Ultimate power-punch and 2nd-action blow-landing implication

[Tor]

Decided to take another look at http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... Eratta.pdf and noticed on the 18th page of the PDF errata for page 346. Would anyone know if this errata is the first instance of "lands on second blow" policy being introduced, or has there been an earlier book or guide or errata that has addressed this?

I am wondering about the implication of this though. Questions it brings to mind:
1*If it has a delayed landing and the first action is presumably a wind-up, could you get 2 dodge attempts? Can a dragon try 2 teleport dodges?
2*Could you spend that action they're winding up to just move and create enough distance that'd nullify the punch since you're now out of range without rolling anything at all?
3*Could you kill them in the interim and prevent the blow from landing?
4*Could you do a body flip attack and make them lose their next action and thus fail the punch?
5*Does this mean power punches can't be used as simultaneous attacks since those presumably cost 1 action and not more?
6*Does this mean you get TWO simultaneous attacks against a power puncher?
7*It doesn't mention PS bonus being doubled here, and I've seen that whole 'only the base die double' elsewhere, but I think in other cases I've heard of the PS damage also doubling, sometimes inconsistent.

If they don't land on the first action, is there any point to a power punch now besides...
1) sneak attacks
2) roleplaying-type "I'll let you throw the first punch" stuff
3) you're punching something spiky/firey and taking damage from eat hit you inflict so you want to maximize the ratio

Trying to think of some reasons.

[eliakon]

Decided to take another look at http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... Eratta.pdf and noticed on the 18th page of the PDF errata for page 346. Would anyone know if this errata is the first instance of "lands on second blow" policy being introduced, or has there been an earlier book or guide or errata that has addressed this?

I am wondering about the implication of this though. Questions it brings to mind:
1*If it has a delayed landing and the first action is presumably a wind-up, could you get 2 dodge attempts? Can a dragon try 2 teleport dodges?

No, the first action isn't an 'attack' so you cant dodge it any more than you can dodge me walking

2*Could you spend that action they're winding up to just move and create enough distance that'd nullify the punch since you're now out of range without rolling anything at all?

Probably.

3*Could you kill them in the interim and prevent the blow from landing?

Sure

4*Could you do a body flip attack and make them lose their next action and thus fail the punch?

Sure, if you have a body flip attack

5*Does this mean power punches can't be used as simultaneous attacks since those presumably cost 1 action and not more?

Yep

6*Does this mean you get TWO simultaneous attacks against a power puncher?

No You don't get to simultaneous attack me if I walk...same here, one attack one simo

7*It doesn't mention PS bonus being doubled here, and I've seen that whole 'only the base die double' elsewhere, but I think in other cases I've heard of the PS damage also doubling, sometimes inconsistent.

Magic Eight Ball says "Canon is cloudy, ask your GM"

If they don't land on the first action, is there any point to a power punch now besides...
1) sneak attacks
2) roleplaying-type "I'll let you throw the first punch" stuff
3) you're punching something spiky/firey and taking damage from eat hit you inflict so you want to maximize the ratio

Trying to think of some reasons.

Breaking stuff, super brawls, regenerations, if the GI Joe rule isn't in use its got a place, if you have something that will increase the hit ratio of one attack (beat insurmountable odds) that you wont hit otherwise....

[Tor]

So I guess if you can't SA with a power-punch, one major benefit to power-punching is it's useful against annoying SAers. They'd have to dual-strike you with paired WP to match that double damage... and only spend 1 action to do it. =/

Too bad you can't combine paired WP and power-punching. I've heard of power-kicks but not power-strikes. Power-slashing would be the ultimate vs dual-strikers. Well... there might be a god NPC somewhere out there who can power punch with a sword or something but I don't recall where if so.

[PigLickJF]

So I guess if you can't SA with a power-punch, one major benefit to power-punching is it's useful against annoying SAers. They'd have to dual-strike you with paired WP to match that double damage... and only spend 1 action to do it. =/

Actually, I would say someone can SA a power attack, but one cannot use a PA as an SA, so it still wouldn't be a good tactic against SAers.
So power attacker in action one starts winding up. Opponent basically gets a "free attack," since I also don't think you could dodge or parry while "winding up." Second action comes and power attacker finally swings, and opponent swings right back. Neither can dodge/parry each others' attacks due to SA. So you really don't gain anything PAing a SAer.

That being said, this seems to be another rule that flip-flops. I was just reading through the FAQ the other night and there the answer was a power attack only takes one action to perform, but doing so uses up two attacks.

I guess the RUE errata is probably the most up-to-date canon ruling and therefore supersedes the FAQ/any other older rulings, but if you don't like the way it works, I wouldn't worry too much about being beholden to it.

PigLick

[Alrik Vas]

This is why its best to either...

Let power attacks just soak up 2 actions immediately. Or...
Have them only use one attack, but you lose automatic parry until the next action cycle. or...
One Attack, -5 to strike.

[Killer Cyborg]

Decided to take another look at http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... Eratta.pdf and noticed on the 18th page of the PDF errata for page 346. Would anyone know if this errata is the first instance of "lands on second blow" policy being introduced, or has there been an earlier book or guide or errata that has addressed this?

I am wondering about the implication of this though. Questions it brings to mind:
1*If it has a delayed landing and the first action is presumably a wind-up, could you get 2 dodge attempts? Can a dragon try 2 teleport dodges?

You can't dodge until a successful strike roll is made.
But you can attempt to leave the combat, without needing to roll, while they're winding up.

2*Could you spend that action they're winding up to just move and create enough distance that'd nullify the punch since you're now out of range without rolling anything at all?

Possible. There's no rule against punching while running, so the person might be able to run after you.
In general, yeah.

3*Could you kill them in the interim and prevent the blow from landing?

I believe that killing a person is generally sufficient to keep them from punching you, yes.

4*Could you do a body flip attack and make them lose their next action and thus fail the punch?

Yes.

5*Does this mean power punches can't be used as simultaneous attacks since those presumably cost 1 action and not more?

I'd say that they can be, but only if you spend an attack winding up first.

6*Does this mean you get TWO simultaneous attacks against a power puncher?

No. You can only declare a simultaneous attack after a successful strike roll is made.
You only make one strike roll for a power punch.

7*It doesn't mention PS bonus being doubled here, and I've seen that whole 'only the base die double' elsewhere, but I think in other cases I've heard of the PS damage also doubling, sometimes inconsistent.

IIRC, the PS damage doesn't double.
But I think it might be inconsistent on this.

If they don't land on the first action, is there any point to a power punch now besides...
1) sneak attacks
2) roleplaying-type "I'll let you throw the first punch" stuff
3) you're punching something spiky/firey and taking damage from eat hit you inflict so you want to maximize the ratio
Trying to think of some reasons.

Sometimes, characters can inflict more than 2x damage with a power punch. Like Juicers, for example, who can inflict 1 MD on a power punch.
Other than that... not much comes to mind.

[Giant2005]

Power Punches do have their uses.
Sometimes I'm not sure I am going to attack at all but instead of wasting my action I'll like up a power punch or a called shot or something just in case. For instance I was surrounded by a Telekinetic Force Field in one game with the enemy pummeling it. Rather than sit there helpless, I lined up the best counter-attack I could for when the field fell.

[kaid]

If they don't land on the first action, is there any point to a power punch now besides...
1) sneak attacks
2) roleplaying-type "I'll let you throw the first punch" stuff
3) you're punching something spiky/firey and taking damage from eat hit you inflict so you want to maximize the ratio
Trying to think of some reasons.

Some robot vehicles and power armor have specialty power attacks that can be even more than twice as good as the normal punch attack or have special effects like the bruisers power punch which can send things flying so not only doe it do double damage but it also does a knock back/knock down and loss of initiative and attacks for the recipient of the attack.

[Tor]

So I guess if you can't SA with a power-punch,

Actually, I would say someone can SA a power attack, but one cannot use a PA as an SA

I believe I said 'SA with a PP' not 'SA a PP' I reached the same conclusion as you did, which is why I figure that SAing with dual-strike via paired WP is the only way to match the doubled output, assuming equality elsewhere.

That being said, this seems to be another rule that flip-flops. I was just reading through the FAQ the other night and there the answer was a power attack only takes one action to perform, but doing so uses up two attacks.

Yeah, we can either take that as a retcon, a 'different rules in different places' (if setting specific) or a 'Kevin never wrote THAT piece of FAQ and discounts it' or something.

There's no rule against punching while running, so the person might be able to run after you.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but some strike or speed penalties when this is done from Palladium would be nice. Not necessarily the same level of strike penalties that SHOOTERS get, of course, but something.

I'd say that they can be, but only if you spend an attack winding up first.

I guess that means that you could only SA using a PP if the attack you're SAing is also a PP or some other attack that takes 2 actions.

This potentially gets confusing with that inconsistent 'no hand to hand skill' class of people where they go from having 'bonus non-combat actions' initially to that weird 'even number of non-combat or half as many combat, spend 2 actions to get 1 attack' thing.

Sometimes, characters can inflict more than 2x damage with a power punch. Like Juicers, for example, who can inflict 1 MD on a power punch. Other than that... not much comes to mind.

Yeah there are cases like that... I think with some robots, spending 2 actions to combine 2 guns in one blast also occasionally ends up with more damage than the sum of their bases. Of course most of the time it's equal or less...

I was surrounded by a Telekinetic Force Field in one game with the enemy pummeling it. Rather than sit there helpless, I lined up the best counter-attack I could for when the field fell.

Since one doesn't know exactly when a field will fall (unless willingly lowering it) since that depends on the damage an enemy rolls, it makes me wonder if you can just continue to spend actions prepping the power punch.

Or if it works like Super Smash Bros where if you hold the position too long, you shatter and faint from the stress. Or if once you wind you're committed and have to launch on the next attack.

[Giant2005]

That being said, this seems to be another rule that flip-flops. I was just reading through the FAQ the other night and there the answer was a power attack only takes one action to perform, but doing so uses up two attacks.

Yeah, we can either take that as a retcon, a 'different rules in different places' (if setting specific) or a 'Kevin never wrote THAT piece of FAQ and discounts it' or something.

There are actually examples of it being attack first, miss the next action in the books - books that came out after the RUE too. The Thornhead Demon on page 157 of Sourcebook 1 Revised is an example "1D4 M.D. on a power punch but counts as two attacks so the tentacle can't strike the next melee round" (he only gets 1 attack per melee with that tentacle in question, so the skipped attack occurs after the power punch).

I'd say that they can be, but only if you spend an attack winding up first.

I guess that means that you could only SA using a PP if the attack you're SAing is also a PP or some other attack that takes 2 actions.

No.
He means you spend your action winding up a power punch and then they spend their action attacking you. You can simultaneous that with your power punch because you have already spent an action winding up.
Which is a pretty good use for it really - that would give you a clear advantage due to your undefendable attacks doing twice the damage of their undefendable attacks. It is more efficient than doing a regular attack which can be defended against and then doing a simultaneous attack.

[Tor]

We might possibly treat a Thornhead as a special case, their tentacles probably work like more of a throw/recovery thing like with returning arrows.

No. He means you spend your action winding up a power punch and then they spend their action attacking you. You can simultaneous that with your power punch because you have already spent an action winding up.

That's what I meant too...

The only thing inefficient about this strategy though is it won't work if nobody takes the wind-up bait. They could just back up and throw rocks.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's no rule against punching while running, so the person might be able to run after you.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but some strike or speed penalties when this is done from Palladium would be nice. Not necessarily the same level of strike penalties that SHOOTERS get, of course, but something.

Agreed- it would.

I'd say that they can be, but only if you spend an attack winding up first.

I guess that means that you could only SA using a PP if the attack you're SAing is also a PP or some other attack that takes 2 actions.

If they have a higher initiative than you do, then here's how it could work:
They attack. You parry, or take the hit.
You wind up.
They attack again, on their init, and you simo-attack, which you can do because you've already done the "winding up" part.

[kaid]

Also one thing to note during the wind up for a power attack it does not prevent you from moving you just cannot take an action that would require expending a melee action as that would interrupt the power punch.

You still should be able to parry with your off hand and auto dodge if you have it when attempting a power punch.

[Alrik Vas]

There's no rule against punching while running, so the person might be able to run after you.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but some strike or speed penalties when this is done from Palladium would be nice. Not necessarily the same level of strike penalties that SHOOTERS get, of course, but something.

Agreed- it would.

Check the Murderthon section of Juicer Uprising.

[Tor]

Yeah but in Murderthon everyone is running in the same direction...

[kaid]

Yeah but in Murderthon everyone is running in the same direction...

Well in the context of the power punch question it is pretty safe to assume they are going to be running in the same direction. It is unlikely that somebody is going to try to wind up for a power punch on a target running towards them and try to time that to occur at the right time to deliver the blow.

Typically its going to be one guy winds up the other guy backs away and the power puncher moves towards them to try to land their blow.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah but in Murderthon everyone is running in the same direction...

That isn't my point though. Murderthon gives rules for attacking in melee while moving. If you try to power punch someone and they move away from you, the rules there show you how you might catch them and still complete the maneuver.

If you're going to sit there and wait for someone to charge you, prepping a power punch, I'd probably just leave it up to an initiative roll, but that's a GM call.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah but in Murderthon everyone is running in the same direction...

Well in the context of the power punch question it is pretty safe to assume they are going to be running in the same direction. It is unlikely that somebody is going to try to wind up for a power punch on a target running towards them and try to time that to occur at the right time to deliver the blow.

Typically its going to be one guy winds up the other guy backs away and the power puncher moves towards them to try to land their blow.

If the GM gives you information like, "He's charging you. He'll reach you on the next attack," then that would be a good use of Power Punch.

[Tor]

It is unlikely that somebody is going to try to wind up for a power punch on a target running towards them and try to time that to occur at the right time to deliver the blow.

I don't understand this.

[Damian Magecraft]

missed an implication...
if it lands on the second attack then just like a spell it is interruptible.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, dodging while winding up, getting knocked down etc would interrupt just fine.

[Tor]

So no auto-dodging during the wind-up or something? I figure some guys like Juicers might manage to maintain their wind-up even during a parry or autododge though.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's never specified what exactly can or can not interrupt a power punch.
Other than the obvious stuff like Death, knockdown, incapacitation, etc., any rule a GM makes is a house rule.

[kaid]

missed an implication...
if it lands on the second attack then just like a spell it is interruptible.

Yes if you can take somebody down or force them to have to use an active non auto dodge or otherwise force them to use an action then you can interrupt it.


As for my comment about winding up for a power punch on somebody coming at you is mostly thinking about the game mechanics. The timing for when the attack would actually go off would make doing that in game questionable at best.

For the most part most power attacks are kinda questionable usefulness but there are cases such as juicers wanting to do MDC on punches or robots/power armor/RCC that have special effects that go off on a power attack they can be useful. People with auto dodge are also much more likely to get good usage out of power strikes as they can use auto dodge as a defense to mitigate damage and prevent being interrupted.

[Alrik Vas]

So no auto-dodging during the wind-up or something? I figure some guys like Juicers might manage to maintain their wind-up even during a parry or autododge though.

While KC pointed out that it would be a house rule, I think that dodging would interrupt a power punch. Auto-dodge is a different animal altogether, though.

It's like automatic parry, i don't think it would interrupt your power punch.

[Damian Magecraft]

So no auto-dodging during the wind-up or something? I figure some guys like Juicers might manage to maintain their wind-up even during a parry or autododge though.

While KC pointed out that it would be a house rule, I think that dodging would interrupt a power punch. Auto-dodge is a different animal altogether, though.

It's like automatic parry, i don't think it would interrupt your power punch.

and yet auto-dodge and parry both by RAW would interrupt a spell...
Personally I would use the same rules for interruption as apply to spell casting.

[Killer Cyborg]

So no auto-dodging during the wind-up or something? I figure some guys like Juicers might manage to maintain their wind-up even during a parry or autododge though.

While KC pointed out that it would be a house rule, I think that dodging would interrupt a power punch. Auto-dodge is a different animal altogether, though.

It's like automatic parry, i don't think it would interrupt your power punch.

and yet auto-dodge and parry both by RAW would interrupt a spell...
Personally I would use the same rules for interruption as apply to spell casting.

That is an acceptable house rule.

[Alrik Vas]

It's acceptable because he'd be the GM. I don't find the concentration used to land a huge KO haymaker and to warp reality with will alone to be anywhere near the same thing.

Though if people want to do it that way *shrug*

[Tor]

I would use the same rules for interruption as apply to spell casting.

Surely spellcasting is more complicated than punching though...

[Killer Cyborg]

I would use the same rules for interruption as apply to spell casting.

Surely spellcasting is more complicated than punching though...

Possibly.
But I'd say that any punch that requires 2-3 seconds of winding up IS pretty complex.

[Tor]

Ah but even in RUE, a level 1 guy with 4 attacks still spends over 3 seconds per punch.

One could choose to think of these punches' time cost not merely as all arm action, but of things like shifting stance. The normal punch would be the jab you throw with the front arm whereas the powerpunch would be the 'cross' you step into?

[McFacemelt]

For #7, it actually reads in the errata that you posted that PS bonuses do apply. But anything more than puny human strength doesn't get damage bonuses, just harder hitting punches so its only in that case that it applies.

I let my players power punches hit instantly, only so they run out of attacks quicker leaving me plenty of opportunity to make them shake in their MDC pampers.

Plus trying to hit someone with Super Power Punch without it working like that becomes somewhat ridiculous.
If my players have made me bring out the SN strength, super power punching, fist of the northstaring mega villain...
I want them being hit by him.

[say652]

Using Aps-Electricity (my favorite Aps) you can burn 2 attacks(until level 7) to Electric Flight into them while the are punching/shooting. Dealing 1D4×10 while the Electrical field shields you from damage. Just remember dodging & roll with impact also cost an action so you can end up with just an auto parry for defense pretty quickly.

[PSI-Lence]

i always figured it was meant to be on the second action after setting up/aiming and the wind-up (mostly stepping and finding an opening though with the wind up just before the attack)