HU2: Supernatural P.S. vs. Natural A.R.

[VR Dragon]

I was hoping to get an official rules clarification for how blows from a subject with supernatural strength affects a subject with a natural armor rating.

According to the books for all SDC settings if you roll to attack something with a NAR and hit but fall under the A.R. number then the blow "bounces off harmlessly" but if the hit beats the A.R. full damage is inflicted.

Then later in the heroes unlimited 2nd edition there are two super powers (alter physical structure stone and metal) that are both natural armor ratings but say that blows from a being with supernatural strength inflict half damage to the subject if the attack hits but falls below the A.R. and full damage if hits and beats the A.R.

So is this effect of SNPS always inflict half damage on a hit but failure to breach A.R. and full damage when it beats A.R. of things that have a natural armor rating or is this a exception and blows from SNPS bounce off everything on a failure to beat A.R. like all other attacks do from other sources?

If these are some odd exception then why would SNPS do half/full on these two abilities that offer superior protections but bounce off lesser types in the case of rolling under A.R.? That does not make much normal or comic book sense.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I was hoping to get an official rules clarification for how blows from a subject with supernatural strength affects a subject with a natural armor rating.

According to the books for all SDC settings if you roll to attack something with a NAR and hit but fall under the A.R. number then the blow "bounces off harmlessly" but if the hit beats the A.R. full damage is inflicted.

Then later in the heroes unlimited 2nd edition there are two super powers (alter physical structure stone and metal) that are both natural armor ratings but say that blows from a being with supernatural strength inflict half damage to the subject if the attack hits but falls below the A.R. and full damage if hits and beats the A.R.

So is this effect of SNPS always inflict half damage on a hit but failure to breach A.R. and full damage when it beats A.R. of things that have a natural armor rating or is this a exception and blows from SNPS bounce off everything on a failure to beat A.R. like all other attacks do from other sources?

If these are some odd exception then why would SNPS do half/full on these two abilities that offer superior protections but bounce off lesser types in the case of rolling under A.R.? That does not make much normal or comic book sense.

If those two powers are the only place that rule appears, then by definition that ruling aplies only to those two instances of natural AR, and in all other instances act normally (no damage).

that's the nature of an exceptions-based system. if the rule says "attacks hit below natural AR inflict no damage", and then two powers say "in this case with this power, use this instead", then they do not create precidents for applying in all situations, only those sitautions.

[VR Dragon]

That just doesn't follow. That then makes as much sense as aging in reverse and babies having old people. Just having a natural A.R. is no issue but those abilities are of superior resistances. They are not affected my attacks from human scope strength attacks and give into damage from SNPS because that is the trump card of strength abilities.

So a big APS Metal mutant is fighting a big uber strong beast and is getting crush into a tin can by its immense strength but some cheap robot that has a low armor that is equal to NAR is not damaged because the beast fails to roll high enough to be its A.R.

If this is true I would hope its an error that gets corrected. Either the powers have a typo and their AR works like the standard rule or SNPS treats all instances of NAR the same. Groundless exceptions cause annoying misconceptions.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I only say what the rules are. I never said they are good rules

[Glistam]

It seems to me as if the two powers A.P.S. Stone and A.P.S. Metal were given weaknesses versus Supernatural Strength, energy attacks and armor piercing bullets (they all do half-damage when the strike roll is under the A.R.) as a trade-off to

"Normal punches, kicks, knives, swords, clubs, bullets, and similar attacks do no damage whether the roll to strike is 17 or higher, or not."

As discussed elsewhere, this is not the way Natural A.R. is listed as working in the definition of A.R. in the beginning of the book.

In my opinion, these two powers are a weaker form of protection, not a superior one, and another reason why I see them as exceptions to the A.R. rules.

[Alrik Vas]

I think it's acceptable that SN PS breaks Natural AR for half damage no matter what applies the AR. It might not be an accepted interpretation of the Rules as Written, but I think it's a good way to do it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

As the NAR rules are written something bounces. So if the NAR char is hit just right and under the NAR then "pow to the moon Alice" the hit char is thrown back but is otherwise unhurt.

[VR Dragon]

Well I like to run my games as rules as written. I have been playing since 1989 and I like to work as close to default as possible. So when I have been playing my games and using Natural Armor Rating rules find two instances of where those rules do not stand up I then think like a judge and consider the law and these exceptions.

Judge: General rule Under A.R. attacks bounces off. Fine.

Lawyer: I submit SNPS vs. APS: Stone - attacks from Supernatural P.S. inflict half damage if rolled under A.R.

Lawyer: I also submit SNPS vs. APS: Metal attacks from Supernatural P.S. inflict half damage if rolled under A.R.

Lawyer: In both cases no level of human level of strength can damage these which makes them superior to other instances of Natural Armor Ratings.

Judge: After considering your points I can see that in all cases of SNPS vs. NAR that rolls under A.R. will inflict half damage.

There is no reason logical or metaphysical that if SNPS me can punch and damage Invulnerability for half damage always. Super Armor APS Metal and Stone for full/half. That the unsuper natural armor would bounce off blows that humbled its better.

And for those who feel like discussing APS stone and metal are not better than general natural armor then just consider:

Blows from normal human strength, bullets, knives, clubs, etc do not damage no matter the roll.
Extraordinary, Superhuman (this is also robot level strength) are strong enough to damage and inflict damage if they roll over A.R as per NAR. In APS: Metal these attacks bounce off if under A.R. as normal. In stone form they inflict 1/4th damage if under A.R.

Blows from SNPS inflict full damage if they roll over A.R. and half damage if rolled under in both instances.

Energy attacks bounce off APS: Metal if under A.R. and half damage if under A.R. for APS: stone.

So I admit APS:Stone blows but Metal beats.

But that is not the issue of this topic.

In both cases of the above Natural A.R. issues SNPS does full/half just like A.P. bullets and related nature attacks. It is this element that I would like to stick with please.

[say652]

I didn't mean to start a fire with this one. My apologies.

[VR Dragon]

I didn't mean to start a fire with this one. My apologies.

No fire, I just want to be sure I am clear on my understanding of the rules. I can't feel sure in offering answers to someone's questions of the rules if I am not properly understanding them. This is for my clarification. Thank you for your post bringing this to my attention.


After reviewing all this I am glad I only play Invulnerable powered heroes. That is all cut and dry.

[Tor]

It only applies to those powers, if supernatural PS surpassed ALL natural ARs, it would have simply listed that under the SNPS power and saved some space.

If it's upsetting: oh well, powers often have strange advantages and disadvantages.

[eliakon]

Wouldn't the whole point of exceptions be....that they are exceptions? If something is universal it will say so. Now there ARE some specific powers/items/spells/what not that DO have universal rules buried in them, but those rules say that they are applicable in other situations.

Plus it creates a paradox. APS: Ice has a different exception than APS: Metal and APS: Stone. If the exception is to become the rule....which exception is used? Which ever one is generalized into the rule the OTHER one is not a violation of the rule....

[Tor]

Looking to PU1's majors we also see that there is no consistent rule:
*APS Crystal is bypassed by SNPS in a similar way to Metal/Stone, yet it can also be bypassed by Ext/SH to a lesser degree (whereas those can't bypass Stone/Metal in any way)
*APS Putty's hard form works against 'all attacks', no mention of any bypass via SNPS
*APS Rubber's AR isn't bypassed either. In fact, even when the AR is rolled over, most attacks do nothing, SNPS is only able to do 1/10 when it surpasses the AR, and none otherwise
*APS Sand has a natural AR which like Putty, has no mention of being bypassed in any way by SNPS like Crystal/Ice/Metal/Stone is.
*APS Wood's AR also has no mention of SNPS bypassing it
*Geothermal Energy's natural AR when in contact with earth (enhanced version of Earth Empowerment) similarly not bypassable
*Matter Expulsion: Crystal/Metal/Stone all can make suits with natural ARs, none of which have the SNPS vulnerablility that APS Crystal/Metal/Steel do.
*Mega-Wings also no SNPS bypass
*AR imbued in characters by Power Touch (and possibly by Control Density... a bit unclear about that since that aspect says 'items') no bypass

[VR Dragon]

yeah not really impressed by the stuff in the Power Unlimited books. A rough collection a best I was looking at the main book since it was written by Kevin and has been around longer.

And my god just looking at the mess you bring up about the other powers only shows why anyone might get confused.

[VR Dragon]

Thank you everyone who wanted to come over from that other topic and starting again on what feels like the "I'm right and your wrong and we already told you why" but i was not looking to replay that can of mess. If I read that wrong I'm sorry but it can be hard to gleen such from only words without tone.

I posted here to get an official your wrong and they told you so please.

[Glistam]

yeah not really impressed by the stuff in the Power Unlimited books. A rough collection a best I was looking at the main book since it was written by Kevin and has been around longer.

And my god just looking at the mess you bring up about the other powers only shows why anyone might get confused.

The following powers from Powers Unlimited 1 have Kevin listed as either the author or the retooler, and have instances of Natural A.R. that does not have any special circumstances in regards to Supernatural Strength:

Earth Empowerment (page 21)
Matter Expulsion: Crystal (page 77)
Matter Expulsion: Metal (page 78)
Matter Expulsion: Stone (page 78)
Power Touch (page 81)

And from Powers Unlimited 3 (excluding the new Matter Expulsion powers, which seem only "inspired" by the ones Kevin did in PU1):

Monstrous Form (page 81)

It's fairly straightforward, and Kevin has been consistent both in the main book and in the subsequent powers books he directly contributed to. Natural Armor Rating does not get bypassed by Supernatural Strength except in a couple of isolated circumstances, and those circumstances are clearly laid out in those powers which are affected.

I've personally long maintained that the Supernatural Strength super power could use a couple additional sub-abilities to really make it on par with other Major Powers. Giving it the ability to still deal some damage even when the Natural A.R. is not beat by the attack roll would be a much-needed addition to the power, but by the rules as written this is not the case.

[Tor]

Supernatural strength is a lot stronger than a lot of major powers, I don't think it needs a boost at all.

[Alrik Vas]

Sorry, I don't see a reason for it to not be that powerful, other than some people arguing that the rules must have conflicting exceptions, or else it's just not Palladium Books.

What logical reasoning is there for SNPS to smash through someone made out of stone and harm an Invulnerable hero, but not kill an animal with a Natural AR?

[The Beast]

I only say what the rules are. I never said they are good rules

[Tor]

What logical reasoning is there for SNPS to smash through someone made out of stone and harm an Invulnerable hero, but not kill an animal with a Natural AR?

Simple: super-powers sometimes have supernatural properties, which can include supernatural vulnerabilities. Other stuff doesn't.

Is it logical that lycanthropes take added damage from silver?

[Alrik Vas]

Having a weakness to supernatural strength is like having a weakness to being hit by a truck though...I mean, I see what you're getting at. In Rifts (I think) SN PS is sometimes described as an aura of power rather than a product of muscle mass etc. if it's magical energy doing the damage in that case, there's a precedent for it, yet I don't see why it wouldn't apply to Natural AR. The rules make sense, they're making an exception, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

[Tor]

It's definitely more than just truck-like. A robotic PS of 60 is going to do way more damage than a supernatural PS of 10, for example, but the supernatural PS is still going to get through in spite of being weaker.

It's... BEYONDER the supernatural

[Alrik Vas]

Let's not break out the nuclear option: No Marvel 80s references.

[Tor]

Eighties.... eighty's?

[Alrik Vas]

Secret Wars 2, I think it was. Beyonder was the villain/protagonist/schlup tying it all together. Back in the day.

[Tor]

Yeah I remember him, just making apostrophe-pokes.

Edit: would just like to say I am not hijacking this thread with vampires.

[Alrik Vas]

Right...fixed. Auto-pilot typing.

[VR Dragon]

Thread not dead... official response requested please. No more off topics.

[Alrik Vas]

The closest you're going to get on "offical" is what Nekira said. I just think that natural AR shouldn't apply vs SNPS.

[Glistam]

You would be better off writing a message directly to the person yo hope would answer this question, rather than hope that person will eventually randomly come read this topic.

[VR Dragon]

This forum is answered by palladium's people and the answer is moved to the big wall of answers. So official is what i am looking for.

[Tor]

The official answer per the book as we have pointed out is that SNPS has no inherent ability to bypass NAR except in the case of specific NARs provided by certain powers, in which it may bypass it to differing degrees per the power's description.

[Nekira Sudacne]

This forum is answered by palladium's people and the answer is moved to the big wall of answers. So official is what i am looking for.

Uhh, I hate to break it to you, but no palladium employee answers questions on this forum*. it is purely a place where fans debate. the F.A.Q. Archive is just a listing of what answers a particular poster accepted, without regard to if that poster accepted a cannonical (or even logical) response), which is done by unpaid moderators who have no authority to write offical rules for palladium.

You're confusion is understandable. Palladium is the only game company I know of with a purely nonoffical FAQ with no standards for answers.

*there was exactly one topic that got an offical palladium employee to answer, after the debate raged on for 2000 pages with no end in sight

[VR Dragon]

So a great big waste of time then. Oh well this topic is dead then and I will strive to not bother posting further.