What does a vibro-blade do against bare SDC flesh?

[Thinyser]

Meh. The palladium parry rules have always been....wonky. I don't give vibro-weapons any boost. If you parry, you parry. If you don't, your hit. Simple. I try to avoid opening bottomless cans of worms of exceptions and differences in my game.

I appreciate streamlining the system especially combat but sometimes exceptions make things more fun.

Well you either make an exception that SDC weapons are immune to MDC vibroblades (even though they can cleave through that SDC Full plate armor as if it were cardboard) which just seems kinda wrong to me...

or you say they can try to parry and it always fails because the vibroblade cuts equally well in all directions (which is probably canon, even though it really looks like it should work like a normal blade and only cut on the edges) but that doesn't seem realistic or fun to me...

or you can give the SDC weapon wielder a chance to parry the flat of the vibroblade but at a negative (which is of course an exception to the normal rules and takes more a second or two longer to play out then either the autofail or regular parry roll).

I prefer my method not because its easier, or right by canon, but because it seems right to me. Having them unable to parry with SDC weapons is probably canon and is fastest in combat but it seems that it would be (or at least should be IMO) possible to parry on the flat of the vibroblade BUT that this would be harder than a normal parry. While having SDC weapons magically survive blows from MDC dealing weapons just doesn't make sense to me no matter how you look at it.

To each their own.

[eliakon]

Meh. The palladium parry rules have always been....wonky. I don't give vibro-weapons any boost. If you parry, you parry. If you don't, your hit. Simple. I try to avoid opening bottomless cans of worms of exceptions and differences in my game.

I appreciate streamlining the system especially combat but sometimes exceptions make things more fun.

Well you either make an exception that SDC weapons are immune to MDC vibroblades (even though they can cleave through that SDC Full plate armor as if it were cardboard) which just seems kinda wrong to me...

or you say they can try to parry and it always fails because the vibroblade cuts equally well in all directions (which is probably canon, even though it really looks like it should work like a normal blade and only cut on the edges) but that doesn't seem realistic or fun to me...

or you can give the SDC weapon wielder a chance to parry the flat of the vibroblade but at a negative (which is of course an exception to the normal rules and takes more a second or two longer to play out then either the autofail or regular parry roll).

I prefer my method not because its easier, or right by canon, but because it seems right to me. Having them unable to parry with SDC weapons is probably canon and is fastest in combat but it seems that it would be (or at least should be IMO) possible to parry on the flat of the vibroblade BUT that this would be harder than a normal parry. While having SDC weapons magically survive blows from MDC dealing weapons just doesn't make sense to me no matter how you look at it.

To each their own.

As far as I am aware Canon is silent on the blades nature, but since all 'vibro' weapons have to have blades it suggests to me that the 'vibration' is in the edge. So if you parry the flat, or the hand, or generate a miss....(all valid 'parry' techinques) then your fine.
And the survival of weapons is ALREADY canon. Other than shields weapons explicitly only take damage when targeted by attacks. No form of normal parry depletes the DC of weapons. Which is why you can parry with a weapon more than one or two times.
*shrugs* I can't argue with 'seems right to me' since its your game, you need to have the house rules that fit you best. But as far as I can tell the RAW allow anything to parry anything with no damage. (Which is good, since there is no list of damage for most things to begin with, nor locational injury rules or.....yah)

[Alrik Vas]

Block the arm wielding the weapon if that's your go. You take a -4 to not be accidentally hit by the weapon during the attempt. I wish i could quote the book specifically, but i forget which one it's in. Probably not even a Rifts book.

[wyrmraker]

Block the arm wielding the weapon if that's your go. You take a -4 to not be accidentally hit by the weapon during the attempt. I wish i could quote the book specifically, but i forget which one it's in. Probably not even a Rifts book.

As an aside, I find that outside of GURPS (where the maneuver is outlined and book legal), the Offensive Parry, i.e. Parrying them at the wrist with a weapon, tends to be somewhat frowned upon by GMs. Probably because it's not a very well known maneuver in the Palladium combat system. And individual limbs tend not to have stats.

[Thinyser]

Meh. The palladium parry rules have always been....wonky. I don't give vibro-weapons any boost. If you parry, you parry. If you don't, your hit. Simple. I try to avoid opening bottomless cans of worms of exceptions and differences in my game.

I appreciate streamlining the system especially combat but sometimes exceptions make things more fun.

Well you either make an exception that SDC weapons are immune to MDC vibroblades (even though they can cleave through that SDC Full plate armor as if it were cardboard) which just seems kinda wrong to me...

or you say they can try to parry and it always fails because the vibroblade cuts equally well in all directions (which is probably canon, even though it really looks like it should work like a normal blade and only cut on the edges) but that doesn't seem realistic or fun to me...

or you can give the SDC weapon wielder a chance to parry the flat of the vibroblade but at a negative (which is of course an exception to the normal rules and takes more a second or two longer to play out then either the autofail or regular parry roll).

I prefer my method not because its easier, or right by canon, but because it seems right to me. Having them unable to parry with SDC weapons is probably canon and is fastest in combat but it seems that it would be (or at least should be IMO) possible to parry on the flat of the vibroblade BUT that this would be harder than a normal parry. While having SDC weapons magically survive blows from MDC dealing weapons just doesn't make sense to me no matter how you look at it.

To each their own.

As far as I am aware Canon is silent on the blades nature, but since all 'vibro' weapons have to have blades it suggests to me that the 'vibration' is in the edge. So if you parry the flat, or the hand, or generate a miss....(all valid 'parry' techinques) then your fine.
And the survival of weapons is ALREADY canon. Other than shields weapons explicitly only take damage when targeted by attacks. No form of normal parry depletes the DC of weapons. Which is why you can parry with a weapon more than one or two times.
*shrugs* I can't argue with 'seems right to me' since its your game, you need to have the house rules that fit you best. But as far as I can tell the RAW allow anything to parry anything with no damage. (Which is good, since there is no list of damage for most things to begin with, nor locational injury rules or.....yah)

I don't think you are correct that SDC structures (bladed or not) can parry MD weapons. See the Neural Mace, it specifically says that its a MDC structure so can be used to parry MD attacks. While not outright stating you must have a MDC structure to parry a MD attack this STRONGLY implies that is the case. And Rationally how can you say that a SDC weapon (be it a wood club or metal sword) that has less SDC than a suit of leather armor can somehow withstand a MD strike from a vibroblade? Unless of course it was on a non cutting portion of the vibroblade as I've proposed.

[Alrik Vas]

Block the arm wielding the weapon if that's your go. You take a -4 to not be accidentally hit by the weapon during the attempt. I wish i could quote the book specifically, but i forget which one it's in. Probably not even a Rifts book.

As an aside, I find that outside of GURPS (where the maneuver is outlined and book legal), the Offensive Parry, i.e. Parrying them at the wrist with a weapon, tends to be somewhat frowned upon by GMs. Probably because it's not a very well known maneuver in the Palladium combat system. And individual limbs tend not to have stats.

If they aren't spending an attack per melee to make the parry, then don't let it deal damage.

[sanka]

From my viewpoint the Vibroblade will slice through the arm. Dammage will be restricted. But you'd better get to a cyber-doc real fast to re-atach the appendage...

[wyrmraker]

Block the arm wielding the weapon if that's your go. You take a -4 to not be accidentally hit by the weapon during the attempt. I wish i could quote the book specifically, but i forget which one it's in. Probably not even a Rifts book.

As an aside, I find that outside of GURPS (where the maneuver is outlined and book legal), the Offensive Parry, i.e. Parrying them at the wrist with a weapon, tends to be somewhat frowned upon by GMs. Probably because it's not a very well known maneuver in the Palladium combat system. And individual limbs tend not to have stats.

If they aren't spending an attack per melee to make the parry, then don't let it deal damage.

I see your logic, but when I was first learning swordsmanship, that style of parry was my default target. And if the maneuver is done in-game with something like a psi-swrod, can the damage actually be avoided?

[eliakon]

Block the arm wielding the weapon if that's your go. You take a -4 to not be accidentally hit by the weapon during the attempt. I wish i could quote the book specifically, but i forget which one it's in. Probably not even a Rifts book.

As an aside, I find that outside of GURPS (where the maneuver is outlined and book legal), the Offensive Parry, i.e. Parrying them at the wrist with a weapon, tends to be somewhat frowned upon by GMs. Probably because it's not a very well known maneuver in the Palladium combat system. And individual limbs tend not to have stats.

If they aren't spending an attack per melee to make the parry, then don't let it deal damage.

I see your logic, but when I was first learning swordsmanship, that style of parry was my default target. And if the maneuver is done in-game with something like a psi-swrod, can the damage actually be avoided?

The model of parry that Palladium uses is 'you deflected their attack because of ______' It doesn't actually HAVE an implementation mechanism, so while it doesn't damage your attacker, or disarm them, or leave them open, it also doesn't damage your weapon, or leave you open, or.......
Though if a player wanted to do an aggressive parry I would probably allow it as some sort of combination parry/attack.

[Thinyser]

Block the arm wielding the weapon if that's your go. You take a -4 to not be accidentally hit by the weapon during the attempt. I wish i could quote the book specifically, but i forget which one it's in. Probably not even a Rifts book.

As an aside, I find that outside of GURPS (where the maneuver is outlined and book legal), the Offensive Parry, i.e. Parrying them at the wrist with a weapon, tends to be somewhat frowned upon by GMs. Probably because it's not a very well known maneuver in the Palladium combat system. And individual limbs tend not to have stats.

If they aren't spending an attack per melee to make the parry, then don't let it deal damage.

I see your logic, but when I was first learning swordsmanship, that style of parry was my default target. And if the maneuver is done in-game with something like a psi-sword, can the damage actually be avoided?

I would allow it, but it would both use your next attack (as per the simul attack rules) and it would be a called shot to a small moving target so at least a 16 to strike er... parry.

[wyrmraker]

Block the arm wielding the weapon if that's your go. You take a -4 to not be accidentally hit by the weapon during the attempt. I wish i could quote the book specifically, but i forget which one it's in. Probably not even a Rifts book.

As an aside, I find that outside of GURPS (where the maneuver is outlined and book legal), the Offensive Parry, i.e. Parrying them at the wrist with a weapon, tends to be somewhat frowned upon by GMs. Probably because it's not a very well known maneuver in the Palladium combat system. And individual limbs tend not to have stats.

If they aren't spending an attack per melee to make the parry, then don't let it deal damage.

I see your logic, but when I was first learning swordsmanship, that style of parry was my default target. And if the maneuver is done in-game with something like a psi-sword, can the damage actually be avoided?

I would allow it, but it would both use your next attack (as per the simul attack rules) and it would be a called shot to a small moving target so at least a 16 to strike er... parry.

I disagree, but that's your call for your game. I disagree because I know, for a fact, that that particular parry (sword vs sword) is very easy to perform. For me, it's actually more difficult NOT to perform out of instinct.

[Mechghost]

answer to original question in my games - if energy field is OFF the vibro-blade does SD and can be parried normally, with field ON its MD and only parried by MDC weapon etc.

[wyrmraker]

answer to original question in my games - if energy field is OFF the vibro-blade does SD and can be parried normally, with field ON its MD and only parried by MDC weapon etc.

That's how I've always run it.

[Thinyser]

I disagree, but that's your call for your game. I disagree because I know, for a fact, that that particular parry (sword vs sword) is very easy to perform. For me, it's actually more difficult NOT to perform out of instinct.

So ah how many hands have you chopped off in your day?

I proposed those rolls because they fit more closely with canon than anything to do with "real life". As a sword fighter you would be right to question its "realism" but that's not what I was going for. I was going for a way of interweaving existing canon with a maneuver that's not specifically covered within said canon.

I think using an attack to simul strike fits very well with canon as you are actually striking the person with the intent to harm them (as well as deflect the blow they are attempting) not just parrying their blade. The 16 or higher to succeed also fits well with existing canon since its a called shot (12 or higher) with a -4 modifier (for small moving target) for a total of 16 or higher. It ends up being a simul strike with the added benefit that if you succeed not only do you damage them (and possibly end the fight by removing their sword hand) but that you don't take damage like you do in a normal simul.

Not realistic in your experience? OK I'll grant you that.
Fits pretty well with canon? I'd say yes.

[kaid]

I chose other, but largely because I don't think the flesh is pulped. The vibroblade does MD damage. So it'd be like a hot Sword through soft butter. If anything even cleaner. (( much like the pic of the NGR guy getting the top of his head sliced off.

For me I just picture them 'cutting' much like a light saber without the cauterization. So clean cuts, and when you hack off a limb, well blood's gonna come a gushing. If you stab it in and yank it around yeah you'll shred. But stabs are different from cuts.

Yep.

This is pretty much how I have run vibro weapons. If you hit somebody on the arm it will go through it like a hot knife through butter similar to a light saber but no cauterization. Now the chainswords they have for some power armor in NG2 would be mass trauma/flesh pulpying ickyness.

[vakusdrake]

I add the supernatural strength damage to the vibro knife. But vs sdc targets one or two hits and your dead. Unless your mdc.

Against scd targets adding supernatural strength to the damage doesn't make sense since the weapon already passes through effortlessly. Then again the vibroblade should deal the same damage to a juicer that it does to a normal person, since it will just pass effortlessly through their flesh, it should lower their hp and sdc by a certain percentage instead of by a set amount since damage is really just about what part of the torso you sliced through. The length of the blade should be the main concern since a vibrosword would probably chop someone in half or nearly in half every time it hit the torso (unless a called **** was made), a vibroknife by comparison would only go hilt-deep into the torso and thus a sdc person would have a reasonable chance of survival.

[Tor]

One other thing I'm wondering about...

Even if quick slashes from a vibro-blade simply made clean cuts...

What would happen if you stabbed a vibro-blade into someone and just left it there? Would the weapon vibrate their whole body and cause damage from the shaking to explain the death?

What if... you just can't swing a vibro-blade fast enough to avoid this fatal aspect?

[Satan Lord of Hell]

This is a sweet topic.

I personally think a vibro-blade simply slices through SDC materials with nearly no resistance (100 SDC to 1 MDC relative resistance).

Injuries would be on par with industrial accidents which, given current technology today, probably do 1 or 2 points of MDC equivalent; ya know, like when people get sheared apart by huge presses or circular saws design to saw apart concrete or granite. So injuries would be situational in combat - some wounds would be messy others would be relatively clean.

[Kagashi]

I picked full MDC, however be logical about it. If you get stabbed in the arm, the full 1D6 MD doesnt strike the entire body in the static value Palladium assigns biological damage capacity totals. Instead, I am in favor of assigning biological damage capacity values to locations, like body armor and power armor already are. Ive used various values in the past, but this is what I use right now:

Unless specified to a particular body part:
- Main Body: 100% of the base HP/SDC or MDC value
- Head: 50%
- Leg: 25% each
- Foot: 10% each
- Arm or Tentacle: 15% each
- Hand: 10% each
- Tail: 25% each
- Wings: 50% each

That way, if you get struck by the equivalent of 600 SDC in the arm, you dont instantly die, but your arm is clearly severed and require somebody with the Paramedic or equivalent skill to stop the bleeding.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I disagree, but that's your call for your game. I disagree because I know, for a fact, that that particular parry (sword vs sword) is very easy to perform. For me, it's actually more difficult NOT to perform out of instinct.

Rather blanket statement there. Part of the point(Pardon the pun) of using a sword is increased reach and leverage. If you're parrying at someone's wrist, that means you've bypassed their entire blade and are inside of their defenses.

Can it be done? sure. Is it an 'easy default'? Eh... depends on whom you're fighting. What weapon they're using etc. Keeping one's hands from being cut off is why swords often have guards. be they basket hilts or what have you.

Just going "I always parry at the wrist to hack off hands" is... well unrealistic. you can try, but you have to get past that two or three feet of steel (Or light saber, what have you) to try it. That two or three feet of sword you're bypassing, has a tendency to seek out entry into your body when you're trying to get around it, which, I think we can all agree, is problematic in he best of times.

I fenced competitively in college, and while I don't call myself a master of anything, I know enough to know that in 'real' sword fights, you avoid parries as much as you can. They do absolutely nothing good to your blade. And blades break so so so much easier than people think they do, watching movies and TV. Fighting for real with a sword, and Fencing, or what we see in movies/tv have very little in common.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Meh. The palladium parry rules have always been....wonky. I don't give vibro-weapons any boost. If you parry, you parry. If you don't, your hit. Simple. I try to avoid opening bottomless cans of worms of exceptions and differences in my game.

I try and keep my games simple too. That said if you parry an MD weapon with something that's just SDC. I might give you one parry (If that) then your SDC weapon is gone.

In my mind I envision it as the guy bringing a 'normal' sword to a light saber fight. They're both swords, but the guy with the metal blade isn't going to be parrying the light saber left right and center. he might get -one. "THRUM! Clang! as the blade is bisected and it hits the floor leaving the poor guy with part of a sword with a glowing tip. And that's if I'm being nice. Realistically the Light saber blade, being MD would pass through the sword and on into it's intended target with minimal slowing of swing.

For cinematic reasons though, I'd likely give the one parry/destruction of the weapon.

Now for ease of explanation I mention light sabers, but the same goes for Vibro weapons. They're just a class up. You could envision the same thing but have one guy with a Christmas wrapping paper tube in his hand and the other guy with a real sword.

[Killer Cyborg]

If the arm is next to the person's body, the damage could well indicate that the blade passes through the arm, and into (or through) the torso as well.

[vakusdrake]

I picked full MDC, however be logical about it. If you get stabbed in the arm, the full 1D6 MD doesnt strike the entire body in the static value Palladium assigns biological damage capacity totals. Instead, I am in favor of assigning biological damage capacity values to locations, like body armor and power armor already are. Ive used various values in the past, but this is what I use right now:

Unless specified to a particular body part:
- Main Body: 100% of the base HP/SDC or MDC value
- Head: 50%
- Leg: 25% each
- Foot: 10% each
- Arm or Tentacle: 15% each
- Hand: 10% each
- Tail: 25% each
- Wings: 50% each

That way, if you get struck by the equivalent of 600 SDC in the arm, you dont instantly die, but your arm is clearly severed and require somebody with the Paramedic or equivalent skill to stop the bleeding.

I agree with your logic however I don't think I agree with the value you gave the head it should have a much lower percentage value of health the human head is very fragile after all it's where the brain is held. The only way a human is likely to survive a vibroweapon hit to the head is if it only grazes them or it cuts through their jaw. If it makes it through the skull they are tremendously ******

[Kagashi]

I just used 50% for the head to take place of the "double damage to the head" rule.

[Hotrod]

Well, let's try a thought experiment:

Case 1: Someone slashes a vibro-blade at the chest of a regular human in gym clothes, and the dude tries to block with his arm.
I think we can all agree that the blade will pass through the arm easily, as well as whatever is beneath that arm. If the chest/vital organs are in the path of the blade, I think it's safe to say that the regular human is dead and quite possibly chopped in half.

Case 2: Same as above, but this time, only the forearm of the regular human is in the path of the blade.
I have no doubt that the hand/lower forearm gets severed, which would involve serious HP loss and bleeding at a minimum. However, what happens to the rest of the victim is unclear. Is the energy transferred into and through the flesh, causing massive trauma everywhere (like a high-velocity bullet can pulp tissue)? or is it simply a clean cut?

Case 3: Same as before, but now, the tip of the blade just grazes the skin.
If this was a regular SDC weapon, the victim would have a superficial cut (light SDC damage, nothing life-threatening). The outcome in this case is unclear to me. This could be ruled as an "effective miss" from the tie-goes-to-defender rule.

Canon-wise, I don't know of any guidance one way or another on this issue.

Art-wise, there is one case that has some bearing: a Kevin Long piece in Mindwerks that shows a Brodkil slicing through the helmet and brain of an NGR trooper. The cut is clean, and you can see the brain structure within, indicating that no visible trauma was inflicted deeper than the level of the cut.

Modeling this approach requires three possible outcomes for the area hit: amputation, deep cut, or shallow cut. It also requires some ruling on whether or not the blow affects vital organs/major arteries.

Of course, this approach interprets art as canon, a questionable assumption.

[eliakon]

I figure that the 'vibro' effect just makes it cut really well. Just a souped up version of an electric carving knife or jigsaw. If it was supposed to 'pulp things on contact' or 'vibrate through things' then it would have had such an ability mentioned I would think. As such it just does a massive amount of damage. Which in the nature of rifts may mean a whole host of things to be honest.....

[Killer Cyborg]

Case 3: Same as before, but now, the tip of the blade just grazes the skin.
If this was a regular SDC weapon, the victim would have a superficial cut (light SDC damage, nothing life-threatening). The outcome in this case is unclear to me. This could be ruled as an "effective miss" from the tie-goes-to-defender rule.

Canon-wise, I don't know of any guidance one way or another on this issue.

Vibro-Knife:
Mega-Damage: 1d6 MD

1 MD is the minimum damage the weapon can do in combat. It's either 1 MD, or zero damage at all (aka Miss).

[Hotrod]

By rule, you are of course right. How should the damage from a tiny nick from a vibro-knife be described?

[Killer Cyborg]

By rule, you are of course right. How should the damage from a tiny nick from a vibro-knife be described?

To a normal person?

I always liked the phrase "he exploded like a blood sausage."
"Reduced to a thin red paste" is also good.


(man, I miss the game Wasteland...)

[Kagashi]

Case 1: Someone slashes a vibro-blade at the chest of a regular human in gym clothes, and the dude tries to block with his arm.
I think we can all agree that the blade will pass through the arm easily, as well as whatever is beneath that arm. If the chest/vital organs are in the path of the blade, I think it's safe to say that the regular human is dead and quite possibly chopped in half.

Using my system, a failed parry means the character is hit in the intended targeted location (likely in the main body). Damage is applied there, likely killing the character. So really no different than RAW.

Case 2: Same as above, but this time, only the forearm of the regular human is in the path of the blade.
I have no doubt that the hand/lower forearm gets severed, which would involve serious HP loss and bleeding at a minimum. However, what happens to the rest of the victim is unclear. Is the energy transferred into and through the flesh, causing massive trauma everywhere (like a high-velocity bullet can pulp tissue)? or is it simply a clean cut?

Using my system, the arm is likely severed clean. RAW does not address this scenario though. Either the attacker rolls a successful strike, or he misses. Should the strike be successful, the defender can either parry, dodge, or entangle. If successful, no damage is applied. If he fails, the strike hits and the squishy is likely killed (effectively as you described being transferred into and through the flesh causing massive trauma everywhere).

Case 3: Same as before, but now, the tip of the blade just grazes the skin.
If this was a regular SDC weapon, the victim would have a superficial cut (light SDC damage, nothing life-threatening). The outcome in this case is unclear to me. This could be ruled as an "effective miss" from the tie-goes-to-defender rule.

By the RAW, the least amount of damage a vibro blade can do is 1 MD. Most humans/squishies garner less than 100 HP and SDC combined. Even a graze or nick from a vibro thumb tack would instantly kill the average human regardless of where it hit on the body. By the book, KCs description might as well be official.

Thats why I like to inject common sense on the topic and assume the damage is applied to a body part. Of course if that graze was on the head or main body...the 1 MD is applied directly to that body part and the character is likely dead.

Somewhere out there one of the rules on parrying talked about parrying weapons with bare hands where the character would end up taking some sort of percentage of damage even with a successful parry. It was either Ninjas and Superspies or a Rifter FAQ. But I honestly cannot find it. But I find the idea of parrying the weapon itself retarded anyway. If you were going to parry a dude with a knife, you parry the forearm or hand, not the blade anyway.

But in reality, entangle and parry ends up taking damage as well in a real fight. Take your friend and give him a Sharpie in place of a knife. Now have him thrust at you and practice entangling and/or parrying. At the end of the session, check to see how many black dots and streaks are all over your arms and body. Now imagine that was a vibro blade doing a minimum of 1 MD for every dot/streak.

[Killer Cyborg]

Part of it comes down to the nature of vibro blades.
Some people think of them like an electric carving knife, but I've heard it argued that they're more like a particle field surrounding the blade.
I can't find much on the origins or actual meaning of the term, but the latter version sounds more like Rifts. And it makes sense with the description of the weapon.
That's going to leave much bigger wound channels than just the size of the blade.

Even with the electric knife version, if the blade is vibrating enough to do mega-damage, that's not going to be just a small nick.
Think about getting "nicked" by a running chainsaw, then crank it up by 10-100x.