Why Are There No Good Alien Intelligences?

Hotrod · Unread post by **Hotrod** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:55 pm

Why is Splynncryth the least evil intelligence out there?

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:03 pm

Hey, Splynny is a cool guy. Don't lump him in with all those ditch-digger intelligences (Vampire "Gods").

And kill all Xenos in His name.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:07 pm

Because it is easier to destroy than to create...and a lot more fun, too.
And because we're looking at apex predators of the megaverse from the perspective of the lemmings and rabbits.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:11 pm

Well, I see your point, taal, but I'm not sure about it. I mean, there are some Gods that are certainly of good alignment after all. Why couldn't there be good Intelligences? They don't have to be apex predators, they have personality and learn from experience on a sentient level (or beyond). Does that automatically make them on a primal level or so detatched they lack what we consider morality?

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:40 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:Well, I see your point, taal, but I'm not sure about it. I mean, there are some Gods that are certainly of good alignment after all. Why couldn't there be good Intelligences? They don't have to be apex predators, they have personality and learn from experience on a sentient level (or beyond). Does that automatically make them on a primal level or so detatched they lack what we consider morality?

The predators are just a lot more visible than the cooperative do-gooders.
Now admittedly, increasingly in our own Real World we're discovering that altruism and cooperative behavior are more powerful survival traits than we might suspect, which should encourage a greater number of Good AIs to be around, especially since they've had time to build powerful networks, but personally I think the self-centered predators just blew through them and ate most of the Good AIs.
There's also the Rule of Dramatic Tension in RPGing. It's easier to get the players going if they're facing an overwhelming evil menace or implacable Force That Doesn't Care, then going into combat knowing you can appeal to a greater number of Divine Big Guns to save your bacon. Having your Priest of Light able to call "Heavy SMITING!" on every opponent you run into, kinda takes the suspense out of adventuring.
"Karl....it was just a mugger. I could have handled him!"

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:44 pm

No joke, the will to dominate is what makes a race succeed. And "good" can often be seen as a survival trait, yes, we're still animals, but from the perspective of entertainment like movies, TV and even RPGs sentient beings are romanticized into being more than just advanced animals. So i suppose i expect more than just evil from my henticle deities.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:48 pm

The Great Old Ones are the epitome of Evil, and Alien Intelligences are just lesser Old Ones.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:49 pm

Yeah...i suppose that is true...

blah. you're no fun.

glitterboy2098 · Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:52 pm

if your going to write a book about monsters, which is more interesting? the big mass of eyes and tentacles out to steal your soul, eat your body, and annex your world? or the one that dresses up as a magician to perform at kids birthday parties and donates lots of money to orphan's funds?

according to the Al.I. RCC, they can be any alignment. we just see the evil ones.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:56 pm

Are the kids he performs for the orphaned children of his victims, who he wishes to see grow so he can kill them too and perform for their children?

Dude's a jerk and a monster now. :bandit:

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:59 pm

But it could be worse, it could use a figment to possess a bunch of clowns... :clown:

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:04 pm

Clowns don't call it kidnapping, it's just surprise adoption.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:06 pm

But is a clown that is possessed still a member of the <Guild of Kleintro?

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:10 pm

There's a difference?

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:12 pm

Svartalf wrote:But it could be worse, it could use a figment to possess a bunch of clowns...

I've kinda suspected this all along....

Actually clowns are very much like Alien Intelligences...you suspect there might be some good ones out there, but all you've encountered in your life are the ones that make you want to run for your life.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:15 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:There's a difference?

I hear that it's one guild even an AI doesn't want for a foe.

Hell knight · Unread post by **Hell knight** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:17 pm

Actually the least evil is Billy Bob Blyncress (Rifter #9 1/2) , he prefers to be called bob .

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:25 pm

Hell knight wrote:Actually the least evil is Billy Bob Blyncress (Rifter #9 1/2) , he prefers to be called bob .

Negligent or Incompetent Evil...when the person doesn't notice how badly they're screwing you up through their actions.
"DON"T TOUCH THA-"

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:31 pm

Palladium has a very noticeable lack of good supernatural creatures in general.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:02 pm

Glistam wrote:Palladium has a very noticeable lack of good supernatural creatures in general.

I blame it on the idea that Pandora's Box makes a better story if Hope is a wimpy little overlooked thing, instead of bursting out of that box looking like it was hopped up on steroids, armed more heavily than an armored division, and ready to kick ass and take names, even if its opponents are gods.

Rimmerdal · Unread post by **Rimmerdal** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:13 pm

Lord Helmet, theory says any being of immortal nature is not likely good. Immortality and alien powers may corrupt. Add to that fact good people would eventually become tired of the battle vs evil and an alien/supernatural intelligence is no different.

That said I prefer more open alignment AI or SNI (Super natural Intelligence)

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:08 pm

J.L. Duncan wrote:They've ascended their mortal coils and moved onto the next dimension.

Note left in temple: "Nobody helped US when we were younger. Uplift yourselves!"

drewkitty ~..~ · Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:18 pm

Takes the last option as an "Other" option. Two reasons, one from a story telling POV and one a in game POV.

Cause good A.I.'s do not make a good antagonist for a good story.

Cause they have not eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good an evil so do not the understanding between the two. Thus are functionally evil.

Akashic Soldier · Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:41 pm

There are good alien intelligences. In fact, if I recall correctly there is a canonical good-aligned Splugorth mentioned in one of the Phaseworld books. Plus, check their alignment, its "any". Splynncryth is just a minority (as would be the "good" Splugorth). Why? For the Splugorth I imagine its cultural. They are supernatural predators by nature that are vastly superior to "lesser races" so it is only natural they'd place themselves above their subordinates. Which of course is the first step down a dangerous ethical path where perspective is concerned. "They're just Blind Warrior Women, entirely expendable in the grand scheme of things" becomes "These humans could upset my plans and cause no end of grief for myself or my minions, easier to just wipe them all out." Which later becomes "Since I was wiping them out anyway, I might as well sell them into slavery and turn a profit as well" and on and on until they have gradually become the monsters we know them as today.

However, I believe that the real answer is that because most alien intelligences are supernatural predators without concern or respect for lesser entities as anything but puppets, pawns or food. This is very likely because the vast majority of the Old Ones (the entities that created them!) were evil.

Why were most of the Old One's evil?

Well, each has their own reason but essentially it comes down to the fact that Palladium's mortality system (like its P.B. attribute) is based on a "human" perspective because its written for us to relate too. So anything that views other sentient lifeforms as playthings for their amusement or tools is considered an evil being (and rightfully so in my opinion).

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:21 pm

I like that you pointed out the relatability of the rules to humans. It's something I've pointed out often when people wonder why races get described as personable, but only have an MA of 2d6.

Thinyser · Unread post by **Thinyser** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:02 pm

Entropy. The universe is always in a state that is moving ever farther towards chaos. The AI are a personification of this tendency.

Oh and there are a few good ones. the ratio is stated as 1000:1 Evil to good.

Hotrod · Unread post by **Hotrod** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:22 pm

I find it interesting that CB1 says that Alien Intelligences can be of any alignment, but then goes on to say things like:

IQ is usually genius level; the monster is cunning, deceptive, and treacherous.
Enemies: Humans and the forces of good. Often share animosity toward other intelligences.
Allies: May conspire with other forces of evil
Notes: The physical form of these horrendous creatures is never humanoid.

The context seems to contradict the "any". Anyway, as the original post stated, I have yet to see a single canon alien intelligence with an alignment above anarchist.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:18 pm

Well Anu in pantheons is 'sort of an AI', as is Thoth. So if we take two 'half AI's' does it count for one full AI.
Actually if you count Anu it helps put things in perspective. If there is 1 good one, and ~100 evil ones in the books, that's 1% of the AIs being good. And evil villains make much better story devices than saintly good guys. This is why most of the places in the books are war zones, or corrupt, or fanatics, or something else 'iffy'. Utopia's are boring from a gaming point of view.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:23 pm

Because everybody is convinced an under powered good guy is able to triumph on the face of adversity. I mean I was nearly lynched for creating a GOOD guy stronger than most Gods. PowerSurge the Immortal. All I got was critism for being able to bang up with damn near anything.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:41 pm

say652 wrote:Because everybody is convinced an under powered good guy is able to triumph on the face of adversity. I mean I was nearly lynched for creating a GOOD guy stronger than most Gods. PowerSurge the Immortal. All I got was critism for being able to bang up with damn near anything.

ANYTHING that has the words 'stronger than most Gods' sounds disruptive to a universe where said gods are supposed to be at/near the top of the food chain....just sayin'

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:48 pm

Lol. Hence why their are NO good supernatural intelligences.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:50 pm

eliakon wrote:
say652 wrote:Because everybody is convinced an under powered good guy is able to triumph on the face of adversity. I mean I was nearly lynched for creating a GOOD guy stronger than most Gods. PowerSurge the Immortal. All I got was critism for being able to bang up with damn near anything.

ANYTHING that has the words 'stronger than most Gods' sounds disruptive to a universe where said gods are supposed to be at/near the top of the food chain....just sayin'

Kinda proved the point I was trying to make.

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:04 am

I prefer to look at the alignment issue from the perspective of the Alien Intelligence. Think about how they view existence. Entire worlds are their playground, molded like so much clay. Mortals are at best useful or entertaining pets, and at worst annoying vermin and pests.

That gives the perspective of the Alpha Predator. Look at humans and termites, rats, and humanity's relentless expansion and domination of his surrounding world. It's pretty much the same thing writ on a larger scale.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:40 am

Get'er done, then. Always interested to read stuff like that.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:04 am

Does the Cosmic Forge count as an AI?

--flatline

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:13 am

The Forge counts as a full fledged Deity, if not a degree beyond that... at least that's MHO

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:32 am

Svartalf wrote:The Forge counts as a full fledged Deity, if not a degree beyond that... at least that's MHO

I thought that AIs were a step above dieties. Aren't the Old Ones considered AIs?

--flatline

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:41 am

Mmmh, they are a step beyond your garden variety AI... As I understand that, AIs are lesser versions of the Old Ones, and below deity level. As a creating power, I'd put the Forge even beyond Old Ones, then again, I use it as a plot device, not just as an empowerer of Knights and the goal of a war causing race into mystery.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:50 pm

Well, some deities are far below Intelligences...some Intelligences are less powerful than deities. Though the average seems to be that AI > Gods, with Old Ones > AI

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:07 pm

I'll trust you, I must admit that I've never tried gaming a duel between an AI and a God, whether in PFRPG or in Rifts.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:42 pm

I have it takes hours for one battle. So much sdc/hp and so little damage actually being done.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:37 pm

Aside from Anu/Thoth...

Arguably forces like the Cosmic Forge and 'The Light' are probably AIs, just ones we don't know much of.

The force that empowers Skippy in Splynn probably is also.

I view Cormal as being AI-ish and if Wormwood has such sentience slumbering then...

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:12 pm

Perhaps there are lots of good AIs, but they keep a low profile because they don't want to deal with people asking for favors.

--flatline

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:35 pm

Perhaps they are masquerading as gods, could the god that priest in Demonbusters (Rifts Mercs) prays to possibly be a good AI?

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:05 pm

I thought Alien Intelligences couldn't change their shape willingly. I know the Great Old One was transformed into Thoth and all that, but they say he "fell victim" to his own circle of transformation or whatever it was. Honestly, it was probably trying to figure out how to turn itself into a real cutie so it could get a date.

It's lonely at the top.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:49 am

Depends on the AI, some can roll transformation abilities, others don't end up with them. For those lacking it as a natural ability, they may possess metamorphosis magic spells though, to do it in a more limited degree.

Xy's circle was tampered with by his 2 rivals (I forget the specific names) among the GOO. I think perhaps he was trying to surpass AI form. Maybe he was aiming to become Dark/Forge/Light -tier or Kormal/Wormwood-tier in power? Assuming those 5 surpass the GOO. Not entirely sure.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:44 am

Hotrod wrote:Why is Splynncryth the least evil intelligence out there?

Because I get hungry. :fl:

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:56 am

Alternative explanation: because Cihuacoatl

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:36 am

wyrmraker wrote:I prefer to look at the alignment issue from the perspective of the Alien Intelligence. Think about how they view existence. Entire worlds are their playground, molded like so much clay. Mortals are at best useful or entertaining pets, and at worst annoying vermin and pests.

That gives the perspective of the Alpha Predator. Look at humans and termites, rats, and humanity's relentless expansion and domination of his surrounding world. It's pretty much the same thing writ on a larger scale.

An addendum:
Not only are they some of the most powerful individual creatures around, but they are more powerful than the 'Gods' in that they don't require worshippers for their power base.

Put this all together, and they are an apex predator that is truly superior. Who is to say that they are evil, really? People don't call you evil for calling an exterminator when your house is plagued with termites. Rat Catchers in the Renaissance weren't called evil. Evil, in pretty much every case, is really a matter of perspective. And why shouldn't they be 'superior'? They have no society, as such. They have little to no need to band together against a more powerful enemy. They would have had no need for morals and ethics to evolve. They have no weaknesses that would drive a communal need for survival. I would say that there probably would have been a code of conduct between the Old Ones, but it probably operated more like a handshake agreement between equals.

So as for pretty much all of them being evil, if they're that superior, why bother being 'nice' to what are literally lesser life forms?

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:47 pm

A lot of AIs could be whupped by a number of gods, requiring worshippers is one weakness, sure, but it's also a major source of strength, consider the PPE regen rates they get out of it.

Why are there no good alien intelligences?