Why Are There No Good Alien Intelligences?

[say652]

Maybe the good ones eventually were killed by the evil ones. Imo the good ones function in utopian dimensions. Where evil fears to tread.

[Tor]

Good ones are more apt to put themselves at risk to help others, and potentially die as a result. I think one major reason, besides inherent predisposition, for the predominance of evil AIs, is they are the ones who look out for their own wellbeing as the central priority.

[eliakon]

I think a HUGE part of this is a statistical anomaly. Look at the beings that are described in the books. The majority of them are villains, not because there are more villains in the world than any other group, but because villains make good opponents for games. The nations that are evil or corrupt are lovingly described in great detail, while the peaceful and tranquil places are lucky to get a couple paragraphs. We have multi-page descriptions of the gods of evil, but pure good? Good is boring, it doesn't drive adventure and conflict.....so it doesn't get written up. I doubt that the 2-3% of written up AI's being good is much different than the % of NPC, or Nations, or Races, or Classes that are good.

[Hotrod]

As a counterpoint, I offer up Northern Gun 1, in which the vast majority of NPCs are of good or unprincipled alignments. Apparently, the most moral society in the world is also its most famous arms dealer. How's that for turning a stereotype on its head?

[Tor]

Most moral society in the world... aren't they still allied with the CS?

[taalismn]

As a counterpoint, I offer up Northern Gun 1, in which the vast majority of NPCs are of good or unprincipled alignments. Apparently, the most moral society in the world is also its most famous arms dealer. How's that for turning a stereotype on its head?

"Guns don't kill people..."

I have the same problems balancing things with my own Paladin Steel...they're all good, righteous, and tolerant, but just happen to be a MASSIVE arms producer and distributor...and "Good Equipment for Good People at Good Prices" may sound like a decent corporate motto, but realistically, 'good prices' would translate into virtually every hoodlum in the street packing a weapon made by the company.
Similarly, a Good AI handing out goodies like Santa Claus may find its largesse backfiring, with blackmarketeers reselling the goodies to the bad guys, or perverting the distribution network so that the people who REALLY need the stuff, but aren't immediately under the immediately the benign eye of the Alien Intelligence, are forced to buy the necessary goods at extortion prices from the middlemen.

[kaid]

Most moral society in the world... aren't they still allied with the CS?

Well when you are a nation that if you call up all your merc forces and reserves have at its high point been able to field an army of 115k people and your nearest neighbors to both your north and your south have a military in the millions it is a pretty sane decision on their part.

They do not persecute DBees and although they have to put on a show to the CS about them still sells to them and has sizable DBee populations in the smaller towns/cities. As for magic there are almost no ley lines in the northern gun and most don't see much reason to take up magic when their tech is just as good so it was no real problem for them to "ban" magic because few in the U.P were using magic to begin with. Also while they stopped direct business with places like lazlo and new lazlo they also opened new back door channels to keep at least the majority of that shipment of goods open.

The NG is in no position at least currently to anger the CS and after seeing what the CS did to new kenora the NG is treading very carefully.

While it may seem odd to a weapons dealer/merc hub to be fairly moral if you think about the NG they are one of the main reasons many independent kingdoms/towns exist at all. Their weapons/armor/vehicles are what the majority of non CS cities/towns in north america use to defend their existence. The clothing/electronics/machines/tools/medicine/bionics/cyberware/building materials they make are what allows those towns to grow into cities and cities potentially into states. The NG is overall a major force for stability and civilization in north america so that their populace feels proud about this and feel like they are doing good things should not be surprising.

[taalismn]

Most moral society in the world... aren't they still allied with the CS?

The NG is in no position at least currently to anger the CS and after seeing what the CS did to new kenora the NG is treading very carefully.

While it may seem odd to a weapons dealer/merc hub to be fairly moral if you think about the NG they are one of the main reasons many independent kingdoms/towns exist at all. Their weapons/armor/vehicles are what the majority of non CS cities/towns in north america use to defend their existence. The clothing/electronics/machines/tools/medicine/bionics/cyberware/building materials they make are what allows those towns to grow into cities and cities potentially into states. The NG is overall a major force for stability and civilization in north america so that their populace feels proud about this and feel like they are doing good things should not be surprising.

And good people can still do great evil through complacency("Evil thrives when good men do nothing.") or ignorance('The road to hell is paved with good intentions'), all without apparently compromising their ideals. The NG may not have much in the way of aggressive territorial ambitions, or a desire to meddle in other peoples' affairs(like the Tolkeen War), believing in a way that charity begins at hope, and that it is perfectly right to protect their own before going out and getting tangled up in other peoples' messes. Nothing wrong with that at all, though a Tolkeenite or a wandering Lazolite hero looking for reinforcements to help him out may dispute that.
They also see nothing wrong with exporting weapons. It's a hostile world, after all, and it's a win-win situation for them; they get profits to plow back into making their lives better and borders secure, and people out in the bad world get the weapons they need/want that they might not otherwise have. That many, if not most, of the weapons end up being used on other good(or well-intentioned/unprincipled) people is an unfortunate matter that the NG can exercise little control over.

[Hotrod]

Many people in modern cultures see the arms industry as an evil thing, particularly in regions where arms are unnecessary for daily life. I'm not passing judgment on them, or on the arms industry. I'm sure there are principled people who work for and against the manufacture and trade of weapons. That Palladium chose to portray Ishpeming and Northern Gun as organizations dominated by morally upright people is a welcome reversal of pop culture stereotypes established in movies like "Bowling for Columbine," "Lord of War," and "The Runaway Jury." There's plenty of debate around this issue, but it's rare to see a weapons manufacturer portrayed as the good guy these days.

It seemed like an odd choice for Kevin, but I like it. Rifts is at its best when it challenges our paradigms with radically different "what if" scenarios, like turning the USA into a Nazi-esque fascist state, introducing the idea that the alien invaders could be the lowliest of victims, or that the cost of gaining great power could be the loss of one's natural lifespan, sanity, or humanity.

I think it's safe to say that Rifts is a radically different environment from what we have today, and it is the high-tech weaponry of organizations like Northern Gun that allow weaker species like humans to stand up to supernatural monstrosities, of which there are many in the setting. Blacksmiths, fletchers, and bowyers aren't often portrayed as evil in medieval period fiction or fantasy. Who knows? It might be fun to turn the stereotype totally on its head by having a society in Palladium Fantasy that tries to limit weapon production and distribution the way that many modern-day developed countries do.

[Svartalf]

Well, when you are on the defensive, having an arms industry is a good thing...

As said earlier, guns don't kill people... it all depends who has them and why they use them.

[taalismn]

A link to my old Good Splugorth thread, where there's an entire NATION of Good Alien Intelligences(and their effects and factions):
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=82955

[kaid]

Many people in modern cultures see the arms industry as an evil thing, particularly in regions where arms are unnecessary for daily life. I'm not passing judgment on them, or on the arms industry. I'm sure there are principled people who work for and against the manufacture and trade of weapons. That Palladium chose to portray Ishpeming and Northern Gun as organizations dominated by morally upright people is a welcome reversal of pop culture stereotypes established in movies like "Bowling for Columbine," "Lord of War," and "The Runaway Jury." There's plenty of debate around this issue, but it's rare to see a weapons manufacturer portrayed as the good guy these days.

It seemed like an odd choice for Kevin, but I like it. Rifts is at its best when it challenges our paradigms with radically different "what if" scenarios, like turning the USA into a Nazi-esque fascist state, introducing the idea that the alien invaders could be the lowliest of victims, or that the cost of gaining great power could be the loss of one's natural lifespan, sanity, or humanity.

I think it's safe to say that Rifts is a radically different environment from what we have today, and it is the high-tech weaponry of organizations like Northern Gun that allow weaker species like humans to stand up to supernatural monstrosities, of which there are many in the setting. Blacksmiths, fletchers, and bowyers aren't often portrayed as evil in medieval period fiction or fantasy. Who knows? It might be fun to turn the stereotype totally on its head by having a society in Palladium Fantasy that tries to limit weapon production and distribution the way that many modern-day developed countries do.

In our modern age it is a bit suspect to be heavily armed and arms manufacturers are looked on a bit questioning because at least in north america and most of the civilized world normal civilians have little need to own weapons let alone carry them around all the time. We don't need to hunt for our food we don't have big slavering monsters and alien menaces attacking our towns. We have a country wide cohesive military force so if fighting is needed you can rely on those trained in such things to do it not the average citizens.

In rifts largely none of the above exists. Most people likely hunt if not for all their food then to supplement their food except those living in the largest cities. The world is a hodge podge of wilderness and small towns with a handful of larger cities and other than a few specific areas there is no widespread military to help defend you and your interests from a multitude of active hostilities.

In such an environment I dare say that a weapon manufacturer like the northern gun likely is looked on as a very good thing. Unless you want to deal with active criminals in the black market the northern gun is the major source of any town/village/cities access to weapons/armor/clothing/high tech consumer goods/computers/medicine/construction equipment/ and most other consumer goods that a town can't or won't produce for itself. That and the northern gun itself is a lawful country no crazed warlords it is well run with consistent laws. Ones that don't hunt down or persecute DBees as long as they are willing to follow the same laws anybody else does. For magic users the main thing is just don't show your magic off if you do it peace keepers can rightfully treat you as if you have a deadly weapon which is a sensible enough policy.

Everybody looks at the weapons and armor the NG produces but that is only a fraction of the business they do. These guys are pretty much fleet farm combined with walmart.

[Qev]

The alien intelligences primarily described in Rifts are the good ones. You don't want to meet the evil ones.

[taalismn]

The alien intelligences primarily described in Rifts are the good ones. You don't want to meet the evil ones.

Reminds me of a cartoon of a massive giant looming over a city and running people, with the caption 'TROUBLE'.
The next picture in the sequence shows that the giant is actually a giant hand puppet. Caption: "REAL TROUBLE'.

[Tor]

good people can still do great evil through complacency("Evil thrives when good men do nothing.")

I don't agree with this. Neutrality or refusing to fight evil is not itself evil, simply neutral/selfish.

At most we could say that neutrality could provide unintended camouflage for evil to hide within, compared to hiding in a hostile territory or a void.

Reminds me of a cartoon of a massive giant looming over a city and running people, with the caption 'TROUBLE'.
The next picture in the sequence shows that the giant is actually a giant hand puppet. Caption: "REAL TROUBLE'.

This reminds me of Brawl compared to firstSSB/Melee

[flatline]

Steve Arlo said it best:

"""There aren't any GOOD guys. You realize that, don't you? I mean: there aren't EVIL guys, and INNOCENT guys. It's just - it's just... It's just a bunch of guys. """

--flatline

[Tor]

The bunch of guys are all evil and good and innocent in their own respective subjective ways.

[Alrik Vas]

Steve Arlo said it best:

"""There aren't any GOOD guys. You realize that, don't you? I mean: there aren't EVIL guys, and INNOCENT guys. It's just - it's just... It's just a bunch of guys. """

--flatline

I get the point, but it's also easy to see a statement like this as given by someone who doesn't want to face any sort of morality. It sounds like a excuse to disengage yourself from the world, rather than interact with it.

Which, to each their own on that, taking a stand is taking a side, taking a side is as much an issue as the conflict itself. Humans are wierd.

[taalismn]

Does the Flying Spaghetti Monster count as a Good Alien Intelligence?

[flatline]

Steve Arlo said it best:

"""There aren't any GOOD guys. You realize that, don't you? I mean: there aren't EVIL guys, and INNOCENT guys. It's just - it's just... It's just a bunch of guys. """

--flatline

I get the point, but it's also easy to see a statement like this as given by someone who doesn't want to face any sort of morality. It sounds like a excuse to disengage yourself from the world, rather than interact with it.

Which, to each their own on that, taking a stand is taking a side, taking a side is as much an issue as the conflict itself. Humans are wierd.

I like the quote because I think it's recognizing that, with few exceptions, people who do evil things from someone else's perspective, don't usually think of themselves as evil or see their actions as evil.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Clearly so, but it also blurs the lines and says we're all jerks so what's the point?

[eliakon]

It is likely just this major philosophical question (What is Evil) that the concept of alignments was designed to avoid. Instead of having construct a framework of a consensual definition of 'evil' for all the people who might ever play this game everywhere forever, it simply creates one and says 'for this world, this is good, this is evil' Yes, it is going to be arbitrary, and it certainly isn't going to hold up under rigorous rhetorical examination....but it wasn't supposed to, its not an actual attempt to codify universal morality, its an attempt to make a playable extraction that can then be used to play the rest of the game.

Or as one of my favorite quotes on the matter goes "Its a game rule, not a Doctoral Thesis"

[Shorty Lickens]

Good and evil are meaningful when your life is finite and your power limited.

Without any sort of barriers or threats I think most intelligent beings would be at a minimum very selfish and self indulgent, and probably have a lack of empathy & sympathy.

To outsiders that attitude would more likely come off as evil rather than good.

[Shorty Lickens]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... geMorality

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... rehendGood

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... iouslyEvil

[Alrik Vas]

Assuming they never evolved away from being influenced by survival instincts, i'd say yeah.

[Vrykolas2k]

There are good and selfish alien intelligences, like Splynncryth himself... they just aren't as overtly active, for the most part.

[Tor]

I disagree. I believe that if you know evil is being perpetuated and you stand by and do nothing, then your lack of action = sanctioning evil.

Sanctioning requires giving approval to something, which is a form of indirect support. Avoidance and neutrality are not sanctioning. There's a world of difference between a vegetarian who keeps to themselves and one who is all "I think you guys eating meat is great, don't mind me, eat that cow, build your biceps!"

Instead of having construct a framework of a consensual definition of 'evil' for all the people who might ever play this game everywhere forever, it simply creates one and says 'for this world, this is good, this is evil'

Upon careful analysis of alignment terms, they really don't define a lot of rigidity in many areas. I've made arguments for how principled characters can lie, and how the lack of definition for 'innocent' allows anyone to be judged guilty and immune to its restrictions.

There are good and selfish alien intelligences, like Splynncryth himself... they just aren't as overtly active, for the most part.

Splynncryth being an active exception, being a practiced Juggler, just don't tell Amon and Cihuacoatl.

[eliakon]

Instead of having construct a framework of a consensual definition of 'evil' for all the people who might ever play this game everywhere forever, it simply creates one and says 'for this world, this is good, this is evil'

Upon careful analysis of alignment terms, they really don't define a lot of rigidity in many areas. I've made arguments for how principled characters can lie, and how the lack of definition for 'innocent' allows anyone to be judged guilty and immune to its restrictions.

Which is why I had the rest of the paragraph
Instead of having construct a framework of a consensual definition of 'evil' for all the people who might ever play this game everywhere forever, it simply creates one and says 'for this world, this is good, this is evil' Yes, it is going to be arbitrary, and it certainly isn't going to hold up under rigorous rhetorical examination....but it wasn't supposed to, its not an actual attempt to codify universal morality, its an attempt to make a playable extraction that can then be used to play the rest of the game.
Note that bit in red? Yah that's the part where it says, this ISN'T going to hold up to heavy duty rhetorical twisting of terms, or deep philosophical critiques.....It wasn't SUPPOSED TO. Its a game, not a Doctoral Dissertation.

[Zer0 Kay]

They are not evil, they are like Cthulu. It isn't that they hate us as much as it is that they view us like the average person views an ant. Now why isn't there an AI that is an entomologist or one that has a reverence for all life like a Buddhist? Dunnoh. But if you consider them evil for seeing us like that then we are evil for seeing ants the same way. Some view us as we view cows and others as we do mosquitos.

[taalismn]

They are not evil, they are like Cthulu. It isn't that they hate us as much as it is that they view us like the average person views an ant. Now why isn't there an AI that is an entomologist or one that has a reverence for all life like a Buddhist? Dunnoh. But if you consider them evil for seeing us like that then we are evil for seeing ants the same way. Some view us as we view cows and others as we do mosquitos.

"Damn it, honey, we're going to have to spray for humans again!"

[Tor]

why isn't there an AI that is an entomologist or one that has a reverence for all life like a Buddhist? Dunnoh

Actually there very well could be, we don't know all the AIs, after all. They're probably in the minority because anyone with that much empathy would be kept busy doing a lot of work and not building up a power base to defend themselves with.

[Eclipse]

There's Zurvan of course, but he's slightly other-dimensional. At least I think he's an AI of sorts. Anyway, they're not social animals like us, so our form of morality is pretty meaningless. They may be super powerful and intelligent, but I wouldn't rate them much differently from the non-vertebrate life in the oceans and even puddles in terms of their morality. e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_%28genus%29

[Zer0 Kay]

They are not evil, they are like Cthulu. It isn't that they hate us as much as it is that they view us like the average person views an ant. Now why isn't there an AI that is an entomologist or one that has a reverence for all life like a Buddhist? Dunnoh. But if you consider them evil for seeing us like that then we are evil for seeing ants the same way. Some view us as we view cows and others as we do mosquitos.

"Damn it, honey, we're going to have to spray for humans again!"

hope there are no human collectors

"Note the markings on this one? It kind of appears to be a drawing of a butterfly on this ankle and a rose on this one."

"Must be a rare specimen."

"Well the particular combination maybe, but many of the female specimens have these sort of markings, and many of either sex has them in various locations... It's almost as if they were smart enough to put this on themselves."

"...Nah."

[taalismn]

"Just remember to leave air holes in their container. We don't want a repeat of LAST time."

[Zer0 Kay]

"Just remember to leave air holes in their container. We don't want a repeat of LAST time."

What? No, that's when you pin them to the board.

[SAMASzero]

Why do we see so many evil Alien Intelligences?

Think about it: To them, we tend to be seen as little more than bugs.

Of the people who seek out and/or regularly interact with insects in real life, how many of them are positively concerned with the bugs' well-being?

[Qev]

When it comes right down to it, the alien intelligences in Rifts are actually fairly petty and banal for vastly-intelligent immortal entities. "Let's conquer some planets, run a business conglomerate," really?

Take something that's undying, more intelligent than entire worlds full of mortal beings, and operates on timescales that make a human lifespan seem like less than the flip of a transistor gate does to a human. Even if such a being were 'good', would mortals be able to recognize it as such? The good it might be attempting to do could be entirely beyond mortal scope - like trying to prevent the heat-death of the universe, or ensuring that the collapse of this universe would lead to the birth of an even richer one - and so its actions could seem incomprehensible, capricious, or arbitrary.

Nobody bothers explaining to the ants why you're annihilating their kingdoms in order to clean up a mercury spill. The act is a long-term benefit even to them, but they're certainly not going to see it that way. Not that you asked.

[Eclipse]

That concept reminds me of the rpg Eclipse Phase that I recently read (the big picture secret at the end of the book). But yeah, that kind of thinking seems to be far beyond the usual thinking of the alien intelligences we've seen. Except for Brahman from Pantheons of the Megaverse who's busy with keeping the Old Ones sedated, using his pantheon to effectively watch his back/mitigate the lesser AIs.

[Hotrod]

The canon AIs seem so preoccupied with lording over their dominions and subjects, I'm not sure that the "humans are ants" analogy works... unless we're something like an ant farm to them. The benevolent ones just watch now and then when they get bored. The mean ones tap the glass, shake it around, pull our limbs off, or break out their magnifying glasses (which I think would fall more into the "power corrupts" approach).

On an related note, 61% of responders to this poll think that I don't suck!

[Zer0 Kay]

The canon AIs seem so preoccupied with lording over their dominions and subjects, I'm not sure that the "humans are ants" analogy works... unless we're something like an ant farm to them. The benevolent ones just watch now and then when they get bored. The mean ones tap the glass, shake it around, pull our limbs off, or break out their magnifying glasses (which I think would fall more into the "power corrupts" approach).

On an related note, 61% of responders to this poll think that I don't suck!

I choose to read that as they believe in one of the other theories more than they think you suck. The other choices and you sucking arent mutually exclusive though.

[slade the sniper]

Because it is easier to destroy than to create...and a lot more fun, too.
And because we're looking at apex predators of the megaverse from the perspective of the lemmings and rabbits.

Grrr...I must agreeeeee!

-STS

[slade the sniper]

As a counterpoint, I offer up Northern Gun 1, in which the vast majority of NPCs are of good or unprincipled alignments. Apparently, the most moral society in the world is also its most famous arms dealer. How's that for turning a stereotype on its head?

America!!!!

-STS

[Eclipse]

As a counterpoint, I offer up Northern Gun 1, in which the vast majority of NPCs are of good or unprincipled alignments. Apparently, the most moral society in the world is also its most famous arms dealer. How's that for turning a stereotype on its head?

America!!!!

-STS

Umm, yeah, that shows the flaws in the alignment system. You can be one alignment within a society and another outside of it.

[taalismn]

[Umm, yeah, that shows the flaws in the alignment system. You can be one alignment within a society and another outside of it.

One man's patriot is another person's terrorist.
IMHO the perspective you have to take in considering how far is the character willing to go to satisfy themselves?'
Is a selfless zealot who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies a hero, in spite of the fact that he's working for an organization that regularly kills people(or, in fact, was just shooting up the 'enemies of the state' when the grenade came sailing in)?
In his mind, at the moment he decided to dive on the grenade, were his thoughts "I gotta save my buddies!' or is he going 'I'm going to Valhalla for sure for this!' ?
I figure self-sacrifice has a lot to do with 'good' and 'bad' alignments...how far are you willing to inconvenience yourself(incurring physical risk to yourself, or stepping outside the legal lines) to satisfy yourself or help others?

That's a FACTOR, not an entirity, because even that can break down in certain circumstances.

[Hotrod]

Ah, the "what is evil anyway?" debate. It's good to see it again; it's been a while since I saw it on these boards.

For me, an evil person is someone unbounded by basic moral principles. Your metric is a good one, though I think a good person could willingly do some pretty awful stuff. The difference with an evil person is that they don't need a pressing reason to do something awful; they'll commit atrocities for relatively trivial reasons.

I don't consider most enemies to be evil people.

[Grell]

There ARE good Alien Intelligences and the books state as much (Dragons and Gods, I think). The book also says that even a good AI would be so far removed from the human condition (or that of any sentient species) that they would still be extremely calloused to the consequences of their actions on lesser beings and probably perceived as evil or at least dangerously indifferent by mortal races.

[Hotrod]

The books say there are good AIs, but fail to provide any examples. The books provide many examples of evil intelligences, as well as lots of context suggesting that "any" should be something more like "could theoretically be any, but they're mostly evil jerks with little to no sense of honor (are there any canon aberrant AIs? I can't think of any).

IQ is usually genius level; the monster is cunning, deceptive, and treacherous.
Enemies: Humans and the forces of good. Often share animosity toward other intelligences.
Allies: May conspire with other forces of evil
Notes: The physical form of these horrendous creatures is never humanoid.

[Grell]

Being good requires a bit of empathy, so for a race of creatures so far removed from the condition of lesser beings I can understand the idea that only a minority of them would be anything other than evil or selfish jerks. As far as no published examples go, with a limited page count I would only put examples that are the most likely to be used by a GM. Apparently, evil jerks with no sense of humor are what the writers feel are the most accessible in that case.

[Tinker Dragoon]

The books say there are good AIs, but fail to provide any examples. The books provide many examples of evil intelligences, as well as lots of context suggesting that "any" should be something more like "could theoretically be any, but they're mostly evil jerks with little to no sense of honor (are there any canon aberrant AIs? I can't think of any).

Jupiter is Aberrant, and Cronus/Saturn used to be. Diabolic still seems to be the most popular alignment for Alien Intelligences, though.

I also just noticed that 3% of Soul Worms are good or Unprincipled, but again, the only example character we have is evil (the Miscreant Inix).

Being good requires a bit of empathy, so for a race of creatures so far removed from the condition of lesser beings I can understand the idea that only a minority of them would be anything other than evil or selfish jerks. As far as no published examples go, with a limited page count I would only put examples that are the most likely to be used by a GM. Apparently, evil jerks with no sense of humor are what the writers feel are the most accessible in that case.

Empathy goes the other way, too. People don't easily empathize (or sympathize) with a faceless mass of tentacles, no matter how kind and gentle it may be.

[Tor]

Good AIs are obviously too mysterious to bother detailing.

Palladium tends to spend more time detailng fightable villains than allies, too, which could be part of it.