Homeworld type motherships in phaseworld?

[glitterboy2098]

i've been replaying the video game Homeworld, and started to wonder if the massive mobile base/shipyard "mothership" concept could be applied to Phaseworld..

for those who have not played the game, you control a fleet of starships in RTS fashion, but instead of building a base, you have a 'mothership', a massive starship can not only carry small craft and escorts internally through FTL trips, but also has resource processing systems and factories/shipyards capable of building pretty much anything but another mothership. (though in the game, a "carrier" is basically a mini-mothership, able to process mined resources, build smallcraft and escorts (as well as the lightest capital ships) and carry them through FTL as well. and a mothership can build carriers)

while the game assumes mining and building is relatively fast (mainly because the game would be boring otherwise), could the idea of a mobile fleetbase/shipyard work in phase world? the ability to FTL into a remote system, chew up a few dozen asteroids and build a fleet anywhere seems like it would be a useful ability.. possibly a war winning one, even if the process takes a much longer period of time than in the game. even if not used in such fashion, having what is basically a mobile starbase able to support quite large fleets would make defending a border region easier.. the mobility would make it harder to find and destroy (unlike a stationary base), and onboard production would make repair, upkeep, and resupply of a fleet easier due to shorter supply lines. the downside of course would be that your putting a lot of important stuff into one ship. and if you lose that ship the fleet gets hung out to dry with a limited supply chain.

from an engineering perspective, the most immediate issue i could see for phaseworld is the sheer size you'd need.. Fleets of the three galaxies established that contragravitic drives have a size limit for what they can propel effectively.. and that the battleships of the CCW and TGE are already over that size, relying on finicky engineering to sidestep it. when you consider these ships are about a mile long.. and a 'mothership' class vessel in the homeworld vein would be 10x to 100x larger at minimum (very probably even larger), the engineering of the drive would obviously become a hurdle. second would be the production facilities.. we don't know what phaseworld factories look like.. beyond the fact they do not have star trek like replicator systems. the ability to produce anything bigger than a Hunter sized destroyer might be unlikely.. but fighters, shuttles and munitions seem very probable for a phaseworld tech 'mothership'

if we go outside phaseworld though, we can find some mothership like vessels. the massive base of Dolza's in robotech for example, was essentually this sort of vessel for the Grand Fleet.. command ship, resupply center, and even some production ability. the Robotech Factory Sattelites are a more production oriented equivilent of a mothership class vessel.. and depending on which sources you consult, those run between the size of a large asteroid to that of earth's moon. the massive ship of the marduk in Macross II, along with the fleet command ships in the macross DYRL film are also pretty much mothership type vessels.. massive ships, mobile living and production facilities.

[Chronicle]

I don't see why nit

[Nekira Sudacne]

The current Contragravity drives cannot support it, you would need some other method of FTL propulsion.

To look at examples, Fold-Space drives a-la Dolza's battleships are clearly able to do it. because fold-space drives do not rely on actually moving through 3-dimensional space, but instead seem to create a folded "bridge" between two points of space, the mass of the thing moved dosn't appear to matter, limited only by the energy available to power the fold space drive. Granted, considering the insane amounts of power generated by even tiny protoculture generators and the ludicrious-sized ones on the battleship, I would say nothing except protoculture or mechanoids "heart of a star" plasma generators could manage it.

Dominators quantum-slipstream drives obviously could do it, but even if you get your hands on an intact ship it'd probablly take centuries to reverse-engineer it, considering how mind bogglingly far advanced over current 3G tech. It's not even a matter of figuring out how it works. their technology operates on principles the 3G hasn't even heard of. They'd need to develop entire new feilds of physics before they could begin to decipher it.

[taalismn]

For big monster motherships like that I use some of the earlier Palladium FTL drives(dating back to the Mechanoids books) where light year rate is measured in some cases in DAYS or WEEKS...or use the Manhunter system that consumes iron mass, only scale it accordingly.
The trick is to make it much LESS convenient than building lots of smaller more practical and more conventional CG platforms(ships), so that your mothership is either left in the dust travel-wise or that it better have some idea WHERE it's going first before it goes gallivanting around the galaxy because each FTL trip is EXPENSIVE(no joyridding your drive-equipped moon over to Phaseworld for a cuppa). It also encourages the crew to have a fleet of smaller, faster, scoutships to make sure that while the big Hiobo Mothership is creeping through Overspace to its next destination, the Kreeghor Punishment Fleet isn't using the appreciable time lag to gather there in ambush.

[Braden Campbell]

here's a thought - what if the ship is made of something very strong, but very light? It could therefore be huge, but have comparatively low mass.

Also, Homeworld uses some type of rift-jump drive, so mass isn't really an issue if you go the magic (or Robotech space fold) route.

[KLM]

Remember the UWW's Asteroid Eaters? The largest one has 5 million inhabitants.

They might not have FTL-drives, but opening a Rift is always an option.

Also, most power blocks have access to Rift-drives.

[Nekira Sudacne]

here's a thought - what if the ship is made of something very strong, but very light? It could therefore be huge, but have comparatively low mass.

Also, Homeworld uses some type of rift-jump drive, so mass isn't really an issue if you go the magic (or Robotech space fold) route.

If you somehow made a mothership out of Lithium, the lightest metal known to man (any other alloy would by definition be heavier due to heavier atoms being used), ignoring the fact it couldn't possibly support a ship, it would still be too massive for any known CG technology. remember we're not talking a ship twice or three times the size of an emancipator-class. we're talking 100x it's size, following the square cube law for mass.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Lithium... humm your hull is both hull and power storage. This might be how the Dominators's ships' hulls are made.

[Svartalf]

Emancipator class? What's that from already?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Emancipator class? What's that from already?

Fleets of the three galaxies. it's the CCW's newest, battleship, so big they had to invent a new CG drive to move it.

[taalismn]

here's a thought - what if the ship is made of something very strong, but very light? It could therefore be huge, but have comparatively low mass.

.

Like that...size of the Death Star, but it's a soap bubble.

[gaby]

Are you thinking like a Battletech Jumpship,that links with Drops ships?

[DhAkael]

Then of course you have Ian M. Banks' Culture G.S.V.s; mobile CONTINENTS that double as colony, factory, starbase AND warship (in extremis). GSV's CAN move FTL (very rapidly too if needed) but why bother? That's for the smaller ships.

[Blue_Lion]

A mother ship is possible but would require a different type of propulsion. What he is talking about reminds me of a RTS I played back in the 90's.
Rift drive would seam to be the way to go, as in phase world fold drives are suppose to be temperamental. If it was a race that had lost its home world its ship could be special one that only they have so they might be the only ones with a FTL drive that can move something that big. But there smaller ships might not have FTL. Perhaps the only FTL they have can only be done on a massive scale for some reason.

[glitterboy2098]

A mother ship is possible but would require a different type of propulsion. What he is talking about reminds me of a RTS I played back in the 90's.
Rift drive would seam to be the way to go, as in phase world fold drives are suppose to be temperamental. If it was a race that had lost its home world its ship could be special one that only they have so they might be the only ones with a FTL drive that can move something that big. But there smaller ships might not have FTL. Perhaps the only FTL they have can only be done on a massive scale for some reason.

you mean Homeworld?

[ShadowLogan]

I do not see why the concept can't work in Phase World (Dominators, and maybe even "The Intruders", would seem to be good candidates for users w/n PW).

Of the issues raised:
-is there a reason that it has to be FTL capable?
-is there a reason the ship itself has to be that large, maybe it has a smaller "core" that does the traveling and when it reaches somewhere new it starts to "grow" a new "shell" that would be discarded (or converted into a space station) when it moves on.
-does the mothership have to be a jack-of-all-trades, could there be smaller more specialized versions that deal with specific products to produce. Could even have a fleet of ships working together (either as a fleet, or "docked" to a larger frame)

[Blue_Lion]

I do not see why the concept can't work in Phase World (Dominators, and maybe even "The Intruders", would seem to be good candidates for users w/n PW).

Of the issues raised:
-is there a reason that it has to be FTL capable?
-is there a reason the ship itself has to be that large, maybe it has a smaller "core" that does the traveling and when it reaches somewhere new it starts to "grow" a new "shell" that would be discarded (or converted into a space station) when it moves on.
-does the mothership have to be a jack-of-all-trades, could there be smaller more specialized versions that deal with specific products to produce. Could even have a fleet of ships working together (either as a fleet, or "docked" to a larger frame)

The game I remember it was a substitute for a lost world that used portals to jump from place to place. It would enter a system if it was not viable for habitation would strip the resources it needed from the system to keep searching, and was involved in a massive war. Part of the reason the ship was so big was it had billions of people on it. They had lost their home world and the ship was how they kept their people alive, all their people.

posting an actual conversation is a violation of PB rules but in theory it can be made in a persons private game.

[FatherMorpheus]

For me the answer to the travel would be a Rift engine of some sort. The ship would be so large and have so many people on board, that you could have a power system which would be powered by the innate PPE. You would make your jump to the new location, scout out, harvest materials, etc. Rinse repeat.

All the ship would really need are some sort of slower than FTL system to move around within the system they entered. This allows you to sneak around both the Contragrav issue and Fold Engine issue.

Just a thought.

[glitterboy2098]

hmm.. maybe a fold drive? i know they're less popular in phase world due to issues of navigation, but they certainly would be able to handle a super-massive vehicle. and if it's not going to be used very often, the inaccuracy of the fold might not be as big of an issue.

[eliakon]

hmm.. maybe a fold drive? i know they're less popular in phase world due to issues of navigation, but they certainly would be able to handle a super-massive vehicle. and if it's not going to be used very often, the inaccuracy of the fold might not be as big of an issue.

Perhaps the inaccuracy is why its so big? If you only know your going to get 'to some star system someplace' you might want something big enough to support things while you scout it, figure out what there is to do/get/fight/buy/whatever there and do/get/fight/buy/whatever.....

[ShadowLogan]

The game I remember it was a substitute for a lost world that used portals to jump from place to place. It would enter a system if it was not viable for habitation would strip the resources it needed from the system to keep searching, and was involved in a massive war. Part of the reason the ship was so big was it had billions of people on it. They had lost their home world and the ship was how they kept their people alive, all their people.

posting an actual conversation is a violation of PB rules but in theory it can be made in a persons private game.

I know I purchased the game (or something under the title) and played it for a bit, but lost interest so I don't remember much on it beyond that I did not like the interface (I was coming off of Outpost 2 which was 2D environment) due to the 3D environment. IINM I got more out of the demo for an ancient egypt Sim. City type-game than the main game. IINM I still have it somewhere.

And you are correct we can't do conversions, but that doesn't mean that we have to follow the game's mothership to closely. The more it looks like just the generic concept the less likely it will look like a conversion. And the OP did bring up other examples from other lines, so there is no reason to restrict ourselves to just the "Homeworld" game.

hmm.. maybe a fold drive? i know they're less popular in phase world due to issues of navigation, but they certainly would be able to handle a super-massive vehicle. and if it's not going to be used very often, the inaccuracy of the fold might not be as big of an issue.

IINM the Intruders (PW SB) use Fold Drives w/o issue in PW's 3Galaxies. That would suggest the 3Galaxies issue with the technology may be more of maturity with the technology than anything else. Example the 3G FDs may be "incomplete" compared to successful heavy users of the technology (like RT, Macross 2, or the Intruders).

[Blue_Lion]

They idea for super capital mother ships has shown up in Sci fi allot. So you could make one but none of the current races use them so perhaps a alien race arrives in phase world that travels huge super capital ship. Huge the size of small moon with billions of members of the race.

*So then the issue is what is the race goal. IE looking for world to therefrom, find a new home world, or invaders taking inhabited worlds as there own.

*How does the ship move-fold drive, rift drive or standard FTL drive. Does the ship have sub light drive or can it only move by fold/rift.

*Does it carry other ships in it when it travel-it could be a carrier for a capital ships.

*How does it gather and process resources.


Once you have that you can go about designing the ship and race for a game.

[Blue_Lion]

Example

**Star Dragons- Race of space fairing dragons that fly in huge ships. There fighters are the size of freighters or destroys. The have a race of humanoid/dragon hybrids that help build and maintain there ships. They came from another dimension. There goal in the three galaxy is capture and subjection of worlds to fuel there empire.

The capital ship travels by a trans-dimensional fold drive. The mother ship is set into orbit when it enters a enters a solar system, beyond can not travel without its Fold drive.

The mother ship carries and launches over 1,000 dragon fighter craft in addition to humanoid transports, interceptors and mining craft. The goal is to over whelm a systems defenses by shier force and lay claim.

The humanoids travel out in mobile mining ships to gather more resources and serve as ground forces in occupation with the dragons striking with shock and awe. Rapid cloning is used to create more humanoid/dragon hybrids to replace losses as well build an occupation force.

**The Trisklor Doppelganger lost ship. This a huge ship of vegetable based doppelgangers similar to the Dop-elpeop from AU. The mother ship serves as arc for there race to escape when there solar systems' sun went super nova. There goal is the survival of there species. During the exoduses from there home world an error in the worm hole drive that shifted the Trisklor ship to a new dimension. Although not evil there race has learn to be carful when dealing with other races do to fear and persecution so rely on there ability to become other races to interact with them.

The ship moves opening a worm hole to travel across space. This is seen as a rift like portal that the ship and its escort fleet fly throgh. The sub light drive moves the ship at a top speed of 160 KPH.

The ship has a escort fleet of ships to protect the mother ship from attacks. The mother ship has the ability to build new ships often building copies of common ships from the three galaxies, that are used to explore and interact with local powers to gather information.

It uses a series of transports and mining ships to gather spaced based resources to replace, repair and build new ships.

(If you really want I could flesh these out more.)

[Jerell]

here's a thought - what if the ship is made of something very strong, but very light? It could therefore be huge, but have comparatively low mass.

Yes indeed. Like the Hypercarbon the SDF-1 was built out of.

I always thought a 3G campaign with based on a Meagroad class ship would be fun.

[masslegion]

Has anyone considered that unless you are generating clones or some other way, isn't the size of your fleet going to be limited in size?

[Svartalf]

That's why we have Zentrans

[ShadowLogan]

Remember the UWW's Asteroid Eaters? The largest one has 5 million inhabitants.

They might not have FTL-drives, but opening a Rift is always an option.

Also, most power blocks have access to Rift-drives.

I just discovered these recently in DB3 on pg36, and they would seem to fit the concept of what gb2098 is looking for in the Phaseworld setting.

Granted there isn't much on them, just a short blurb.