UPDATE GOT BILL'S RESPONSE Paired Weapons and 6 armed Jeridu

[Thinyser]

So in their write up it states "The Jeridu have six arms and can use them all equally well and simultaneously." and also "All Jeridu automatically have the skill of Paired Weapons, and can use it for all six of their arms. When using weapons in every arm, the Jeridu basically acts like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once. This makes these people utterly lethal in close combat."
So as we all agree (or maybe not, but for the purpose of this thread we will agree) that with paired weapons you can parry an incoming melee attack while using your other weapon to simul attack your attacker, using one action.
If you have 6 arms that you can use "equally well and simultaneously" it would make sense that it only takes 1 weapon to parry that incoming attack and thus you could simul attack with the other 5 (1 pair of arms does a parry & simul strike and the other 2 pairs do simul double strikes), all for one action.

Extending the debate, using the paired weapon rules with 6 weapons, could I attack 6 different targets (or any number smaller than 6 some of them getting struck multiple times) using only one action?

Note: This is NOT how I run my game, but by the book it seems that's the literal RAW.

I tone it down and say that they get the normal paired wep ability to parry and simul, do double strikes, and all that, but that its the extra attacks the race gets at 1st and 4th level that account for the extra arm useage. Even then they are pretty insane.

I'm just wondering if this is how you interpret the RAW and if you would run them that way or not?

EDIT: Before anybody asks the Jeridu are in Land of the Damned 1, p.69.

Link to the response by Bill Coffin.

[Tor]

Being able to use 3 pairs of weapons isn't the same as being able to use 2 trios of them and certainly not a set of 6.

Pair still means you're limited to 2 combined actions at once. 6 arms just means more options.

Unless the Jeridu have the special text like Xiticix Warriors/Super-Warriors about being able to do these advanced combination attacks, I don't think they should be able to. These guys lack the insect brain that allows it!

[Giant2005]

So in their write up it states "The Jeridu have six arms and can use them all equally well and simultaneously." and also "All Jeridu automatically have the skill of Paired Weapons, and can use it for all six of their arms. When using weapons in every arm, the Jeridu basically acts like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once. This makes these people utterly lethal in close combat."
So as we all agree (or maybe not, but for the purpose of this thread we will agree) that with paired weapons you can parry an incoming melee attack while using your other weapon to simul attack your attacker, using one action.
If you have 6 arms that you can use "equally well and simultaneously" it would make sense that it only takes 1 weapon to parry that incoming attack and thus you could simul attack with the other 5 (1 pair of arms does a parry & simul strike and the other 2 pairs do simul double strikes), all for one action.

Extending the debate, using the paired weapon rules with 6 weapons, could I attack 6 different targets (or any number smaller than 6 some of them getting struck multiple times) using only one action?

This is all true.
As to the question, I handle Jeridu by staying the hell away from them and never encountering them within the game in any shape, way or form.

[say652]

Six arms = 6 actions per attack. I had boticed the races durability isn't all that spectacular though. So that is the key to controlling the "elven blenders"

[Thinyser]

Being able to use 3 pairs of weapons isn't the same as being able to use 2 trios of them and certainly not a set of 6.

Pair still means you're limited to 2 combined actions at once. 6 arms just means more options.

Unless the Jeridu have the special text like Xiticix Warriors/Super-Warriors about being able to do these advanced combination attacks, I don't think they should be able to. These guys lack the insect brain that allows it!

I believe that the phrases I quoted above mean they most certainly do have the ability to use them all at once. Since it clearly says they can do exactly that.

"have six arms and can use them all equally well and simultaneously."

Not "have six arms and can use them all equally well, but only in pairs of 2 at a time"

"he can control three sets of paired weapons at once"

Not he can control three sets of paired weapons in succession.
See the difference?

If you claim that somehow the phrases that state they CAN "use all of their arms equally well" (ie hexa-dextrous, like ambidextrous, but for 6 instead of 2) "and simultaneously" (meaning at the same time as he uses any number of his other arms) and that they CAN "control three sets of paired weapons" (thats 6 weapons) "at once" (meaning all at the same time, ie simultaneously). Then please explain why you believe these words don't mean what they normally mean.

As I stated I run it like you say, but not because I believe it is canon (I think 6 attacks for one action is canon in this) but rather to nerf them.

[say652]

I don't nerf. Do you use the straight die roll for dodging ranged attacks like in Heroes Unlimited?

I mean its obvious hand ti hand is a bad idea so spells or arrows seem like the way to go.

[Thinyser]

I don't nerf. Do you use the straight die roll for dodging ranged attacks like in Heroes Unlimited?

I mean its obvious hand ti hand is a bad idea so spells or arrows seem like the way to go.

Totally off topic but no dodging ranged attacks gets bonuses but its at a -10 and you have to know you are the target of the attack which means a perception roll above a 12 in open combat. So say an archer shoots at you and rolls a 15. you have to perceive you are the target in this case you know that there was an archer and he had a bead on you and you happen to roll a 12 (just high enough to realize you must dodge) and then roll a 25 after bonuses (so your roll+bonuses-10=15) to dodge it.

[say652]

Jeridi pin cushions.lol.
While down right lethal in hand to hand, as a six armed guy should be. Missile weapons are your equalizer. Also make live capture missions

Six actions per attack is WOW. But there's more than one way to skin a ca.. er Jeridu.

[Thinyser]

Jeridi pin cushions.lol.
While down right lethal in hand to hand, as a six armed guy should be. Missile weapons are your equalizer. Also make live capture missions

Six actions per attack is WOW. But there's more than one way to skin a ca.. er Jeridu.

I'm not asking how to nullify their advantages in this thread that is in another one. Lets stick to this topic here please.

To get back on topic again, the question is do you think that the RAW support 6 attacks per action using all arms equally well and simultaneously (which I think it clearly does) and if not then support your argument.

And then if you do think this 6 attacks/action is canon do you run them that way or nerf them like I do or some other way.

[say652]

I would play it six actions per attack. Because, in a mini square you can fight up three oppenents left, front, right but that sneaky fourth guy sneaks up behind you. How can you parry attacks from behind?? And striking more than three times per action costs the auto parry. It balances out. At least in my humble opinion.

[Thinyser]

I would play it six actions per attack. Because, in a mini square you can fight up three oppenents left, front, right but that sneaky fourth guy sneaks up behind you. How can you parry attacks from behind?? And striking more than three times per action costs the auto parry. It balances out. At least in my humble opinion.

That assumes you have a fixed stance and very poor peripheral vision since as you engage attackers to either side you will probably pivot and/or look their way if only briefly and what was behind you is now just off to your left or right and not sneaky. Also any melee attack you know is coming can be parried (I would give a negative for doing it "blind" ie behind your back, but its not out of the realm of possibility). I believe that many parries are successful because they have correctly anticipated the attack's vector and placed the weapon used to parry in its predicted path.

Balances out? only against another Jeridu!

[say652]

or a few minotaurs or an algor I know I keep throwing out large beasts.
also I don't think unarmed strikes do much against iron cell doors.
yea these guys are definitely beasts but six actions per attack.

[drewkitty ~..~]

According to talks with the writer of the book here in the boards, the intention was that the Jeridu could use their arms as we use our two hand together. And that for them to use all six of their hands in combat (with 1 attack each per APM) would require them to takes Paired weapons several times.

[Thinyser]

According to talks with the writer of the book here in the boards, the intention was that the Jeridu could use their arms as we use our two hand together. And that for them to use all six of their hands in combat (with 1 attack each per APM) would require them to takes Paired weapons several times.

Is there any chance I could get a link to that conversation Mr. Coffin had here?

They get paired weapons for free as a racial ability and in the same sentence it says "and can use it for all six of their arms". Seems pretty concrete to me. Plus in the previous section labeled "Incredible Coordination" states that they can use "all six arms equally well and simultaneously" which is a heck of a lot better than normal humans even if only considering 2 arms. In general people are not ambidextrous. Based on what you are saying was said it seems as if the writer himself is a little wishy washy about how he intended them and how he actually wrote them (or at least how they ended up as printed).

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sorry but it was ages ago and I didn't save any link.

[Thinyser]

Sorry but it was ages ago and I didn't save any link.

Thats ok, I was hopeful but not expecting one.
Is Bill's username pblackcrow? And is he still around (under whatever username he used (uses now)?

I've been searching through the archives and found some stuff but nothing that indicates that the author intended paired weapons to be given to them in the racial bonuses and then also required to be purchased as a WP for the multiple arm attacks to be possible. Regardless even if this was his intention it seems that's not what got into print. As I've stated the text itself seems exceptionally explicit as to the use of paired weapons for all 6 arms at once with equal coordination. So unless somebody can come up with an actual argument as to why the phrases I've previously outlined don't mean what they very clearly say, and that Jeridu can't use all 6 arms at once (1 action = 6 attacks or parries or some combo thereof) as canon, then I'm taking it as canon that they can, because really it seems very cut and dried to me.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. First, as a G.M. I have never run for a Jeridu. When the book first came out I suddenly had a whole bunch of players trying to play a Jeridu, and I quickly said no. Not only do I think they're stupidly overpowered, but also way too many people wanting to play this ultra rare race. As such I've actually grown a hatred for the race, and a player would really have to prove him/herself toe before I'd even consider allowing one into my games as a G.M. With that said ...

1: I'd say, by the rules, they can use all six arms for only one attack/action. With that said, I'd still treat it as three sets of paired weapons. Each set can use one of the Paired Weapons techniques (there are 4 total). Example: A Jeridu Parties/Simul (Set 1), Twin Dual Strikes (also a simultaneous, with Set 2), and attacks two different targets (Set 3). So if something causes you to lose auto-parry, that set loses it (but not the others).

That, to me, seems the most by the book way to run it while keeping track of what the character can and can't do with them.

2: pblackcrow is not Bill Coffin.

Hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[say652]

Yea they are an ultra rare race. That never dawned on me. I prefer durability over damage output. Just me.

But still as written. Six actions per attack. More than three strikes in an attack costs the autoparry.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't nerf. Do you use the straight die roll for dodging ranged attacks like in Heroes Unlimited?

I mean its obvious hand ti hand is a bad idea so spells or arrows seem like the way to go.

Totally off topic but no dodging ranged attacks gets bonuses but its at a -10 and you have to know you are the target of the attack which means a perception roll above a 12 in open combat. So say an archer shoots at you and rolls a 15. you have to perceive you are the target in this case you know that there was an archer and he had a bead on you and you happen to roll a 12 (just high enough to realize you must dodge) and then roll a 25 after bonuses (so your roll+bonuses-10=15) to dodge it.

actually that -10 to dodge is only when they are at pointblank range. beyond 30' there is only -5 to dodge and at 100' and beyond there is no penalty to dodge.

and yes, Jeridu are that lethal. they were created by the old ones to be ultralethal shock troopers after all.

[Tor]

"have six arms and can use them all equally well and simultaneously."

Not "have six arms and can use them all equally well, but only in pairs of 2 at a time"

"Simultaneously" is used in contexts outside of simultaneous attacks, it doesn't always mean what you think it means here.

"he can control three sets of paired weapons at once"

Not he can control three sets of paired weapons in succession.
See the difference?

Any human with paired weapons can control 3 pairs of weapons in succession too: they can drop the previous pairs and pick up new ones.

A jeridu is able to hold all 3 pairs simultaneously. Being able to control multiple weapons at once is not the same thing as being able to attack with them all simultaneously.

Any human is able to wield 2 swords at once. But that doesn't enable them to do twin maneuvers.

If you claim that somehow the phrases that state they CAN "use all of their arms equally well" (ie hexa-dextrous, like ambidextrous, but for 6 instead of 2)

I am unclear as to how this particular parts relates to paired maneuvers. I can only see this as being relevant to removing off-hand penalties (something I only remember being important for paired guns)

"and simultaneously" (meaning at the same time as he uses any number of his other arms) and that they CAN "control three sets of paired weapons" (thats 6 weapons) "at once" (meaning all at the same time, ie simultaneously). Then please explain why you believe these words don't mean what they normally mean.

Being able to control 6 weapons isn't the same as being able to attack with them all at once.

The race needs to explicitly say you can do more than twin strikes for you to be able to do that, like the Xiticix do. Otherwise it is "paired" (2) and limited by standard rules.

>"can use them all equally well and simultaneously."

I can use my left and right arm simultaneously, I'm doing so right now while typing on this keyboard. It's also the only way I can do a chin-up since I'm not strong enough to do it with just 1. This doesn't make me capable of doing a double-punch or twin strike though.

...although since anyone can swing 2 baseball bats at an opponent I'm not sure why you need a special skill for it... I think Palladium should really let anyone use twin strikes (I think that's already the case with guns), but if you lack paired WP you should get a huge strike penalty due to lack of co-ordination, and probably some kind of damage penalty.

>"have the skill of Paired Weapons, and can use it for all six of their arms."

Which means they don't have to choose 1 of 3 sets that it would apply exclusively to. I don't even think this is a special ability, just a reminder of versatility.

>"When using weapons in every arm, the Jeridu basically acts like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once"

Also not necessarily a special ability, merely a reminder that "I don't have to put down my other weapons to use paired techniques".

If any of this is taken to mean special abilities, then we need to bring in some 6-armed bio/cy borgs (or perhaps Death/necromancers) and figure out how to penalize them in similar situations. Are they unable to hold 6 melee weapons? Realistically, you would expect a 6-armed guy holding 2 swords to be able to use those swords more freely if he wasn't holding 4 shields in the other hands since they'd probably get in the way of swings...

as written. Six actions per attack. More than three strikes in an attack costs the autoparry.

Where is the impression that "as written" these guys could do 2 (much less 3) attacks without losing automatic parry coming from? When you initially mentioned this it was "I would play it" indicating a house rule, now you're saying 'as written', which is it?

[Thinyser]

"have six arms and can use them all equally well and simultaneously."

Not "have six arms and can use them all equally well, but only in pairs of 2 at a time"

"Simultaneously" is used in contexts outside of simultaneous attacks, it doesn't always mean what you think it means here.

Simultaneously means "at the same time". In this case it means at they same time they are using their other arms such as typing on 3 keyboards at once. Or Juggling using all 6 arms at once, or attacking with all 6 arms at once, so yes it does always mean "at the same time" the meanings of words don't change because YOU want them to.

"he can control three sets of paired weapons at once"

Not he can control three sets of paired weapons in succession.
See the difference?

Any human with paired weapons can control 3 pairs of weapons in succession too: they can drop the previous pairs and pick up new ones.

A jeridu is able to hold all 3 pairs simultaneously. Being able to control multiple weapons at once is not the same thing as being able to attack with them all simultaneously.

Which is why they specifically tell us that they can use all 6 arms equally well and simultaneously and act as if they control 3 sets of paired weapons AT ONCE. Not one set at a time but all 3 sets AT ONCE. Again you cannot change the meaning of a word or phrase because you want to. Had they said one set of paired weapons at a time then I would agree with you but they did not, they said all 3 sets at once. Huge difference.

Any human is able to wield 2 swords at once. But that doesn't enable them to do twin maneuvers.

Irrelevant, these are not humans they are engineered beings designed and created to be hexadexterous shocktroopers.

If you claim that somehow the phrases that state they CAN "use all of their arms equally well" (ie hexa-dextrous, like ambidextrous, but for 6 instead of 2)

I am unclear as to how this particular parts relates to paired maneuvers. I can only see this as being relevant to removing off-hand penalties (something I only remember being important for paired guns)

It means exactly what it says. They have 6 arms that can be used equally well and all at the same time. So while you use 2 arms to do things like type you cannnot most likely throw a ball equally well with either arm. Jeridu however could pick up a ball with each of their SIX arms and throw them all just as well as you can with your "good" arm. While you might be able to single handedly swing a bat accurately and hit a ball from your good side Jeridu could do this with ALL 6 of their arms at once (ie simultaneously).

"and simultaneously" (meaning at the same time as he uses any number of his other arms) and that they CAN "control three sets of paired weapons" (thats 6 weapons) "at once" (meaning all at the same time, ie simultaneously). Then please explain why you believe these words don't mean what they normally mean.

Being able to control 6 weapons isn't the same as being able to attack with them all at once.

The race needs to explicitly say you can do more than twin strikes for you to be able to do that, like the Xiticix do. Otherwise it is "paired" (2) and limited by standard rules.

No it doesn't. They were written by different authors that explain their ideas in different ways. Both are equally clear you just change the meanings of very very clearly worded phrases to mean something different from what they actually mean.

>"can use them all equally well and simultaneously."

I can use my left and right arm simultaneously, I'm doing so right now while typing on this keyboard. It's also the only way I can do a chin-up since I'm not strong enough to do it with just 1. This doesn't make me capable of doing a double-punch or twin strike though.

But you cannot use them both "equally well" or are you ambidextrous? Furthermore are you a 6 armed being that was created by a super powerful intelligence specifically to be a frontline melee shocktrooper in an ongoing war? No you are not, so comparisons to yourself are not relevant. Heck even comparing the great Bruce Lee to these guys is irrelevant. HE had to train for decades to be able to do what he did, whereas Jeridu all get these abilities no matter what course of training they go through. Even a wizard Jeridu can use all 6 arms equally well and simultaneously and can act as if he is using 3 sets of paired weapons at once. For them it is wired in. There is nothing else to compare them too.

...although since anyone can swing 2 baseball bats at an opponent I'm not sure why you need a special skill for it... I think Palladium should really let anyone use twin strikes (I think that's already the case with guns), but if you lack paired WP you should get a huge strike penalty due to lack of co-ordination, and probably some kind of damage penalty.

I agree. Jeridu however have the extraordinary coordination to strike accurately and equally well with all 6 arms at once.

>"have the skill of Paired Weapons, and can use it for all six of their arms."

Which means they don't have to choose 1 of 3 sets that it would apply exclusively to. I don't even think this is a special ability, just a reminder of versatility.

Taken in context with the next line...

>"When using weapons in every arm, the Jeridu basically acts like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once"

Also not necessarily a special ability, merely a reminder that "I don't have to put down my other weapons to use paired techniques".

It means they can use 6 weapons at once not 1 set then another set then another set. Its not saying they act in any sequence or succession, it says "at once". Again you cannot change the meaning of this phrase. "At once" in this context means simultaneously. They act as if they control three sets of paired weapons simultaneously. Without bill actually taking another sentence to say "What I mean is that they can hit with all 6 weapons with one action, or parry six attacks or attack and parry in any combo adding up to 6, all for a single action" this is as clear as it can be (and certainly much more concise than taking this extra line to spell out something that can be said with "at once").

If any of this is taken to mean special abilities, then we need to bring in some 6-armed bio/cy borgs (or perhaps Death/necromancers) and figure out how to penalize them in similar situations. Are they unable to hold 6 melee weapons? Realistically, you would expect a 6-armed guy holding 2 swords to be able to use those swords more freely if he wasn't holding 4 shields in the other hands since they'd probably get in the way of swings...

Things that add multiple limbs later are not wired for them as the Jeridu are. So overall the comparison is again not relevant. That said its slightly better than comparing them to yourself .
I would have to say that yes the Jeridu would have inherent advantages over a 6 armed cyborg who was at one time a 2 armed human (or similar necro enhancement). While a 2 armed person augmented to have an extra pair or 2 extra pairs of arms might be able to use them in combat it would likely take time to train their brain to control the extra limbs effectively (possibly the purchase of WP paired for each set of additional arms and other penalties too) as their brain was not wired from birth to control more than 2 arms, and even after training their brain they will never be on par with a creature who's born with 6 arms.

[Thinyser]

Greetings and Salutations. First, as a G.M. I have never run for a Jeridu. When the book first came out I suddenly had a whole bunch of players trying to play a Jeridu, and I quickly said no. Not only do I think they're stupidly overpowered, but also way too many people wanting to play this ultra rare race. As such I've actually grown a hatred for the race, and a player would really have to prove him/herself toe before I'd even consider allowing one into my games as a G.M. With that said ...

I can understand that which is why I nerf them a bit... or maybe a lot depending on how you look at it.

1: I'd say, by the rules, they can use all six arms for only one attack/action. With that said, I'd still treat it as three sets of paired weapons. Each set can use one of the Paired Weapons techniques (there are 4 total). Example: A Jeridu Parties/Simul (Set 1), Twin Dual Strikes (also a simultaneous, with Set 2), and attacks two different targets (Set 3). So if something causes you to lose auto-parry, that set loses it (but not the others).

That, to me, seems the most by the book way to run it while keeping track of what the character can and can't do with them.

That seems very reasonable.

2: pblackcrow is not Bill Coffin.

Hmm any idea what his username is then?

Hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

To you as well

[say652]

I'm guessing most of the paired weapons are coming from the new west four armed gunslinger borg.
The borg text has been regurgitated almost word for word.
Jeridu aren't borgs. Jussayin.

[Thinyser]

I'm guessing most of the paired weapons are coming from the new west four armed gunslinger borg.
The borg text has been regurgitated almost word for word.
Jeridu aren't borgs. Jussayin.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here about being regurgitated word for word but you are right that Jeridu are NOT borgs. They are natural 6 arm beings that have equal and simultaneous use of their arms.

Cyborgs are different as I've stated already, they were not born with multiple arms and should not have the same fluency of action with them as a race that is born with them. Thus the Super Slinger Cyborg takes 2 actions to draw and fire 4 pistols (1 action per pair to draw and fire), and they cannot split their attacks against multiple targets.

Jeridu =/= Borgs.
Jeridu > Borgs (when it comes to control of multiple limbs since they are wired to do it from birth) Borgs are much tougher (SDC/MDC wise)

[say652]

In the new west book. It lists a four are Borg frame.
They are trying to take the rules that apply to this borg. And say it applies to all multi limbed creatures.

A Jeridu is born with six arms. Not built to have FOUR arms.

[Tor]

Simultaneously means "at the same time".

I'm well aware of what it means. It doesn't always mean twin-striking abilities though. The ability to use 2 limbs at once wouldn't mean the ability to do a twin strike, for example. You need paired WP to get that. But pair means 2, so it doesn't give more than twin (2) strikes.

it means at they same time they are using their other arms such as typing on 3 keyboards at once.

The ability to use the limbs at the same time does not mean 'under all circumstances' though.

Or Juggling using all 6 arms at once, or attacking with all 6 arms at once, so yes it does always mean "at the same time" the meanings of words don't change because YOU want them to.

I'm not changing the meaning of anything, I'm pointing out that Palladium has used such terminology without necessarily giving the ability to do twin-striking (or better).

A good example of this would be the major abilities of Tentacles (HU2p294) as it's not totally clear whether a level 2 mutant would be "spend 1 attack, hit with 4 tentacles" or "spend 1 attack, hit with 2 tentacles" or "spend 2 attacks, hit with 4 tentacles".

Which is why they specifically tell us that they can use all 6 arms equally well and simultaneously and act as if they control 3 sets of paired weapons AT ONCE.

Controlling 3 distinct sets isn't the same as controlling 1 set.

Not one set at a time but all 3 sets AT ONCE.

Meaning they can hold all 3 pairs at once, not necessarily that the pairings can activate in a combined attack.

Again you cannot change the meaning of a word or phrase because you want to.

I'm not changing anything, I'm pointing out that they're still divided into pairs, which means 2, which means TWIN strikes.

Forget 6, try and make a solid argument for TRIPLET strikes, as a start, before we move on to this totally-rad Sextuplet-Strike ability.

Xiticix Invasion was printed in 1999, on page 70 it gives a 4-armed attack to the standard Warrior (upgraded from RMB) and page 72 lists it for the new Super-Warrior.

Chaos Lands was printed in 2001. With the XI precident of having to specify these abilities and define them having been set, why would CL not do so?

Any human is able to wield 2 swords at once. But that doesn't enable them to do twin maneuvers.

Irrelevant, these are not humans they are engineered beings designed and created to be hexadexterous shocktroopers.

Hexadextrous only means you don't have a favoured hand, just like ambidextrous (wait... shouldn't it be Amhexadextrous...?) means you're not left-handed or right-handed. Basically it just nullifies off-hand penalties when applicable, which is rare.

Ambidextrousness does not inherently give people paired weapons. Nor does it impact them in any way, except to offset off-hand penalties, far as I know.

Palladium has a term called a twin strike (also called a dual strike) which you attain via paired weapon skills. Twin and Pair both refer to the number 2. No word indicating a set of more than 2 (be it 3 or 6) is introduced in the Jeridu, so no indication is made of being able to make a sextuplet strike.

They were written by different authors that explain their ideas in different ways. Both are equally clear you just change the meanings of very very clearly worded phrases to mean something different from what they actually mean.

In no way are Chaos Lands and Xiticix Invasion "equally clear". XI explicitly tells us that quadruple strikes can be done, CL does not tell us anything like that, this is a conclusion you're inferring from how you interpret the text.

These phrases are not clearly worded because Palladium does not always use 'simultaneous' to mean "in one attack".

An example of this in Juicer Uprising page 78 "a double blast (both weapons firing simultaneously) counts as two melee attacks" under the Laser and Particle Beam guns.

"If a pair of weapons is aimed at the same target simultaneously the strike counts as two melee attacks".

Now, if you happen to have paired weapons, that allows you to do dual/twin strikes (2 attacks, 1 action) but that's it, no more. Otherwise you're talking about something beyond pair, and you wouldn't even use the term pair.

Some other uses of "simultaneously" to chew on:
SA2p181 (SLAS) "a multi-faceted laser system that could strike up to ten different targets simultaneously" (context merely means within the same melee ROUND, not attack)

CWCp136 (Abolisher Auto-Cannons) "it can train its other four cannons on two to four different targets simultaneously" .. "it can engage the enemy from all sides simultaneously"

But you cannot use them both "equally well" or are you ambidextrous?

This is irrelevant to the discussion. Ambidextrous limbs do not give you paired WP or twin striking capabilities. Please stop citing this, it is off-topic.

If you roll up a mutant from HU and give them the 'ambidextrous' trait, it just gives them an extra attack and some bonuses (which appear to be incorporated into the Jeridu's stats already) it doesn't give paired WP or twin striking, you still need the skills for that. Unless you get it via Lone Star, PW is included there, so it varies. Unless it says you get it, you don't. Either way, the only relation this can have is the cause of PW. Knowing the cause is irrelevant, we know Jeridu have PW, that's all that matters.

Ambidextrousness (or hexadextrousness) is never mentioned as imparting any kind of enhancement to paired WP skills, I don't see why it is being brought up.

a wizard Jeridu can use all 6 arms equally well and simultaneously and can act as if he is using 3 sets of paired weapons at once.

Yes, 3 sets of 2, not 1 set of 6. The concept of pairing would be utterly irrelevant if it were 1 combined set of 6.

Jeridu however have the extraordinary coordination to strike .. with all 6 arms at once.

This is never stated anywhere in Chaos Lands.

It means they can use 6 weapons at once not 1 set then another set then another set.

Using 6 weapons at once at minimum means holding them. It doesn't mean you can strike with them all while spending only one action. Paired WP only imparts a twin strike maneuver, it does not impart a triplet or sextuplet strike maneuver. Pair means 2.

Its not saying they act in any sequence or succession, it says "at once".

Using/wielding at once != swinging at once.

you cannot change the meaning of this phrase. "At once" in this context means simultaneously.

This is not what I'm directing my criticism at, rather it is the assumption that this somehow imparts an ability to do more than a twin strike when it is merely a flexible set of options for twin strikes.

They act as if they control three sets of paired weapons simultaneously.

A cyborg with 2 pair extra arms who selects the paired weapon skill thrice can also do this.

The notation for the Jeridu simply means they don't need to spend additional skill selections to gain those options.

Without bill actually taking another sentence to say "What I mean is that they can hit with all 6 weapons with one action, or parry six attacks or attack and parry in any combo adding up to 6, all for a single action" this is as clear as it can be (and certainly much more concise than taking this extra line to spell out something that can be said with "at once").

not wired for them as the Jeridu are.

Xiticix explicitly have special wiring that allows these maneuvers, Jeridu are not listed as having such wiring.

[say652]

I will give Tor this, as an ambidextrous person. I shoot righty, kendo righty. Bowling, Archery, sword and shield are all left handed activities. While capable of fighting Florentine I feel the duel weapons sacrifice power.
But I am not a six armed ultra rare creature with nearly supernatural coordination.

Six arms=6 actions per attack. Or three attacks and an autoparry.

[Prysus]

Hmm any idea what his username is then

Greetings and Salutations. To the best of my knowledge his username was Bill Coffin (that's typical for staffers, and even some freelancers). I can even find this thread where someone quotes him:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=110962

Keep in mind, he parted ways with Palladium back in 2002 (before I even joined the boards myself). As far as I'm aware he no longer visits these boards or has a username. Also, the moderators prune the message boards from time to time to clear up old clutter and make room for new topics. Since it's been over a decade since his departure, I believe (but cannot say with absolute certainty) all his old posts have been pruned as a result of thread inactivity. That's why you can't find him. If you go back to the oldest page in the PF forum you'll notice it's all after his departure.

If you really want to get his opinion, you might be able to find him over on Facebook. I know I've seen him make the occasional post over on the Unofficial Palladium page (hosted by jaymz).

All right, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Thinyser]

... <bunch of stuff Thinyser is sorry he took the time to read>...

I'll not debate with someone who plays word games by changing the meanings. That means I'll not debate with you Tor. From reading your posts (and having people PM me telling me this is your MO and not to waste my time) I have seen that you have a history of changing meaning of words from what is accepted as the common and intended meaning to something of your own choosing to fit your arguments. I'll not play that game. Good day.

[Alrik Vas]

Seems fair if they take wp paired weapons multiple times. mastering their racial death blender technique should take time, eh?

[Thinyser]

Seems fair if they take wp paired weapons multiple times. mastering their racial death blender technique should take time, eh?

Possibly, but they get it as a racial ability from character creation so it would seem that they already have enough mastery to be able to use all of their hands equally well and simultaneously and during combat act as if they have 3 sets of paired weapons.

They do get an extra 2 attacks at level 4 so they do become "more" proficient at using their arms in combat as they become more experienced. And they do gain more attacks depending on which HtH style they chose. So just like any character they grow better with experience but if you look at it from the perspective that all of their hands were on the same level of ability (they can use them all "equally well") and then they gain an attack then all of the hands are now better, though still equal to each other. This actually makes the most sense if you say they can use all 6 arms as one attack. If you were to split it up into pairs and say one set of arms gets an extra attack (WP paired weapons making it a twin strike, parry & simul, etc) but the others are left behind then they are not used "equally well" any more.

[Dog_O_War]

Thus far, you seem to have a grasp on the mechanics of this Thinyser.

Accordingly, the only thing I will point out here is that you are to treat them like "three sets of paired weapons".

That would be; if you parry with one weapon and simultaneous-attack with the other, that does not preclude you from dual-simultaneous striking with the other two sets.

However, the wording of dual-simultaneous attacks does not get specific when it comes to the pair of weapons (or even arms) being used; it states only that if you perform a dual-simultaneous strike against a target, that you cannot parry the next attack. It doesn't say "but only with that set of paired weapons"; it contains no such clauses, so if you choose to parry with one weapon and strike with 4/5 arms, you leave yourself open for the next attack against you. Without leaving yourself open (re: retaining your parry), you could use one arm from each of the sets with no ill effects.

[eliakon]

Sorry to be late to the conversation. But here is my two cents worth.
The Jedridu can attack pick any two limbs to use as a paired weapon attack. The other limbs super coordination I roll into that bonus APM that they get, and I allow limbs not being used to attack to always be used to parry. I would not allow a person to use 6 swords and make an attack with all six. I WOULD let them make an attack with 2, then parry with the other 4.

[Thinyser]

Thus far, you seem to have a grasp on the mechanics of this Thinyser.

Accordingly, the only thing I will point out here is that you are to treat them like "three sets of paired weapons".

That would be; if you parry with one weapon and simultaneous-attack with the other, that does not preclude you from dual-simultaneous striking with the other two sets.

However, the wording of dual-simultaneous attacks does not get specific when it comes to the pair of weapons (or even arms) being used; it states only that if you perform a dual-simultaneous strike against a target, that you cannot parry the next attack. It doesn't say "but only with that set of paired weapons"; it contains no such clauses, so if you choose to parry with one weapon and strike with 4/5 arms, you leave yourself open for the next attack against you. Without leaving yourself open (re: retaining your parry), you could use one arm from each of the sets with no ill effects.

What I don't understand is why people think that parrying with one hand while attacking with the other negates the ability to parry the next attack.

You can autoparry even when you have NO attacks left for the round. Parry a single attack all you want you are never using an action nor do you need an action to autoparry a single attack. Even if you have paired weapons and parry+simul you have used your next attack but not your next parry since parrying doesn't use an action. That is as long as you have a HtH style.

Multiple parries get a little more complex but #4 ability under WP Paired weapons says you can parry 2 attackers at once but it does not say that this uses an action so I treat it that you can autoparry 2 at once. Leaving your # of attacks untouched.

So long as all a Jeridu does is parry they can autoparry 6 attacks at once and not use any actions. They could also autoparry 2 attacks with one set of arms while simul striking with the other 4 as one action (since it uses an action to simul) the next incoming attack they could do the same thing, rinse repeat until the opponent is out of attacks then you go on the offensive (assuming your opponent lives long enough to run out of actions).

It would go like this.
O1=Opponent #1
O2=Opponent #2
J=Jeridu

J: wins initiative but withholds action.
O1: attacks
O2: attacks
J: Parries both and simul double strikes each O1 & O2 (this uses his 1st attack for the round)
O1: attacks
O2: attacks
J: Parries both and simul double strikes each O1 & O2 (this uses his 2nd attack for the round)
O1: attacks
O2: attacks
J: Parries both and simul double strikes each O1 & O2 (this uses his 3rd attack for the round)
O1: attacks
O2: attacks
J: Parries both and simul double strikes each O1 & O2 (this uses his 4th attack for the round)
O1: attacks
O2: attacks
J: Parries both and simul double strikes each O1 & O2 (this uses his 5th attack for the round)
O1 dies and O2 is now out of attacks
J: switches to attack mode and with his 6th attack of the round strikes with all 6 arms at O2 who even though he is out of attacks has the chance to parry one of the 6 incoming strikes. O2 successfully parries but the other 5 strikes hit home and kill him. Now because he is a jeridu he probably has a few more actions left and goes after some more opponents.

[Thinyser]

Sorry to be late to the conversation. But here is my two cents worth.
The Jedridu can attack pick any two limbs to use as a paired weapon attack. The other limbs super coordination I roll into that bonus APM that they get, and I allow limbs not being used to attack to always be used to parry. I would not allow a person to use 6 swords and make an attack with all six. I WOULD let them make an attack with 2, then parry with the other 4.

That's exactly how I run them, but I don't think it's canon. I nerf them that way on purpose because it gets super crazy otherwise.

[Tor]

I'll not debate with someone who plays word games by changing the meanings.

Not what I'm doing here, you're avoiding the argument.

I provided examples of how Palladium uses "simultaneously" in contexts outside of the narrow definition you are insisting applies.

You are ignoring evidence and instead avoiding a decent rebuttal by making an ad hominem attack against me, a false one.

From reading your posts (and having people PM me telling me this is your MO and not to waste my time) I have seen that you have a history of changing meaning of words from what is accepted as the common and intended meaning to something of your own choosing to fit your arguments.

Short story: you aren't actually reading this thread and shouldn't have replied at all if you were just going to flame me. I suggest you listen less to liars whispering in your ear, I have refuted those accusations before.

What I don't understand is why people think that parrying with one hand while attacking with the other negates the ability to parry the next attack.

You can autoparry even when you have NO attacks left for the round. Parry a single attack all you want you are never using an action nor do you need an action to autoparry a single attack. Even if you have paired weapons and parry+simul you have used your next attack but not your next parry since parrying doesn't use an action. That is as long as you have a HtH style.

We think it does this because that's what the book says. Using a simultaneous strike/parry combination with paired weapons removes your ability to parry the next attack, including nullifying automatic parries.

[Prysus]

What I don't understand is why people think that parrying with one hand while attacking with the other negates the ability to parry the next attack.

You can autoparry even when you have NO attacks left for the round. Parry a single attack all you want you are never using an action nor do you need an action to autoparry a single attack. Even if you have paired weapons and parry+simul you have used your next attack but not your next parry since parrying doesn't use an action. That is as long as you have a HtH style.

We think it does this because that's what the book says. Using a simultaneous strike/parry combination with paired weapons removes your ability to parry the next attack, including nullifying automatic parries.

Greetings and Salutations. Let me just say ... you're both wrong.

Thinyser: Dog_O_War didn't say parry/simultaneous attack cost you auto-parry. What he said was that "dual-simultaneous attacks" cost you an auto-parry, and it does. In PF2, this is found on page 46, under the "Paired Weapons" description. By the rules, he is also correct. Since the book says you lose auto-parry without consideration for more than 2 arms, as written it would mean that if dual simultaneous strike with one set (only 2 of the 6), it means that the "character" loses auto-parry for ALL sets. More a technicality than I believe intent, but it's definitely by the rules.

Tor: You're just wrong. The book doesn't say that. Try fact checking. If you can provide a book quote that confirms your story, I'll admit I'm wrong, though I don't imagine that being the case.

And since I'm here ...

I provided examples of how Palladium uses "simultaneously" in contexts outside of the narrow definition you are insisting applies.

Not really. And you DEFINITELY have not provided any examples of Palladium using "paired weapons" to mean "holding two weapons but unable to use them at the same time or use any of the techniques provided by 'paired weapons'" like you're trying to claim is the case here.

I also checked your Xiticix Invasion book. I find it hilarious that you'd even use that to support your claim, since if we look at the section it's under "Two-Handed Paired Weapon Attack" to describe using four arms at the same time (including attacking with all four at the same time). This runs completely contrary to your arguement "Paired Weapons" only means two, since the example you gave shows Palladium using it to mean "four."

I will agree that "pair" means two. And simple math tells us that three sets of two (3x2) is six. So just a different way to say 6 at once. Since it also discusses "paired weapons" (same as with the Xiticix), until you can show Palladium using "Paired Weapons" to mean "staring at both hands at the same time" or "typing on the computer with both hands but unable to fight using both" or "hold two weapons but unable to fight with both of them like with Paired Weapons even though we just said this is Paired Weapons" or something similar ... you're just making stuff up.

As for your examples, I'll address all three of them, since none of them mean what you're trying to claim ...

1: HU2 Tentacles. It mentions striking with several of them "simultaneously." Since damage is only rolled once depending on the number that hits, this further shows it is indeed considered simultaneously. If it was all under sepearte actions, then damage would be rolled after each attack, and not all together as the book tells you to do. As the section never mentions "paired weapons" it doesn't have any bearing on that mechanic. However, all it does tell us is that Palladium used "simultaneously" to mean at the same time.

2:

Some other uses of "simultaneously" to chew on:
SA2p181 (SLAS) "a multi-faceted laser system that could strike up to ten different targets simultaneously" (context merely means within the same melee ROUND, not attack)

The quote is accurate, but your extrapolation upon it is not in the book. The closest we get is the quote: "Up to ten attacks per melee" and then changes subject. It does not say "per melee round" despite your claim. It could mean "per melee attack" as well. Furthermore, even if (without ever saying it) it did mean "melee round," there's no wording on how often the automated system can attack. It might only be one attack per melee round. There's no proof here that says Palladium said "simultaneously" without actually meaning simultaneously except your wild and unsupported claims.

3:

CWCp136 (Abolisher Auto-Cannons) "it can train its other four cannons on two to four different targets simultaneously" .. "it can engage the enemy from all sides simultaneously"

Nothing in the text that I can find suggesting the text, as written, doesn't mean simlutaneously just like the book says. Yup, a waste of time just like the other ones, but I do like to be thorough and fact check before claiming someone is wrong.

If you want to try and make your case, providing random quotes that don't support your side of the argument doesn't help. Just randomly searching books for "simultaneous" isn't the way to go. Just my advice. I'm not likely to respond again as I agree it's a waste of time (though if something truly intelligent is said I might take the time, but again ... not expecting that to be the case). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

Using a simultaneous strike/parry combination with paired weapons removes your ability to parry the next attack, including nullifying automatic parries.

You're just wrong. The book doesn't say that. Try fact checking. If you can provide a book quote that confirms your story, I'll admit I'm wrong, though I don't imagine that being the case.

I concede I am wrong, you're right, it only says that about dual/twin strikes. For some reason I mistakenly remembered this to apply to all paired WP maneuvers.

It sort of does replace the automatic parry in 1-on-1 fights (prob why I filed it away like that) but retaining the auto-parry with simul str+par and not retaining it when doing twin-strike is definitely a major distinction in group battles.

We don't fact-check what we think we know, that's why I'm glad to be corrected regarding false assumptions.

Now that you got me re-reading this, in addition to losing auto-parry, it sounds like twin-striking also removes the option to spend an action to parry. It says you can dodge but that costs an action (possibly negating automatic dodges? unclear on that).

Other responses like entangle/automatic body-flip aren't discussed though... does that mean you can do them?

I know you can entangle with certain weapons, not sure if you can do it with all of them though, like the ones that don't provide explicit entangle bonuses. The only weapon I explicitly know you can body-flip with is the trident (via Rifts Underseas) not sure if you can do body flips with weapons in your hand otherwise though... presumably anyone with a weapon kata (N&SS) could do it, but not sure on standard HtH forms from other games.

And since I'm here ...

I provided examples of how Palladium uses "simultaneously" in contexts outside of the narrow definition you are insisting applies.

Not really.

Yes, I did, here they are again:
*SA2p181 (SLAS) "a multi-faceted laser system that could strike up to ten different targets simultaneously" (context merely means within the same melee ROUND, not attack)
*CWCp136 (Abolisher Auto-Cannons) "it can train its other four cannons on two to four different targets simultaneously" .. "it can engage the enemy from all sides simultaneously"
*JUp78 "a double blast (both weapons firing simultaneously) counts as two melee attacks" under the Laser and Particle Beam guns. If a pair of weapons is aimed at the same target simultaneously the strike counts as two melee attacks".

All three examples use 'simultaneously' in a context other than "delivered within the same melee attack" which is how I believe the opposition was saying we must interpret it.

I can readily admit that 'simultaneously' in MOST contexts does indeed mean 'within the same action', but it doesn't ALWAYS mean that, so we have no reason to assume that by default. Especially since that interpretation conflicts directly with how the paired WP skill works, in that it only delivers twin strikes, not septuplet strikes.

you DEFINITELY have not provided any examples of Palladium using "paired weapons" to mean "holding two weapons but unable to use them at the same time or use any of the techniques provided by 'paired weapons'" like you're trying to claim is the case here.

Straw sure is light and catches fire easily. No Pry that isn't anywhere near my claim. Do your research

My claim is that paired weapons means you can perform twin strikes. A maximum of two. It doesn't allow more than that, not 3, not 6, no matter how many pairs you're wielding, because the skill does not describe those maneuvers.

if we look at the section it's under "Two-Handed Paired Weapon Attack" to describe using four arms at the same time (including attacking with all four at the same time). This runs completely contrary to your arguement "Paired Weapons" only means two, since the example you gave shows Palladium using it to mean "four."

This is presented among a list of unique ability that only the Xiticix have, not something available to all 4-armed beings. No such ability was given to Bio-Borgs, Cyborgs, Necromancers, Rahu-Men, etc. Not even if they had paired weapons.

The "two-handed paired weapon attack" is clearly referring to attacking with 2 arms (doing a twin strike) but not losing the auto-parry since the other 2 arms can still parry. This is not something any 4-armed being with paired weapons can do, it is an ability unique to the Xiticix. You can see this on page 68 because it's under the bold heading "special combat movies" with the disclaimer that it is due to their 340 degree vision and antennae sensor abilities. The Jeridu don't have those advantages so there's no basis for assuming they could duplicate these feats, Xiticix are better.

The 2HPW term is not referring to the four-handed attack. This is incredibly clear on page 70 where a distinction is made between the two terms:

"The Two-Handed Paired Weapon Attack is a common fighting tactic used by Warriors (the four-handed attack is only used in desperation"

If you look beyond the basic warrior to page 72, under the Super-Warrior, an even more clear distinction is made between "Two-Handed Paired Weapon Attack" and "Four-Handed Paired Weapon Attack".'

I will concede (though you didn't point this out yet) that 'paired' is still used, although the book does drop the adjective in the description and just says "four-armed attack" later, but parried IS still there...

That aside, this is still presented as a unique ability, and has explicit wording allowing these advanced maneuvers which the Jeridu lack. Even in the Super-Warrior's exceptional case though, it is interesting to note that unlike their 4-arm attack option (which they can do on their term) they are limited to 1 or 2 limbs when countering with a simultaneous attack.

So just a different way to say 6 at once.

Being able to hold 6 things at once isn't the same as being able to attack with them all at once. Stage Magicians in HU can juggle a huge amount of thrown weapons but can't throw them simultaneously. They're still 'using' them though.

Since it also discusses "paired weapons" (same as with the Xiticix)

Xiticix explicitly discuss 4-handed striking maneuvers, and not even the 6-armed ones can do a 6-armed attack.

until you can show Palladium using "Paired Weapons" to mean "staring at both hands at the same time" or "typing on the computer with both hands but unable to fight using both" or "hold two weapons but unable to fight with both of them like with Paired Weapons even though we just said this is Paired Weapons" or something similar ... you're just making stuff up.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. I believe you're reading what I said out of context and applying some strange meaning to it.

Being able to wield multiple weapons simultaneously is not the same as being able to coordinate them into a simultaneous attack. That's what I was expressing. A lot of robots wield a lot of weapons simultaneously too, as do cyborgs. They give you added options with your melee attacks without having to put down your old weapons and pick up new ones. It allows you to maintain your defense in spite of multiple disarmings or entanglements. I'm saying that the Jeridu can be read as merely acknowledging this reality of wields-many-things and not giving some unique better-than-Super-Xiticix ability.

I mean heck, look at the art of the Jeridu, see any pictures of them thrusting all 6 knives simultaneously? Nope, you see them holding most of them in defensive positions.

Tentacles mentions striking with several of them "simultaneously." Since damage is only rolled once depending on the number that hits, this further shows it is indeed considered simultaneously. However, all it does tell us is that Palladium used "simultaneously" to mean at the same time.

You're mixing up the examples and what i was using them for. The aforementioned three world books from Rifts were being used to give "simultaneous" context outside of 1-action. Tentacles is an example I brought up regarding cost.

Although it is true that Tentacles can do a combined strike, as you were less explicit about: the 'number that hit' depend on how many strike rolls succeed, you roll once per pair, so at most a twin strike is done, like with paired WP.

I do not agree that you roll damage 'only once'. Sure, it does say "two pair 4d6" but that's only totalling things up, because it says that the damage is cumulative.

If you were attacking with 2 pairs of tentacles and rolled a natural 20 for the first pair and a non-critical strike for the second pair, you would only double the initial 2d6, not the damage of the second pair.

The reason I brought up Tentacles was to discuss melee action cost. The power does not make it clear how many attacks you have to spend to attack with 2 pairs of tentacles. It could be 1 or 2.

your extrapolation upon it is not in the book.
The closest we get is the quote: "Up to ten attacks per melee" and then changes subject.
It does not say "per melee round" despite your claim.
It could mean "per melee attack" as well.

Seriously? You're arguing this? Thank you, this is making me feel a lot better after my strike/parry+autoparry slip.

"Melee" means "melee round", this is pretty common-sense knowledge I figure, but now I feel compelled to find a book example for you so as to convey how much chaos it would create if an unspecified 'melee' were interpretable as 'melee attack' instead.

Since PF is the central setting of discussion, please check out the level 1 wizard spells on page 189. Cloud of Smoke's duration uses "melee rounds" whereas Death Trance uses "10 melees" (the term "rounds" is absent). Death Trance also explicitly says that 10 melees are 2.5 minutes, so "melees" clearly means "melee rounds". Convinced?

If you can provide an example where "melee" on its own has been used to indicate action or attack, I will be willing to continue this line of discussion.

Furthermore, even if (without ever saying it) it did mean "melee round," there's no wording on how often the automated system can attack. It might only be one attack per melee round. There's no proof here that says Palladium said "simultaneously" without actually meaning simultaneously except your wild and unsupported claims.

"Try fact checking" applies to both of us in this thread Prysus

JUp77 clearly says in the introduction (second paragraph, last sentence) "the computer with its two sets of weapons and eight attacks per melee".
JUp78 reiterates this under Weapon Systems 5 (Response Computer System) saying "Comptuer Attacks per Melee: Eight!".

So no, it does clearly say how often it can attack (8 times) and it could not possibly be 1 attack per round, unless 1 attack was all it took to annihilate a threat in which case I suppose it wouldn't keep going.

"it can train its other four cannons on two to four different targets simultaneously"
"it can engage the enemy from all sides simultaneously"

Nothing in the text that I can find suggesting the text, as written, doesn't mean simlutaneously just like the book says.

I'm not sure what you're saying here Prysus, can you rephrase please?

To engage the enemy presumably means to fire upon them, but this system spends 1 attack per shot.

At most, it can shoot twice in 1 go (spending 2 actions, like with a power punch). When that is done, it is only when they are trained on the same target.

So the system in no way indicates the ability to fire on multiple opponents at once. No, not even the coolness that can sometimes be done with leap attacks or paired weapons where you hit 2 opponents in attack, the RCS can't even do that spending 2 attacks, it has to use its actions in a normal sequence. It rolls its own initiative and everything.

The computer can "track and attack two targets simultaneously" but it isn't given the ability to split shots, so 'simultaneously' in this context clearly means "within the same melee round" not "the same melee action".

providing random quotes that don't support your side of the argument doesn't help.

These quotes are not random, I chose them because they prove a particular point, that 'simultaneously' does not have a single fixed meaning, which is the impression I believe my opposition is attempting to convey.

It is not exclusively used to mean 'in the same instant' or 'in the same action' but it can also mean 'within the same melee round' or possibly other brief periods of time.

Heck, while we're on that, how often are dual/twin strikes called 'simultaneous' hits anyway? Occasionally, but not regularly, probably to avoid confusion with the "sacrifice my defense to bypass yours" maneuver more commonly associated with the term.

Your calling my selections 'random' is wrong, and I believe you know it to be a lie, it is very clear how they illustrate a different application of the adjective 'simultaneously' compared to other uses.

Just randomly searching books for "simultaneous" isn't the way to go. Just my advice.

[/quote]I didn't just look for the term, I looked for it being used in a way contrary to the way my opposition was claiming it meant.

By finding it being used in other ways, I disprove the idea that we should assume it MUST mean what the other person thinks it must mean.

I am illustrating that Palladium uses the term in a broad fashion and so we require further context to know what it means in the case of the Jeridu.

The Jeridu class provides no context saying 'spend 1 attack, stab 6 daggers into an Ogre's jugular', so lacking that, there is no reason to think they can.

[Thinyser]

If you have the Rahuman Martial artist article in rifter, it has rules for taking multiple paired weapons for multiple limbs.

Thats not official canon but thanks for the reference anyhow.

I PM'ed Bill Coffin on Facebook but since I'm not friends with him it goes to his "other" box and he may not see it, or take the time to respond to it even if he does. I guess his answer, if he chooses to give one, would not be canon either but since it would be coming from the author I hope it would end the discussion.

[say652]

I wish you the best. It seems the nerfin posse has swarmed your post.

Any who six arms equals six actions per attack.
Any one saying different is just a nerfherder trying to herd you into nerftopia for some un fun psuedo rules lawyer craptastic gaming. True story.

[Thinyser]

I wish you the best. It seems the nerfin posse has swarmed your post.

Any who six arms equals six actions per attack.
Any one saying different is just a nerfherder trying to herd you into nerftopia for some un fun psuedo rules lawyer craptastic gaming. True story.

You sound just like one of the dudes in my group, lol I can hear what you wrote in his voice.

[say652]

*starts to speak, struck down by a NERF arrow from an unseen assassin*

"Heed my words, beware the nerfherders" our hero falls limp in an badly acted overly dramatic death scene. Akin to Paul Rueben in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[Alrik Vas]

Seems fair if they take wp paired weapons multiple times. mastering their racial death blender technique should take time, eh?

Possibly, but they get it as a racial ability from character creation so it would seem that they already have enough mastery to be able to use all of their hands equally well and simultaneously and during combat act as if they have 3 sets of paired weapons.

They do get an extra 2 attacks at level 4 so they do become "more" proficient at using their arms in combat as they become more experienced. And they do gain more attacks depending on which HtH style they chose. So just like any character they grow better with experience but if you look at it from the perspective that all of their hands were on the same level of ability (they can use them all "equally well") and then they gain an attack then all of the hands are now better, though still equal to each other. This actually makes the most sense if you say they can use all 6 arms as one attack. If you were to split it up into pairs and say one set of arms gets an extra attack (WP paired weapons making it a twin strike, parry & simul, etc) but the others are left behind then they are not used "equally well" any more.

All totally fair. I just think that the blender should be a bit more costly, that's all. Yeah, i allow crap like adding SN PS punch and damage bonus to melee weapons, but even I gotta look at something and be like...

...earn this one.

[Thinyser]

Seems fair if they take wp paired weapons multiple times. mastering their racial death blender technique should take time, eh?

Possibly, but they get it as a racial ability from character creation so it would seem that they already have enough mastery to be able to use all of their hands equally well and simultaneously and during combat act as if they have 3 sets of paired weapons.

They do get an extra 2 attacks at level 4 so they do become "more" proficient at using their arms in combat as they become more experienced. And they do gain more attacks depending on which HtH style they chose. So just like any character they grow better with experience but if you look at it from the perspective that all of their hands were on the same level of ability (they can use them all "equally well") and then they gain an attack then all of the hands are now better, though still equal to each other. This actually makes the most sense if you say they can use all 6 arms as one attack. If you were to split it up into pairs and say one set of arms gets an extra attack (WP paired weapons making it a twin strike, parry & simul, etc) but the others are left behind then they are not used "equally well" any more.

All totally fair. I just think that the blender should be a bit more costly, that's all. Yeah, i allow crap like adding SN PS punch and damage bonus to melee weapons, but even I gotta look at something and be like...

...earn this one.

and I realize I made a mistake, they get 4 attacks added at level 4.

[eliakon]

I wish you the best. It seems the nerfin posse has swarmed your post.

Any who six arms equals six actions per attack.
Any one saying different is just a nerfherder trying to herd you into nerftopia for some un fun psuedo rules lawyer craptastic gaming. True story.

No need to insult all those who have differing views there. Just as 'muchkin' is relative so is 'nerf'. Especially when your applying the statement to something nebulous that (due to the length of the thread).

[eliakon]

So in their write up it states "The Jeridu have six arms and can use them all equally well and simultaneously." and also "All Jeridu automatically have the skill of Paired Weapons, and can use it for all six of their arms. When using weapons in every arm, the Jeridu basically acts like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once. This makes these people utterly lethal in close combat."
So as we all agree (or maybe not, but for the purpose of this thread we will agree) that with paired weapons you can parry an incoming melee attack while using your other weapon to simul attack your attacker, using one action.

Sure, that's a fair baseline

If you have 6 arms that you can use "equally well and simultaneously" it would make sense that it only takes 1 weapon to parry that incoming attack and thus you could simul attack with the other 5 (1 pair of arms does a parry & simul strike and the other 2 pairs do simul double strikes), all for one action.

Not exactly. It just says that you have three sets of paired weapons. So, logically that would mean that you can use one of those three pairs to do a pary/simul. the other pairs are not a part of this.

Extending the debate, using the paired weapon rules with 6 weapons, could I attack 6 different targets (or any number smaller than 6 some of them getting struck multiple times) using only one action?

No, you have three sets of paired weapons, not one set of sextupled weapons. There is a difference.

Note: This is NOT how I run my game, but by the book it seems that's the literal RAW.

I tone it down and say that they get the normal paired wep ability to parry and simul, do double strikes, and all that, but that its the extra attacks the race gets at 1st and 4th level that account for the extra arm useage. Even then they are pretty insane.

I'm just wondering if this is how you interpret the RAW and if you would run them that way or not?

EDIT: Before anybody asks the Jeridu are in Land of the Damned 1, p.69.

This is pretty much how I would run it myself.
I would allow, three simuls against three targets, or allow each pair to add two more defenders for parry. (so if your just using normal parries and attacks a Jeridu can melee 6 people safely, instead of the normal 2-3 maximum.

[Thinyser]

So in their write up it states "The Jeridu have six arms and can use them all equally well and simultaneously." and also "All Jeridu automatically have the skill of Paired Weapons, and can use it for all six of their arms. When using weapons in every arm, the Jeridu basically acts like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once. This makes these people utterly lethal in close combat."
So as we all agree (or maybe not, but for the purpose of this thread we will agree) that with paired weapons you can parry an incoming melee attack while using your other weapon to simul attack your attacker, using one action.

Sure, that's a fair baseline

If you have 6 arms that you can use "equally well and simultaneously" it would make sense that it only takes 1 weapon to parry that incoming attack and thus you could simul attack with the other 5 (1 pair of arms does a parry & simul strike and the other 2 pairs do simul double strikes), all for one action.

Not exactly. It just says that you have three sets of paired weapons. So, logically that would mean that you can use one of those three pairs to do a pary/simul. the other pairs are not a part of this.

It does say 3 sets of paired weapons at once. The key being "at once". Not one set at a time, not in succession but at once meaning all at the same time, or in concert. If you have 3 warriors that all have paired weapons and they all attack on the same initiative then you have 3 sets of paired weapons working at once. Jeridu are like 3 warriors all using paired weapons that always get the same initiative and since its not 3 separate minds they can internally coordinate attacks.

Extending the debate, using the paired weapon rules with 6 weapons, could I attack 6 different targets (or any number smaller than 6 some of them getting struck multiple times) using only one action?

No, you have three sets of paired weapons, not one set of sextupled weapons. There is a difference.

to me its very clear that the statements that they can use all their hands "equally well and simultaneously" and that they get paired weapons "and can use it for all 6 of their arms" and that they "act like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once" means they can use all 6 arms at the same time to attack as the incredibly coordinated utterly lethal shock troops they were designed to be.

Note: This is NOT how I run my game, but by the book it seems that's the literal RAW.

I tone it down and say that they get the normal paired wep ability to parry and simul, do double strikes, and all that, but that its the extra attacks the race gets at 1st and 4th level that account for the extra arm useage. Even then they are pretty insane.

I'm just wondering if this is how you interpret the RAW and if you would run them that way or not?

EDIT: Before anybody asks the Jeridu are in Land of the Damned 1, p.69.

This is pretty much how I would run it myself.
I would allow, three simuls against three targets, or allow each pair to add two more defenders for parry. (so if your just using normal parries and attacks a Jeridu can melee 6 people safely, instead of the normal 2-3 maximum.

So if you can simul three are you able to parry/simul them? Are you able to twin strike simul them (and receive damage yourself)? If you only parry you could parry 6 attacks and not use any simul attacks then use your attacks on your normal turn to return twin strikes on all 6 targets? Like 3 warriors who have paired weapons can auto parry 2 attacks each then when its their turn could twin strike 2 seperate (6 total targets)? Because that would be sextupled weapons if one Jeridu did it...

[eliakon]

So in their write up it states "The Jeridu have six arms and can use them all equally well and simultaneously." and also "All Jeridu automatically have the skill of Paired Weapons, and can use it for all six of their arms. When using weapons in every arm, the Jeridu basically acts like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once. This makes these people utterly lethal in close combat."
So as we all agree (or maybe not, but for the purpose of this thread we will agree) that with paired weapons you can parry an incoming melee attack while using your other weapon to simul attack your attacker, using one action.

Sure, that's a fair baseline

If you have 6 arms that you can use "equally well and simultaneously" it would make sense that it only takes 1 weapon to parry that incoming attack and thus you could simul attack with the other 5 (1 pair of arms does a parry & simul strike and the other 2 pairs do simul double strikes), all for one action.

Not exactly. It just says that you have three sets of paired weapons. So, logically that would mean that you can use one of those three pairs to do a pary/simul. the other pairs are not a part of this.

It does say 3 sets of paired weapons at once. The key being "at once". Not one set at a time, not in succession but at once meaning all at the same time, or in concert. If you have 3 warriors that all have paired weapons and they all attack on the same initiative then you have 3 sets of paired weapons working at once. Jeridu are like 3 warriors all using paired weapons that always get the same initiative and since its not 3 separate minds they can internally coordinate attacks.

Maybe. That's not what it says though. It says 3 sets of paired weapons. Set one does a parry/attack that's cool. But the second and third set are different pairs, they are doing a different response. At least that's how I see it.

Extending the debate, using the paired weapon rules with 6 weapons, could I attack 6 different targets (or any number smaller than 6 some of them getting struck multiple times) using only one action?

No, you have three sets of paired weapons, not one set of sextupled weapons. There is a difference.

to me its very clear that the statements that they can use all their hands "equally well and simultaneously" and that they get paired weapons "and can use it for all 6 of their arms" and that they "act like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once" means they can use all 6 arms at the same time to attack as the incredibly coordinated utterly lethal shock troops they were designed to be.

That's your option. I am saying that I do not see that same wording as coming to that conclusion. I am saying that I see it as...three sets of 2 not one set of 6. And yes there is a difference.

Note: This is NOT how I run my game, but by the book it seems that's the literal RAW.

I tone it down and say that they get the normal paired wep ability to parry and simul, do double strikes, and all that, but that its the extra attacks the race gets at 1st and 4th level that account for the extra arm useage. Even then they are pretty insane.

I'm just wondering if this is how you interpret the RAW and if you would run them that way or not?

EDIT: Before anybody asks the Jeridu are in Land of the Damned 1, p.69.

This is pretty much how I would run it myself.
I would allow, three simuls against three targets, or allow each pair to add two more defenders for parry. (so if your just using normal parries and attacks a Jeridu can melee 6 people safely, instead of the normal 2-3 maximum.

So if you can simul three are you able to parry/simul them? Are you able to twin strike simul them (and receive damage yourself)? If you only parry you could parry 6 attacks and not use any simul attacks then use your attacks on your normal turn to return twin strikes on all 6 targets? Like 3 warriors who have paired weapons can auto parry 2 attacks each then when its their turn could twin strike 2 seperate (6 total targets)? Because that would be sextupled weapons if one Jeridu did it...

For each APM you use you can do one action.
You can
-Parry (one weapon)
-Attack (one weapon)
-Twin Attack (paired weapon)
-Parry/Attack (paired weapon)
-Simo Dual Attack (paired weapon)
The description, to me, does not allow for the Jeridu to do anything more than the rules already allow for paired weapons. It simply lets you have six weapons, and use any two of them as pairs. Which is pretty impressive all by its self. But I don't see it as allowing you to make 6 action per APM.

[say652]

I wish you the best. It seems the nerfin posse has swarmed your post.

Any who six arms equals six actions per attack.
Any one saying different is just a nerfherder trying to herd you into nerftopia for some un fun psuedo rules lawyer craptastic gaming. True story.

No need to insult all those who have differing views there. Just as 'muchkin' is relative so is 'nerf'. Especially when your applying the statement to something nebulous that (due to the length of the thread).

Raises head to speak again * several more Nerf arrows thunk into our hero*
.................

[Thinyser]

Maybe. That's not what it says though. It says 3 sets of paired weapons. Set one does a parry/attack that's cool. But the second and third set are different pairs, they are doing a different response. At least that's how I see it.

So what about the part that says they can use paired weapons for all 6 of their arms? If you say that you can only use it for 2 arms and the other 4 just kind sit there holding things but not doing anything that is not 3 sets of paired weapons being used by all 6 arms. Its one set of paired weapons and 4 things that just kinda look menacing.

That's your option. I am saying that I do not see that same wording as coming to that conclusion. I am saying that I see it as...three sets of 2 not one set of 6. And yes there is a difference.

Wait are you now applying paired weapons to all three sets or only only 1? I'm not really clear here on how you stand.

For each APM you use you can do one action.
You can
-Parry (one weapon)
-Attack (one weapon)
-Twin Attack (paired weapon)
-Parry/Attack (paired weapon)
-Simo Dual Attack (paired weapon)
The description, to me, does not allow for the Jeridu to do anything more than the rules already allow for paired weapons. It simply lets you have six weapons, and use any two of them as pairs. Which is pretty impressive all by its self. But I don't see it as allowing you to make 6 action per APM.

Thats back to one set of paired weapons and 4 mean looking but useless things dangling there. Not impressive at all really.