popscythe wrote:I think it's time that the members of this desperate vocal minority smear campaign are removed from the forums.
Your really not helping a already tense situation.
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popscythe wrote:I think it's time that the members of this desperate vocal minority smear campaign are removed from the forums.
Sureshot wrote:popscythe wrote:I think it's time that the members of this desperate vocal minority smear campaign are removed from the forums.
Your really not helping a already tense situation.
Giant2005 wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Randomfist wrote:Apologies for "not knowing the release dates because this was new to us". No apology for breaking a PROMISE that backers would get their stuff first. With that promise there were no ifs, ands or buts attached. It was a promise. There should be an apology for breaking the promise, not a " this is new to us, we didn't know manufacturing would happen right before gen Con " excuse.
Is there a place where I can read the exact wording of that promise?
This is what is being quoted as the "promise" In the end, you, our Kickstarter supporters, will be the first to receive a wonderful product that we hope will make you grin and provide endless hours of enjoyment. Thank you for sharing our dream. You, your pledges of support and unbridled enthusiasm are very much appreciated.
Worth mentioning is that it was said within update number 125 which occurred almost 8 months after the Kickstarter was over and people had made their pledges without knowing whether or not they would be the first to receive the product.
jreece06 wrote:NMI wrote:jreece06 wrote:Especially when there is fear of reprisal
Do you have verifiable proof that there will be some form of reprisal? No? Didn't think so.
Do you understand what a fear is?
Jorel wrote:Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Jorel wrote:Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.
"...if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote."
-Robert's Rules Of Order
Palladium is making a vote that requires a majority of the entire membership of backers.
An abstention will have the same effect as voting against the measure to cancel their plans for GenCon.
This is all strictly in accordance with Robert's Rule of Order.
Anyone who does NOT respond by July 21st, we will consider to be a “yes.”
bielmic wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Jorel wrote:Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.
"...if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote."
-Robert's Rules Of Order
Palladium is making a vote that requires a majority of the entire membership of backers.
An abstention will have the same effect as voting against the measure to cancel their plans for GenCon.
This is all strictly in accordance with Robert's Rule of Order.
Doesn't it say that "abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote" mean that an abstention SHOULD have the same effect as voting NO in the poll?
NMI wrote:jreece06 wrote:Especially when there is fear of reprisal
Do you have verifiable proof that there will be some form of reprisal? No? Didn't think so.
Killer Cyborg wrote:bielmic wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Jorel wrote:Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.
"...if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote."
-Robert's Rules Of Order
Palladium is making a vote that requires a majority of the entire membership of backers.
An abstention will have the same effect as voting against the measure to cancel their plans for GenCon.
This is all strictly in accordance with Robert's Rule of Order.
Doesn't it say that "abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote" mean that an abstention SHOULD have the same effect as voting NO in the poll?
Not exactly.
It means that abstention will have the effect as voting "no" against whatever measure is being proposed.
In this case, the measure being proposed is Palladium cancelling their plans to bring the product to GenCon.
So a "no" in this case would mean, "No, don't CANCEL," not "No, don't go."
Even though the poll itself is opposite of that.
bielmic wrote:NMI wrote:jreece06 wrote:Especially when there is fear of reprisal
Do you have verifiable proof that there will be some form of reprisal? No? Didn't think so.
Do you have verifiable proof that there won't be some form of reprisal? No. Didn't think so.
Giant2005 wrote:Worth mentioning is that it was said within update number 125 which occurred almost 8 months after the Kickstarter was over and people had made their pledges without knowing whether or not they would be the first to receive the product.
Plus, the Kickstarter gives you the first shot at getting many of the Robotech® game pieces before anyone else.
bielmic wrote:@Kevin and Wayne and Alex:
In an effort to be constructive, I thought I'd post some things that you can do to raise awareness without the bad PR that going to Gencon and seller backer's minis will have. You could for instance give away a single mini at demos to hook people and keep long lines throughout the whole day at the booth. People will line up and stand for hours just to get a single mini for free and the booth will never look empty. You could take preorders and do a raffle for one or two core boxes EACH DAY at a scheduled time for added exposure. Basically, if you preorder the boxed set and win the raffle, you get your order RIGHT AWAY instead of waiting till all the backers get their's. You could also give away a small amount like a dozen to selected news sites, reviewers, and youtubers to generate additional press coverage. You could also have another set time where backers come and pick up their packages as long as they arrange it ahead of time which would save you on shipping in those cases. All those things generate positive press and at most (combined) only take away a few dozen boxes from the initial shipment.
bielmic wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:bielmic wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Jorel wrote:Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.
"...if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote."
-Robert's Rules Of Order
Palladium is making a vote that requires a majority of the entire membership of backers.
An abstention will have the same effect as voting against the measure to cancel their plans for GenCon.
This is all strictly in accordance with Robert's Rules of Order.
Doesn't it say that "abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote" mean that an abstention SHOULD have the same effect as voting NO in the poll?
Not exactly.
It means that abstention will have the effect as voting "no" against whatever measure is being proposed.
In this case, the measure being proposed is Palladium cancelling their plans to bring the product to GenCon.
So a "no" in this case would mean, "No, don't CANCEL," not "No, don't go."
Even though the poll itself is opposite of that.
No, exactly it does. In your rules, the absence of a vote is a no. In this case, it is a yes. In the literal sense, this poll is the exact opposite of what you're saying. You can't change the question after the fact to suit the answer you want to go with your rule.
bielmic wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Worth mentioning is that it was said within update number 125 which occurred almost 8 months after the Kickstarter was over and people had made their pledges without knowing whether or not they would be the first to receive the product.
That is just the quickest place to find the full quote along with the "promise". It was repeated multiple times both before then and after. Also, here is palladium's own announcement of the kickstarter.
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... t-featuresPlus, the Kickstarter gives you the first shot at getting many of the Robotech® game pieces before anyone else.
The premise of backers getting the minis first PREDATES the kickstarter and has been consistently and constantly repeated during and after. It was the go-to consolation phrase used to soften the blow of split waves AND multiple months of delays in which we'd only get 1/3 of the sculpts 6 months late (at that time.. the delay is longer now).
Marcus wrote:And yes, that's me saying it, who has no interest in RTT aside from the whole mess being very entertaining to watch.
*munches popcorn*
Bad_Syntax wrote: I was a yes vote because I'd rather the game be a huge success than me get my box a month earlier.
A year from now, when everybody has their wave 2's all painted up, and play the game often, all of this will not matter one bit.
Bad_Syntax wrote:A year from now, when everybody has their wave 2's all painted up
Forar wrote:A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?
Randomfist wrote:For those arguing that it is somehow legitimate to count an absentia vote as a vote in the affirmative... let's put that theory to a real world, common sense test. Senator Chuck from the great state of Michigan proposes a bill in his state Congress that from now on, of all registered voters in the state, any non vote will count as a yes vote. All bills, amendments, etc. will be decided by a vote of the people and those registered voters who don't vote, it counts as a yes vote. Everyone here knows, using common sense, that bill would be shot down and pretty much certainly overturned by the state Supreme Court. Why? You know what, I can't tell you on a legal basis, but on a common sense basis, it's pretty cut and dry. Heck, let's have a sitting President decree that of all registered voters, all non votes are a vote for him for his next term. I realize a President can't do that in our nation but I use it as an example of how ludicrous it is to call a non vote anything other than what it is... a non vote. And just because someone doesn't vote, it does not mean they don't care either way. If the above law by Senator Chuck actually passed, and a non vote was counted as a yes vote, it's pretty obvious that there would be a higher turn out during elections. (Dang, maybe Palladium is onto something, ridiculous voting laws may force people to get more involved and contribute in the democratic process)
Giant2005 wrote:Forar wrote:A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?
I personally don't think that is really a fair question at all.
There is a difference between standing aside so Palladium can advertise the game, making it more prominent for all those involved and standing aside so those that are unwilling to let the game reach its potential can get priority. I would personally allow the former on principle but be repulsed if the latter were to take effect, also on principle.
Forar wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Forar wrote:A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?
I personally don't think that is really a fair question at all.
There is a difference between standing aside so Palladium can advertise the game, making it more prominent for all those involved and standing aside so those that are unwilling to let the game reach its potential can get priority. I would personally allow the former on principle but be repulsed if the latter were to take effect, also on principle.
So that's a no?
Fine, that's cool.
There are plenty of people in the comments whom are cheerfully taking pot shots at those who voted No, calling them all kinds of names and patting themselves on the back for how patient they are.
So, surely a couple hundred of them are willing to 'take one for the team' and step aside for an extra couple of weeks.
I never said "ALL" of the Yes's should, merely pointing out that some of those who feel it's not a big thing could show how firmly they felt about the matter by volunteering to willingly accept the thing they keep citing as 'no big deal'.
Giant2005 wrote:However I would never willingly wait longer than those that spent their time bad-mouthing, obstructing the process and generally trying to sabotage everything at every turn. The needs of those who's influence is entirely negative in nature should never be placed before the more positive members of a community in my opinion.
Forar wrote:Giant2005 wrote:However I would never willingly wait longer than those that spent their time bad-mouthing, obstructing the process and generally trying to sabotage everything at every turn. The needs of those who's influence is entirely negative in nature should never be placed before the more positive members of a community in my opinion.
How has anyone "obstructed" or "sabotaged" the campaign?
PB is made up of veterans of the industry, some with more years in it than many of their fans have been alive. I doubt anything I or anyone else has to say about them has caused them to lose a wink of sleep.
I think you're vastly overstating whatever 'damage' may have been done by... some heated words on a comment section that all but nobody other than other backers reads.
Randomfist wrote:For those arguing that it is somehow legitimate to count an absentia vote as a vote in the affirmative... let's put that theory to a real world, common sense test. Senator Chuck from the great state of Michigan proposes a bill in his state Congress that from now on, of all registered voters in the state, any non vote will count as a yes vote. All bills, amendments, etc. will be decided by a vote of the people and those registered voters who don't vote, it counts as a yes vote. Everyone here knows, using common sense, that bill would be shot down and pretty much certainly overturned by the state Supreme Court.
Jorel wrote:Nothing about this seams fair to the backers who funded this expecting to receive this product before it hits market. Palladium is putting it for sale in the marketplace of GenCon before 90% of backers receive the merchandize they paid for over a year ago.
Prince Artemis wrote:Also, the one's saying they're fearing reprisal are no voters that are trying to use fallacies to sway people. They are effectively the birther movement of this vote. Making baseless accusations to try and sew doubt.
Giant2005 wrote:Forar wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Forar wrote:A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?
I personally don't think that is really a fair question at all.
There is a difference between standing aside so Palladium can advertise the game, making it more prominent for all those involved and standing aside so those that are unwilling to let the game reach its potential can get priority. I would personally allow the former on principle but be repulsed if the latter were to take effect, also on principle.
So that's a no?
Fine, that's cool.
There are plenty of people in the comments whom are cheerfully taking pot shots at those who voted No, calling them all kinds of names and patting themselves on the back for how patient they are.
So, surely a couple hundred of them are willing to 'take one for the team' and step aside for an extra couple of weeks.
I never said "ALL" of the Yes's should, merely pointing out that some of those who feel it's not a big thing could show how firmly they felt about the matter by volunteering to willingly accept the thing they keep citing as 'no big deal'.
I don't care for Robotech and didn't actually partake in the Kickstarter nor do I intend to purchase it upon release so it doesn't really concern me but if the same question had been posted regarding the Megaversal Insider books, my opinion would be more relevant.
I am a pretty patient guy - waiting for NG 1 and 2 was something I was happy to do and I would have been happy enough to wait another couple of years if that is what it took and I'd happily wait until the majority of the other people had received their goods and not give it a moment's thought. However I would never willingly wait longer than those that spent their time bad-mouthing, obstructing the process and generally trying to sabotage everything at every turn. The needs of those who's influence is entirely negative in nature should never be placed before the more positive members of a community in my opinion.
ffranceschi wrote:I voted YES because if this "Robotech thing" fails, it will bring dire consequences to Palladium Books and the other game lines (it's just too big a thing not to have an impact, good or bad; I have been saying this from day one). They need to advertise in Gen Con, there's no way around it. But I am not blind, they should also think about all the angry backers and try some form of compensation, even a small one, just a token of gratitude...
Giant2005 wrote:ffranceschi wrote:I voted YES because if this "Robotech thing" fails, it will bring dire consequences to Palladium Books and the other game lines (it's just too big a thing not to have an impact, good or bad; I have been saying this from day one). They need to advertise in Gen Con, there's no way around it. But I am not blind, they should also think about all the angry backers and try some form of compensation, even a small one, just a token of gratitude...
Isn't that what the vote is? What more could anyone want than the ability to alter a decision they disagree with?
Offering more than that is akin to offering compensation to those that voted for a political party that didn't secure enough votes to attain position.
popscythe wrote:This is not a tense situation. This is four people having a tanrum in public who need their soap box privileges removed. Palladium has repeatedly addressed the "concerns" your group has voiced and you have repeatedly proven that you are not interested in anything other than pitching a fit.
Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.
Ninjabunny wrote:You are playing to have fun and be a part of a story,no one is aiming to "beat" the GM, nor should any GM be looking to beat his players.
Marrowlight wrote: The Shameless Plug would be a good new account name for you.
ALAshbaugh wrote:Because DINOSAURS.
If we were to leave that product at our warehouse instead of taking it to Gen Con, not one single Kickstarter backer would get his or her rewards any sooner.
We are not selling any Kickstarter exclusives, just the basic items listed above.
You, our Kickstarter backers, are still getting special rewards for your funding, including those same retail products at below retail prices, plus Kickstarter exclusives that nobody else will ever get, and add-ons that won’t hit retail stores for some time to come.
We know how frustrated and upset you feel about everything. We feel the same, many times over.!
We will begin shipping Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to Kickstarter backers before we leave for Gen Con Indy.
In the end, you, our Kickstarter supporters, will be the first to receive a wonderful product that we hope will make you grin and provide endless hours of enjoyment.