Hell Fire of the Apok and its neat selectivity

[Tor]

Due to Apoks have separate damage listed for this attack, I take it we ignore the two different MD rolls on page 86, right?

I noticed on page 57 it only says "damage" and not "MD" or anything though.

I think this means that the damage Apoks inflict with this spell is actually LESS than normal. Well... for normal target, anyway.

This is actually pretty good... it means that while the spell isn't particularly useful against mundane opponents (unless they happened to be SDC) that you can basically avoid harming your allies with this spell.

The combination of the mask with the spell is a bit different though...

far as I can tell, when using it against creatures of magic or non-evil (good or selfish) supernatural creatures, the spell would inflict 6d4x10 (or 3d4x20) which means there is the potential to inflict 1 or 2 MD with it, since it rolls about 150 SDC on average when doubled.

The real artillery use of this would be against evil supernatural creatures though, since they (and only they) suffer that damage>MD conversion, in which case it's a huge shocker.

That they can purge pretty much just evil guys with it (unarmored Lazurus Vespers aside... go hide wizard) is really neat though. Something that other mages with the power (wormspeakers, priests of light) could not possibly do.

On the other hand, if an Apok were dueling a corrupt Priest of Light and both were attacking each other with this spell, the Apok would be at a severe disadvantage and would probably avoid using the spell at all since the damage from their version of it was so light. Although they can be evil, the Priest of Light would not be supernatural so the SD>MD conversion would not take place. Whereas, the PoL's HF is MD from the get-go and would hurt the Apok.

[eliakon]

Due to Apoks have separate damage listed for this attack, I take it we ignore the two different MD rolls on page 86, right?

I noticed on page 57 it only says "damage" and not "MD" or anything though.

I think this means that the damage Apoks inflict with this spell is actually LESS than normal. Well... for normal target, anyway.

This is actually pretty good... it means that while the spell isn't particularly useful against mundane opponents (unless they happened to be SDC) that you can basically avoid harming your allies with this spell.

The combination of the mask with the spell is a bit different though...

far as I can tell, when using it against creatures of magic or non-evil (good or selfish) supernatural creatures, the spell would inflict 6d4x10 (or 3d4x20) which means there is the potential to inflict 1 or 2 MD with it, since it rolls about 150 SDC on average when doubled.

The real artillery use of this would be against evil supernatural creatures though, since they (and only they) suffer that damage>MD conversion, in which case it's a huge shocker.

That they can purge pretty much just evil guys with it (unarmored Lazurus Vespers aside... go hide wizard) is really neat though. Something that other mages with the power (wormspeakers, priests of light) could not possibly do.

On the other hand, if an Apok were dueling a corrupt Priest of Light and both were attacking each other with this spell, the Apok would be at a severe disadvantage and would probably avoid using the spell at all since the damage from their version of it was so light. Although they can be evil, the Priest of Light would not be supernatural so the SD>MD conversion would not take place. Whereas, the PoL's HF is MD from the get-go and would hurt the Apok.

I would figure that any damage in Wormwood from magic is going to be MDC, just like every other magic attack in the Rifts line to that point. Basically, I would say that there was no need to come out and say its MD, because every thing was MD. But in your game, you can do what ever you want.

[Giant2005]

The regular Hell Fire spell inflicts M.D.
If the Apok's version was supposed to be some kind of variation that inflicts S.D. instead, it would have to mention itself as being an exception. The fact that it doesn't mention the nature of the damage is because the writer credits us with enough intelligence to realize that it inflicts the same type of damage.

[Tor]

Giant I don't appreciate your subtle implication that I lack intelligence.

"Damage" by default means SDC damage. This is why mega-damage (or MD) is used any time damage is not SDC.

Going by RAW, the spell inflicts SDC unless used against supernatural evil, in which case the mask amplifies the attack.

Are you under the impression that just because most stuff in Wormwood is MDC that EVERYTHING must inflict it or something?

In spite of what some people think, most attacks inflict SDC, humans (except Apoks) do not have supernatural strength. The only human I'm aware of who can inflict MD without SNPS is Defense Monks (page 60) and even then, it only works against supernatural monsters. Non-supernatural "mortal" creatures take SDC, meaning not even a body-hardened monk can damage his fellow humans with hand to hand attacks.

[Chronicle]

Another vague entry. I see it as useless as an sdc attack in wormwood

[Tor]

Even without the mask the Apok still could inflict 1 point of MD with it. It could be used to keep people warm, or to harm SDC travelers, or demons with unique fire vulnerabilities. Plus as I mentioned, I believe it would do MD against supernatural evil. It would actually be a create 'alignment test' power to use if supernatural allies are helping the forces of light... you can test their alignment with the fire. Good/selfish ones would at most take 1-2 MD (and survive) while evil ones would clearly be hurt severely by the fire.

Also noticed in my reply I omitted the Offense Monk's Spirit Punch and the Spirit Monk's Death Strike...

Also worth considering is page 77 where it does list "MD" under the Confessor's Hellfire. So if we treated that as expanding upon paraphrasing in the OCC section then that would support Giant's interpretation.

According to my interpretation of the OCC section, the spell could NEVER actually inflict 3d4x10 MD because any time it would inflict MD (supernatural evil) it would be doubled to 6d4x10 (or 3d4x20, or I suppose 4d6x10 is similar) first due to the supernatural nature. So I guess 3d4x10 MD is the base damage, if we go by the NPC listing...

Although Confessor's description is a bit sketchy and out of touch with the Apok OCC in more ways than one. Bonuses says 'all attacks do double damage" (an OCC/mask power) and Weapons has a 'inflicts DOUBLE damage from all attacks' note, but that isn't how the Apok's power works, it's only double against things which are either creatures of magic or supernatural beings.

They also forgot to list that he should have supernatural strength, and presumably just lumped in the extra MDC the mask gives to the body into his total even though he clearly has no problem with removing the mask (as seen in the comic). A "106 plus 200" wouldn't hurt anyone, and would avoid confusion of thinking perhaps he had an unusually high base MDC for unexplained reasons.

Plus they didn't mention all spells... which is fine I guess. It says "including" so it's fine to leave some out. Just as Vespers "spells of note" clearly isn't all the spells he knows, since per the comic he also knows the mental blast and exorcism spell at least.

Kind of an extreme power, really... it doesn't even do a variable 'low for mortals, high for monsters' thing like the spell usually would, unless we count when the Apok uses his mask.

I'm not totally sure how 'attacks' qualify. I think the damage would double if an Apok cast the spell directly on an enemy, but I'm not sure if it would still be an "attack" if the Apok had just put up a barrier and some supernatural evil thing walked into it later on when the Apok wasn't looking and possibly left...

The damage doubling/conversion of the mask (or similar powers of Inquisitors) should probably have some kind of expiration date (time limit). Otherwise Apoks could be put in charge of laying mine fields and setting traps everywhere and those traps would all be enhanced... which is cool, but some might not like it, and there is an air of silliness I suppose.

[Giant2005]

Giant I don't appreciate your subtle implication that I lack intelligence.

"Damage" by default means SDC damage. This is why mega-damage (or MD) is used any time damage is not SDC.

Going by RAW, the spell inflicts SDC unless used against supernatural evil, in which case the mask amplifies the attack.

Are you under the impression that just because most stuff in Wormwood is MDC that EVERYTHING must inflict it or something?

In spite of what some people think, most attacks inflict SDC, humans (except Apoks) do not have supernatural strength. The only human I'm aware of who can inflict MD without SNPS is Defense Monks (page 60) and even then, it only works against supernatural monsters. Non-supernatural "mortal" creatures take SDC, meaning not even a body-hardened monk can damage his fellow humans with hand to hand attacks.

In my book, the Hell Fire spell specifically delivers Mega-Damage. The Apok's note just says damage but it isn't a full spell description, it is a spell modification - nothing within the Apok's modification says anything about changing the type of damage, only the roll for the damage.

[Tor]

It takes less space to write "MD" than "damage" though. So if it remained MD, that ought to have been written. That an author spends more keystrokes and space to write something else seems mighty suspicious of it meaning 'not MD' to me.

If I say "my gun does 2d6 MD to dragons and 1d6 damage to humans" then 'damage' is not presumably mega-damage.

I think we think it ought to remain MD because our view of the Apok (due to mask bias) is "they increase damage". But it may be that their lesser fire is different than their greater mask.

This is all a consideration apart from the Confesser's description, of course.

[Alrik Vas]

Tor, for all of your different rules in different books equal different dimensions, I'm very surprised you don't count "damage" in wormwood as mega damage by default.

[Giant2005]

It takes less space to write "MD" than "damage" though. So if it remained MD, that ought to have been written. That an author spends more keystrokes and space to write something else seems mighty suspicious of it meaning 'not MD' to me.

If I say "my gun does 2d6 MD to dragons and 1d6 damage to humans" then 'damage' is not presumably mega-damage.

I think we think it ought to remain MD because our view of the Apok (due to mask bias) is "they increase damage". But it may be that their lesser fire is different than their greater mask.

This is all a consideration apart from the Confesser's description, of course.

I'll try again.
If a spell describes itself as inflicting M.D. and someone has that spell with modified damage, the usual interpretation is that without something to say otherwise, that modified damage is also M.D.
If it it to be a different damage type to the spell it modifies, it would need to say so.

[Tor]

Tor, for all of your different rules in different books equal different dimensions, I'm very surprised you don't count "damage" in wormwood as mega damage by default.

Your surprise surprises me, why would MD ever be a default?

If a spell describes itself as inflicting M.D. and someone has that spell with modified damage, the usual interpretation is that without something to say otherwise, that modified damage is also M.D. If it it to be a different damage type to the spell it modifies, it would need to say so.

I don't see why it would need to. "MD" is briefer than "damage" and would be used if it were retained. Is there really even a reason for Apoks to have better hellfire when fighting non-supernatural evil?

It seems like an ability to avoid inflicting damage to good supernaturals and non-supernatural mortal allies would be more of an asset in their aiding the forces of light and protecting the weak and innocent.

They can use this tactic with molotovs or grenades, why not with hellfire?

[sHaka]

Would a magic power called "Hell Fire" make sense as an SDC power used to warm travellers, singe mundane foes and affect some niche bad guys with fire vulnerabilities OR as a mega damage attack that incinerates all-comers with righteous fiery fury!!

This is an omission/error on the author's/editor's behalf, pure and simple - it's supposed to be a cool mega damage power that befits its name. Sure, you could interpret it the other way, but why would you?

[Tor]

Would "Impervious to Symbiotes" make sense as a power that doesn't make you impervious to all symbiotes?

Apoks are an exception-based class, their Hellfire does exceptional damage. It's exceptionally high against supernatural evil, we can all agree on that much.

Why exactly does it have to "incinerate all comers"? Apoks are not empowered to incinerate everyone, they are empowered to battle supernatural evil, that's why their mask only enhances damage selectively.

It IS a "cool mega damage power" ... if you're using your mask (which Apoks tend to do) and if you're fighting supernatural monsters (which Apoks also tend to do).

I would interpret it the way I do due to the lack of 'mega' and due to Apoks lacking otherwise lacking special advantages if they try to harm fellow humans.

[eliakon]

On page 28 of Adventure Sourcebook 2 it explicitly lists Fortunes Hell Fire attack as 3d4x10 M.D. Which would suggest that, at least HIS Hell Fire doesn't have any selectivity, and the damage change is just a substitution of different dice, no other change.

[Tor]

I already pointed out that the Confessor also says 3d4x10 MD We're exploring the "NPCS don't always follow the rules" approach and reading the OCC alone

[eliakon]

I already pointed out that the Confessor also says 3d4x10 MD We're exploring the "NPCS don't always follow the rules" approach and reading the OCC alone

I would think that the fact that both NPCs use the exact same format, would logically mean that yes indeed the OCC write up does in fact want the damage to be MD. Though I guess if you exclude enough contradictory facts then you can make anything ambiguous.

[Tor]

Write-ups do not want anything. If you mean that the Confessor's writeup meant the author wanted it to be MD, I concur with the perception of that being his intention. This is purely RAW exploration.

This is not a 'contradictory fact' since NPCs often have added secret rules that enhance them in some way which are not entirely fleshed out or fall outside the sum of the NPC's OCCs. Dunscon's PPE being a good example.

The Confessor is also written in a way that, as I have already pointed out, does not reflect the OCC.

His mask MDC is included in his total even though he sometimes removes the mask.

His writeup says to double his damage.... with no added info. Nothing about it being conditional on the target being supernatural/magic, which it is.

If the NPC writeup writes in the context of him battling supernatural evil, then much like the contextless 'double all attack damage' type text, the contextless '3d4x10 MD' text could also be viewed in the same context as describing the damage he inflicts against a certain assumed enemy (demons and stuff) and not all enemies.

Basically, if "3d4x10 MD" applies to everyone, then so does "double damage", meaning that the Confessor must be assumed to inflict double damage even to mortal good humans, because the mask limits were not expressed.

[eliakon]

Write-ups do not want anything. If you mean that the Confessor's writeup meant the author wanted it to be MD, I concur with the perception of that being his intention. This is purely RAW exploration.

This is not a 'contradictory fact' since NPCs often have added secret rules that enhance them in some way which are not entirely fleshed out or fall outside the sum of the NPC's OCCs. Dunscon's PPE being a good example.

The Confessor is also written in a way that, as I have already pointed out, does not reflect the OCC.

His mask MDC is included in his total even though he sometimes removes the mask.

His writeup says to double his damage.... with no added info. Nothing about it being conditional on the target being supernatural/magic, which it is.

If the NPC writeup writes in the context of him battling supernatural evil, then much like the contextless 'double all attack damage' type text, the contextless '3d4x10 MD' text could also be viewed in the same context as describing the damage he inflicts against a certain assumed enemy (demons and stuff) and not all enemies.

Basically, if "3d4x10 MD" applies to everyone, then so does "double damage", meaning that the Confessor must be assumed to inflict double damage even to mortal good humans, because the mask limits were not expressed.

Which might be a valid argument if it was just the Confessor. But when its not one NPC, but tow NPC Apoks in the books, the likelihood that it is a unique power becomes less likely. I would check others, but I am not aware of any other Apoks that have been statted out.

[Tor]

Fortune (Firetown28) has the same issue though, his stats are written as if he was wearing the mask. His MDC appears to include the 200 bonus from wearing the mask, so we could assume that his magic is written in the same context.

Plus he's a unique case since his powers are retained on Rifts Earth via a special PPE vampirism ritual which may have changed things.

Confessor being a unique case might be due to his rumored past as a Priest of Light, perhaps that combined somehow.

[eliakon]

Fortune (Firetown28) has the same issue though, his stats are written as if he was wearing the mask. His MDC appears to include the 200 bonus from wearing the mask, so we could assume that his magic is written in the same context.

Plus he's a unique case since his powers are retained on Rifts Earth via a special PPE vampirism ritual which may have changed things.

Confessor being a unique case might be due to his rumored past as a Priest of Light, perhaps that combined somehow.

Perhaps. Or perhaps they use the Hell Fire spell as written and just change the damage dice.

[Tor]

It's one or the other, if it's changed to MD it's not 'as written'

[eliakon]

It's one or the other, if it's changed to MD it's not 'as written'

Okay, they used Hellfire as written EXCEPT for the damage dice, which they changed. You know, like it oh, says?

[Tor]

I concur, as written with the applied exception.