind anymore. When you walk into an Energy AOE, you get shot by magical blasts. That is the effect of the ward, not the damage itself. See the difference? When you leave the area, you no longer suffer the "effect" which is getting shot by energy blasts.

So when you leave the alarm area you cant hear the ward. Got it.

I hope you can see why I'm saying you're being inconsistent.

No, you're just misunderstanding what I'm saying. In the situations that I mentioned, those conditions are active the entire time. Doesn't matter whether someone is in range or not. The alarm ward is NOT a condition. The Sound Alarm Ward is a special type of ward that creates sound that can be heard out to a radius of 100 feet per level of the creator. It will always do that no matter whether it is a regular ward or an AOE. All the AOE does is increase the area where it is triggered. An alarm isn't casting magic on anybody, all it does is create an alarm.

Agreed and this would be considerable in a debate discussing just condition wards or just alarm wards but we are talking about how AOE modifies other wards. So while it may be a factor it certainly isn't the primary. AOE wards seem to trump the range of other wards with their own AOE radius. Color wards are also listed separately from condition wards. Are these also excluded from the AOE radius restriction? If I set an PBI+AOE+Blue ward up its supposed to turn anybody who enters the AOE Blue for 10 min/level. If they leave the AOE are they no longer blue?

The thing about colors (I just checked in the book) is that they can be either a description or a condition. So if used as a condition they wouldn't be blue anymore when they left the area.

Basically, if something is a condition it stops putting it's effect on whatever is in the radius when that thing leaves the radius. An alarm is not a condition so it continues to be an alarm and does whatever that alarm does whether or not someone is in the radius of the AOE. If you trigger a condition with an AOE, it will remain active for its entire duration whether or not there is something to apply that condition on within the radius.

[Thinyser]

I don't agree. The magic is directed against a person (or people) only (and maybe animals if your GM runs it that way, mine have always said that wards treat animals like the environment and only go off for intelligent creatures). Anyhow, if you set off an AOE Fire ward it doesn't create a big ol' fireball damaging everything (trees, tables, drapes, etc.) in the radius. Just people. It is centered on a location but it is not targeted at the location.

Actually, a lot of the conditions DO affect inanimate objects. They just need to be used as an inflict and not an AOE. Also, inanimate objects can trigger wards. Says so in the book, page 125. You can toss a heavy rock at a ward and it will go off. A person doesn't need to touch it.

So if you toss a big rock into an AOE area the ward triggers? I don't think so.

Only when you are in the area are you affected. So if you walk into an area with a blindness AOE, you're blind. When you leave, you aren't blind anymore. When you walk into an Energy AOE, you get shot by magical blasts. That is the effect of the ward, not the damage itself. See the difference? When you leave the area, you no longer suffer the "effect" which is getting shot by energy blasts.

So when you leave the alarm area you cant hear the ward. Got it.

I hope you can see why I'm saying you're being inconsistent.

No, you're just misunderstanding what I'm saying. In the situations that I mentioned, those conditions are active the entire time. Doesn't matter whether someone is in range or not. The alarm ward is NOT a condition. The Sound Alarm Ward is a special type of ward that creates sound that can be heard out to a radius of 100 feet per level of the creator. It will always do that no matter whether it is a regular ward or an AOE. All the AOE does is increase the area where it is triggered. An alarm isn't casting magic on anybody, all it does is create an alarm.

So it inflicts the condition of sound. Just because its listed as alarm does not give it special privileges not mentioned. Nowhere in either the AOE or Alarm ward description does it say that the Alarm ward is immune from the AOE ward's range limit when combined with an AOE ward. Again you're reading into this where there is nothing stating such in the book. AOE wards prevent the effects from leaving their AOE.

Agreed and this would be considerable in a debate discussing just condition wards or just alarm wards but we are talking about how AOE modifies other wards. So while it may be a factor it certainly isn't the primary. AOE wards seem to trump the range of other wards with their own AOE radius. Color wards are also listed separately from condition wards. Are these also excluded from the AOE radius restriction? If I set an PBI+AOE+Blue ward up its supposed to turn anybody who enters the AOE Blue for 10 min/level. If they leave the AOE are they no longer blue?

The thing about colors (I just checked in the book) is that they can be either a description or a condition. So if used as a condition they wouldn't be blue anymore when they left the area.

Actually no it states they are usually descriptive but can also be used to inflict a color. Conditions can be both inflicted and also combined with "protection from" to be protected against, and color is not listed as a "condition" there either.

Basically, if something is a condition it stops putting it's effect on whatever is in the radius when that thing leaves the radius. An alarm is not a condition so it continues to be an alarm and does whatever that alarm does whether or not someone is in the radius of the AOE. If you trigger a condition with an AOE, it will remain active for its entire duration whether or not there is something to apply that condition on within the radius.

I disagree that the alarm is special in any way. Its not exempted from the AOE limit in its own description or in the AOE limits. I'm arguing as a devil's advocate here because I agree that it SHOULD work as you describe but the rules as written dont support it.

[rustyspoon]

So if you toss a big rock into an AOE area the ward triggers? I don't think so.

As long as it's not keyed to only respond to a specific force, you can. You just have to make sure to hit the actual ward with it. Page 125 of the main book, starting with the first paragraph. As long as it's an object greater than a pound you're good to go. Though your chance of setting it off are only 1-65%. Still pretty good odds.

So it inflicts the condition of sound. Just because its listed as alarm does not give it special privileges not mentioned. Nowhere in either the AOE or Alarm ward description does it say that the Alarm ward is immune from the AOE ward's range limit when combined with an AOE ward. Again you're reading into this where there is nothing stating such in the book. AOE wards prevent the effects from leaving their AOE.

Actually wards don't have an innate range. The only ward that comes with a range are alarms. A plain old inflict + condition or protection by infliction has no range whatsoever, only a target. An AOE gives them a range of effect. An alarm is also not an effect. It's an alarm. That's what it does. Under Area Affect Wards on page 126 of the main book, it specifically describes AOE wards with alarm wards. In the next paragraph it explains how the AOE works with other wards. Alarms are handled differently. It just says, when you use an alarm with an AOE, the alarm goes off. Book description for a sound alarm says that "This single ward will create a loud, siren-like noise that can be heard within a radius of 100 feet." and "The alarm can be used to sound off when an intruder enters a particular area by combining it with an area affect ward."

Actually no it states they are usually descriptive but can also be used to inflict a color. Conditions can be both inflicted and also combined with "protection from" to be protected against, and color is not listed as a "condition" there either.

Inflict, Protection by Infliction and Protection from need to be combined with a condition. When used with a color, the color is a condition. Colors are also listed as conditions on page 123 of the main book under Conditions: "All color wards, cold, dark, evil..."

I disagree that the alarm is special in any way. Its not exempted from the AOE limit in its own description or in the AOE limits. I'm arguing as a devil's advocate here because I agree that it SHOULD work as you describe but the rules as written dont support it.

I think the rules as written do support it. But since it's a Palladium book, you have to read 20 different places to get the whole idea. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Thinyser]

So if you toss a big rock into an AOE area the ward triggers? I don't think so.

As long as it's not keyed to only respond to a specific force, you can. You just have to make sure to hit the actual ward with it. Page 125 of the main book, starting with the first paragraph. As long as it's an object greater than a pound you're good to go. Though your chance of setting it off are only 1-65%. Still pretty good odds.

Again so you can toss a big rock in to the AOE area and trigger the ward. I dont think so. To make it plain you have to actually hit the ward NOT just get a rock into the area. And even then its still not always gonna do the job.

So it inflicts the condition of sound. Just because its listed as alarm does not give it special privileges not mentioned. Nowhere in either the AOE or Alarm ward description does it say that the Alarm ward is immune from the AOE ward's range limit when combined with an AOE ward. Again you're reading into this where there is nothing stating such in the book. AOE wards prevent the effects from leaving their AOE.

Actually wards don't have an innate range. The only ward that comes with a range are alarms. A plain old inflict + condition or protection by infliction has no range whatsoever, only a target. An AOE gives them a range of effect. An alarm is also not an effect. It's an alarm. That's what it does. Under Area Affect Wards on page 126 of the main book, it specifically describes AOE wards with alarm wards. In the next paragraph it explains how the AOE works with other wards. Alarms are handled differently. It just says, when you use an alarm with an AOE, the alarm goes off. Book description for a sound alarm says that "This single ward will create a loud, siren-like noise that can be heard within a radius of 100 feet." and "The alarm can be used to sound off when an intruder enters a particular area by combining it with an area affect ward."

I've gone over most of this already. I already know and have posted that regular wards have infinite range. Combining these with AOE truncates the range to the AOE range. Why do you assume that a ward that already has a less than infinite range would not also be limited by AOE? If it can shorten an infinite range I'm sure it can shorten a 100' per level range too.

Actually no it states they are usually descriptive but can also be used to inflict a color. Conditions can be both inflicted and also combined with "protection from" to be protected against, and color is not listed as a "condition" there either.

Inflict, Protection by Infliction and Protection from need to be combined with a condition. When used with a color, the color is a condition. Colors are also listed as conditions on page 123 of the main book under Conditions: "All color wards, cold, dark, evil..."

Good find I didn't see that. So do you think that a person who is colored by an PBI+AOE+Color ward is not colored as soon as they leave the area, just because its a condition? What is the point of turning somebody a color if not to indicate they went into an unauthorized area? $#!+s and giggles? I've always seen it used as a means to prove that a person went where they weren't supposed to. Usually combined with an alarm ward. The alarm alerts everyone that there was a breach and the color the person gets dyed by the ward makes it obvious who was in the warded area. Now I know this can get done with a second trigger alarm that pops off an AOE inflict color but as soon as they leave the AOE they are not colored even if the other trigger ward set it off. The only way to make this work for the full duration is to get them to activate a non-AOE ward and thats not possible in a lot of circumstances. PBI+AOE+Color should (just like any other non damaging ward) last for its listed duration even after the person leaves the area.
It doesn't. The color stops at the AOE limit. So would Light so would confusion. So would SOUND despite it not being listed as an alarm.

I disagree that the alarm is special in any way. Its not exempted from the AOE limit in its own description or in the AOE limits. I'm arguing as a devil's advocate here because I agree that it SHOULD work as you describe but the rules as written dont support it.

I think the rules as written do support it. But since it's a Palladium book, you have to read 20 different places to get the whole idea. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Ok by me. I really do think it should work that way. I just dont see anything book wise to support it.

[rustyspoon]

I've gone over most of this already. I already know and have posted that regular wards have infinite range. Combining these with AOE truncates the range to the AOE range. Why do you assume that a ward that already has a less than infinite range would not also be limited by AOE? If it can shorten an infinite range I'm sure it can shorten a 100' per level range too.

I think we're talking about different things here. Inflict wards, protection by infliction, protection wards etc only apply to the person they are used on. Only the person who actually touches a protection by infliction ward gets hit by it. They need to touch the ward, hence why I said the range is zero. At that point, the magic is transferred from the ward (which is now dead unless it's permanent) to the person. That person will be affected by the ward for the entire duration as the magic is on them. So yes, you can say that a ward has infinite range as the person can move anywhere while under the effect of a direct ward. But the only ward that truly has an unlimited range is a silent alarm ward.

A silent alarm ward contacts the diabolist no matter where he/she is, even if in another dimension. It can also be combined with an AOE effect. By your interpretation, it would not work outside of the radius, so the diabolist would also need to be standing in the radius when it goes off to receive the alarm. The description says that when someone disturbs the area, the mage gets the message. It's the same with a sound alarm, when someone disturbs the area the alarm follows its normal description. Alarm wards follow different rules than other wards.

In the description for other wards, the range of effect is for wards that actually put an effect on someone. Alarms aren't placing an effect on anyone. They are just alarms.

Good find I didn't see that. So do you think that a person who is colored by an PBI+AOE+Color ward is not colored as soon as they leave the area, just because its a condition? What is the point of turning somebody a color if not to indicate they went into an unauthorized area? $#!+s and giggles? I've always seen it used as a means to prove that a person went where they weren't supposed to. Usually combined with an alarm ward. The alarm alerts everyone that there was a breach and the color the person gets dyed by the ward makes it obvious who was in the warded area. Now I know this can get done with a second trigger alarm that pops off an AOE inflict color but as soon as they leave the AOE they are not colored even if the other trigger ward set it off. The only way to make this work for the full duration is to get them to activate a non-AOE ward and thats not possible in a lot of circumstances. PBI+AOE+Color should (just like any other non damaging ward) last for its listed duration even after the person leaves the area.
It doesn't. The color stops at the AOE limit. So would Light so would confusion. So would SOUND despite it not being listed as an alarm.

Yes, once a person left the area, the color wouldn't be there anymore. That's why those are best used as an infliction or protection by infliction. Wards are more powerful when directed at the person who messes with them. AOE conditions aren't as powerful, but have a large "area of effect" and can hit multiple people at once. It's a good trade off. Need to keep people at bay, use an AOE. Don't want people touching a particular object? Use protection by inflictions.

Ok by me. I really do think it should work that way. I just dont see anything book wise to support it.

And this is the big problem with Palladium books (though I love them so much). The writing is so unclear and different aspects of rules are on different pages. You can give the book out to five different people and you'd probably come up with five different versions of the rules. At the end of the day, it's just best to do whatever works best for your group.

[Thinyser]

I concede! You won me over. I'll agree that alarm wards are a special instance from every other ward combined with AOE they still have their normal effective distances.

I will also stipulate that the phrasing of the color ward description

Spoiler:

Usually a descriptive ward, but it can be used to inflict a color, magically transforming the warded object or person, or those in the radius of an area affect ward, into a particular color for the duration of the ward.

Bolding is mine

indicates that it lasts for the duration of the ward even if it was paired with AOE and as such I will continue to play it the way I always have. NO! Dont try and talk me out of it! Not listening.... NANANANANANANNANANANANANANA

[say652]

All this super golem talk. Rune Statue yea thought so. Lol