Rituals can be made into Scrolls and here's why

[Tor]

I used to treat it as if ritual-exclusive spells could not be made into scrolls. It's more convenient for the imagination this way. Too much goes into a ritual to think that you could just plop it on a scroll (or a talisman) right?

I mean sure, you can cast 'create scroll' as a ritual, and impart ritual strength to SPELLS. That option's generally existed for all spells. Well, the higher-level ones, anyway. Create Scroll was a neat trick you could do to impart ritual-level spell strength to lower-level spells which normally could not be cast as rituals, which was cool.

Well we know explicitly that we can't put rituals on a talisman. Page 189 of RMB explicitly tells us 'it must be a spell invocation, not a ritual", so that's out. But there is this disclaimer for Scrolls? I can't see it there. If it was similarly limited, wouldn't it say that for scrolls too? In fact it even says 'the only real limitation'(s) are PPE and literacy. If we could not put a ritual on it, surely that would also be a 'real limitation'.

'Spell', much as we love it to mean 'non-ritual' for convenience's sake in situations like this, has frequently had a looser meaning, and applied to rituals as well. It appears that this is the case here.

I submit Rifts Vampire Kingdoms (original) page 77. Fineous has under his 'scrolls include' list "1 transformation." As we know, Transformation is a ritual on page 190 of RMB.

If we can scrollify stuff like Transformation, then this should (with some imagination) also put Mummy/Zombie/Golem on the table. But it then brings up questions about the fundamentals. Like does the scroll-reader still have to perform the physical steps (perhaps the scroll tells you how?) of preparing a corpse or a clay figure? Is it still them who pays the permanent SDC even if the PPE is included in the scroll?

[cornholioprime]

I used to treat it as if ritual-exclusive spells could not be made into scrolls. It's more convenient for the imagination this way. Too much goes into a ritual to think that you could just plop it on a scroll (or a talisman) right?

I mean sure, you can cast 'create scroll' as a ritual, and impart ritual strength to SPELLS. That option's generally existed for all spells. Well, the higher-level ones, anyway. Create Scroll was a neat trick you could do to impart ritual-level spell strength to lower-level spells which normally could not be cast as rituals, which was cool.

Well we know explicitly that we can't put rituals on a talisman. Page 189 of RMB explicitly tells us 'it must be a spell invocation, not a ritual", so that's out. But there is this disclaimer for Scrolls? I can't see it there. If it was similarly limited, wouldn't it say that for scrolls too? In fact it even says 'the only real limitation'(s) are PPE and literacy. If we could not put a ritual on it, surely that would also be a 'real limitation'.

'Spell', much as we love it to mean 'non-ritual' for convenience's sake in situations like this, has frequently had a looser meaning, and applied to rituals as well. It appears that this is the case here.

I submit Rifts Vampire Kingdoms (original) page 77. Fineous has under his 'scrolls include' list "1 transformation." As we know, Transformation is a ritual on page 190 of RMB.

If we can scrollify stuff like Transformation, then this should (with some imagination) also put Mummy/Zombie/Golem on the table. But it then brings up questions about the fundamentals. Like does the scroll-reader still have to perform the physical steps (perhaps the scroll tells you how?) of preparing a corpse or a clay figure? Is it still them who pays the permanent SDC even if the PPE is included in the scroll?

Unfortunately, NPCs don't always, exactly, follow The Rules As Written (Natasha Romanov, Alistair Dunscon, and now your Fineous, to name just three that I can think up off the top of my head; Shora Kobe, a normal-strength Altaran Blind Warrior Woman, gets honorable mention for kicking out the teeth of an MDC Splugorth High Lord in the artwork drawn for her).

I don't remember where it was in the books, but as I recall The Authors at some point explained away "Rule-Breaker NPCs" as being exceptions to the rule; in MY opinion, that explanation was thought up to cover for Authors who mistakenly/unwittingly create NPCs who break the rules.

(In the "Palladium Terminology Project 2.0" Thread, I once came up with the term "Coffin Character" to describe such a rule-breaking character -named after a former, much-beloved writer for Palladium Books who was said to have created several such NPC's in his own right -but ultimately the term wasn't allowed to be added.)

[Svartalf]

"Natasha" Romanov? you mean Warlord Sonya "the Great" Tatyanevna Romanova? Or is that some NPC I've forgotten or never knew about?

[The Immortal ME]

Uum. I could be convinced.

The way I see it, when creating a scroll you are imbuing the power into the scroll itself in a form ready to be released when read. The person reading the scroll, however, is still required to shape that power by speaking the words on the scroll.

If a ritual were to be imbued on a scroll, I would be inclined to say that the scroll "reader" would still be required to perform the ritual in order to shape the power stored in the scroll. This is a complex proposition. Weaving the instructions of the actions be performed and the power words to chant while doing so together into a form that can be performed without stopping long enough to disrupt the spell. Good luck if you don't have the components on hand.

[cornholioprime]

"Natasha" Romanov? you mean Warlord Sonya "the Great" Tatyanevna Romanova? Or is that some NPC I've forgotten or never knew about?

I think that I was thinking of Scarlett Johannsen the Black Widow when I posted that.

Whoops.

[Killer Cyborg]

I submit Rifts Vampire Kingdoms (original) page 77. Fineous has under his 'scrolls include' list "1 transformation." As we know, Transformation is a ritual on page 190 of RMB.

Certainly covers the pre-RUE rules of the game.
If RUE and VK1r are the same, then it's still that way.

Nice find.

[Tor]

Regardless of what is in RUE and VKr, it's always that way. RUE is clearly a new alternate dimension of Rifts earth. We already know a multiverse (Megaverse) exists, and it accounts for all new editions of books that create unreconcilable conflicts.

Also this isn't a case of an NPC breaking the rules guys. He's not even a spellcaster. It's a case of him having an item which... actually doesn't break an explicit rule, just a rule we assumed was in operation due to the rarity of seeing ritual scrolls.

An alternate explanation would also be that this is a variant of the Transformation ritual turned into spell-form via TTGD. It is possible to make spells easier to cast by adding limitations like rituals, and harder to cast by removing ritual requirements.

So it might be possible that we can't put the normal ritual on there, but if one invents or is taught a non-ritual (would be higher level, like 16 or something, let's say) version then one could put it on a scroll, if one wishes to play that rituals can't be put there.

[Svartalf]

"Natasha" Romanov? you mean Warlord Sonya "the Great" Tatyanevna Romanova? Or is that some NPC I've forgotten or never knew about?

I think that I was thinking of Scarlett Johannsen the Black Widow when I posted that.

Whoops.

THAT Natasha... OK

[eliakon]

Regardless of what is in RUE and VKr, it's always that way. RUE is clearly a new alternate dimension of Rifts earth. We already know a multiverse (Megaverse) exists, and it accounts for all new editions of books that create unreconcilable conflicts.

Also this isn't a case of an NPC breaking the rules guys. He's not even a spellcaster. It's a case of him having an item which... actually doesn't break an explicit rule, just a rule we assumed was in operation due to the rarity of seeing ritual scrolls.

An alternate explanation would also be that this is a variant of the Transformation ritual turned into spell-form via TTGD. It is possible to make spells easier to cast by adding limitations like rituals, and harder to cast by removing ritual requirements.

So it might be possible that we can't put the normal ritual on there, but if one invents or is taught a non-ritual (would be higher level, like 16 or something, let's say) version then one could put it on a scroll, if one wishes to play that rituals can't be put there.

That is your personal opinion.
But RUE isn't just a new dimension that you can travel between RUE and RMB. Its the new rules for Rifts.
Your personal house rules can make it different, but canonicly the new stuff changes the old stuff retroactively. It isn't that its now this way, its that it always was this way.

I would hesitate though to overturn a well established concept of what a spell can or can not due....based on one item of unknown providence on one npc......Since the NPCs REGULARLY get to break the rules.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In the PF setting the text says that the scroll has a Spell Str. of 16 if created as part of a Ritual.

Is there something changed in the Rifts books?

[eliakon]

In the PF setting the text says that the scroll has a Spell Str. of 16 if created as part of a Ritual.

Is there something changed in the Rifts books?

There is a difference between
Created as part of a ritual and contains a ritual.

[Tor]

The difference being "I'm making a Light Target with a save of 16" and "I'm making a scroll of Circle of Travel".

I would probably mandate that to make a scroll of a ritual, you would have to cast 'create scroll' as a ritual too though... just seems appropriate. I guess if you wanted to cast it as a spell and reduce the strength to 12 that'd be fine though... but I think you need to cast the full spell that a scroll contains as part of making it, so you'd have to add the casting times together, right? Just guessing.

That is your personal opinion. But RUE isn't just a new dimension that you can travel between RUE and RMB. Its the new rules for Rifts.

The changes are too severe, the only way to reconcile them are to have 'Main Rifts' and 'Ultimate Rifts' dimensions. That, or create in-universe explanations (possibly known only to the GM) about how certain changes have happened. Like why ley lines suddenly put out in melees what they used to put out in hours. You can make that different dimensions, or a GM can explain that there was a surge in energy in the ley lines and everyone can draw more.

We can rationalize this by saying that RMB was an 'ebb' in ley line output, but as a side effect people could draw power from each other more readily. The higher energy output of the ley lines in the 'Ultimate' age now interferes with drawing energy from other people, so now people flock to ley lines more than ever.

Or we can wimp out and say 'it was always this way' even though that makes zero sense, and spits on any campaigns that preceded RUE which might lead into it, which would have been affected by factors like PPE availability and casting speed.

Your personal house rules can make it different, but canonicly the new stuff changes the old stuff retroactively. It isn't that its now this way, its that it always was this way.

Source?

I would hesitate though to overturn a well established concept of what a spell can or can not due....based on one item of unknown providence on one npc......Since the NPCs REGULARLY get to break the rules.

This concept is not 'well established though'. I already made the case that Create Scroll lacks the explicit "no rituals" warning that Talisman has. I think we merely assumed it operated the same way out of convenience.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In the PF setting the text says that the scroll has a Spell Str. of 16 if created as part of a Ritual.

Is there something changed in the Rifts books?

There is a difference between
Created as part of a ritual and contains a ritual.

Ah...okay.

He must of been using a NPC unique item to base his premise on.

i.o.w.: even if a NPC has it, that does not necessarily mean that PC's can do the same.

[cornholioprime]

Rituals CANNOT be inscribed into Scrolls, and now I have proof:

Pages 247 and 248 of PFRPG.

Not even Alchemists can put Rituals into Scrolls, and they are the Supreme Badass Varkids of the magic world when it comes to mystic creation.

Shall we 'call it a day' on this particular discussion, folks?

[Svartalf]

So how do we explain the exception to that rule mentioned in OP? More NPCs don't follow the rules?

[drewkitty ~..~]

So how do we explain the exception to that rule mentioned in OP? More NPCs don't follow the rules?

Sort of like the Villain named Kelvin in VU where the NPC can use two APS powers at once. The reason the NPC can break the 'chars can't use two APS powers at once' rule is because the writer did it by writer's fiat.

[cornholioprime]

So how do we explain the exception to that rule mentioned in OP? More NPCs don't follow the rules?

It's probably more like "More NPCs created by Authors who didn't do their homework."

[Svartalf]

So how do we explain the exception to that rule mentioned in OP? More NPCs don't follow the rules?

It's probably more like "More NPCs created by Authors who didn't do their homework."

Uh... wasn't VK written by Kev himself?

[wyrmraker]

So how do we explain the exception to that rule mentioned in OP? More NPCs don't follow the rules?

It's probably more like "More NPCs created by Authors who didn't do their homework."

Uh... wasn't VK written by Kev himself?

Which further showcases said point.

[Killer Cyborg]

Regardless of what is in RUE and VKr, it's always that way. RUE is clearly a new alternate dimension of Rifts earth.

Can't be. Rifts Earth is stated as being unique.
It's a rewrite of the same planet/setting. Just like all the other rule changes before RUE came out.

[Killer Cyborg]

Rituals CANNOT be inscribed into Scrolls, and now I have proof:

Pages 247 and 248 of PFRPG.

Not even Alchemists can put Rituals into Scrolls, and they are the Supreme Badass Varkids of the magic world when it comes to mystic creation.

Shall we 'call it a day' on this particular discussion, folks?

Not entirely.
In context:
"Any level spell (not rituals) can be made into a scroll"

Could mean:
a) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, ritual spells cannot ever be made into a scroll
b) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, but not necessarily any level of ritual spell can be made into a scroll
c) Alchemists are willing to make any non-ritual spell of any level into a scroll, but alchemists are unwilling to make ritual spells into scrolls for any price.
d) Alchemists specifically are unable to make non-ritual spells into scrolls for some reason.

Which isn't 100% airtight.

[Svartalf]

The first sentence in "selling magic scrolls" says that alchemists can turn spells (but not rituals) into scrolls, period.
The Create Scroll spell can be cast as a spell or ritual, but does not mention rituals at all, it's hard to tell whether that means that only spell can be scrolled or, more likely, that the difference is immaterial. That would mean that the inability to enscroll rituals would be specific to the alchemist.

[cornholioprime]

Rituals CANNOT be inscribed into Scrolls, and now I have proof:

Pages 247 and 248 of PFRPG.

Not even Alchemists can put Rituals into Scrolls, and they are the Supreme Badass Varkids of the magic world when it comes to mystic creation.

Shall we 'call it a day' on this particular discussion, folks?

Not entirely.
In context:
"Any level spell (not rituals) can be made into a scroll"

Could mean:
a) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, ritual spells cannot ever be made into a scroll
b) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, but not necessarily any level of ritual spell can be made into a scroll
c) Alchemists are willing to make any non-ritual spell of any level into a scroll, but alchemists are unwilling to make ritual spells into scrolls for any price.
d) Alchemists specifically are unable to make non-ritual spells into scrolls for some reason.

Which isn't 100% airtight.

Nah, it's pretty "airtight."

Page 247 deals specifically with Alchemists, that is true.

But page 248 unequivocally states:

"Any level spell (not rituals) can be turned into a magic scroll spell."

[Tor]

even if a NPC has it, that does not necessarily mean that PC's can do the same.

Sure it does, if we can find the rules for it.

I gave 2 ways to do it:

1) make rituals into scrolls (Create Scroll doesn't forbid this, it's just weird to us)
2) convert ritual spells into non-ritual invocations via TTGD, THEN scroll them

Rituals CANNOT be inscribed into Scrolls, and now I have proof:

Pages 247 and 248 of PFRPG.

Not even Alchemists can put Rituals into Scrolls, and they are the Supreme Badass Varkids of the magic world when it comes to mystic creation.

Shall we 'call it a day' on this particular discussion, folks?

Heck no, I'm fighting this. Firstly, it says "the world" (meaning Palladium World). As we know, the magic in Rifts Earth is supposed to be stronger, SDC becomes MDC, elementals summoned in minutes instead of hours and all that. This could easily make rituals scrollable.

Secondly, this statement is saying that "few" people know how to make spells into scrolls. This could mean that making rituals into scrolls is even EASIER, and that far more than a few know how to do it.

Thirdly, this is talking about an OCC ability. It's not even clear if an Alchemist NEEDS to know 'create scroll' to become an alchemist. So they may do it through an entirely different process. The Alchemist ability requires you to use PARCHMENT, and the level 11 spell (which Alchemists may not know, and could bypass their limitations) can put spells (and, I'm arguing, rituals too) on PAPER.

"Any level spell (not rituals) can be made into a scroll" could mean:
a) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, ritual spells cannot ever be made into a scroll
b) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, but not necessarily any level of ritual spell can be made into a scroll
c) Alchemists are willing to make any non-ritual spell of any level into a scroll, but alchemists are unwilling to make ritual spells into scrolls for any price.
d) Alchemists specifically are unable to make non-ritual spells into scrolls for some reason.

These too, some stuff I hadn't thought of.

Can't be. Rifts Earth is stated as being unique.

Even things altogether similar are unique. Do you think the Id Alter Egos of Temporal Wizards native to Rifts Earth come from some non-Rifts Earth instead of an alternate one? "Unique" doesn't tell us anything except that other Rifts Earths won't have utterly identicle details. Their Atlantis might be 2 feet longer than ours.

page 248 unequivocally states: "Any level spell (not rituals) can be turned into a magic scroll spell."

In the context of discussing the OCC ability of alchemists, not the 'create scroll' spell or any other means of creating scrolls (like priests).

Also as KC pointed out, this could mean that level 15 (or perhaps level 9) rituals can't be scrolled but that all other level rituals can.

[cornholioprime]

Heck no, I'm fighting this. Firstly, it says "the world" (meaning Palladium World). As we know, the magic in Rifts Earth is supposed to be stronger, SDC becomes MDC, elementals summoned in minutes instead of hours and all that. This could easily make rituals scrollable.

Speculation on your part versus canon information on my part.

Feel free to "fight" all you want, your say-so doesn't supplant canon.

And don't try the "it's another world" argument, either; rules of magic regularly cross over from other Palladium settings into Rifts and back again, usually with little more than a point-to-point SDC to MDC conversion.

It is the relative power levels of Palladium Magic that get a change on Rifts Earth (most commonly a boost to range, duration, and damage), not usually the rules behind how the magic works.


There are obviously exceptions to that rule, obviously instances where the rules for something change drastically or completely when going from one world to the other; the only problem here is that you have is that you have not yet proven that this is one of them.

Secondly, this statement is saying that "few" people know how to make spells into scrolls. This could mean that making rituals into scrolls is even EASIER, and that far more than a few know how to do it.

More speculation versus official record.

One guy engaging in speculation = The other guy engaging in speculation.

One guy engaging in speculation < The other guy providing canon material to back up his assertion.

Thirdly, this is talking about an OCC ability. It's not even clear if an Alchemist NEEDS to know 'create scroll' to become an alchemist. So they may do it through an entirely different process. The Alchemist ability requires you to use PARCHMENT, and the level 11 spell (which Alchemists may not know, and could bypass their limitations) can put spells (and, I'm arguing, rituals too) on PAPER.

This statement has nothing whatsoever to do with the (officially) established rule that only spells can be put onto scrolls.

It doesn't matter if the Wizard, or the Demigod, or the Alchemist is attempting to inscribe said spell onto parchment, xerox copy paper, or oatmeal. Nor is the knowledge (or lack thereof) of the 'Create Scroll' spell relevant to a discussion about the prohibition against inscribing rituals.

"Any level spell (not rituals) can be made into a scroll" could mean:
a) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, ritual spells cannot ever be made into a scroll
b) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, but not necessarily any level of ritual spell can be made into a scroll
c) Alchemists are willing to make any non-ritual spell of any level into a scroll, but alchemists are unwilling to make ritual spells into scrolls for any price.
d) Alchemists specifically are unable to make non-ritual spells into scrolls for some reason.

These too, some stuff I hadn't thought of.

Already covered.

While the wording on page 247 of the PFRPG book has wording specific to the Alchemist, the wording on page 248 is clearly a more general statement. It doesn't say something like "Alchemists can make any level spell (not rituals) into a scroll," it says, "any level spell (not rituals) can be made into a scroll."

One statement is Alchemist-specific, and one statement in the same series of paragraphs is more general.

If, for example, someone comes across a passage for an NPC in a Palladium Book where one paragraph there reads:

"Carlotta The White, the famous Reid's Ranger, has 'Globe of Daylight' in her repertoire of spells"

and then further down in the entry they come across another passage that reads:

"Remember, folks, Globe Of Daylight is NOT powerful enough to damage or destroy a vampire"

....no objective observer of those passages would therefore conclude that ONLY Carlotta's casting of G-o-D is essentially powerless against vampires, but that other casters of the same spell could use it offensively.

page 248 unequivocally states: "Any level spell (not rituals) can be turned into a magic scroll spell."

In the context of discussing the OCC ability of alchemists, not the 'create scroll' spell or any other means of creating scrolls (like priests).

Also as KC pointed out, this could mean that level 15 (or perhaps level 9) rituals can't be scrolled but that all other level rituals can.

Explain how you get past the clearly-worded "not rituals" part of that sentence.

It seems to me and probably most everyone else who looks at the passage that the words "not rituals" covers rituals of EVERY level whether Level 9, Level 15, or Level Whatever, but I'd like to see how you try to rules lawyer around it.

[Svartalf]

He does because some idiot author game an NPC a scroll with a ritual on it anxd he wants to make it a general rule rather than a notable exception... to his defence, the interdiction of scroll rituals could be construed as applying solely to alchemists, and not as a general rule on use of the 'Create Scroll' spell, even though a wizard being able to make an item an alchemist can't makes no sense.

[cornholioprime]

He does because some idiot author game an NPC a scroll with a ritual on it anxd he wants to make it a general rule rather than a notable exception... to his defence, the interdiction of scroll rituals could be construed as applying solely to alchemists, and not as a general rule on use of the 'Create Scroll' spell, even though a wizard being able to make an item an alchemist can't makes no sense.

I would agree with that line of thinking 100 percent.....

......IF the one Alchemist-specific phrase ("Alchemists are one of the few people who can make scrolls") had been followed up by another Alchemist-specific phrase ("Alchemists can use any level spell [not rituals] to create a Magic Scroll with.").
A subjective reading of the passage should leave the average reader with the impression that the Author was both telling us how specialized the creation of Magic Scrolls are, AND laying out the (official) limitations on that process, even for beings as vastly knowledgeable as Alchemists.



We are all blessed with the capability to figure out when and if an Author has made a mistake in the creation of a given Player Character or NPC......because we are all blessed with enough intelligence to realize and remember that these Authors aren't omniscient and infallible.

To go back once again to perhaps the most infamous example of a 'flawed' NPC in the books: Would anybody here argue that Full Conversion Cyborgs actually can have psionics simply based on the existence of Sonya Romanov from Rifts: Warlords of Russia??

[Killer Cyborg]

Rituals CANNOT be inscribed into Scrolls, and now I have proof:

Pages 247 and 248 of PFRPG.

Not even Alchemists can put Rituals into Scrolls, and they are the Supreme Badass Varkids of the magic world when it comes to mystic creation.

Shall we 'call it a day' on this particular discussion, folks?

Not entirely.
In context:
"Any level spell (not rituals) can be made into a scroll"

Could mean:
a) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, ritual spells cannot ever be made into a scroll
b) Any level non-ritual spell can be made into a scroll, but not necessarily any level of ritual spell can be made into a scroll
c) Alchemists are willing to make any non-ritual spell of any level into a scroll, but alchemists are unwilling to make ritual spells into scrolls for any price.
d) Alchemists specifically are unable to make non-ritual spells into scrolls for some reason.

Which isn't 100% airtight.

Nah, it's pretty "airtight."

Page 247 deals specifically with Alchemists, that is true.

But page 248 unequivocally states:

"Any level spell (not rituals) can be turned into a magic scroll spell."

P. 248 is still dealing with alchemists.

[Killer Cyborg]

Can't be. Rifts Earth is stated as being unique.

Even things altogether similar are unique.

In the context of the statement, IIRC, it was discussing parallel Rifts Earths, stating that there aren't any.

[eliakon]

To be fair the section on page 248 of the PF book is dealing with scrolls. It could be only as they apply to alchemists, or it could be an expansion on scrolls. My theory is that its basic rules for scrolls, since the last paragraph talks about other sources of scrolls (which were all the ways in PF1 where this is C/P from).....which implies that Priests, Gods, and Men of Magic all use the same rules.
*shrugs* Personal mileage will vary

[Tor]

Speculation on your part versus canon information on my part. Feel free to "fight" all you want, your say-so doesn't supplant canon.

What speculation? The alchemist-canon-applies-to-the-spell approach has clearly poked holes in it. Those statements don't apply.

And don't try the "it's another world" argument, either; rules of magic regularly cross over from other Palladium settings into Rifts and back again, usually with little more than a point-to-point SDC to MDC conversion.

Why specify world if it worked beyond the world?

It is the relative power levels of Palladium Magic that get a change on Rifts Earth (most commonly a boost to range, duration, and damage), not usually the rules behind how the magic works.

What about casting speed? Magic is slower-cast in PF, even by HoM, where using Rifts' casting speed is merely an optional rule and not the default rate.

There are obviously exceptions to that rule, obviously instances where the rules for something change drastically or completely when going from one world to the other; the only problem here is that you have is that you have not yet proven that this is one of them.

Since there isn't a 'no rituals' rule in the 'create scroll' spell to begin with, we have no burden to find an exception. The only restriction exists in the alchemist OCC ability.

Secondly, this statement is saying that "few" people know how to make spells into scrolls. This could mean that making rituals into scrolls is even EASIER, and that far more than a few know how to do it.

More speculation versus official record.

Your official record has no explicit restrictions, I'm simply providing a viable alternative to YOUR speculative interpretation as the wording exclusively meaning a universal restriction.

One guy engaging in speculation = The other guy engaging in speculation. One guy engaging in speculation < The other guy providing canon material to back up his assertion.

Actually I'm providing supplemental speculation to compliment your own regarding the ambiguous meaning of the alchemist section. The idea that rituals can be scrolls isn't based on any speculation, rather than rituals are also described as spells too, and because there's an example of magic that's a ritual being in scroll form.

Thirdly, this is talking about an OCC ability. It's not even clear if an Alchemist NEEDS to know 'create scroll' to become an alchemist. So they may do it through an entirely different process. The Alchemist ability requires you to use PARCHMENT, and the level 11 spell (which Alchemists may not know, and could bypass their limitations) can put spells (and, I'm arguing, rituals too) on PAPER.

This statement has nothing whatsoever to do with the (officially) established rule that only spells can be put onto scrolls.

It has everything to do with it. Your officially established rule is describing the Alchemist OCC ability to make scrolls of PARCHMENT (ie treated animal skin) and not the spellcasting ability to make scrolls of PAPER (ie treated trees). The statement highlights the differences between the two. You wrongly treat them as interchangeable.

It doesn't matter if the Wizard, or the Demigod, or the Alchemist is attempting to inscribe said spell onto parchment, xerox copy paper, or oatmeal. Nor is the knowledge (or lack thereof) of the 'Create Scroll' spell relevant to a discussion about the prohibition against inscribing rituals.

Actually it is, because restrictions to an alchemist scroll-creating ability would not apply to a spell-based scroll-creating ability. For example: we know the parchment-only rule doesn't apply to the spell, so why would the no-rituals rule apply?

Already covered.

You didn't cover all of KC's interpretations, just some.

While the wording on page 247 of the PFRPG book has wording specific to the Alchemist, the wording on page 248 is clearly a more general statement. It doesn't say something like "Alchemists can make any level spell (not rituals) into a scroll," it says, "any level spell (not rituals) can be made into a scroll."

It's in the alchemist section, therefore it is a continuation of the alchemist discussion. It didn't every explicitly change the context from alchemist-scrolls to all-scrolls so there is no reason to assume such a shift.

One statement is Alchemist-specific, and one statement in the same series of paragraphs is more general.

Source?

Keep in mind that page 248 says "spell (not ritual) can be turned into a magic scroll spell".

Even if we were to buy into this applying outside alchemist-scrolls, all this would tell us is that a ritual can't be turned into a scroll-spell, not that it can't be turned into a scroll altogether. Scroll-spells are specific kinds of scrolls that contain spells in them. It may be that scrolls which contain ritual magic are called scroll-rituals.

I'm not getting how you think this is a generic statement not talking about alchemists though. Right after this statement it continues talking about alchemists, saying how they take advantage of situations, are quirky, etc. and continues under Availability and Custom-Made Scrolls. The entire section is clearly just about Alchemists.

About the only place I can see mention of non-alchemist stuff is the 'other means of acquiring' note at the very end. Even that is exclusively talking about spell scrolls, and not ALL scrolls.

As we know from the introduction, "a 'spell scroll' is a sheet of rolled parchment". As such: paper scrolls made via the Create Scroll spell CAN'T be spell scrolls, and no statement pertaining to 'spell scrolls' pertains to paper scrolls (or those nifty floppy disk scrolls they have in Nightbane). These are parchment-exclusive statements.

If, for example, someone comes across a passage for an NPC in a Palladium Book where one paragraph there reads:

"Carlotta The White, the famous Reid's Ranger, has 'Globe of Daylight' in her repertoire of spells"

and then further down in the entry they come across another passage that reads:

"Remember, folks, Globe Of Daylight is NOT powerful enough to damage or destroy a vampire"

....no objective observer of those passages would therefore conclude that ONLY Carlotta's casting of G-o-D is essentially powerless against vampires, but that other casters of the same spell could use it offensively.

On the contrary, since there are different versions of spells that share the same name, there very well could be an inferior version of GoD which doesn't harm vamps, and another version that did. This is easily accounted for using the TTGD rules for advantages and drawbacks. Prior to PF2 making them equal, the wizard's inferior copy of the fire warlock spell could only go 1/5 the distance, as an example.

as KC pointed out, this could mean that level 15 (or perhaps level 9) rituals can't be scrolled but that all other level rituals can.

Explain how you get past the clearly-worded "not rituals" part of that sentence.

I don't "get past" it, I'm looking at what the statements applies to. The sacred page248 statement is saying that alchemists can turn spells of any level into a (parchment) spell-scroll. This "not ritual" statement does not necessarily mean "alchemists can't make rituals into scrolls" as you are reading it. It can simply mean that rituals of all levels can't be. This could mean that a certain level (one might assume 15 as it tends to be harder) of rituals can't be parchment-scrolled, not that all of them can't.

Of course this 'all levels' thing is not present on page 247, but then, we know this is exclusively talking about alchemists (too).

It seems to me and probably most everyone else who looks at the passage that the words "not rituals" covers rituals of EVERY level whether Level 9, Level 15, or Level Whatever, but I'd like to see how you try to rules lawyer around it.

The number of people stuff 'seems' clear to is irrelevant, language is language. This isn't rules-lawyering, just reading with a mind open to different interpretations.

For example, if I were to write "humans of all heights (not gnomes) can bed Ishtar" this doesn't necessarily mean I'm saying Ishtar won't bed a Gnome, just that it can't be a Gnome of just any height who can bed her, but rather, an unusually tall Gnome.

He does because some idiot author game an NPC a scroll with a ritual on it

Might want to be careful how you talk about the owner of the company who wrote the majority of our books on his web site...

anxd he wants to make it a general rule rather than a notable exception...

We don't really need an exception to a rule that isn't necessarily there, and we just assumed to be there out of the convenience of wanting rituals to be a big spell non-transferable thing.

to his defence, the interdiction of scroll rituals could be construed as applying solely to alchemists, and not as a general rule on use of the 'Create Scroll' spell, even though a wizard being able to make an item an alchemist can't makes no sense.

Why does a wizard doing something an alchemist can't make no sense? Alchemists may only be 6th level. We don't even know if they have to pay any PPE to create their scrolls, their only limitations might just be time and supplies. I see no problem in a rather rare spell eclipsing an Alchemist's abilities. They're not necessarily the ultimate in all item creation.

A subjective reading of the passage should leave the average reader with the impression that the Author was both telling us how specialized the creation of Magic Scrolls are, AND laying out the (official) limitations on that process, even for beings as vastly knowledgeable as Alchemists.

The impression an 'average reader' gets is irrelevant to disagreement. Average readers may not pay as close attention (or understand the implications of minutiae) as well as others. Average readers can often come to misunderstand the RAW.

The problem here, is while you talk about subjectivity, you ignore that subjectively, these statements only pertain to Alchemists (first page) and scroll-spells (second page) the latter being parchment-based scrolls made by Alchemists and not the paper-based scrolls made by the spell.

We are all blessed with the capability to figure out when and if an Author has made a mistake in the creation of a given Player Character or NPC......because we are all blessed with enough intelligence to realize and remember that these Authors aren't omniscient and infallible.

I don't appreciate the subtle inference that those who disagree with you either lack intelligence or are not applying it. Not agreeing with your declaration of author mistake does not mean you apply more intellect than we do.

Scrolls were traditionally parchment-only (read PRPG) and the spell was modified in PF2 to allow them to be paper-based and not take hours upon hours to make (at least by the spell, Alchemists still might take that long, dunno). Is the allowance of paper in place of parchment a 'mistake'? What's the basis of that assumption?

To go back once again to perhaps the most infamous example of a 'flawed' NPC in the books: Would anybody here argue that Full Conversion Cyborgs actually can have psionics simply based on the existence of Sonya Romanov from Rifts: Warlords of Russia??

Actually yes, I will argue that. While RMB explicitly states that full conversion obliterates ALL psionic essence, it doesn't say that full conversion borgs can't have psionics. Instead, it more clearly means that it would obliterate any psionics already there. Since she retained 2, some unknown means must exist to retain them this way.

Can't be. Rifts Earth is stated as being unique.

Even things altogether similar are unique.

In the context of the statement, IIRC, it was discussing parallel Rifts Earths, stating that there aren't any.

To understand this context I guess I'll need to (re?)read this particular page... number?

[drewkitty ~..~]

What I don't see is why you all are pandering to his need to argue? Since he is trying to take an exception to the rules to be the rules.

[Tor]

Incorrect, the scroll the NPC in Vampire Kingdoms had is merely what got me thinking, stop putting up straw targets please.

My argument is that, unlike the Talisman spell which explicitly prohibits ritual magic, the Create Scroll spell has no such prohibition, ergo you can scrollify rituals.

The VK scroll is merely evidence of that conclusion manifested.

Still awaiting a valid counter-argument. The Alchemist section was a great find but ultimately found inadequate upon analysis, as it does not pertain to the Create Scroll spell.

[Svartalf]

Because it's fun? More fun than saying : "use whatever house rules you want in your campaign and stop bothering us"

[Killer Cyborg]

Can't be. Rifts Earth is stated as being unique.

Even things altogether similar are unique.

In the context of the statement, IIRC, it was discussing parallel Rifts Earths, stating that there aren't any.

To understand this context I guess I'll need to (re?)read this particular page... number?

Can't recall, unfortunately.
I'll let you know if I do.

[Killer Cyborg]

To be fair the section on page 248 of the PF book is dealing with scrolls. It could be only as they apply to alchemists, or it could be an expansion on scrolls. My theory is that its basic rules for scrolls, since the last paragraph talks about other sources of scrolls (which were all the ways in PF1 where this is C/P from).....which implies that Priests, Gods, and Men of Magic all use the same rules.
*shrugs* Personal mileage will vary

Flip back to p. 246.
Notice the BIG, bolded, framed heading of "Shopping at the Alchemist Shop."
That's the context for this entire section, up until the next BIG, bolded, framed heading of "Magic Items," which is related

The "Selling Magic Scrolls" section that we're discussing is a sub-sections of "Shopping at the Alchemist Shop."
It's still in the specific context of Alchemists.
Which is why there is that small section headed "Other means of acquiring spell scrolls," because everything before that particular sub-section is specifically discussing Alchemists, in the context of what Alchemists make and sell at their shop.

[eliakon]

To be fair the section on page 248 of the PF book is dealing with scrolls. It could be only as they apply to alchemists, or it could be an expansion on scrolls. My theory is that its basic rules for scrolls, since the last paragraph talks about other sources of scrolls (which were all the ways in PF1 where this is C/P from).....which implies that Priests, Gods, and Men of Magic all use the same rules.
*shrugs* Personal mileage will vary

Flip back to p. 246.
Notice the BIG, bolded, framed heading of "Shopping at the Alchemist Shop."
That's the context for this entire section, up until the next BIG, bolded, framed heading of "Magic Items," which is related

The "Selling Magic Scrolls" section that we're discussing is a sub-sections of "Shopping at the Alchemist Shop."
It's still in the specific context of Alchemists.
Which is why there is that small section headed "Other means of acquiring spell scrolls," because everything before that particular sub-section is specifically discussing Alchemists, in the context of what Alchemists make and sell at their shop.

Does this mean that Farie Food, medical herbs, and poisons, are also only from Alchemists? Or does it suggest that they took all the magic item stuff and put it in one section.

[Tor]

Alchemists can re-sell things others make (like fairie food) although my bet is they have a means of prepping herbs/poisons.

They can make scrolls and are more like to sell their own than buy and re-sell others'.

The rare instances where alchemists will buy a scroll will usually be if they don't know the spell and want to learn it, or it's some sweet spell strength they can't replicate.

[eliakon]

My point is that assuming that because the rules for scrolls are in the Alchemist section means they only apply to Alchemist scrolls, is equivalent to assuming that since the rules for Farie Food are in the Alchemist section they are Alchemical. *shrugs* A lot of this is going to require a personal opinion on what was meant. *Chalks up more victories for poor editing, Cutting and Pasting, and bad layout."

[Tor]

The scroll section of alchemists talks about them making it without necessitating that they know the spell, and necessitates that they be non-paper, so it's clearly referring only to their kind.

If they could create Fairy Food then you'd have an argument.

[Killer Cyborg]

A lot of this is going to require a personal opinion on what was meant.

Exactly.
So it's NOT an airtight case.

[Killer Cyborg]

To be fair the section on page 248 of the PF book is dealing with scrolls. It could be only as they apply to alchemists, or it could be an expansion on scrolls. My theory is that its basic rules for scrolls, since the last paragraph talks about other sources of scrolls (which were all the ways in PF1 where this is C/P from).....which implies that Priests, Gods, and Men of Magic all use the same rules.
*shrugs* Personal mileage will vary

Flip back to p. 246.
Notice the BIG, bolded, framed heading of "Shopping at the Alchemist Shop."
That's the context for this entire section, up until the next BIG, bolded, framed heading of "Magic Items," which is related

The "Selling Magic Scrolls" section that we're discussing is a sub-sections of "Shopping at the Alchemist Shop."
It's still in the specific context of Alchemists.
Which is why there is that small section headed "Other means of acquiring spell scrolls," because everything before that particular sub-section is specifically discussing Alchemists, in the context of what Alchemists make and sell at their shop.

Does this mean that Farie Food, medical herbs, and poisons, are also only from Alchemists? Or does it suggest that they took all the magic item stuff and put it in one section.

Dude, look at the Chapter heading.

[cornholioprime]

Speculation on your part versus canon information on my part. Feel free to "fight" all you want, your say-so doesn't supplant canon.

What speculation? The alchemist-canon-applies-to-the-spell approach has clearly poked holes in it. Those statements don't apply.

And don't try the "it's another world" argument, either; rules of magic regularly cross over from other Palladium settings into Rifts and back again, usually with little more than a point-to-point SDC to MDC conversion.

Why specify world if it worked beyond the world?

It is the relative power levels of Palladium Magic that get a change on Rifts Earth (most commonly a boost to range, duration, and damage), not usually the rules behind how the magic works.

What about casting speed? Magic is slower-cast in PF, even by HoM, where using Rifts' casting speed is merely an optional rule and not the default rate.

There are obviously exceptions to that rule, obviously instances where the rules for something change drastically or completely when going from one world to the other; the only problem here is that you have is that you have not yet proven that this is one of them.

Since there isn't a 'no rituals' rule in the 'create scroll' spell to begin with, we have no burden to find an exception. The only restriction exists in the alchemist OCC ability.

Secondly, this statement is saying that "few" people know how to make spells into scrolls. This could mean that making rituals into scrolls is even EASIER, and that far more than a few know how to do it.

More speculation versus official record.

Your official record has no explicit restrictions, I'm simply providing a viable alternative to YOUR speculative interpretation as the wording exclusively meaning a universal restriction.

One guy engaging in speculation = The other guy engaging in speculation. One guy engaging in speculation < The other guy providing canon material to back up his assertion.

Actually I'm providing supplemental speculation to compliment your own regarding the ambiguous meaning of the alchemist section. The idea that rituals can be scrolls isn't based on any speculation, rather than rituals are also described as spells too, and because there's an example of magic that's a ritual being in scroll form.

Thirdly, this is talking about an OCC ability. It's not even clear if an Alchemist NEEDS to know 'create scroll' to become an alchemist. So they may do it through an entirely different process. The Alchemist ability requires you to use PARCHMENT, and the level 11 spell (which Alchemists may not know, and could bypass their limitations) can put spells (and, I'm arguing, rituals too) on PAPER.

This statement has nothing whatsoever to do with the (officially) established rule that only spells can be put onto scrolls.

It has everything to do with it. Your officially established rule is describing the Alchemist OCC ability to make scrolls of PARCHMENT (ie treated animal skin) and not the spellcasting ability to make scrolls of PAPER (ie treated trees). The statement highlights the differences between the two. You wrongly treat them as interchangeable.

It doesn't matter if the Wizard, or the Demigod, or the Alchemist is attempting to inscribe said spell onto parchment, xerox copy paper, or oatmeal. Nor is the knowledge (or lack thereof) of the 'Create Scroll' spell relevant to a discussion about the prohibition against inscribing rituals.

Actually it is, because restrictions to an alchemist scroll-creating ability would not apply to a spell-based scroll-creating ability. For example: we know the parchment-only rule doesn't apply to the spell, so why would the no-rituals rule apply?

Already covered.

You didn't cover all of KC's interpretations, just some.

While the wording on page 247 of the PFRPG book has wording specific to the Alchemist, the wording on page 248 is clearly a more general statement. It doesn't say something like "Alchemists can make any level spell (not rituals) into a scroll," it says, "any level spell (not rituals) can be made into a scroll."

It's in the alchemist section, therefore it is a continuation of the alchemist discussion. It didn't every explicitly change the context from alchemist-scrolls to all-scrolls so there is no reason to assume such a shift.

One statement is Alchemist-specific, and one statement in the same series of paragraphs is more general.

Source?

Keep in mind that page 248 says "spell (not ritual) can be turned into a magic scroll spell".

Even if we were to buy into this applying outside alchemist-scrolls, all this would tell us is that a ritual can't be turned into a scroll-spell, not that it can't be turned into a scroll altogether. Scroll-spells are specific kinds of scrolls that contain spells in them. It may be that scrolls which contain ritual magic are called scroll-rituals.

I'm not getting how you think this is a generic statement not talking about alchemists though. Right after this statement it continues talking about alchemists, saying how they take advantage of situations, are quirky, etc. and continues under Availability and Custom-Made Scrolls. The entire section is clearly just about Alchemists.

About the only place I can see mention of non-alchemist stuff is the 'other means of acquiring' note at the very end. Even that is exclusively talking about spell scrolls, and not ALL scrolls.

As we know from the introduction, "a 'spell scroll' is a sheet of rolled parchment". As such: paper scrolls made via the Create Scroll spell CAN'T be spell scrolls, and no statement pertaining to 'spell scrolls' pertains to paper scrolls (or those nifty floppy disk scrolls they have in Nightbane). These are parchment-exclusive statements.

If, for example, someone comes across a passage for an NPC in a Palladium Book where one paragraph there reads:

"Carlotta The White, the famous Reid's Ranger, has 'Globe of Daylight' in her repertoire of spells"

and then further down in the entry they come across another passage that reads:

"Remember, folks, Globe Of Daylight is NOT powerful enough to damage or destroy a vampire"

....no objective observer of those passages would therefore conclude that ONLY Carlotta's casting of G-o-D is essentially powerless against vampires, but that other casters of the same spell could use it offensively.

On the contrary, since there are different versions of spells that share the same name, there very well could be an inferior version of GoD which doesn't harm vamps, and another version that did. This is easily accounted for using the TTGD rules for advantages and drawbacks. Prior to PF2 making them equal, the wizard's inferior copy of the fire warlock spell could only go 1/5 the distance, as an example.

as KC pointed out, this could mean that level 15 (or perhaps level 9) rituals can't be scrolled but that all other level rituals can.

Explain how you get past the clearly-worded "not rituals" part of that sentence.

I don't "get past" it, I'm looking at what the statements applies to. The sacred page248 statement is saying that alchemists can turn spells of any level into a (parchment) spell-scroll. This "not ritual" statement does not necessarily mean "alchemists can't make rituals into scrolls" as you are reading it. It can simply mean that rituals of all levels can't be. This could mean that a certain level (one might assume 15 as it tends to be harder) of rituals can't be parchment-scrolled, not that all of them can't.

Of course this 'all levels' thing is not present on page 247, but then, we know this is exclusively talking about alchemists (too).

It seems to me and probably most everyone else who looks at the passage that the words "not rituals" covers rituals of EVERY level whether Level 9, Level 15, or Level Whatever, but I'd like to see how you try to rules lawyer around it.

The number of people stuff 'seems' clear to is irrelevant, language is language. This isn't rules-lawyering, just reading with a mind open to different interpretations.

For example, if I were to write "humans of all heights (not gnomes) can bed Ishtar" this doesn't necessarily mean I'm saying Ishtar won't bed a Gnome, just that it can't be a Gnome of just any height who can bed her, but rather, an unusually tall Gnome.

He does because some idiot author game an NPC a scroll with a ritual on it

Might want to be careful how you talk about the owner of the company who wrote the majority of our books on his web site...

anxd he wants to make it a general rule rather than a notable exception...

We don't really need an exception to a rule that isn't necessarily there, and we just assumed to be there out of the convenience of wanting rituals to be a big spell non-transferable thing.

to his defence, the interdiction of scroll rituals could be construed as applying solely to alchemists, and not as a general rule on use of the 'Create Scroll' spell, even though a wizard being able to make an item an alchemist can't makes no sense.

Why does a wizard doing something an alchemist can't make no sense? Alchemists may only be 6th level. We don't even know if they have to pay any PPE to create their scrolls, their only limitations might just be time and supplies. I see no problem in a rather rare spell eclipsing an Alchemist's abilities. They're not necessarily the ultimate in all item creation.

A subjective reading of the passage should leave the average reader with the impression that the Author was both telling us how specialized the creation of Magic Scrolls are, AND laying out the (official) limitations on that process, even for beings as vastly knowledgeable as Alchemists.

The impression an 'average reader' gets is irrelevant to disagreement. Average readers may not pay as close attention (or understand the implications of minutiae) as well as others. Average readers can often come to misunderstand the RAW.

The problem here, is while you talk about subjectivity, you ignore that subjectively, these statements only pertain to Alchemists (first page) and scroll-spells (second page) the latter being parchment-based scrolls made by Alchemists and not the paper-based scrolls made by the spell.

We are all blessed with the capability to figure out when and if an Author has made a mistake in the creation of a given Player Character or NPC......because we are all blessed with enough intelligence to realize and remember that these Authors aren't omniscient and infallible.

I don't appreciate the subtle inference that those who disagree with you either lack intelligence or are not applying it. Not agreeing with your declaration of author mistake does not mean you apply more intellect than we do.

Scrolls were traditionally parchment-only (read PRPG) and the spell was modified in PF2 to allow them to be paper-based and not take hours upon hours to make (at least by the spell, Alchemists still might take that long, dunno). Is the allowance of paper in place of parchment a 'mistake'? What's the basis of that assumption?

To go back once again to perhaps the most infamous example of a 'flawed' NPC in the books: Would anybody here argue that Full Conversion Cyborgs actually can have psionics simply based on the existence of Sonya Romanov from Rifts: Warlords of Russia??

Actually yes, I will argue that. While RMB explicitly states that full conversion obliterates ALL psionic essence, it doesn't say that full conversion borgs can't have psionics. Instead, it more clearly means that it would obliterate any psionics already there. Since she retained 2, some unknown means must exist to retain them this way.

Can't be. Rifts Earth is stated as being unique.

Even things altogether similar are unique.

In the context of the statement, IIRC, it was discussing parallel Rifts Earths, stating that there aren't any.

To understand this context I guess I'll need to (re?)read this particular page... number?

TO BE COVERED, SOON, IN A SEPARATE THREAD.

[Svartalf]

MMMh, isn't 'spell with a long casting time' the very definition of a ritual?

[Killer Cyborg]

Did anyone else realize that Transformation is NOT a ritual simply a high level spell?
It still requires a long casting time, nobody said that these high level spells are specifically rituals, just usually cast that way due to how long it takes to cast them. For Example , Sanctum, WAll of Id, Crimson wall of lictalon, can all be cast with the right PPE , but are usually casted as rituals due to the long PPE costs.

It kinda uses the word "ritual."
Right there next to the title.

[Tor]

Interesting, could you point me to where the spell version is? It's a ritual in my RMB and that's the oldest book I can recall seeing it in. I don't recall it being present in the original PRPG line.

Looking forward to the Sonya Romanov thread cPrime.

[Killer Cyborg]

Transformation is a powerful spell that transforms a normal
human being into a grisly, demonic monster. although it's listed as a ritual... i think it's cause it's a high level spell. nothing in it really says that it can't be casted on a whim by a God like being.

Well, there's that word "ritual."
That kind of says it.

[Tor]

Yeah, while all spells of a higher (forget the specific range) level (or actually ANY spell if you're a ritual cast in TTGD) can be cast as rituals, the reverse isn't true, so anything described as a ritual can't automatically be cast as a spell unless explicitly indicated, otherwise you need to convert it via TTGD into a non-ritual, but then unless you add some other kind of drawback it's going to be higher-level and cost more and stuff.

The issue with Create Scroll though, is that 'spell' has ambiguous uses, and while it has been used to mean 'non-ritual', it has been used in other broader ways as well to collectively mean all spells and rituals.

Transformation (ritual) is an example of this, with the opening sentence of its description saying "Transformation is a powerful spell".

Nightbane has some of that too:
*130/133 for Call Creature and Charm Weapon both refer to a 'spell caster' in spite of them being rituals.
*137 where Ritual: Call Nightlord says "this spell is very rare"
*139 Ritual: Eye4eye says "spell caster" and "Only damage that harms... is affected by this spell"
*144 Bonding (Ritual) says duration "varies with each individual spell"
*148 says Enchant Weapon ritual is similar to the "Charm Weapon spell" (p133) which is also a ritual

[eliakon]

Yeah, while all spells of a higher (forget the specific range) level (or actually ANY spell if you're a ritual cast in TTGD) can be cast as rituals, the reverse isn't true, so anything described as a ritual can't automatically be cast as a spell unless explicitly indicated, otherwise you need to convert it via TTGD into a non-ritual, but then unless you add some other kind of drawback it's going to be higher-level and cost more and stuff.

The issue with Create Scroll though, is that 'spell' has ambiguous uses, and while it has been used to mean 'non-ritual', it has been used in other broader ways as well to collectively mean all spells and rituals.

Transformation (ritual) is an example of this, with the opening sentence of its description saying "Transformation is a powerful spell".

Nightbane has some of that too:
*130/133 for Call Creature and Charm Weapon both refer to a 'spell caster' in spite of them being rituals.
*137 where Ritual: Call Nightlord says "this spell is very rare"
*139 Ritual: Eye4eye says "spell caster" and "Only damage that harms... is affected by this spell"
*144 Bonding (Ritual) says duration "varies with each individual spell"
*148 says Enchant Weapon ritual is similar to the "Charm Weapon spell" (p133) which is also a ritual

They are all spells
Some are 'incantations' some are 'rituals'
A ritual follows the rules for rituals (takes time etc)....if its a spell, that is NOT a ritual then it doesn't.....

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, while all spells of a higher (forget the specific range) level (or actually ANY spell if you're a ritual cast in TTGD) can be cast as rituals, the reverse isn't true, so anything described as a ritual can't automatically be cast as a spell unless explicitly indicated, otherwise you need to convert it via TTGD into a non-ritual, but then unless you add some other kind of drawback it's going to be higher-level and cost more and stuff.

The issue with Create Scroll though, is that 'spell' has ambiguous uses, and while it has been used to mean 'non-ritual', it has been used in other broader ways as well to collectively mean all spells and rituals.

Transformation (ritual) is an example of this, with the opening sentence of its description saying "Transformation is a powerful spell".

Nightbane has some of that too:
*130/133 for Call Creature and Charm Weapon both refer to a 'spell caster' in spite of them being rituals.
*137 where Ritual: Call Nightlord says "this spell is very rare"
*139 Ritual: Eye4eye says "spell caster" and "Only damage that harms... is affected by this spell"
*144 Bonding (Ritual) says duration "varies with each individual spell"
*148 says Enchant Weapon ritual is similar to the "Charm Weapon spell" (p133) which is also a ritual

They are all spells
Some are 'incantations' some are 'rituals'
A ritual follows the rules for rituals (takes time etc)....if its a spell, that is NOT a ritual then it doesn't.....

Exactly.