Catyr Cosmo-Knight Queries

[Tor]

COSMOS

Amidst considering the Seljuks and the popular path to their CosmoKnightry, I noticed the preceding Catyr and began to wonder about them.

We know that Kreeghor have become Cosmo-Knights, and they are MDC creatures with supernatural strength and endurance (see natural abilities for latter).

Catyrs have these 3 properties as well. They are not explicitly described as being supernatural so... do you think they can become Cosmo-Knights?

MYSTICS

They have a very odd description too. They can select OCCS except "those that require psionics or mystic knowledge". It mentions a small percentage become Line Walkers... but surely THAT requires mystic knowledge? It also mentions they can learn magic as a mystic... doesn't that require psionics? Surely Mystics have some kind of "mystic" knowledge too.

FALLENS

If a Catyr can and does become a Cosmo-Knight, and then subsequently falls... how fast do they heal? Catyrs inherently heal slower than Cosmo-Knights, but heal twice as fast as a Fallen one. Would their natural healing kick back in and override the Cosmic remnants, or would they be worse off than they began?

[Svartalf]

Catyrs always seemed to me to be possible candidates for becoming CKnights... they are supernaturally strong and tough (MDC), but not supernatural beings per se.

While a rare Catyr COULD posssibly select a magic OCC (hyper rare but not impossible),he couldn't enter the Mystic class or any other PCC, because the race can't develop psionics, no ifs and no buts on that one.

As for a Fallen Catyr Knight, it's GM's call whether the Fallen's reduced regen rate or the Catyr's natural one takes precedence... but a Catyr Fallen will ALWAYS be a magic practitioner, no psionics possible.

[Tor]

Eh, I'm not clear if racial restrictions apply to someone, seeing as how the Cosmo-Knight transformation strips your racial vulnerabilities, they may still be gone after you Fall, a bit unclear in that regard. We might well see Seljuk LLWs and Catyr MMs.

It does say Catyrs can learn magic as a mystic...

Maybe there's a non-psionic Mystic class out there?

Like um... a Nightbane Mystic?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Catyr can select a magic class so long as it does not have a psi component. But it also said that most don't choose the path of magic.

As per the mentioning of them being able to be mystics I would take that as a typo because it conflicts with the specific statement that the Catya do not have the ability to be psychics.

However, it sounds to me that you are trying to find a rationalization or find a work around to be able to say they can be mystics.

Following that line of thought... You would need to model the Catya Mystic RCC after the Nightbane Mystic RCC. Yes, you would have to construct a whole Racial Char. Class to cover the text of the typo, because it has to sidestep the 'No Psi' of the racial description.

[Svartalf]

"mystic" bieng meant as in HU "mystic study" is likely.

[drewkitty ~..~]

"mystic" bieng meant as in HU "mystic study" is likely.

That would be taking the words out of the Rifts context.

[Svartalf]

My best bet is that the use of "mystic" was a mystake on the part of CJ, who forgot that mystics require psi ability, or maybe of the editor, who did not pay attention to the fact that Catyrs are non psionic.

[drewkitty ~..~]

My best bet is that the use of "mystic" was a mystake on the part of CJ, who forgot that mystics require psi ability, or maybe of the editor, who did not pay attention to the fact that Catyrs are non psionic.

Which is why I said the use of that name of a class was a typo.

[Tor]

I'd say going with Mystic Study is a good save Screw context.

[eliakon]

Or just say its a Mystic, but they don't get the psionics. They still have the intuitive link to magic, and just 'know' spells, and all that other mysticy stuff, but they don't get the psionics.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Manhunter has mystics that are either mages or mind mages... he might have confused it as being part of canon.

I take it you are talking about the Seeker class.
That along with the Psi Mystic (which is called the Mystic class in Rifts and NB) class are not available to Catyar without modification to excise the Psi components from the class.

[Tor]

The Mystic OCC from Rifts (RMBp85) and Mystic from Nightbane (NMBp117) are not the same class as each other, much less the same as the Psi-Mystic in PF2ndPg159.

Very similar, sure, but if you take a close look there are key differences:
*Rifts has the Sense Supernatural Evil and Opening Self to the Supernatural powers (Nightbane merely has the lesser 'sense evil' sensitive power)
*Rifts Mystics are better dancers, know instruments, can ride horses and survive in the wilderness, NB merely has better lore
*NB mystics are initially more resistant to psionics, but RMB mystics are more resistant in the long-run
*Rifts Mystics are easier to scare, but can learn a super psionic power (Nightbane Mystics were reprinted in TTGD and didn't have this added in, even though a note was made amending the ability for Guardians and Natural Psychics to get them)
*Psi-Mystics all have mind-block, some Mystics do not
*Psi-Mystics are master psychics, mere Mystics are only major
*Psi-Mystics have way more ISP than mere Mystics
*Psi-Mystics may opt to choose physical psionic powers instead of healing, normal Mystics can't choose physical
*Psi-Mystics are resistant to possession and drugs or portions (even mundane) intended to mind-control, normal Mystics are not

[eliakon]

The Mystic OCC from Rifts (RMBp85) and Mystic from Nightbane (NMBp117) are not the same class as each other, much less the same as the Psi-Mystic in PF2ndPg159.

Very similar, sure, but if you take a close look there are key differences:
*Rifts has the Sense Supernatural Evil and Opening Self to the Supernatural powers (Nightbane merely has the lesser 'sense evil' sensitive power)
*Rifts Mystics are better dancers, know instruments, can ride horses and survive in the wilderness, NB merely has better lore
*NB mystics are initially more resistant to psionics, but RMB mystics are more resistant in the long-run
*Rifts Mystics are easier to scare, but can learn a super psionic power (Nightbane Mystics were reprinted in TTGD and didn't have this added in, even though a note was made amending the ability for Guardians and Natural Psychics to get them)
*Psi-Mystics all have mind-block, some Mystics do not
*Psi-Mystics are master psychics, mere Mystics are only major
*Psi-Mystics have way more ISP than mere Mystics
*Psi-Mystics may opt to choose physical psionic powers instead of healing, normal Mystics can't choose physical
*Psi-Mystics are resistant to possession and drugs or portions (even mundane) intended to mind-control, normal Mystics are not

Cool, so take Mystic Class, but remove all the Psi. Poof Catyr Mystic.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Mystic OCC from Rifts (RMBp85) and Mystic from Nightbane (NMBp117) are not the same class as each other, much less the same as the Psi-Mystic in PF2ndPg159.

Very similar, sure, but if you take a close look there are key differences:
*Rifts has the Sense Supernatural Evil and Opening Self to the Supernatural powers (Nightbane merely has the lesser 'sense evil' sensitive power)
*Rifts Mystics are better dancers, know instruments, can ride horses and survive in the wilderness, NB merely has better lore
*NB mystics are initially more resistant to psionics, but RMB mystics are more resistant in the long-run
*Rifts Mystics are easier to scare, but can learn a super psionic power (Nightbane Mystics were reprinted in TTGD and didn't have this added in, even though a note was made amending the ability for Guardians and Natural Psychics to get them)
*Psi-Mystics all have mind-block, some Mystics do not
*Psi-Mystics are master psychics, mere Mystics are only major
*Psi-Mystics have way more ISP than mere Mystics
*Psi-Mystics may opt to choose physical psionic powers instead of healing, normal Mystics can't choose physical
*Psi-Mystics are resistant to possession and drugs or portions (even mundane) intended to mind-control, normal Mystics are not

Cool, so take Mystic Class, but remove all the Psi. Poof Catyr Mystic.

Isn't that the fan made class option of what I said earlier Eli?
But like the NB Mystic it would be an RCC.
--------
Sense Evil Psi power only senses SN Evil so when I note it down in a char it's Sense (SN) Evil.

[eliakon]

The Mystic OCC from Rifts (RMBp85) and Mystic from Nightbane (NMBp117) are not the same class as each other, much less the same as the Psi-Mystic in PF2ndPg159.

Very similar, sure, but if you take a close look there are key differences:
*Rifts has the Sense Supernatural Evil and Opening Self to the Supernatural powers (Nightbane merely has the lesser 'sense evil' sensitive power)
*Rifts Mystics are better dancers, know instruments, can ride horses and survive in the wilderness, NB merely has better lore
*NB mystics are initially more resistant to psionics, but RMB mystics are more resistant in the long-run
*Rifts Mystics are easier to scare, but can learn a super psionic power (Nightbane Mystics were reprinted in TTGD and didn't have this added in, even though a note was made amending the ability for Guardians and Natural Psychics to get them)
*Psi-Mystics all have mind-block, some Mystics do not
*Psi-Mystics are master psychics, mere Mystics are only major
*Psi-Mystics have way more ISP than mere Mystics
*Psi-Mystics may opt to choose physical psionic powers instead of healing, normal Mystics can't choose physical
*Psi-Mystics are resistant to possession and drugs or portions (even mundane) intended to mind-control, normal Mystics are not

Cool, so take Mystic Class, but remove all the Psi. Poof Catyr Mystic.

Isn't that the core of what I said Eli?
But like the NB Mystic it would be an RCC.

Why would it be an RCC?
Catyr is a Race, Mystic is an OCC.....

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Mystic OCC from Rifts (RMBp85) and Mystic from Nightbane (NMBp117) are not the same class as each other, much less the same as the Psi-Mystic in PF2ndPg159.

Very similar, sure, but if you take a close look there are key differences:
*Rifts has the Sense Supernatural Evil and Opening Self to the Supernatural powers (Nightbane merely has the lesser 'sense evil' sensitive power)
*Rifts Mystics are better dancers, know instruments, can ride horses and survive in the wilderness, NB merely has better lore
*NB mystics are initially more resistant to psionics, but RMB mystics are more resistant in the long-run
*Rifts Mystics are easier to scare, but can learn a super psionic power (Nightbane Mystics were reprinted in TTGD and didn't have this added in, even though a note was made amending the ability for Guardians and Natural Psychics to get them)
*Psi-Mystics all have mind-block, some Mystics do not
*Psi-Mystics are master psychics, mere Mystics are only major
*Psi-Mystics have way more ISP than mere Mystics
*Psi-Mystics may opt to choose physical psionic powers instead of healing, normal Mystics can't choose physical
*Psi-Mystics are resistant to possession and drugs or portions (even mundane) intended to mind-control, normal Mystics are not

Cool, so take Mystic Class, but remove all the Psi. Poof Catyr Mystic.

Isn't that the core of what I said Eli?
But like the NB Mystic it would be an RCC.

Why would it be an RCC?
Catyr is a Race, Mystic is an OCC.....

Catyr as a Race can't have psionics.
Mystic is a Psionic Class. (Half the Class's $%^&$%^& powers are psionics.)

So for the very same reasons that NB have a Mystic RCC of their own instead of just taking the "normal" mystic class. Which has been pointed out before in this topic.

[eliakon]

The Mystic OCC from Rifts (RMBp85) and Mystic from Nightbane (NMBp117) are not the same class as each other, much less the same as the Psi-Mystic in PF2ndPg159.

Very similar, sure, but if you take a close look there are key differences:
*Rifts has the Sense Supernatural Evil and Opening Self to the Supernatural powers (Nightbane merely has the lesser 'sense evil' sensitive power)
*Rifts Mystics are better dancers, know instruments, can ride horses and survive in the wilderness, NB merely has better lore
*NB mystics are initially more resistant to psionics, but RMB mystics are more resistant in the long-run
*Rifts Mystics are easier to scare, but can learn a super psionic power (Nightbane Mystics were reprinted in TTGD and didn't have this added in, even though a note was made amending the ability for Guardians and Natural Psychics to get them)
*Psi-Mystics all have mind-block, some Mystics do not
*Psi-Mystics are master psychics, mere Mystics are only major
*Psi-Mystics have way more ISP than mere Mystics
*Psi-Mystics may opt to choose physical psionic powers instead of healing, normal Mystics can't choose physical
*Psi-Mystics are resistant to possession and drugs or portions (even mundane) intended to mind-control, normal Mystics are not

Cool, so take Mystic Class, but remove all the Psi. Poof Catyr Mystic.

Isn't that the core of what I said Eli?
But like the NB Mystic it would be an RCC.

Why would it be an RCC?
Catyr is a Race, Mystic is an OCC.....

Catyr as a Race can't have psionics.
Mystic is a Psionic Class. (Half the Class's $%^&$%^& powers are psionics.)

So for the very same reasons that NB have a Mystic RCC of their own instead of just taking the "normal" mystic class. Which has been pointed out before in this topic.

A Catyr Operator wouldn't be an RCC. it would be an Operator with no psionics
Taking an OCC to but removing some stuff (with out ADDING anything, like the NB one adds Talents) is still just the OCC.
And for the record, in RUE there isn't such a thing as 'a psionic class' the presence of such a distinction in other games does not mean that it exists in Rifts.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The psionics in the operator Class are not class wide part of the class and are not HALF the abilities of the class. Thus the Operator class is a bad example to be using.

I said 'Psionic Class' as a 'descriptor' not as a 'Label'. Trying to avoid the stupid arguments over PCC's.

For the <descriptive adverb> Record: RUE officially states that there are PCC's, it is just they put an O in there for Newbs.(POCC's or to say "Psychic Occupational Char Classes")

Yes, this has been discussed before. No, there is no need to argue there is officially is no PCC's, cause what is official is that PCC's are, they're just not labeled such. Much like how they were Pre -RUE rifts. Only they used the Label RCC instead.

Get over it, move on.

[eliakon]

The psionics in the operator Class are not class wide part of the class and are not HALF the abilities of the class. Thus the Operator class is a bad example to be using.

I said 'Psionic Class' as a 'descriptor' not as a 'Label'. Trying to avoid the stupid arguments over PCC's.

For the <descriptive adverb> Record: RUE officially states that there are PCC's, for most of the ones in RUE, it is just they put an O in there for Newbs.(POCC's or to say "Psychic Occupational Char Classes")

Yes, this has been discussed before. No, there is no need to argue there is officially is no PCC's, cause what is official is that PCC's are, they're just not labeled such. Much like how they were Pre -RUE rifts. Only they used the Label RCC instead.

Get over it, move on.

A Nightbane Mystic though is an eqully bad example
Its not a Mystic that drops its Psi. Its a totally different class, on a unique group of beings that ONLY have RCCs apparently.

That said a Catyr the way I see it a race taking a class that has parts they can't get is fine....they just don't get anything that is incompatible with their race. I don't see a reason to make that class into an RCC just for them. If you feel different go ahead and do it your way in your games.

And while I can appreciate your stance on PCCs, and do not wish to fight that out here. There is no need to be rude, and 'Get over it, move on' is most defiantly rude, condescending and certainly uncalled for.

[Tor]

PCCs are officially short for Psionic OCC, which I established in a PF argument In RMB, were called RCCs due to racial elements of psionic prereqs (although by that logic I didn't get why Cyberknights/Technowizards/Mystics weren't) and in RUE they were OCCs in psionic category...

I'm not entirely sure that selecting these OCCs wouldn't imbue psionic powers though. That or... any race without psionics CAN take a psionic class, they just don't get the powers.

Or, you could possibly change to a psionic class but you would not get the powers, just the magic. Examples of this would be some of the Techno-Wizards in Pantheons who lack the default psionics TWs have, but have other psionics (like Hephaestus)

[drewkitty ~..~]

*shorts*

The NB's, as a "race" is just about the perfect example for this because it can't have psionics but have their own Mystic class. Thus showing Yup, it can be done even if mod'ed.

Which is Why I said to use the NB Mystic RCC as a model to make the Catyar Mystic RCC. No, it will not be the same as the NB Mystic RCC because they are not the same race. But it will b for the most part because both drop the psionics portion of the Mystic class. I got that far in my 1st post.

Why would it have to a new class?......Because it is not the old class., Because it is too much mod'ed to be the same as the old class. etc...etc...
---------
Maybe I'm still a bit prickly from all the people that keep spouting that nonsense that there are no PCC's in Rifts when RUE states they are still there even if the (stupid) Style Filter is suppose to make things easier for newbs by labeling them as Psionic OCCs.

So..... so what if I drop the O from POCC, and say what they are.
Yep still a bit prickly.*shrugs*
---------
@Tor
PCC stands for Psychic Character Class, taken from the first letter of the words of the phrase it stands for.
POCC is the label the RUE style filter gives to PCC's in Post-RUE Rifts.
Pre-RUE they were mislabeled as RCCs due to, as far as I can figure, the Style Filter used then was from the CS POV. In which anybody then normal humans were seen as non-humans by the CS athorities.
This made the PCC's and real RCCs hard to figure out which from which sometimes. It did not help that they also called races RCC's too.

All this STUPID arguing could of been avoided if PB had just called the classes by the correct terms/labels for the classes in the 1st place.

[Tor]

Dropping the O is fine so long as we remember it's still there, that they're psychic occupations

POCC is not a RUE-style filter, it predates RUE, appearing in PF2nd at least. Keep in mind also that the Mind Mage in PRPG was an OCC

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is no Job in a PCC. So not including an O is just sensible.


All the PCC's in PF2 are labeled correctly as PCC's.
In PFRPG 1st ed all the classes were called OCCs because they were just starting out. This was before PB started, correctly, to invent the more correct labels for their classes. There were no POCC then, in PF1, ether.

The POCC is an artifact of the stupidness the RUE style filter brought with it.

[eliakon]

There is no Job in a PCC. So not including an O is just sensible.


All the PCC's in PF2 are labeled correctly as PCC's.
In PFRPG 1st ed all the classes were called OCCs because they were just starting out. This was before PB started, correctly, to invent the more correct labels for their classes. There were no POCC then, in PF1, ether.

The POCC is an artifact of the stupidness the RUE style filter brought with it.

Cool story.
*looks at his RUE book* hey look Mystic is an O.C.C. Awesome. Gives Catyr that O.C.C. after removing anything that is incompatible....sort of like he would remove 'paired weapon' from an OCC taken by a person with one arm.

Not that I really want to fight out the whole "Do P.C.C.'s exist in RUE" thing. You have your opinion and are unlikely to change it. I have my opinion that *I* am unlikely to change. Both have support from Canon Books. as you said 'deal with it and move on'

[drewkitty ~..~]

In PFRPG 1st ed all the classes were called OCCs because they were just starting out. This was before PB started, correctly, to invent the more correct labels for their classes.

Cool story.

Yup. When you have the 1st & 2nd editions & reading other relevant posts for 13 years it is pretty much obvious this is what happened. *nods*

Not that I really want to fight out the whole "Do P.C.C.'s exist in RUE" thing. You have your opinion and are unlikely to change it. I have my opinion that *I* am unlikely to change. Both have support from Canon Books. as you said 'deal with it and move on'

Ah...hummm that was aimed at Tor.... who seams to like to put his two russian cents into everything.

[Tor]

There is no Job in a PCC. So not including an O is just sensible.

Sure there is. Many PCCs have far more clear-cut occupations than guys like Vagabonds do (what's their job, to wander and eyeball people and eat candy?)

All the PCC's in PF2 are labeled correctly as PCC's.

Yes, and the book made clear in the psychic section that this is short for 'psychic OCCs'. It's hidden and should be more prominently featured, but it's there.

The POCC is an artifact of the stupidness the RUE style filter brought with it.

Nope, it was in PF2, RUE didn't even use the POCC term, it dropped the P rather than the O.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is no Job in a PCC. So not including an O is just sensible.

Sure there is. Many PCCs have far more clear-cut occupations than guys like Vagabonds do (what's their job, to wander and eyeball people and eat candy?)

All the PCC's in PF2 are labeled correctly as PCC's.

Yes, and the book made clear in the psychic section that this is short for 'psychic OCCs'. It's hidden and should be more prominently featured, but it's there.

The POCC is an artifact of the stupidness the RUE style filter brought with it.

Nope, it was in PF2, RUE didn't even use the POCC term, it dropped the P rather than the O.

Having the PF2 MB 1st printing in front of me I can say that No Where in the Psionic section does it say that PCCs are POCC's. The psychic classes are correctly labeled as PCC's. Having made that clear, I would appreciate you stop spreading non-truths.

Besides, it is the psion's nature that leads them to a 'way of life'. And way's of life are not jobs. Not everyone defines themselves by the fallacy that one's Job Defines you. HUmp, a job is the least thing that defines a person.

[Svartalf]

Making a "Catyr mystic" OCC by just bypassing all psi powers is silly... the psi abilities define a mystic just as puch as the intuitive grasp of magic.
Also, comparing with the NB mystic, I notice the NightBanes who become mystics gain free powers instead of the psionics, whereas no similar compensation has been proposed for the Catyr, who would be better inspired to take up a psi less magic OCC like LLW, period.

[eliakon]

Making a "Catyr mystic" OCC by just bypassing all psi powers is silly... the psi abilities define a mystic just as puch as the intuitive grasp of magic.
Also, comparing with the NB mystic, I notice the NightBanes who become mystics gain free powers instead of the psionics, whereas no similar compensation has been proposed for the Catyr, who would be better inspired to take up a psi less magic OCC like LLW, period.

Since Catyr cant normally take up ANY magic class, but have a singular exception for Mystic....sure why not. Your 'free powers' are 'you can take up a class that has magic, even though your race normally doesn't study magic'

[Svartalf]

Actually, they are not prohibited from practicing magic, that is just quite rare... and the posibility of learning magic as a LLW IS mentioned.
I still regard the mention of mystic as a mistake.

[Tor]

Having the PF2 MB 1st printing in front of me I can say that No Where in the Psionic section does it say that PCCs are POCC's. The psychic classes are correctly labeled as PCC's. Having made that clear, I would appreciate you stop spreading non-truths.

Answered this at viewtopic.php?f=39&t=142954&p=2777678#p2777678

Kev could've stated it plainer, but it's repeatedly buried in there.

comparing with the NB mystic, I notice the NightBanes who become mystics gain free powers instead of the psionics, whereas no similar compensation has been proposed for the Catyr

The free powers NBmystics get as they level (page 119) are equal in number to the ones normal non-magical Nightbane get on page 106. There's only a subtle difference in when they get them (2nd is 1 level earlier, 1st/3rd are same, 4th is 1 level later, 5th is 3 levels later). So it's more a matter of 'this doesn't take away your free powers like being a Sorcerer does' than 'here's something for the psionics we stole'.

Unless of course one took the interpretation that the free talents NB sorcs/mystics are mentioned as getting STACK with the free ones all NB get. I can't find any text to disqualify that idea, though it's not the impression I got of Carella's intentions. Namely from the NBsorc flavour text of them being less effective at either specialty, learning magic interfering with Talent development.

[Svartalf]

I don't think there's a stacking, I'd just forgotten about the normal NBs getting free powers as they level up.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I don't think there's a stacking, I'd just forgotten about the normal NBs getting free powers as they level up.

the only Nightbane class that does not get additional 'free' talents as the char levels up is the NB mage class.

[drewkitty ~..~]

After thinking about it,

I think any sort of Catyr Mystic should be something like a Major Psychic and just have their "Knowing" of spells and PPE be added on top of the OCC they have. Much the way the Goblin cobbler stuff is just added on top of the OCC the goblin char has.

All of this because the char 'just knows' their spells without any study. Thus making it a class at all seams too much of a deal since it is not something learned.

[Svartalf]

This, sir, is a worthy proposal

[Giant2005]

Whenever I come across a race that has no psionic potential but can be a Mystic, I treat them the same as the Dewtani from DBoNA in that they have the class with no psychic powers but get an extra spell per level.

[eliakon]

Whenever I come across a race that has no psionic potential but can be a Mystic, I treat them the same as the Dewtani from DBoNA in that they have the class with no psychic powers but get an extra spell per level.

That's a good solution. Just make the Dewtani's 'fix' universal. Nice, neat, simple, and as close to canon as you can probably get...

[Svartalf]

I think that slapping the spellcasting onto another OCC is better than enhanced spellcasting, this solution destroys the specificity of the Dewtani.

[eliakon]

I think that slapping the spellcasting onto another OCC is better than enhanced spellcasting, this solution destroys the specificity of the Dewtani.

But then your making a new 'mega class', and what is the XP price of getting all the powers/skills/etc of one class PLUS spell casting?

[Svartalf]

Yeah, even simpler and more logical to deem that the mention of 'mystic' was a plain mystake and forbid catyr from taking a class they are obviously not able to pursue.

[Tor]

Why deem that the Mystic option is a mistake? 'No Psionics' could be the mistake. 'None' could refer only to random psionics and not OCC-learned class-based psionics.

[Svartalf]

Because the book was written by CJ Carella who might just have forgotten that 'mystic' is a PCC and not a generic term for a magic using OCC... Catyr+mystic makes no sense and trying to make it happen does not bring any satisfactory solutions. and 'no psionics' is no psionics, unless I get an errata specifying otherwise, though, in Rifts, races exhibiting no random psionics generally are denied access to PCCs

[Tor]

Mystic was not a PCC at the time. It was still an OCC when CJ included it in Nightbane, following the example set in RMB. First I recall references to that would be the similar (yet different) "Psi-Mystic" in PF2nd, and RUE referring to them as PCCs.

[Svartalf]

It's a class with mandatory psionics.

[Tor]

Mandatory unless you're a Nightbane

Since there's really no advantage to playing a psionicless Mystic (cept spells per level if you reeeeally don't want to buy them, could save money I guess) allowing them to be NB mystics minus the talents is probz pretty balanced.

[Svartalf]

That's a different game to start with... the only canon Rifts race without psi ability that have official access to that class are the Dewtani, and the treatment they have is an obvious exception rather than a general rule.

[eliakon]

That's a different game to start with... the only canon Rifts race without psi ability that have official access to that class are the Dewtani, and the treatment they have is an obvious exception rather than a general rule.

Well the Dewtani and the Catyr which is why I suggested using the Dewtani option. They are both psi-less racess that both have Mystic as an official option.....this means that ANY solution is going to have to be a house rule. The options that I can see are

1) make up something of the Catyr
2) decide that the Catyr was a mistake, and make up something else
3) use the Dewtani as a precedent instead of a unique aberration.
4) Fnord?

[drewkitty ~..~]

It's a class with mandatory psionics.

If you are ignoring everything other then the class text and class details, which would mean ignoring every mention of OCC,PCC, RCC, and Variant labels that are there for style reasons, then you would find that there are many more PCC's in the Rifts game-books then what the "Everything is an OCC" people would lead everyone to believe.

That's a different game to start with... the only canon Rifts race without psi ability that have official access to that class are the Dewtani, and the treatment they have is an obvious exception rather than a general rule.

*nods* NB is a different setting with it's own canon. But the NB Mystic was the only "mystc" class I could think of that didn't have a Psionics compoent. Which is why I used it as an example for my 1st suggestion of creating a Catyr Mystic RCC that would be at it's core the Mystic PCC w/o the Psionics like the NB Mystic RCC.

I do like the having it as just an Add On more because the parts of a mystic class that need training are the psionic parts. The magic parts are something the char just 'knows'.


So What I see the argument here is over is how to make a Fan Made mystic class for Catyr to use.

[eliakon]

So What I see the argument here is over is how to make a Fan Made mystic class for Catyr to use.

Pretty much. As written we get an option that breaks the rules, one way or another. So the question becomes....what set of House Rules to use to make it work?